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Thread: Buffalo Bills Football Stadium location

  1. #46
    Member HipKat's Avatar
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    Really?? The businesses on Chippewa, Delaware, Pearl St., Franklin, The Casino, Seneca, S. Park, etc are all getting torn down?? Sounds like it's going to hold more than 65,000 people. BTW, how many people does the First Niagara Center hold? Ever been downtown after a game there? A concert?? All those bars and restaurants are walk-able, in a cityscape setting. Where do you walk to after a Bills game in OP? I remember when Jr Hockey played in Buffalo. The streets were like mardi gras. And that was in winter. Every venue was packed each night of the tournament. Don't even think that events at a downtown stadium aren't worth the increase in revenue on those nights. Sorry if the Big Tree loses money. Sorry if the residents on California lose money on the cash cow they get letting people park in their yards.The place has been riding the Bills coattails for long enough.

    Do you even get how business works?? The idea is for people to visit these establishments on game nights and then want to come back on off nights. How does Big Tree do on the rest of the week?? Or after the season ends?

    What's your real issue, NG? You live in OP, afraid of downtown Buffalo or both?
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  2. #47
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    1. It is foolish to think that a smaller stadium in downtown buffalo is going to support 10 times the number of bars and restaurants as an 80,000 seat stadium now supports in OP. Ain't gonna happen.

    2. Most of the existing bars and restaurants in that area are going to be torn down to build the stadium, so they ain't going to benefit anyway.
    1. Hipkat didn't say that the stadium downtown will support 10 times the numbers of bars and restaurants. He said there is more of a selection of bars/restaurants downtown compared OP. A new football stadium will not produce "more" business for restaurants/bars compared to the current one. We'll maybe. If people can't tail gate and drink/eat around the new stadium they may go to bars/restaurants around the new stadium. I could see that being more costly for people compared to packing your own stuff to tail gate with. Plus I don't think the atmosphere for the game would be the same without tailgating seeing so many people do that.

  3. #48
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    1. It is foolish to think that a smaller stadium in downtown buffalo is going to support 10 times the number of bars and restaurants as an 80,000 seat stadium now supports in OP. Ain't gonna happen.
    You can't be this much of an idiot... You're wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    2. Most of the existing bars and restaurants in that area are going to be torn down to build the stadium, so they ain't going to benefit anyway.
    You're wrong here as well.

  4. #49
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    OP is my vote.. keep it out of the city because the environmental movement will .. hearing more of this it they decided it goes in the city.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheekman View Post
    OP is my vote.. keep it out of the city because the environmental movement will .. hearing more of this it they decided it goes in the city.
    Your 'vote' is recorded.

  6. #51
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    Keep in mind that for the most part a single use football stadium is busy only 8 days a year unless there are playoffs etc.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    Keep in mind that for the most part a single use football stadium is busy only 8 days a year unless there are playoffs etc.
    Can you point out any NFL stadium that is only used for just NFL games?

    Even Green Bay has a large concert but one of the challenges for some venues like Lambeau Field is the turf that's used. They use natural grass and it's difficult to do a lot of events on grass. A artificial turf would not pose the same issues.


    The stadium report suggests a total of 57 events a year for a dome and 25 events a year for an open air stadium. From the study they list the 57 events as:

    2 Bills Preseason games
    8 Bills Regular season games
    2 Major Concerts - 40k each
    3 Minor Concerts - 7,500 each
    15 Meetings - 150 each
    12 Conventions - Trade Shows - 3,000 each
    15 Community Events - 5,000 each

    57 events - 825,750 total

    Some thoughts:

    Interesting they factor in conventions/trade shows. Trouble for the convention center regardless of if a new one is built.

    Darien Lake seats 21k and I am not sure if they would try to takes events from that venue. You would possibly lose the Rochester attendance but you could pick up So. Ontario and Erie PA.

    They don't factor in UB games at all. I could see maybe one of the cupcake games being played here. For example, UB just hosted Baylor.

    They don't factor in HS games. I could see several weekends where they played 3 games in a row at the stadium, similar to how they do the playoffs in Syracuse. Catholics 1 week. Publics another 2 or 3?

  8. #53
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    I was referring to what is basically played in OP.

    You can count on the main football games being played in the new stadium. You can't be wishful and say we are going to have concerts and other events until they actually happen. If those other events are taken away from other local venues you really are not gaining anything. All you are doing is changing where the event took place locally. What you want to do is gain more events in the area not just move the venue around.

  9. #54
    Member HipKat's Avatar
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    Darien Lake would lose some of it's bigger draws, but a lot of the bands that play at DL can't fill 65000 seats. Also is the cost. When I was booking bands, I wanted to know what it took to book (then) Rich Stadium so I did a lot of research. It's a million dollars and that was in 2003, not including the insurance or the bands' take. That million covers the Stadium and it's amenities. You still have to hire security, do marketing, tickets, etc.My reference was Eddie Tice, former partner of promoters Harvey, Corkey and Tice, whom I got to know when he was manager at Lancaster Speedway/Dunn Tire Raceway or whatever it's called now. Which is why Stadium Shows have the highest ticket prices. Darien lake is a fraction of that. Some bands and may fans prefer the intimacy, if you can call it that, of a medium sized -15.000-25,000- seat venue, too.

    Also, the festivals at Darien Lake area far superior experience than would be at a stadium, especially one downtown, where there is no real room to roam around, have multiple stages a la Warped Tour, plus vendors, although it has been done at other venues. But those venues may not have had a place like DL as an alternative option.

    I'd bet it's closer to a million.five now. Not bad IF you can fill it. 60,000 fans at an 85.00 per ticket price is over 5 million gross. You'd still have to pay the bands, and there'd be at least 3. The Headliner would get, probably a half million plus a percentage of merchandise (The Dead were getting 250,000 a show in the early 2000's).
    Last edited by HipKat; January 21st, 2015 at 02:20 PM.
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  10. #55
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    I was referring to what is basically played in OP.

    You can't reasonably compare events in OP to a downtown stadium. There are simply too many differences.

    Just using hotels as an example. In OP the closest hotels are:

    'Walking Distance'
    Red Carpet Inn
    Twin Oak Motel

    Short Drive
    Econo Lodge South
    Stadium View Inn

    Long Drive - Downtown


    Not having hotel options greatly reduces the types of events you can have and the type of attendees you can have. For example, many stadiums are used for NYE events. Do you expect people dressed to the 9s to stay at the Red Carpet Inn on NYE? Or are you expecting them to take a cab to downtown or even home. Because you sure as hell don't want them driving and driving. By the way, alcohol sales greatly impact event options.

  11. #56
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    I was talking minimums. We know for a fact a football stadium will at least have the 8 home games.

    The events you can solidly count on. I don't like to talk "possible economic dollars" because if every dollar was created that past projects promised our streets were be lined in gold by now.

  12. #57
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    [QUOTE=cheekman;1492949]OP is my vote.. keep it out of the city because the environmental movement will .. hearing more of this it they decided it goes in the city.[/QUOTE

    Not only that movement but any Historic value that is decided on for the stadium in the city would be stopped or tied up in court for years. Preservation Buffalo Niagara (PBN) is dedicated to fostering historic preservation. My vote Orchard Park right where it belongs.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by buffy View Post
    Why do you keep repeating that? "Single use" is old thinking. Stadiums now have added museums, historical displays and halls of fame that along with restaurants, event spaces, educational exhibits, pro shops and stadium tours have helped turn their stadiums into magnets for fans all year long.

    From the NY Times...


    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/ar...eums.html?_r=0
    How many museums in the US actually support themselves on their attendance? The answer is probably closer to 1 than 100, and I'm talking major national museums, NOT your local historical society museum, too. Museums are NOT money making ventures, and virtually all are dependent on public monies, gifts, endowments, memberships, etc.
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  14. #59
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    Can you point out any NFL stadium that is only used for just NFL games?

    Even Green Bay has a large concert but one of the challenges for some venues like Lambeau Field is the turf that's used. They use natural grass and it's difficult to do a lot of events on grass. A artificial turf would not pose the same issues.


    The stadium report suggests a total of 57 events a year for a dome and 25 events a year for an open air stadium. From the study they list the 57 events as:

    2 Bills Preseason games
    8 Bills Regular season games
    2 Major Concerts - 40k each
    3 Minor Concerts - 7,500 each
    15 Meetings - 150 each
    12 Conventions - Trade Shows - 3,000 each
    15 Community Events - 5,000 each

    57 events - 825,750 total

    Some thoughts:

    Interesting they factor in conventions/trade shows. Trouble for the convention center regardless of if a new one is built.

    Darien Lake seats 21k and I am not sure if they would try to takes events from that venue. You would possibly lose the Rochester attendance but you could pick up So. Ontario and Erie PA.

    They don't factor in UB games at all. I could see maybe one of the cupcake games being played here. For example, UB just hosted Baylor.

    They don't factor in HS games. I could see several weekends where they played 3 games in a row at the stadium, similar to how they do the playoffs in Syracuse. Catholics 1 week. Publics another 2 or 3?
    "2 Major Concerts - 40k each" : How often does Garth Brooks come out of "retirement"? Big stadium acts are a rarity these days, NOT just in Buffalo, but everywhere.

    Are you serious that you think these would be feasible in a 65,000 seat venue? Except for the "3 minor concerts", these events are NOT even feasible for the FNC because it costs big $$$ to open/operate event venues, so to make the rental costs reasonable, it's go big or don't go there at all.
    3 Minor Concerts - 7,500 each
    15 Meetings - 150 each
    12 Conventions - Trade Shows - 3,000 each
    15 Community Events - 5,000 each


    You're grasping at straws here, Lefty. There are NOT enough events requiring a stadium sized site to make a stadium truly useful for anything except football or baseball games. Even your figures show that: assuming a stadium has 65000 seats, and has the equivalent of 9 sell outs from 10 football games in a season, that's 585,000 in attendance or 71% of your projected attendance. Those 10 football games are less than 18% of the scheduled events. Some of your events are best held in hotel meeting rooms than in a huge stadium.

    HS football teams already play regional championship games at the Ralph, which are big deals for the teams and the communities involved. For other HS games, why would teams being willing to give up home field advantage and incur additional transportation costs to get there?

    In fact, all of the events that you've mentioned already have homes around WNY already, and NOT just in the convention center.
    Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes

  15. #60
    Member Linda_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    I was referring to what is basically played in OP.

    You can count on the main football games being played in the new stadium. You can't be wishful and say we are going to have concerts and other events until they actually happen. If those other events are taken away from other local venues you really are not gaining anything. All you are doing is changing where the event took place locally. What you want to do is gain more events in the area not just move the venue around.
    Exactly this. All these "economic development" promises are just so much BS shoveled by stadium developers, who, along with the team owners, are the only ones who stand to profit from it. You build a football stadium because you want to keep your team. It's the only reason to do so because there's NO real "economic benefit" from a new stadium because there are NOT enough events that require a venue that big ... and again, that's NOT just Buffalo, it's all over the country.

    It's NO accident that the few privately built stadiums around the country, like Dallas and Foxboro, are part of large scale retail/entertainment developments also built by the stadium owners. In those cases, the surrounding development was planned specifically to provide a revenue other than the stadium as well as often make it easier for the developers to overcome local opposition to development. BTW, those kinds of stadium complexes are almost always built away from downtown areas.
    Your right to buy a military weapon without hindrance, delay or training cannot trump Daniel Barden’s right to see his eighth birthday. -- Jim Himes

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