Close the ice rink or the tax payers pick up the tab?

[wnyfuture]

Are you intentionally neglecting to add the fees that the hockey kids families pay to use the ice?

Let's say there are 10-teams for each age group in house play with 15-kids per team.
House
Beginners: $303 * 150 players = $45450
Mites: $395 * 150 players = $59250
Squirts: $395 * 150 players = $59250
PeeWees: $395 * 150 players = $59250
Bantams: $445 * 150 players = $66750

Total: $289950

750 players require Town ID = 750 * $5 = $3750

Travel
Mite Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Mite Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400

Girls
Girls 12U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 14U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 16U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 19U: 15 * $760 = $11400

Total: 18 teams at $11400 each = $205200

Total In: $289950 + $205200 + $3750 = $498900

Now add the other things you were talking about.

Additionally, all the ice time is not simply allotted to all the West Seneca teams. Ice is also available for other teams, clinics, camps, and tournaments.

and finally, it is the home rink for the Buffalo Jr. Sabres. I'm not sure if they pay to have their office/locker room there or if the rink gets a cut of the tickets sold for their home games.

Now I'm not saying that income exceeds costs, but your logic was way to simple.

You forgot to mention how much the town of ws pays Leisure for the house program to skate at their rink. WS ice rink is losing lots of money and residents from OP, Elma, Buffalo want the town residents to pick up the tab

[dtwarren]

The issue of the hockey association was recently raised by Mr. Petko in a piece that ran in the WS Bee. I still could not see how this organization qualifies as a 501(c)(3) rather than a 501(c)(4) or 501(c)(7) so I went looking and sure enough they are a 501(c)(3) organization. In the article the officials of the hockey association stated that they have an accountant that reviews their budget each year. I find this to be a non-answer, in their Form 990 filed for 2008 the association answered No when it was asked about donations to other 501 or 527 political entities. No where on this form does it disclose its contributions to political candidates. (See http://bartlett.oag.state.ny.us/Char...-BF76555CB201} )

[dtwarren]

BTW according to the latest 990 filed their accountant is Clark and Koller.

I am sure that firm will look for, and recognize, irregularities in political donations!

[wnyfuture]

Dtwarren,

Seems the Hockey Association gave only non-answers. I believe they don't see anything wrong with what they did. I don't know why they are giving money to politicians, doesn't matter if it's Obama or Wroblewski. The worst of all the donations is the West Seneca Democratic Committee, why on earth would they need the money. Other question is, will they give the money back?

[Psycho1]

Dtwarren,

Seems the Hockey Association gave only non-answers. I believe they don't see anything wrong with what they did. I don't know why they are giving money to politicians, doesn't matter if it's Obama or Wroblewski. The worst of all the donations is the West Seneca Democratic Committee, why on earth would they need the money. Other question is, will they give the money back?

They donate to get what they want. Look at many WS politicians, past and present, and you will see contributions from the WS Hockey Assoc. to their campaigns. But, is this any different than Ralph Lorigo contributing heavily. Apart from the money, his position as head of the Conservative Party gives him a lot of clout. I have often wondered if this shouldn't preclude him from bringing items before the Board.

As to giving money back, I highly doubt that will happen. Beside, everyone should have known not to take it from the start.

[dtwarren]

If the people who pay fees, dues or donates to this hockey association do not know or have a say in if the political donations should be made and if so to whom then this is compelled speech and association.

[dtwarren]

Now here is an interesting question, given the association's reliance on the Town of West Seneca at what point does the Town's involvement become state action for purposes of someone bringing a Section 1983 lawsuit against the Town and the WS Hockey Association for violation of their First Amendment right to free association and speech?

[wnyfuture]

I'm little confused on the association of the town and hockey association. This would be something to ask the town board, I've never been given a straight answer. I'm not exactly positive but I've been told "house" program is apart of the town and "travel" program is not but I believe they share the same board, fundraisers, board meetings, and file taxes together. Interesting enough, town's recreation director is listed on the association's web site as board member. What is the separation between the town and hockey association?

Why are they donating to the Democrats, not the Republicans, Independence Party, etc. why are they donating to certain politicians and not all of them? How do they determine the various amounts? There seems to be a conflict of interest going on here.

No, there is no difference when any politicans contributes. Again, too much of conflict of interest going on here.

[Psycho1]

I'm little confused on the association of the town and hockey association. This would be something to ask the town board, I've never been given a straight answer. I'm not exactly positive but I've been told "house" program is apart of the town and "travel" program is not but I believe they share the same board, fundraisers, board meetings, and file taxes together. Interesting enough, town's recreation director is listed on the association's web site as board member. What is the separation between the town and hockey association?

Why are they donating to the Democrats, not the Republicans, Independence Party, etc. why are they donating to certain politicians and not all of them? How do they determine the various amounts? There seems to be a conflict of interest going on here.

No, there is no difference when any politicians contributes. Again, too much of conflict of interest going on here.

As for a straight answer, good luck! West Seneca is a special interest community. These special interests control most all of the elections, with their candidates running on a reform platform. Problem is, the reform they espouse only applies to items of no concern to that particular special interest group. Someone is practically guaranteed to be elected if they can pander to the three major groups, Seniors, Sports, Town employees. You may win if you can get two out of three, but your pretty much toast without any. The key factor is recalling what you've promised each group during the campaign, and hoping your opponent doesn't catch you in a misstep.

I've come to the sad conclusion that West Seneca is doomed to repeat failure on many levels, and our only real chance for change will come when... oh hell, who am I kidding, we're screwed.

[wnyfuture]

Buffalo News picks up the story, weeks after the Bee covers the story.

http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregio...ry/781065.html

[Psycho1]

Buffalo News picks up the story, weeks after the Bee covers the story.

http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregio...ry/781065.html

The sad part is, this isn't news in WS. Look back at so many elections and you'll find other not for profit groups listed as contributors. As with most things here, a blind eye is always turned when it suits those in control. The same can be said for businesses in town. Several businesses contribute heavily during election season, often to both candidates, and then go before the Board for job bids, permits, variances, or other items requiring the Boards approval. How can they afford to say no? Whether it's developers, contractors, suppliers, the winning bidder is often a contributor to many campaigns. And, let's not forget some attorneys who have a great deal of influence over the political system.

Two recent bids for roofing, one for the Historical Building and the other the salt barn, have only two bidders listed. One is a well known roofing company in WS and a contributor to Mr. English's campaign, the other does not appear to contribute, at least that I have found. The contributor's bid is suspiciously lower than the non-contributors, by significant amounts. For the salt barn the difference is $13,319, and the Hist. Building $8975. Now, I don't know roofing, so maybe there is an explanation for the huge gap. However, experience has shown me that when the bids are this varied, there are often "change orders" processed once the job starts to make-up the difference. Then we need to add in what each will charge for ply-wood, should it need to be replaced. Both want between $45 and $65 per sheet! Hell, I can go to any lumber supplier, and buy it for at least half the amount, or much less. I'm sure the Highway Department can purchase ply-wood at a better price through the State bid list, and just pay the labor costs. I know, I'm being rational again, sorry.

The road is full of potholes, ruts, and broken pavement, yet we continue down that road as though nothing is wrong. If it weren't so tragic, it would be funny.

[wnyfuture]

I heard the designs for the ice rinks have already been developed, The town spent, I was told two different figures $15k and $18k to design the new ice rink and I also was told, there would be ice rink meeting to discuss the design/plans this month or the next.

Get ready for it, we are going to pay for it.

[Sylvan]

Ice rinks are good for kids and community.

[dtwarren]

But should a municipality be competing with businesses that provide the same resources for it?

[wnyfuture]

But should a municipality be competing with businesses that provide the same resources for it?

Would this be up to the taxpayers to vote or would the town board need to approve the decision?

If it's up to the town, looks like we will have a new ice rink since the town already spent $15k on rink designs.