Unions, Business and Dynamic Tension

[CindyLocklear]

NightOwl's post on the "Not Doing the Right Thing" Thread prompted this thought.

While it may be true that the goal of some is to dismantle unions, and it may be equally true that the goal of others is to 'socialize' government to the point we no longer enjoy a representative democracy.

I think the core of the issue in Erie County TODAY is one of REBALANCING the union/management dynamic in the public sector. This rebalancing appears to be taking place already in segments of the private sector such as airlines and automotive.

Collective bargaining is a statutory mandate for public workers in NYS. That is not about to change, nor is the right for collective bargaining the real issue.

The issue is that today, the 'pendulum has swung' too far to the the union side and the momentum of that imbalance is jeopardizing our local economy. Compensation and benefits are 'too rich' when compared to the compensation and benefits earned by the the nonunion taxpayers; Government as an employer of 'first resort' can not be supported by this non union workforce. These are simple facts and to ignore them will only serve to lead to a hostile rebalancing where both extremes of the dynamic are harmed.

The better approach is a voluntary moderation of this dynamic tension between the two camps. Its cyclical folks and important that leaders in the public unions and elected offices react responsibly and with a lot less turf protectionism.

Cindy

[citymouse]

Unfortunatly the pendulum in the private sector has swung too far away from the unions. Public sector unions here look at themselves as the last bastion of hope for organized labor and groups like the partnership and the republican party knows this and also knows if they can break the public sector unions then thier job will be complete, their mission succesful.
You can't support families on Nine dollar an hour jobs with no health care. But thats what it's come down to.
That is where the balance comes in to play. Private sector should be brought up to civil service standards, not vice versa.

[Night Owl]

The issue is that today, the 'pendulum has swung' too far to the the union side and the momentum of that imbalance is jeopardizing our local economy.

Whereas I disagree, the unions include the hardest working people of the area. A full time garbage collector puts in a full days work compared to a teenage gum-snapping cashier who whines about making a burger. The same applies for area nurses, etc. The unions are being squeezed out based on a conservative's idea to privitize everything, and using benefits as the biggest excuss.

[LHardy]

posted by citymouse
Private sector should be brought up to civil service standards, not vice versa.

Then you would agree that a carpenter, remodelor, plumber, auto mechanic, etc. Skilled labor in the private sector.
Should be paid over $80,000/yr with benies.

[biker]

The federal law (Taft Hartely??) was created during the 1930s, to give an advantage to labor so as to protect jobs and wages in an environment where the biggest threat to economic security was deflation.

The wages, benefits and work rules the old line industries are suffering through were put in place during the high growth (and later high inflation) of the 1950s to the 1970s.

The weakness of organized labor is a testament as to how outdated these federal laws are. The economics of the private sector is laying waste to these outdated contracts and laws as there is no alternative other than annilhilation under the law.

The only place where unions are thriving is the public sector. Someday, even politicians will get sick of the massive amounts of tax dollars that are necessary to feed this beast.

The public unions posting here are pretty smug about their position: they've told us several times that their employers can't go bankrupt.

Consider what the private sector would look like if we were to have applied public sector solutions decades ago: in order to safeguard the UAW's membership, we would have outlawed the imports of foreign cars and there would have been a mandated floor for new car prices such that the minimum price for the cheapest car Detroit produced was $50,000.

That's what "Private sector should be brought up to civil service standards" would have brought us.

Some solution!

[LHardy]

A full time garbage collector puts in a full days work compared to a teenage gum-snapping cashier who whines about making a burger.

Never imagined I would see the day an owl kissing a mouses butt.

[Night Owl]

Touché - LHardy. It acually isn't like that when talking about how the privitization of public entiities is squeezing out the union workers. The nurses at Mercy Hospital are facing the same type of down play.

[Stevenco]

..the lazy and incompetant.

[Night Owl]

I would like to see something to show that union workers don't do anything, if to say they are lazy and incompetent, where are the backings to these assumptions?

[Stevenco]

Didn't say union workers were lazy and incompetant. Said unions protect the lazy and incompetant.

[SolarEclipse]

Originally posted by Night Owl
I would like to see something to show that union workers don't do anything, if to say they are lazy and incompetent, where are the backings to these assumptions?

"Ten years after union organization, the
unionized company’s output per employee
would be 2.4 percent less than the output per
employee of its non-union competitor, if the
unionized company experiences just 0.25
percent slower productivity growth from an
equal starting basis. Unless the product of the
unionized company can be sold for a higher
price or other cost savings attained, the
unionized company is likely to result in profits
per labor hour 14 percent less than a nonunion
workplace."

http://www.epf.org/pubs/newsletters/2003/ib20030314.pdf

[Night Owl]

Thank you solar.

[CindyLocklear]

Hi Citymouse:

First question for you... you said "private sector should be brought up to civil service standards" which provoked a question... Are all Civil Service employees included in a public sector collective bargaining unit? Is that why you equate the two?

Not all public sector employees are under the Civil Service Law, btw.

Here is a part of the mission statement from the Civil Service Dept website:

The Department is responsible for providing the State of New York with a trained, capable and motivated public work force, selected on the basis of excellence and equal opportunity. To do this, the Department carries out a number of functions, including administering the New York State Civil Service Law as it governs the appointment, promotion and transfer of personnel.

My question is: is if State Civil Service Law GOVERNS THE APPOINTMENT, PROMOTION AND TRANSFER OF PERSONNEL, what is the function of collective bargaining agreements? Add to that the Prevailing Wage Rates requirements, which I believe apply also to the public workforce and I question what the 'value added' is of the public sector unions?

Doesnt it seem redundant?

[CindyLocklear]

Citymouse cited this as an argument in support of unions in his post above. I have heard this argument a few times in the last several weeks from other union people, but it strikes me as somewhat of a "hot button" statement that union folks are promoting to stir up the emotions.

It makes it sound as if a skilled and experienced work force employee currently making $27/hour is going to be forced to take a 2/3rds pay cut.

I dont think those are correct assumptions tho. If we are talking about Delphi, I thought that Delphi was looking to having its ENTRY LEVEL positions start at $9/hr.

While its true that a middle aged wage earner with one or more kids could not survive on a single income of $9/hr... is this really the entry level person?

Isnt it possible that $9/hr is not quite so abhorent if we are talking about someone who at the age of 17 or 18 is entering the work force with minimal or no skills, experience, training or education? Someone who may or may not be married, or a parent or the sole wage earner in a family or even living on their own?

[biker]

Sounds very reasonable, Ms. Locklear.

The goons will never go for it.

If they swallow that, they might believe that a rising minimum wage puts poor, uneducated kids out of work.