"Democratic Socialist" an Oxymoron?

[mikewrona]

Mike; seeing your Litany made me think of a quip a lawyer friend (a litigator) says from time to time; "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!"

Its a shame you wont debate the issue in a focused manner. Perhaps you consider my postulates as too simplistic. And I admit I ascribe to simple truths; there is no ying in yang or up in down; all extremes exist to describe and create the opposite. The examples you posted only serve to show the continuum between the the two opposite nodes. My point in starting this conversation was to parse what is to me a conundrum. Ie, you cant be "a little bit pregnant."

Ultimately, I suspect that Democratic Socialists are at their core socialists who are willing to 'work within' the current democratic system to achieve an end, but that end will have very little to do with tenets of American Democracy (meaning a fundamental belief in and recognition of personal liberty, individualism, and private property) in the end. Capeche?

That was no litany. That was an example of the myriads of political philosophies that exist. You want to believe that Socialists want to have the government own business. How can I tell you that is not true if you won't believe me that it is not true.

What's to discuss when you want to talk about "inputs" and "outputs" as if government is some type of business.

You inspite of what you consider to be intelligence fail to see a difference between Canada, China, and North Korea. Please don't condemn me becasue you are hard headed to accept the fact that between the left arm and the right arm you find the body.

And while you may speak of the tenets of American Democracy, you at first claimed not to know what "Democratically" means. Does that mean you also don't know what Democracy means. Particularly since so many of your supporters on this blog have frequently claimed we are not a Democracty but a Republic.

I suspect you will be one of those all or nothing politicians who accomplishes nothing because compromise makes no sense in a world of absolutes.

[BigGuy]

I am confused by this phrase. MikeWrona identifies himself on another thread as being one. Maybe my confusion lies in the fact that I am sort of black and white in my thinking when it comes to theories of global political science, but to me this idealogy sounds a lot like being "a little bit pregnant".

I am not a student of economics or geopolitics, but my rudimentary understanding of American democracy is that it fundamentally recognizes and protects personal liberty, private property, and freedom of choice and selection of governance. The Founding Fathers also recognized a Public Benefit in protecting the general health and welfare of the populace.

An alternative to democracy (including our representative democracy) is communism and its corollary of socialism. Again, my basic understanding is that these precepts are antithetical to the foundational tenets of democracy. Does not socialism subjugate the individual to the collective and strive toward the common control and ownership of the 'means of production'?

Are not Democratic Socialists really not striving toward a utopian ideal of plain old socialism, either through evolution or revolution? Isnt the cloak of Democracy, just a 'means to an end'?

I often wonder how many of today's unionites recognize the socialistic themes and rhetoric they have been indoctrinated with in the guise of 'empowering' them to achieve the materialistic American Dream of middle class success? I wonder how many unionites would be as enthralled with the "union label" if they also saw the themes of socialism which drive that engine and recognized that pure socialism is in fact working against their middle class ideals.

You also have to remember that our "Founding Fathers" wore tights and pretty powdered wigs in public.

[WNYresident]

You also have to remember that our "Founding Fathers" wore tights and pretty powdered wigs in public.

And you have a problem with that?

[BigGuy]

Explains a lot, doesn't it?

[WNYresident]

Don't worry.. you won't catch me in a wig and tights believe me.

[Batman]

I wear tights with boots...don't need a wig though...

[TheRightView]

It all sounds good and just but there's one problem. It kills incentive and ambition. Why would anyone invest sweat and capital into a venture if their profits are to be seized by the government to redistribute more "fairly". More importantly, what is so just and right about people gaining from someone elses work?

There goes trying to be more christian...why care about anybody else but yourself? Why give when you can take....it's like Ebenezer Scrouge said(but i'm paraphrasing) let those without die off and decrease the surplus population. This is a truly sad thing if you believe that way.

[TheRightView]

Mike; seeing your Litany made me think of a quip a lawyer friend (a litigator) says from time to time; "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!"

Its a shame you wont debate the issue in a focused manner. Perhaps you consider my postulates as too simplistic. And I admit I ascribe to simple truths; there is no ying in yang or up in down; all extremes exist to describe and create the opposite. The examples you posted only serve to show the continuum between the the two opposite nodes. My point in starting this conversation was to parse what is to me a conundrum. Ie, you cant be "a little bit pregnant."

Ultimately, I suspect that Democratic Socialists are at their core socialists who are willing to 'work within' the current democratic system to achieve an end, but that end will have very little to do with tenets of American Democracy (meaning a fundamental belief in and recognition of personal liberty, individualism, and private property) in the end. Capeche?

So what would a Reagan democrat be? A democrat who really is a republican at heart but will stay registered as a democrat but vote republican? That's pretty black and white wouldn't you say.

Or the republicans saying that they are the only ones who do God's work and hold His words close to their heart but then make sure that the poor get nothing and the rich get tax cuts. I'd say that is inconsistent with what God says but they are using it to achieve their end and has little to do with God.

[CindyLocklear]

You also have to remember that our "Founding Fathers" wore tights and pretty powdered wigs in public.

From this one could assume you believe that their work (you know the Constitution/Bill of Rights) was flawed or anachronistic?

[CindyLocklear]

There goes trying to be more christian...why care about anybody else but yourself? Why give when you can take....it's like Ebenezer Scrouge said(but i'm paraphrasing) let those without die off and decrease the surplus population. This is a truly sad thing if you believe that way.

Ever hear of volunteerism, charity, etc? The concept of caring for the less fortunate as an act of individual altruism is not precluded in a NONSOCIALIST system, whether it is a governance or an economic system; the point that charity and volunteerism can be given VOLUNTARILY and not grabbed INVOLUNTARILY by the government and then distributed by how the government sees fit is the issue.

[Batman]

There goes trying to be more christian...why care about anybody else but yourself? Why give when you can take....it's like Ebenezer Scrouge said(but i'm paraphrasing) let those without die off and decrease the surplus population. This is a truly sad thing if you believe that way.
That's a real stretch. Did not free market economics lift tons of people out of poverty and provide opportunity and employment for millions upon millions of people? What did Jesus say about teaching a man to fish?

[LHardy]

Those who believe in socialism as an answer to the woes of the poor, rarely practice such things in their private lives. They prefer to be removed from contact with those in need and pay someone to do the job. Pay which is derived from the taking of money from those who have earned for themselves.

I have done more for the poor and indigent in the last year out of my pocket, in addition to my taxes, then that which my liberal friends have done in ten.

Taxes are punishment for success and the currant welfare system is a reward for failure and sloth.

[Batman]

Taxes are punishment for success and the currant welfare system is a reward for failure and sloth
It also becomes a trap for those in the system.

[mikewrona]

Those who believe in socialism as an answer to the woes of the poor, rarely practice such things in their private lives. They prefer to be removed from contact with those in need and pay someone to do the job. Pay which is derived from the taking of money from those who have earned for themselves.

I have done more for the poor and indigent in the last year out of my pocket, in addition to my taxes, then that which my liberal friends have done in ten.

Taxes are punishment for success and the currant welfare system is a reward for failure and sloth.

It's not considered charity when you contribute to the NRA and the Minutement.

[LHardy]

It's not considered charity when you contribute to the NRA and the Minutement.

Another shining example of socialist attitude.
No guns or defense for anyone except the government and criminals.

You where born into or moved into the wrong country mike.
You may find North Korea or Cuba more to your liking. They are about the only two countries left that are not turning towards capitalism.

Show me a shining example of a socialist country that is doing well for itself and ALL of its' citizenry.