Second-Generation Americans Against Refugees

[WNYresident]

Lefty
So when will your efforts start? Do you need some contacts?

You asking the question about what Clarence has to do with it makes my point pretty clear. People are all about drug treatment over incarceration until the clinic opens up next door. People are all about helping immigrant children until their kids classroom has to accommodate these children.

I'm sure the Clarence school district will have a thriving music and arts program with the influx of children who don't even speak English, let alone, even know the basics of how to actually learn in a school setting.

I look forward to you setting up this program.

Come on Alan.

Go to the next Clarence board meeting and ask for some funding to start busing people who have crossed illegally into the USA to Clarence. You can sell the town board on the idea on how it will boost the Clarence economy.

I'll even print you some Welcome Banners for free!

La ciudad de Clarence
Acoge con satisfacción los extranjeros ilegales
Contacto Alan Bedenko

I used google translate. I don't know if it's accurate or in one of the main languages of the people crossing the border illegally.

[WNYresident]

I insult people who insult me. Especially when they accuse me of horrible things, but are too stupid to string together a few coherent, well-considered, correctly spelled sentences.

What, precisely, would you have me right about?

Who wrote this Alan?

[buffalopundit]

Not at all. I was just pointing out that it's silly to suggest that the border is secure. Frankly, the border is never going to be 'secure' and it's a waste of money to try and make it so.

Personally, I am sick of attending going away parties of software and chemical engineers who speak multiple languages and have a far more advanced education than I will ever have only to pass a la raza rally on the way home speaking to bending/breaking the rules that others follow. As someone who, dare I say despises, the Tea Party..I would think you would be opposed to the notion that many times the loudest voices are not the ones that should be listed to.

I am all for 'open borders' and continuing the path of growing this nation in every direction by way of a melting pot. All should be welcome but there needs to be a line and there needs to be rules. It's as simple as that.

Okee dokee. So, you're essentially admitting that the whole "border security" thing is just this week's shiny object for the Obama-hating right wing. Agreed.

Now, I don't know why you'd be attending going away parties for educated professionals and scientists unless they're going back to their home countries where the living conditions of individual workers are better protected (family leave, vacation time, health coverage, etc.) Although our immigration system is antiquated and slow, it is, of course, set up to attract and keep precisely those types of people.

I haven't seen a lot of La Raza rallies in Buffalo and WNY, and I doubt you have, too. I will, for the sake of fun, point out the way in which our immigration system treats Cuban refugees (dry feet, you're in!) to Mexican refugees (get back where you came from!). We can pretend that the Cubans are coming here because of the political system, and I'm sure many of them are, but they're also fleeing a wildly dysfunctional economic system. You know what? The Mexicans, too, are fleeing a horrible economic, social, and political system yet the treatment is disproportionately harsher against them as compared with Cubans.

What we're technically talking about in this thread is the unusual influx of unaccompanied Central American minors. Under the law, we cannot deport them with the same ease with which we can deport Mexicans. Under a law that was passed to protect against human trafficking, these children must be detained until a hearing to determine whether they are victims of trafficking or they can be sent home. For all the bleating about the "rule of law" and ours being a "nation of laws" you guys are cafeteria-selecting the laws you want enforced. You somehow demand a magical border where there's an officer for every single person crossing, and that the crossing be prevented. We all know that there's no humanly way possible to prevent 100% of unlawful crossings, even if we wanted to. Hell, even when the Berlin Wall was in place 5,000 people managed to defeat it between 1961 - 1989.

So, if we agree that there is no reasonable way to prevent all unlawful crossings, we can agree that there isn't some Obama-led conspiracy to "weaken" the border, because there is no proof of that whatsoever. If we can also agree on the very existence of the statute - the fact - that these kids cannot be summarily deported, then we have to agree that we're stuck with the current scenario, as difficult as it is.

Your dismissive treatment of Spanish-speaking kids and their ability or willingness to contribute to their own betterment and the betterment to their adoptive homeland is distressing, but unfortunately something I've come to expect from right-wing nativists like you. I can't change your mind, so there's no point in trying. But spraying hatred at Spanish-speaking immigrants isn't going to do the Republican Party any favors, and as far as these kids fleeing violent, oppressive, and poverty-stricken homelands are concerned, you might want to take another look at the inscription on the Statute of Liberty and realize that the immigrants (regardless of status) of today are not at all dissimilar from the people who went through Ellis Island a century ago.

Have a great day!

[buffalopundit]

Who wrote this Alan?

I did. When you lectured me about what I should and should not write about.

[Save Us]

I will note for the record that not a single one of you answered or addressed this:



Of course you didn't, because you deflect by saying "derp, send 'em to Clarence". Right. As I said, it would be great. We could use the growth in enrollment - especially of poor kids - because it would improve the district's ability to secure federal and state funding for teachers and classrooms. Clarence welcomes hard-working, ambitious kids from other countries who seek an education and a better life. Maybe you guys can volunteer to give them room and board.

So, chances are that none of you have actually attempted to cross the Southern border, which is why you whine about how hard it is for grandmothers to get to bingo in Fort Erie while brown people stream into Texas unmolested. Forget that it's an apples vs. oranges comparison - you simply have no clue what you're talking about, except for what Limbaugh and Fox News spoon-feed you. (Spoiler alert: it is significantly more difficult and a much bigger hassle to cross from Mexico into the US on foot or by vehicle at any southern border crossing than it is to cross the Peace Bridge).

I'll also note that you people are supposedly really really concerned about government spending and the national debt and whatnot, yet you demand SECURE BORDERS, and when you are confronted with a simple question about what, exactly, you mean, you ignore it and attack me and where I live. That's because none of you are well-thought out enough to actually articulate a border protection strategy that would not cost billions of public dollars, not to mention federal benefits that would be really bad for "net taxpayers".

You guys are all outrage and no thought.

Ok, yes I have crossed and yes it was as it should have been.

1. What is the argument that there is not a problem on the border?
2. Or that no one has any ideas? Well obviously more personnel and materiel are needed. I am not a border agent so I cannot tell you what they need.

My point is that there is a problem.. obviously, There is a solution.. obviously, unless of course in your opinion that it is just untenable.


Again .. what is your argument/point?

My point is that we are broke and not one intelligent person seems to fit that little fact into the equation when we are talking about spending money we don't have. WE DON"T HAVE IT.. and neither will your children or grand children.

Personally I would send the NSA, Homeland security down there. and their black budget that is not tallied by the GAO. But for chrissake listen to the citizens down there that are asking for help! 50 million citizens on food assistance and we need more?

Everytime I hear we should send troops over there or aid over there, or rescue Nigerian girls.. etc etc. ALL I can say is we already pay 7 billion a week in interest for our debt...Just look at the trajectory of where we are going.. I mean what is the point of being American nowadays anyway.. we are country of Debt, and not ONE politician has the stones to tell the American people what has to be done. Firstly Stop spending so much.

[buffalopundit]

Come on Alan.

Go to the next Clarence board meeting and ask for some funding to start busing people who have crossed illegally into the USA to Clarence. You can sell the town board on the idea on how it will boost the Clarence economy.

I'll even print you some Welcome Banners for free!

La ciudad de Clarence
Acoge con satisfacción los extranjeros ilegales
Contacto Alan Bedenko

I used google translate. I don't know if it's accurate or in one of the main languages of the people crossing the border illegally.

That's of course not how it works, and these kids won't be attending Clarence schools because they're being held in detention. But I appreciate your deep concern for their well-being.

[buffalopundit]

Ok, yes I have crossed and yes it was as it should have been.

1. What is the argument that there is not a problem on the border?
2. Or that no one has any ideas? Well obviously more personnel and materiel are needed. I am not a border agent so I cannot tell you what they need.

My point is that too often people whine about the supposed difficulty of crossing the Peace Bridge and then compare it to someone illegally crossing a river in the middle of nowhere in the desert Southwest.

If we agree that there is a "problem" at the border; i.e., that there are ways for people to cross the border without declaring the entry to Customs & Border Protection, that's fine.

My point is that there is a problem.. obviously, There is a solution.. obviously, unless of course in your opinion that it is just untenable.

Again .. what is your argument/point?

My point is that we are broke and not one intelligent person seems to fit that little fact into the equation when we are talking about spending money we don't have. WE DON"T HAVE IT.. and neither will your children or grand children.

Personally I would send the NSA, Homeland security down there. and their black budget that is not tallied by the GAO. But for chrissake listen to the citizens down there that are asking for help! 50 million citizens on food assistance and we need more?

So, we should ignore every. single. other global threat to the United States because some Honduran tweens are crossing the Rio Grande and surrendering to the first Border Patrol agent they see? That seems silly.

[4248]

I insult people who insult me. Especially when they accuse me of horrible things, but are too stupid to string together a few coherent, well-considered, correctly spelled sentences.

He insults people then says he banned them for insulting him back - when my kids were two and three they acted the same way ! He attacks people on every level and cries - "They all pick on me - I didn't do anything and now I wont let you play any more"

This is a "forum" I don't control any part of it - I posted on your rag site because you posted my name - you don't like playing fair. You intrude on my family - your the Party Committee Rep - not me - I am no candidate. You try and hide behind the freedom of the press - yet you don't afford others equal protection.

You are a perfect example of how our fore fathers Democrat Committees have been taken over by entitlement party players. You slid in on the grease of the politicians - you live for and believe your so far above most of us - you ate my tax dollars - you tried to slander and disrupt my family - while yours enjoys the Party style life.

I don't care about your Artvoice - its a joke ! The art work is the only reason I look at or save any part of it. The rest is elitist trustafarians pretending to be otherwise. Good luck with all that. I show how you ban decenting opinion - that's the only reason I post there is because of you !

[buffalopundit]

He insults people then says he banned them for insulting him back - when my kids were two and three they acted the same way ! He attacks people on every level and cries - "They all pick on me - I didn't do anything and now I wont let you play any more"

This is a "forum" I don't control any part of it - I posted on your rag site because you posted my name - you don't like playing fair. You intrude on my family - your the Party Committee Rep - not me - I am no candidate. You try and hide behind the freedom of the press - yet you don't afford others equal protection.

Wrong. You lie. I posted your name because you link your Disqus account to your Facebook page, and you whine about public money and public employees while omitting the fact that you were one yourself. How convenient.

You are a perfect example of how our fore fathers Democrat Committees have been taken over by entitlement party players. You slid in on the grease of the politicians - you live for and believe your so far above most of us - you ate my tax dollars - you tried to slander and disrupt my family - while yours enjoys the Party style life.

I tried to "slander and disrupt your family" by posting your name? Are you drunk? Incidentally, the only party committee to which I belong is the Clarence Democratic Committee, and it's the smallest damn club in the world. Not exclusive - just small.

I don't care about your Artvoice - its a joke ! The art work is the only reason I look at or save any part of it. The rest is elitist trustafarians pretending to be otherwise. Good luck with all that. I show how you ban decenting opinion - that's the only reason I post there is because of you !

Not anymore.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Okee dokee. So, you're essentially admitting that the whole "border security" thing is just this week's shiny object for the Obama-hating right wing. Agreed.

Yes. I dislike the focus on border security because it moves the conversation away from what really should be discussed.

Now, I don't know why you'd be attending going away parties for educated professionals and scientists unless they're going back to their home countries where the living conditions of individual workers are better protected (family leave, vacation time, health coverage, etc.) Although our immigration system is antiquated and slow, it is, of course, set up to attract and keep precisely those types of people.

Nice deflection. These folks wanted to stay. Of course, you make an assumption as to where they came from AND make an inference on that assumption as to where they would want to live. It's pretty much a BS comment. I'll give you a pass.

I haven't seen a lot of La Raza rallies in Buffalo and WNY, and I doubt you have, too. I will, for the sake of fun, point out the way in which our immigration system treats Cuban refugees (dry feet, you're in!) to Mexican refugees (get back where you came from!). We can pretend that the Cubans are coming here because of the political system, and I'm sure many of them are, but they're also fleeing a wildly dysfunctional economic system. You know what? The Mexicans, too, are fleeing a horrible economic, social, and political system yet the treatment is disproportionately harsher against them as compared with Cubans.

I do not reside in WNY. I'm in California.

Again, I am not opposed to welcoming immigrants to the US regardless of where they came from. But you do make a nice point that immigration has been politicized and that is the root of the problem.

IMHO, the only way to remove politics from the issue is to have a set of rules that are followed by everyone...every. single. time.

What we're technically talking about in this thread is the unusual influx of unaccompanied Central American minors. Under the law, we cannot deport them with the same ease with which we can deport Mexicans. Under a law that was passed to protect against human trafficking, these children must be detained until a hearing to determine whether they are victims of trafficking or they can be sent home. For all the bleating about the "rule of law" and ours being a "nation of laws" you guys are cafeteria-selecting the laws you want enforced. You somehow demand a magical border where there's an officer for every single person crossing, and that the crossing be prevented. We all know that there's no humanly way possible to prevent 100% of unlawful crossings, even if we wanted to. Hell, even when the Berlin Wall was in place 5,000 people managed to defeat it between 1961 - 1989.

It's not unusual. It's not unexpected either.

You're also putting words into my mouth to try and make your point. I NEVER demanded or even suggested that 'there's an officer for every single person crossing, and that the crossing be prevented'...

In fact, I said the exact opposite. Since you usually like to talk in an echo chamber, here is my comment again:

Frankly, the border is never going to be 'secure' and it's a waste of money to try and make it so.

So, if we agree that there is no reasonable way to prevent all unlawful crossings, we can agree that there isn't some Obama-led conspiracy to "weaken" the border, because there is no proof of that whatsoever. If we can also agree on the very existence of the statute - the fact - that these kids cannot be summarily deported, then we have to agree that we're stuck with the current scenario, as difficult as it is.

We agree that there is not an Obama-led conspiracy to weaken the border. Were we may disagree is the efforts of groups like La Raza on this. One of their primary goals is to grow their power base. It would be ignorant to think that they would not do everything to move that agenda forward.

We agree on that these kids can not be summarily deported. We also agree that we are 'stuck' with a very difficult situation. Frankly, the only way out of this is transparency and a revision of the process to make it fair and easy to understand...for everyone.

Your dismissive treatment of Spanish-speaking kids and their ability or willingness to contribute to their own betterment and the betterment to their adoptive homeland is distressing, but unfortunately something I've come to expect from right-wing nativists like you. I can't change your mind, so there's no point in trying. But spraying hatred at Spanish-speaking immigrants isn't going to do the Republican Party any favors, and as far as these kids fleeing violent, oppressive, and poverty-stricken homelands are concerned, you might want to take another look at the inscription on the Statute of Liberty and realize that the immigrants (regardless of status) of today are not at all dissimilar from the people who went through Ellis Island a century ago.

First, it was not dismissive. It's a reality. Setting up a school with ESL students comes at a cost. Second, I said nothing about their willingness. Please stop trying to inject words into mine to frame your argument or perspective. What I did speak to is their ability, which again, is a reality.

In this engagement I have done everything to remain above the board. In return, you have implied that I am a 'Right-wing - Obama-hating - nativist - conspiracist' and your comments clearly show your true colors. You're a curmudgeon who likes to speak in an echo chamber. In typical fashion, you call my observations of facts hatred simply because you don't want to have an honest conversation about this.

Have a great day!

You the same.

[buffalopundit]

Yes. I dislike the focus on border security because it moves the conversation away from what really should be discussed.

Nice deflection. These folks wanted to stay. Of course, you make an assumption as to where they came from AND make an inference on that assumption as to where they would want to live. It's pretty much a BS comment. I'll give you a pass.

If they wanted to stay and could not, then you notice that there is a very urgent need for immigration law reform. There is exactly one reason why that hasn't happened in the last few years, and it is completely political in nature. Specifically, an unwillingness by Congressional Republicans to allow anything to happen that might be seen as a "win" for the President. Full stop.

IMHO, the only way to remove politics from the issue is to have a set of rules that are followed by everyone...every. single. time.

See above re: immigration reform.

I don't know from La Raza because I'm not in California, and also because Buffalo is a draw for refugees from places like Burma and Sudan, not Mexico. Buffalo doesn't have the problems of, e.g., undocumented day laborers hanging out in front of Home Depot that you get in California, so I'm always puzzled by the reasons why locals might be so concerned about a problem that affects them indirectly, at best.

I appreciate your argument and your efforts to not devolve into nonsense, and I apologize if I did. But let's be clear - it's not exactly a reasonable argument to counter something I wrote with the equivalent of, "well if you like these immigrants so much, why don't you take them in".

[Save Us]

My point is that too often people whine about the supposed difficulty of crossing the Peace Bridge and then compare it to someone illegally crossing a river in the middle of nowhere in the desert Southwest.

If we agree that there is a "problem" at the border; i.e., that there are ways for people to cross the border without declaring the entry to Customs & Border Protection, that's fine.




So, we should ignore every. single. other global threat to the United States because some Honduran tweens are crossing the Rio Grande and surrendering to the first Border Patrol agent they see? That seems silly.

Of course not, my position which has no political orientation is that we need to start considering the economic consequences to ALL of our actions. Now we can argue whether that Domestic or Foreign policy is more important but let's not repeat the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire for god sakes.

My Peace bridge comment was in error.. The point I wish to make was that we would all feel differently if we were in these citizens shoes down on the border.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

If they wanted to stay and could not, then you notice that there is a very urgent need for immigration law reform. There is exactly one reason why that hasn't happened in the last few years, and it is completely political in nature. Specifically, an unwillingness by Congressional Republicans to allow anything to happen that might be seen as a "win" for the President. Full stop.

There is a need for urgent immigration law reform and I agree that the Congressional Republicans have fault in holding this up. We also agree, again, that this is political in nature and that's disappointing. That said, there are existing laws already on the books and the Obama administration has refused to enforce the aspects of the laws they don't agree with. There are two sides to this issue and both are in the wrong.

You can't break or bend the laws when convenient or because you don't agree with them AND at the same time attempt to have a productive conversation/process to actually reforming said laws.

I don't know from La Raza because I'm not in California, and also because Buffalo is a draw for refugees from places like Burma and Sudan, not Mexico. Buffalo doesn't have the problems of, e.g., undocumented day laborers hanging out in front of Home Depot that you get in California, so I'm always puzzled by the reasons why locals might be so concerned about a problem that affects them indirectly, at best.

What makes you think it's indirect at best? Again with the assumptions.

Does your school district have refugees from Burma or Sudan in the classroom? Does the community services of Clarence see any impact at all from refugees? Until you do, you're on the outside looking in. Under Federal law, States and local educational agencies are obligated to provide all children – regardless of immigration status – with equal access to public education at the elementary and secondary level. This includes children such as unaccompanied children who may be involved in immigration proceedings.

This law comes with a cost. It comes with a burden. It comes with challenges. You had mentioned previously that you would welcome funds to Clarence that came along with these students but did you fully evaluate your opinion on that? Honestly. The money that is there does not solve the challenges. It does not even put a dent in them.

I am not saying that because dealing with these issues is difficult or presents problems they should be cast aside or ignored. What I am saying is that there are many layers of problems that are presenting and they need to be a part of the conversation. It's not being cold. It's not being hateful. It's about dealing with the reality of the situation.

Just how far would you stretch your ideology at the expense of your children's eduction? After all, I think it's fair to say you lean very left but you choose to live in a Republican exclave. Now I am making an assumption and inference here, so forgive me if I am wrong, but I assume you make this choice for the betterment of your kids education and public safety of your family. Am I wrong?

I appreciate your argument and your efforts to not devolve into nonsense, and I apologize if I did. But let's be clear - it's not exactly a reasonable argument to counter something I wrote with the equivalent of, "well if you like these immigrants so much, why don't you take them in".

I think was a reasonable point that I should have articulated better but I stand by the idea that until people are in the middle of the mix they really can't comprehend all aspects of the situation.

[buffalopundit]

I can feel empathy for the victims of Nazi or Khmer Rouge genocide without inviting them all into my home.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

I can feel empathy for the victims of Nazi or Khmer Rouge genocide without inviting them all into my home.

This is a bit of a reach...

There is also a big difference. You don't have a vote or say in the governments over these situations (for lack of a better word on horrible things) and you're not trying to tell the locals what they should feel or care about.