Should Community Colleges teach the last 2 years of High School?

[moadib]

Should Community Colleges teach the last 2 years of High School & take that failed responsibility from the public schools?

I read an interesting article about why High School is so boring and un-interesting to students. The article said that teenagers today (may not be more emotionally mature) but they are more aware of the world (movies, internet, cell phones, etc), more independent (40 years of latch key kids & single mothers) and need a more challenging intellectual environment than High School.

THE ARTICLE POSED THE QUESTION SHOULD THE SCHOOL FINANCIAL PROBLEMS BE RESOLVED BY JUST ELIMINATING 11th & 12th GRADE FROM HIGH SCHOOL.

IT WOULD WORK LIKE THIS:
1) 9th & 10th COURSEWORK WOULD BE REVAMPED TO SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS OF A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA OR REGENTS DIPLOMA.
2) STUDENTS COULD THEN STAY IN HIGH SCHOOL FOR 11th & 12th GRADE FOR A TRADITIONAL GRADUATION OR THEY COULD APPLY TO A LOCAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE WHERE THEY WOULD CONTINUE WITH COLLEGE LEVEL COURSE WORK (some of which would be assuming the responsibility of teaching some of the content eliminated at High School from an abreviated graduation.

PUBLIC, PRIVATE, CHARTER & PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS WOULD LOOSE THEIR STUDENTS AND THEIR TUITION / SCHOOL TAXES

I READ SOME PLACES HAVE EVEN TRANSFERRED THE SCHOOL TAXES SO STUDENTS COULD FINISH THEIR HIGH SCHOOL PROGRAMS AT COMMUNITY COLLEGES, TAKE THEIR AP COURSES AT COMMUNITY COLLEGES OR GET AN EARLY START ON THEIR ASSOCIATE DEGREE.

WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES?
1) All Colleges (2-year & 4-year) are ranked for academic performance (locally, regionally, statewide and nationally).
2) Because Colleges are ranked by performance, the focus is constantly on the students and the student quality of life. Bad ratings mean less students and less tuition just like private, parochial and charter schools.
3) Colleges dont warehouse kids! There is no requirement to be in college. Its voluntary and you have to apply to be there and stay there!
4) Colleges dont tolerate bad behavior and they dont tolerate bad performance. You either keep up, drop back and take remedial courses or drop out.
5) Students respond to the independence and the challenge and to the choice.
6) It removes the parents treating public schools like babysitting factories complaining about how their children are treated, disciplined or how much homework they get. YOU CANT CALL UP A COLLEGE PROFESSOR AND TELL THEM THEIR CHILDREN ARE GETTING STRESSED FROM TO MUCH HOMEWORK.

I THINK THAT THE ARGUMENT FOR ELIMINATING 2 YEARS FROM HIGH SCHOOL AND TRANSFERRING THEM TO COLLEGE DESERVES SOME MERIT.

LASTLY, THE ARTICLE ALSO MENTIONED SOMETHING ELSE THAT I THOUGHT WAS VERY VERY INTERESTING. IT SEEMS THAT TEENAGERS TODAY ARE GOING THROUGH PUBERTY INTO ADULTHOOD 3-4 YEARS EARLIER THAN THEY DID IN THE 1940s & 50s. DOES ANYONE CARE TO COMMENT ON THIS? WERE CHILDREN STILL GOING THROUGH PUBERTY AT 16 & 17 LONG AGO....AS SOME KIDS ARE GOING THROUGH PUBERTY TODAY AS EARLY AS 11, 12 & 13.

[Night Owl]

Where do you get this stuff from?

[Linda_D]

Moadib, you and whoever wrote this article, obviously has little or no knowledge about education. Flat out, your idea is dumb! The bright kids who could finish up their graduation requirements in only two years are NOT the problem! The kids who struggle to finish their graduation requirements in four years are NOT the problem! The problems in high schools come primarily from the unmotivated students who are marking time because 1) they're too young to quit school; 2) their parents insist that they finish high school; 3) they're too lazy to get a full time job; 4) they want to hang out with their friends all day. Whatever makes you think these students would be interested enough to complete their grad requirements in two years and then go on to a community college? More than likely, they'd do just as they do now: take up space, disrupt classes, and generally waste everyone's time.

At least in the Southern Tier, bright students have the opportunity to take courses for college credit before they graduate from high school through programs run by Jamestown Community College. Some of these courses are taught right in the high schools; others are taught via distance learning technology. Most JCC on-campus courses are also open to high school students who meet course requirements. There are some very bright students from schools like Jamestown, Southwestern, and Frewsburg who have earned as many as 30 credit hours (equivalent to 1 year of college) by the time they graduate from high school. Other community colleges in New York State also offer courses to high school students.

Many suburban Buffalo school districts offer Advanced Placement courses which students can take. I'm not sure if they get actual college credit for these or if taking these courses enables them to simply fulfil general course requirements, but most bright suburban students aren't just sitting around in study halls as seniors making paper airplanes and passing notes.

I'm not sure if Buffalo high schools offer college courses in the high schools or advanced placement courses, but if they don't, then that's an issue with a particular school district, not all districts.

[crlachepinochet]

I think more people have the problem of not learning enough and not knowing what they're supposed to, rather than being too smart and being bored. There are ways to make school more challenging, with honors and AP courses. APs are usually for college credit if you score well enough on the exam... my fiancee had nearly 35 (35!!! I'm the dumb one) credits by the time she entered UB. Most places will only take them as pass/fail, so not for major credit.

[jennw1128]

Actually I sort of like this idea. I think education is a privledge, not paid baby sitting, if kids don;t want to learn, fine, leave! They'll be back getting their GED at 25 or 30. Also, Vocational Education should be widespread. We will always need good auto mechanics, plumbers and carpenters and in my district, you could get an LPN degree. Brilliant! Some students want just to GET OUT and on their own. I say give them the tools to do it.

[moadib]

SORRY, LINDA BUT OBJECTIVE RESEARCH SAYS THAT HS STUDENTS ARE BORED NOT STUPID

THATS RIGHT, BORED AND UNCHALLENGED, WHICH RESULTS IN IMMATURE BEHAVIOR AS THEY TRY TO ENTERTAIN THEMSELVES FROM THE BABYSITTING FACTORIES WE CALL HIGH SCHOOLS.

IS IT ANY WONDER WHY TEENAGERS MATURE SO QUICKLY ONCE THE DEMANDS OF COLLEGE ENTIRE THEIR LIFE YET REMAIN ELUSIVE DURING HIGH SCHOOL.

HIGH SCHOOL SIMPLY TAKES WHAT ARE NOW ADULTS AND GIVES THEM AN EXTENDED CHILDHOOD WHICH BORES THEM AND LEAVES THEM UNCHALLENGED.

STATISTICS SHOW THAT MANY HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS RISE TO THE INDEPENDENCE AND CHALLENGES OF COMMUNITY COLLEGE WHERE THEY FAILED TO DO SO IN HIGH SCHOOL

BUT ONCE AGAIN LINDA, LIKE SCHOOL CHOICE AND SCHOOL VOUCHERS....ANY IDEA THAT DOESNT FIT YOUR PEA SIZED FEMINIST BRAIN...DOESNT REGISTER.

[jennw1128]

I think some are bored, I think others are, well, unmature, let 'em sit in High School, let those that want to excel, excel.

From the Augusta, Ga Chronicle:
Notion of early college ditched

Early College High School, a trendy concept spreading across the nation, won't be coming to Richmond County as planned.

Augusta State University officials pulled the plug on the project because they said they couldn't meet a timetable for implementing the program that was desired by the Board of Regents and the Georgia Department of Education.

The program had created a buzz among Richmond County school board members because it was designed to help low-income students, minority students, English-language learners and students who would be the first in their families to attend college. Under the original plan, ASU would have worked with the school district to have 100 area ninth-graders begin taking college-level classes and earn two years of college credit or an associate's degree by the time they finished high school.

"I think there was more to it than we were originally told, and I think the state was just expecting more than they were willing to support," said Dr. Gordon Eisenman, the chairman of ASU's Department of Teacher Development. In addition, ASU officials were concerned the program would require too much space on campus.

Richmond County school officials said they learned a lot about the concept and would like to find another way to implement it. The program is designed to increase high school graduation rates and the number of youths with a college education.

"It is something I see that our students need," said Richmond County Assistant Superintendent Pat Burau. "Now, it is our challenge to find a way to give them that opportunity."

Six communities in Georgia were originally awarded a four-year, $450,000 grant each through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the Woodruff Foundation to pay for setup and operation of the school.

Richmond County isn't the first in the Peach State to pull out. Coastal Georgia Community College in Brunswick pulled out earlier this year because of issues with student enrollment.

Nearly 50 early college high schools have opened in the United States, educating more than 8,000 students in 19 states. Plans call for 170 sites to be running by fall 2008.

Reach Greg Rickabaugh at (706) 828-3851 or greg.rickabaugh@augustachronicle.com.


Click here to return to story:
http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories..._4051074.shtml

Ok, so Augusta could not make a go of it. Maybe needs more time and planning and oversite. Maybe colleges are scared that this might effect their bottom line. We need to do something to help educate and prepare student for the real world at the same time TRY NOT to sink them in debt. Other wise the next generation will end up just as bad as mine - See fortune magazine articel this month:

Ten years ago grunge musicians and college-age Cassandras who had never held a day job preached that corporate America would crush their generation's soul and leave them without a pension plan. A few years later the core of Generation X--the 40 million Americans born between 1966 and 1975--found themselves riding the wildest economic bull ever. Salesclerks became programmers; coffee slingers morphed into experts in Java (computerese, that is)--all flush with stock options and eye-popping salaries.

Now that the thrill ride is over, Gen X's plight seems particularly bruising. No generation since the Depression has been set up for failure like this. Everything the dot-com boom delivered has been taken away--and then some. Real wages are falling, wealth continues to shift from younger to older, and education costs are surging. Worse yet, for some Gen Xers, their peak earning years are behind them. Buried in college and credit card debt, a lot of them won't be able to catch up as they approach their prime spending years. Yes, yes, yes, we know what you're thinking. The free-spending slackers have only themselves to blame, since the dot-com boom should have made them rich for life. On the surface that's true. A 30-year-old today is 50% more likely to have a bachelor's degree than his counterpart in 1974 and earns $5,000 more a year, adjusted for inflation. But that's where the good news stops. He also has more in student loans and credit card debt, is less likely to own a home, and is just as likely to be unemployed. His salary probably topped out during the boom, whereas his predecessor's rose throughout his career. Social Security will start to evaporate as he turns 50--or before, if the lockbox gets raided--so he'll have to depend almost completely on his own savings for retirement. The comparison with a 30-year-old in 1984 isn't any rosier. FORTUNE recently encountered the bitter and (now) experienced voice of Generation X. We interviewed more than 50 Gen Xers in Dallas, Louisville, and Seattle, with jobs ranging from construction manager to software engineer. Battered by the economy and the bad luck of being born between Madonna and Britney Spears, they're Generation Wrecked.

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/speci...ked/index.html

[stevenco]

Have the business sector finance the last two years.

[Linda_D]

The program in Georgia is not the same thing as what Moadib is proposing. It's more like AP and the college courses in high schools program that JCC and other NYS community colleges run. Students weren't going to graduate in 2 years from high school and then go on to college. They're going to take college courses while completing their high school grad requirements.

It's a good program for bright students, but it's not a solution for unmotivated students. It's like treating somebody with a broken leg for a burned hand.

[jennw1128]

One thing that no one has posted as of yet are statistics on how many college students entering college drop out or never finish and reasons why. It could be maturity, inability to rise to finish. Also, not knowing what you want to major in, having a family, lack of money are probably other reasons.

Just because many enter, do not mean everyone finishes.

[jennw1128]

Linda_D

agreed it's not what moadib is talking about. I just saw the article and thought it provided some "food for thought" notice also that it's aimed towards disadvantaged students in order to get them an Associated Degree by the time they graduate so they can have something when they go out into the working world,other than a HS diploma which is just a "record of attendance" pretty much and many jobs won't consider you without a higher degree or some sort of training in some field.

I favor this for the reasons listed in the Fortune article. If we keep going the way we are going another generation will have crushing college debt and CC debt. I am wondering if there is anyway to avoid this? Giving something of value to graduating HS now would help, I believe.

[Linda_D]

I'm not sure how many actually complete a degree, but it's taking longer for students to finish degrees these days. Getting a 2 year associates degree often takes 1 or 2 extra semesters. Getting a 4 year degree has lengthened to 5 years.

Part of this is due to the fact that while colleges require courses x,y, and z to complete a major, they don't always offer these courses every semester or only offer limited seats in them, so some students get shut out and have to come back.

[crlachepinochet]

I like the idea of allowing poor kids to use their high school time to get some value out of their free education, because a high school diploma really doesn't count for much anymore. I don't know how much of an issue this is in NY, because the poorest can get education at a SUNY school pretty much covered and community colleges are dirt cheap. My freshman year, my mom was hurt at work and only made ~$10,000 and my college was covered save for a $1000 subsidized loan.

I think when people take longer than planned to finish a degree, it's mostly because they switch majors late in the program. Often, there are sequences of courses that can't be completed in a short amount of time. I switched my major a year ago, and I stayed out of a major because there was a sequence that would have effectively taken 2 1/2 years to finish. A lot of schools will make exceptions or substitutions if the only reason someone won't graduate on time is a course that isn't offered. At UB, the English dept. requires a course on Chaucer, but they always have a hard time finding a professor to teach it. I think most people graduate without taking a Chaucer class even though it's a "requirement".

[moadib]

Look let me restate my support for School Choice more clearly!

Parents and Children have different needs and different ways of learning, such as studies are now showing that scores for single sex schools have higher test scores since boys are not distracted by girls and girls are not distracted by boys....its easier to focus and keeping their attention on learning.

Some students might do well with the opportunity to take college credit courses or AP courses in High School

Some students might do better finishing High School in 10th grade and using their public school vouchers and satisfy their combining their 11th & 12th grade studies with an Associates Degree, Skill or Trade in an independent & unstructured learning environment like college

Some students do better is highly structured military style charter schools

Some students do better in single sex parochial schools or private schools

ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT THERE ARE MANY SCIENTIFIC AND OBJECTIVE STUDIES ABOUT HOW CHILDREN EXCELL. SCHOOL VOUCHERS AND SCHOOL CHOICE PROVIDE THE MEANS TO FINANCE THE BEST POSSIBLE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT, SO THAT CHOICES ARE NOT LIMITED TO ONLY THE RICH WHO CAN OPT-OUT!

TO ME, THE PURPOSE OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION & THE SCHOOL BOARD IS SETTING STANDARDS + AUDITING COMPLIANCE.

COMBINING THE POWER TO SET STANDARDS, TO AUDIT COMPLIANCE AND TEACH RESULTS IN A CONFLICT OF INTEREST & ELIMINATION OF COMPETITION THROUGH POWER & POLITICS.

LETS SET THE BOARD OF EDUCATION, THE SCHOOL BOARD AND THE UNIONS FREE FROM MANAGING SCHOOLS AND LET THEM FOCUS ON SETTING STANDARDS & AUDITING COMPLIANCE.

LET THE CHARTER, PUBLIC, PRIVATE, PAROCHIAL AND COMMUNITY COLLEGES BE RESPONSIBLE FOR TEACHING.

LETS TAKE THE POWER OUT OF THE BURACRACY & THE TEACHERS UNIONS THROUGH SCHOOL CHOICE AND SCHOOL VOUCHERS...SO WE CAN PUT THE CHILDRENS EDUCATIONAL NEEDS FIRST!

[buffknut]

I always thought that my last 2 years of high school were a waste of time and I could have gone straight to college instead of wasting 2 years. I've seen the same thing with my kids. They are either taking useless classes or are taking AP college credit classes (and graduating early as a result). I guess the point is that there is not much difference between the last 2 years of high school and the first 2 years of college.

I believe kids actually want to learn and have great capacity to do so. Unfortunately the academic curriculums are designed to bore them to death both in high school and while taking core curriculum classes in college. They practically suck the life out of kids with courses in Sociology, Psych, English Lit, etc. Who says that reading Hawthorne & other "classic" authors is better than reading more current novels. I'm not saying let them read trash but really. I hated Moby Dick, Scarlet Letter, etc. Why do we continue to "teach" the same crap?

And why don't we teach electronics, plumbing, carpentry? Real world skills based on mathematics and reading comprehension. We can also teach financial management, and other more relevant topics than the boring stuff taught today.

You wonder why they're bored? Open up a few textbooks. Grab a nap.