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Thread: Buffalo Bills Football Stadium location

  1. #76
    Member cheekman's Avatar
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    Erie County voters split on who should pay for new stadium .. thats funny
    I love these polls,again we are looking at 500 people that took the survey.. I think if you ask say 2000 people in the area it wont be that way. Most everyone I talk to dont want tax money going into pegula place. The czar dont want it higgins wants the taxpers to chip in. read the end of the article .
    Erie County voters find themselves split over whether they should bear part of the cost burden for a new stadium for the Buffalo Bills.

    In a random scientific poll that showed a clear majority favoring a new facility and a downtown location for it, some 48 percent of voters polled said taxpayers should pay some of the costs for the Bills’ new home. That’s exactly the same percentage of people who said the public should pay none of the costs.

    None of the 505 voters surveyed between Jan. 20 and 21 said the public should pay the total cost of a new football palace, which is expected to cost upward of $1 billion. And only 1 percent said the public should pay most of the costs.

    “Clearly there is a reluctance among many voters to even paying some of the costs, much less paying most or all,” said Donald P. Levy, director of the Siena Research Institute, which conducted the poll for The Buffalo News and WGRZ-TV.

    While voters were split over paying for a new stadium, they favored building the facility by an 18 point margin – and they favored building it in downtown rather than Orchard Park by 15 points.

    But that reluctance to pay for a new stadium is nothing unique to Erie County voters, said Jason A. Winfree, an assistant professor of economics at the University of Idaho and the author of a book chapter called “NFL Franchise Values, Locations and Stadium Economics.”

    Told of the survey’s split over paying for the stadium, Winfree said: “That’s not too surprising. I think the public is a little less likely to want to give money to these stadium projects than they were 20 years ago.”

    In fact, Winfree said, that reluctance may be one of the reasons taxpayers have been paying a declining share of the costs for new NFL stadiums in recent years. Since the NFL established a loan program in 2001 to help teams pay for new facilities, the amount of money that teams have contributed to those stadiums has multiplied sixfold, while the amount paid by taxpayers has essentially held steady.

    Still, that means that taxpayers have contributed an average of $233 million to each of the new NFL stadiums built since the loan program was established, according to data compiled by Vanderbilt University economist John Vrooman.

    In other words, if a new stadium is built, public money – most likely coming from Erie County and the state – is likely to cover some of the costs.Given that the state and county just dumped $130 million into the latest renovation of Ralph Wilson Stadium in Orchard Park, Erie County Executive Mark C. Poloncarz and Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo have expressed skepticism about investing more money into a new facility.

    Poloncarz said he is not surprised that so many voters said they opposed using public money in that way. “I think if you had actually quantified what the public investment might be, the higher that number gets, the lower the support is,” Poloncarz said.

    Reiterating his vow not to cut libraries, parks and other key services to help pay for a stadium, Poloncarz said: “This has to make sense for the team, but more importantly, it has to make sense for the community.”The public share of stadium costs increasingly goes toward those sorts of infrastructure improvements rather than to stadium construction, but Higgins said voters may not recognize that fact.

    “What they’re responding to is the traditional way of funding stadiums,” he said.
    Timothy Yeates, 53, of Buffalo, said he and a lot of people oppose public funding for a simple reason.

    Noting that Buffalo remains one of the poorest cities in the country, he said: “We should be giving people a hand up instead of handing out a lot of money to billionaires.”

    Then again, Yeates said he doesn’t expect the Bills’ new owners, Terry and Kim Pegula, to come to the community looking for a handout, given that the Jacobs family, which runs Delaware North, has expressed a desire to be involved in helping build a new stadium.

    “The Pegulas and the Jacobses are going to step up and be the heroes and take the burden off the taxpayers,” he predicted. So the two heroes the same two that asked for tax breaks on HC 37 mil for money bags and jacobes on his new building or said if he dont get the break he will look to move thc company offices.. NOW they are heroes..
    wake up people these people are business people looking to make money and more of it.. so if they want the new stadiom let them buy it.
    God must love stupid people; He made so many

  2. #77
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheekman View Post
    Most everyone I talk to dont want tax money going into pegula place.
    That's because the people you know and talk to say things like 'most everyone dont want'....and you really don't engage with the other half.

  3. #78
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    That's because the people you know and talk to say things like 'most everyone dont want'....and you really don't engage with the other half.

    Wisdom strikes again.

    Same goes for polls on Foxnews versus MSNBC or CNN.

    Different groups of viewers watch each station. Any poll they do will be swayed by the viewing audience.. In Cheekman's instant who ever is sitting across from him at the doughnut shop.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    A new stadium will be built in the location (of those being focused upon) that produces the most revenue FOR THE BUFFALO BILLS - a factor no one seems to consider in all of the debates. Pegula is probably just waiting for his consultants to tell him which of the avialble locations will be the most profitable, then he'll come out in favor of that site for a host of reasons other than the profit factor. but you can bet that projected profits will rule the decision for the Bills.

    An I'll bet a big consideration will be the anticipated marketing to potential super suit purchasers. The typical season ticket holder and single ticket purchasers will go wherever the stadium is located. They probably won't be a big factor in the final decision.

    I'll bet the largest potential super suit owners purchasers have already been surveyed as to locations they perceive as the most attractive to them.

    The truth is that the best chance of keeping the Bills in Buffalo is to build the stadium in the location that maximizes profit for the Bills.
    I don't blame Pegula for catering to the super suit owners. I have a super suit, it's navy blue and double breasted...everyone who sees me in it thinks I look great. I should get special consideration because of this super suit.

  5. #80
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grump View Post
    I don't blame Pegula for catering to the super suit owners. I have a super suit, it's navy blue and double breasted...everyone who sees me in it thinks I look great. I should get special consideration because of this super suit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2qRDMHbXaM

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Any poll they do will be swayed by the viewing audience.. In Cheekman's instant who ever is sitting across from him at the doughnut shop.
    I think the key is that they said it's a "scientific poll". Usually that means it follows certain standards for data collection. But we'd probably have to read more on how they collected the data to be sure.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linda_D View Post
    It's NO accident that the few privately built stadiums around the country, like Dallas and Foxboro, are part of large scale retail/entertainment developments also built by the stadium owners. In those cases, the surrounding development was planned specifically to provide a revenue other than the stadium as well as often make it easier for the developers to overcome local opposition to development. BTW, those kinds of stadium complexes are almost always built away from downtown areas.

    There are several examples of spin off development that happens with stadiums that are not associated with the team owner. The two best examples I can think of are baseball stadiums. AT&T Park in SF and Petco Park in San Diego. Both of these locations were either run down in the city grid or industrial sites. For some reason, baseball has found a love for building urban stadiums whereas the NFL seems to be split. For every Lucas Oil Stadium or TCF Bank Stadium there is a AT&T Stadium or MetLife Stadium.


    My point is for every failure people like can point out...I can point out examples of success. At the end of the day there are so many variables that impact spin off development. The biggest ones for me are the amount of land nearby that is even able to be redeveloped and the real estate market itself. I think Buffalo has a pretty good mix of options and opportunity for the stadium project but does not have a sure shot real estate market. But it's also Buffalo and no city has a better record of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

    An example of this opportunity is the Perry Projects site. While this was my personal preference for the stadium, it obviously was not considered at all. Still, it's a massive parcel that does have plan in place to redevelop...and my hope is that James Pitts does not find a way to screw it up.

    The biggest challenge for spin off development is the Buffalo real estate market. There are reports out there that make things sound fantastic but you and I both know it's still pretty anemic. So while I don't see condos going up overnight like San Diego and San Fran, I do think that it will push projects that are already in the works over the edge and eventually help spin off.

  8. #83
    Member cheekman's Avatar
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    hmmm.. second location and people bitching. about Pegula Palace.. Talk of South Park stadium site stirs hornet’s nest for neighbors

    Not surprisingly, you’ll hear a lot of not-in-my-backyard, or NIMBY, sentiments from both public housing advocates and those who would like the Old First Ward to remain, well, old.

    Even though the state stadium study does not include a call for demolition of any homes, residents fear that the ominous red “D” on the state’s stadium map – which stands for potential development sites – really spells death to their neighborhoods.

    “When folks come to take your homes, whether you’re black or white, middle class or poor people, you’re all in the same boat,” said Sam Smith, chairman of a residents’ council representing city housing tenants. “They always choose the path of least resistance. We’re all looked at as something that’s in the way of so-called progress.”

    Several sources said that opinion of the possible stadium site is much more mixed in the Old First Ward, with many thinking the facility would be a boon to the neighborhood.

    But then there are loud voices such as that of Julie Cleary, who lives on Hamburg Street in the ward, a few blocks east and south of the proposed site.

    ‘A loss of our homes’

    “It would mean a loss of our homes, our neighbors and our church, which is most important to all of us,” said Cleary, a key player in defeating the proposed move of the Buffalo Zoo to the riverfront many years ago.

    “It would be the end of our way of life.”

    Truth be told, though, that’s not what the stadium site map spells out.

    now Cuomo on the stadium.
    ALBANY – A decision on whether and where to build a new stadium for the Buffalo Bills is not “imminent,’’ Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo said Tuesday in Buffalo.

    After a state-funded report that the administration commissioned was released last month identifying possible sites for a new stadium, Cuomo signaled to reporters that resolution of the stadium issue is far from a burning issue for his administration.

    “I’m not at a point where I have a preference ... I think the location question is premature,’’ Cuomo said.

    It is uncertain whether Cuomo’s comments were a reflection of the state’s hesitation to engage in a process – with state budget talks getting under way – that will likely include some level of taxpayer assistance for a stadium project, or if team owners Terry and Kim Pegula have sent any indications to the state that they have no interest yet in moving forward with the process.

    A study by a Los Angeles firm commissioned by Cuomo’s economic development agency “short-listed” three possible sites near downtown Buffalo for a new stadium. The report also considered building a new stadium on the grounds of the existing Ralph Wilson Stadium in Orchard Park, as well as a major renovation of that facility. Depending on the stadium design, location, ancillary development and infrastructure improvements needed, the study said it could cost around $1 billion for a new stadium.
    Last edited by cheekman; February 6th, 2015 at 12:23 AM.
    God must love stupid people; He made so many

  9. #84
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    Not surprisingly, you’ll hear a lot of not-in-my-backyard, or NIMBY, sentiments from both public housing advocates and those who would like the Old First Ward to remain, well, old.
    I think not wanting a giant football stadium and everything that goes along with it in your backyard, is a perfectly valid NIMBY concern.

  10. #85
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    Before I get to your point, this is the 2nd post by the News regarding the sites. If it's a series...that's one thing but it's not marked as one. It almost feels as if they are trying to eliminate the sites not in the Cobblestone.

    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    I think not wanting a giant football stadium and everything that goes along with it in your backyard, is a perfectly valid NIMBY concern.

    This is interesting and if someone has this I would say to them they have a bit of a naive opinion.

    First off, their 'backyard' already has giant grain elevators and industrial sites and all that comes along with those in their backyard. It's not like they are dropping the stadium in the middle of a subdivision. A new stadium would be much cleaner than what exists there and it would

    Secondly, a new stadium would lead to massive infrastructure improvements. This leads to higher home values. Something the entire 1st ward could benefit from.

  11. #86
    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Before I get to your point, this is the 2nd post by the News regarding the sites. If it's a series...that's one thing but it's not marked as one. It almost feels as if they are trying to eliminate the sites not in the Cobblestone.




    This is interesting and if someone has this I would say to them they have a bit of a naive opinion.

    First off, their 'backyard' already has giant grain elevators and industrial sites and all that comes along with those in their backyard. It's not like they are dropping the stadium in the middle of a subdivision. A new stadium would be much cleaner than what exists there and it would

    Secondly, a new stadium would lead to massive infrastructure improvements. This leads to higher home values. Something the entire 1st ward could benefit from.
    All irrelevant. A new stadium gets built where Pegula's advisers tell him it will produce the most profit for the Bills. Negative or positive impacts on the area will be a secondary concern if a concern at all. Even if Pegula wanted to go romantic and put the stadium in downtown, he has to deal with his "business partners" - the other 31 owners in the NFL - who are in it for the profits. If they don't think a downtown stadium in Buffalo is the best financial decision then it won't be built in downtown Buffalo.

  12. #87
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    First off, their 'backyard' already has giant grain elevators and industrial sites and all that comes along with those in their backyard. It's not like they are dropping the stadium in the middle of a subdivision. A new stadium would be much cleaner than what exists there and it would
    Cleaner yes but the above examples you stated do not produce 25,000+ vehicles that each football game would produce. I'm not saying 25,000 driving past someone's home is a bad or good thing.



    Secondly, a new stadium would lead to massive infrastructure improvements. This leads to higher home values. Something the entire 1st ward could benefit from.
    How does the value of your home going up actually benefit a home owner who doesn't want to flip their house for a profit? Let say you love your home and yard. You plan to live the rest of your life in that home. The higher the value the higher your cost of living is because your property taxes rise.

  13. #88
    Member cheekman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    All irrelevant. A new stadium gets built where Pegula's advisers tell him it will produce the most profit for the Bills. Negative or positive impacts on the area will be a secondary concern if a concern at all. Even if Pegula wanted to go romantic and put the stadium in downtown, he has to deal with his "business partners" - the other 31 owners in the NFL - who are in it for the profits. If they don't think a downtown stadium in Buffalo is the best financial decision then it won't be built in downtown Buffalo.
    Right on its all about $$$..
    God must love stupid people; He made so many

  14. #89
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    Very good article by a taxpayer in the news the other day.








    Don’t offer tax breaks for stadium projects

    The Marcy 19 News article, “Proposal to end stadium bonds not likely to succeed,” was very disturbing. President Obama proposed including a provision in the 2016 budget that would bar the use of tax-exempt bond financing for new stadium projects.

    I am deeply disappointed in our local representatives who would not support this provision because “it would limit … options for building a new stadium for the Bills.” The rationale being that it would then take more state and local tax dollars to build it.

    This is nonsense. First of all, we have a perfectly good stadium and no need to build a new one. Secondly, instead of refusing to support the provision, they could encourage our state legislators to vote to end tax help for builders of stadiums and other projects currently receiving subsidies for millionaires and billionaires, when those of modest means get no help at all.

    I think the real issue is that if they support ending tax help for these projects, our legislators will no longer receive huge contributions for their election campaigns.

    Isn’t it about time they looked out for the pockets of all their constituents, not just the super-rich? It is time for the rest of us to get involved and demand changes in policies.
    God must love stupid people; He made so many

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