Close the ice rink or the tax payers pick up the tab?

[Pumpkinhead]

Where do you draw the line when the Town and WNY have an aging population? Why should a small local government pay for expensive recreational hobbies? Why an ice rink, why not a bowling alley? A lot of people in West Seneca like to bowl and there are a lot of bowling leagues. And then there is golf.....

[Comet]

Where do you draw the line when the Town and WNY have an aging population? Why should a small local government pay for expensive recreational hobbies? Why an ice rink, why not a bowling alley? A lot of people in West Seneca like to bowl and there are a lot of bowling leagues. And then there is golf.....

Really, what business does a blue collar town with an aging population, whacked out tax assessements, some of the highest property taxes in the county, yet with one of the lowest median home sales prices have, owning and operating and subsidizing a venture that caters to an elitist and male dominated activity? My bet is that less than 1% of the town's population uses this facility.

Sure this kind of recreational asset is fine for Amherst (take a look at their wealth and tax base); WS is NOT in that league. WS has to focus on essentials and priorities, not trying to run with the drs and lawyers and business owners in its wealthier counterparts. GET REAL.

[WNYresident]

Really, what business does a blue collar town with an aging population, whacked out tax assessements, some of the highest property taxes in the county, yet with one of the lowest median home sales prices have, owning and operating and subsidizing a venture that caters to an elitist and male dominated activity? My bet is that less than 1% of the town's population uses this facility.

Sure this kind of recreational asset is fine for Amherst (take a look at their wealth and tax base); WS is NOT in that league. WS has to focus on essentials and priorities, not trying to run with the drs and lawyers and business owners in its wealthier counterparts. GET REAL.

Amherst should not be subsidizing a sport either. I bet a small percentage of Amherst use the pepsi center. Not everyone in amherst is wealthy and why should they pay any of thier taxes so some snot nose kid can play hockey.

[Comet]

Amherst should not be subsidizing a sport either. I bet a small percentage of Amherst use the pepsi center. Not everyone in amherst is wealthy and why should they pay any of thier taxes so some snot nose kid can play hockey.

But that only highlights the point being made here and that is Government has no business subsidizing Ice Rinks. Period.

1. Collect garbage, plow the streets pave the roads: ESSENTIAL
2. Have the administrative bare minimum to tightly manage and accomplish the delivery of the above services

Consider other public safety and 'recreational' offerings based on voter referendum.

Homebuyers then choose the communities and services best suited to their taxpaying proclivity and desire for extras.

[Sylvan]

Amherst should not be subsidizing a sport either. I bet a small percentage of Amherst use the pepsi center. Not everyone in amherst is wealthy and why should they pay any of thier taxes so some snot nose kid can play hockey.

Convenience and luxury are what have been used to attract, and keep people in a suburban town. No?

I dont mean to imply that I support recreation payed for with tax dollars, but it sure seems like the overwelming majority of the population have been instilled to believe that pooling money together to support the interests of the population as a whole includes entertainment. In a remote way, it seems like this is a form of communism.

So the question is, why fight the commies while living in and being required to pay for their commune? Wouldnt ones resources and energy be more practically applied in an area where the neighbors are more likeminded to a homestead like independent lifestyle.

It just seems like those who live in urban and suburban areas who do all the complaining would get more accomplished if they got off their butt, and taught others how there are other way to be happy without being a commie by leading by example instead of dictating by a lazy vote.

[Sylvan]

But that only highlights the point being made here and that is Government has no business subsidizing Ice Rinks. Period.

1. Collect garbage, plow the streets pave the roads: ESSENTIAL
2. Have the administrative bare minimum to tightly manage and accomplish the delivery of the above services

Consider other public safety and 'recreational' offerings based on voter referendum.

Homebuyers then choose the communities and services best suited to their taxpaying proclivity and desire for extras.

Collecting garbage is NOT "essential". Responsible citizens should have two cans. One for recycleables, and one for "burnables". Each homeowner should own their own garbage burning machine/appliance that also duplicates as an electrical generator which will promote energy independence, and lower the demand.

If towns in florida are requiring new homes be build to include standby generators because there has proven to be power outage issues in that enviornment, then towns in WNY that are sick of the lack of prosperity, corrupt government, and the monopoly of utility companies can promote Off Grid Independent living.

But hey, maybe towns should own their own garbage burning fascility and produce the energy needed to power the friggin' ice rink, the plow garage, the park lights, etc?

[Janezombie]

If they want to have hockey, let them pay for it themselves. I want to go bowling, but don't see government building a bowling alley for me.

Also, Why do we have a football field in the town for a school that is in Buffalo? What an eyesore. They should have bought land on the East Side for their "Sports Complexes"

[dtwarren]

I just read the account of the Special Town Board meeting in the WS Bee and I still do not believe that the Town is in compliance with the competitive bidding requirements, in fact the Town's website specifically states that there is currently no contracts for bid.

[Lucky Larry]

If the second bid is under the $188,000 number, than the town will accept
the bid.
Aac Contracting has a bad habit of using scare tactics to get the job,
the sad part is that the $188,000 is not the final figure, its more like $300,000
The second bidder stated that the job could be completed for 1/3 of the cost.
WP must have some connection to Aac Contracting, hopefully someone
will come out with the connection. I didn't find any donations to WP's campaign from them but I did see that he accepted money from the
WS Baseball Association which is also a 501c3.

DT how do we proceed against SM, WP and the two organizations that
donated to their campaigns? Is there a way that we can get SM and WP
to resign?

[dtwarren]

The opportunity to bid must be advertised and not just obtining bids by request or some other method not open to all potential bidders.

The issue of questionable organizational donations can be handled through the IRS if in fact they are a 501c3 engaging in partisian political activity or through the membership of that organization recouping the funds from those who made the unauthorized expenditures.

[wnyfuture]

The bids are in..........

$ 123,970.00 Empire Building
$ 130,000.00 QSG Technologies
$ 162,000.00 Aric Corporation
$ 192,452.00 A.A.C. Contracting, Inc.
$ 287,000.00 Enviro. Tech

[WSWings98]

We have to suffer what our past presidents have done, the same we have to suffer because of the Paul Clark era

I'll post the math again, the cost of the rink is roughly over 600k, we would need to charge $275 a hour when other rinks are charging $185, the proshop & concessions only pays $800 a month (highest bid), $0 in sponsorship.

Income
Sponsorship - The rink isn't sponsored by anyone, no ads on the boards = $0
ProShop and Concessions - $1k per month (Sept thru April) = $8000

Let's assume they sell every hour of ice, please note, ice at night is available.
Ice Time - Let's assume $185 since that is what the pepsi center charges, cheektowaga, etc
Weekends - 17 hours of possible ice sold (Saturday and Sunday) 17 * 2 = 34 hours of ice sold
Weekdays - 8 hours per day, 5 times a week =40 hours of ice sold
One Week = 67 hours * 185 = $13690 will be rounded to $14,000.00 for one-week period breakdown. The rink is opened roughly 28 weeks
Ice Time Income = $392,000.00

Proshop = 8000.00
Ice Time Income = $392,000.00
Total = $400,000.00

Are you intentionally neglecting to add the fees that the hockey kids families pay to use the ice?

Let's say there are 10-teams for each age group in house play with 15-kids per team.
House
Beginners: $303 * 150 players = $45450
Mites: $395 * 150 players = $59250
Squirts: $395 * 150 players = $59250
PeeWees: $395 * 150 players = $59250
Bantams: $445 * 150 players = $66750

Total: $289950

750 players require Town ID = 750 * $5 = $3750

Travel
Mite Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Mite Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400

Girls
Girls 12U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 14U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 16U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 19U: 15 * $760 = $11400

Total: 18 teams at $11400 each = $205200

Total In: $289950 + $205200 + $3750 = $498900

Now add the other things you were talking about.

Additionally, all the ice time is not simply allotted to all the West Seneca teams. Ice is also available for other teams, clinics, camps, and tournaments.

and finally, it is the home rink for the Buffalo Jr. Sabres. I'm not sure if they pay to have their office/locker room there or if the rink gets a cut of the tickets sold for their home games.

Now I'm not saying that income exceeds costs, but your logic was way to simple.

[WSWings98]

Your poll has a major flaw and simply shows again that you really have no idea about what goes on with or at the rink. You got a response to one email you sent to a board member and your content with being the resident guru at the pros and cons of town hockey rink management. At a minimum, your qualifications to design this poll end at being a West Seneca taxpayer and at that is simply a presumption of mine based on your involvement in this forum.

Having a poll with a choice that states "let the travel program pay for everything" is a monumental example of your complete ignorance to the subject matter you are crying and whining about over and over again.

• Do you realize that the West Seneca town residents in the House league outnumber the West Seneca resident travel players 10-1?
• Do you have even a ball park estimate to the number of games the Buffalo Junior Sabres play here without using Google?
• Have you been in the rink more than once in the past 20-years?
• Can you guess (+ or - 50) the number of buses that will transport players from other regional areas to West Seneca to play at this rink?
• Have you spoken with any other users from outside of West Seneca for their thoughts on the facility and how it stacks up against other local options?
• Do you have the slightest approximation to the number of hours of ice allocated to any given team during a typical season?
• Can you fathom how many out of towners come in to West Seneca for the purpose of playing hockey between October and March?
• Have you sat down with the President, Vice President of House, Vice President of Travel, or the treasurer of the West Seneca Hockey Association so you can get your facts straight? Do you even know who they are?
• Have you spoken with any members of the EWAHL or WNYAHL who use the rink as well?
• Have you spoken to any members of the QMJHL regarding how often they frequent West Seneca thanks to the Junior Sabres?

When the sum of your qualifications is being a tax payer and having a computer, I think it would be in your best interest to do a little research before publically documenting how inept you are at finding out the facts and making a well educated statement to entice some kind of debate.

Good lord, I wish I would have read your poll options previously before replying to your post. This poll deserves no audience. There could be multiple examples at funding operations, and you provided one single semi-realistic choice - Closing the rink. I say that because you haven't addressed a single cost that would be associated with closing the rink likely because you have no idea what the cost to West Seneca would be if they had no rink.

"Let the travel players pay for everything" - nothing but ignorance in that statement. That would be equivalent to saying "let all the WS senior citizens who drive cover all the costs for road maintenance in West Seneca" - its foolish and illogical. Travel players don't need the West Seneca rink to play travel hockey. They are travel players because they are good enough to play on travel teams anywhere in WNY. This is especially true of West Seneca teams.

What you should be doing is thanking those players for choosing West Seneca as their affiliate organization. There are many other associations that would love to get their hands on many of the West Seneca players.

Here's a smart poll option: "Raise user fees" - now you really don't have to know squat about what goes on inside the rink to say that.

[Niagara]

When the sum of your qualifications is being a tax payer and having a computer, I think it would be in your best interest to do a little research before publically documenting how inept you are at finding out the facts and making a well educated statement to entice some kind of debate.

It is not my poll, but you well know of PC's statement a number of years ago the ice rink was operating at a large deficit.
You well know that there is no reason to believe that the deficit has decreased, only increased.
You well know that an abatement program is proposed which will drive up costs dramaticly.
You well know that there is a problem with infrastructure requiring a huge cost, now or very soon.

To say that the poster has to document everything is silly given that the exact amounts are not available, and in fact are in debate. Being a tax payer gives a person/poster a great deal of latitude. Taxes are near and dear to everyone. Most people want most from the least, and taxes are no different. Hockey used to be reserved to prep school children. Many consider it elitist and does not belong in a town like WS's portfolio of activities. Witness the fact that a wealthy town like EA having second doubts about getting into it.

[wnyfuture]

Are you intentionally neglecting to add the fees that the hockey kids families pay to use the ice?

Let's say there are 10-teams for each age group in house play with 15-kids per team.
House
Beginners: $303 * 150 players = $45450
Mites: $395 * 150 players = $59250
Squirts: $395 * 150 players = $59250
PeeWees: $395 * 150 players = $59250
Bantams: $445 * 150 players = $66750

Total: $289950

750 players require Town ID = 750 * $5 = $3750

Travel
Mite Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Mite Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Squirt Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
PeeWee Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Bantam Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Minor: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Major: 15 * $760 = $11400
Midget Tier II: 15 * $760 = $11400

Girls
Girls 12U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 14U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 16U: 15 * $760 = $11400
Girls 19U: 15 * $760 = $11400

Total: 18 teams at $11400 each = $205200

Total In: $289950 + $205200 + $3750 = $498900

Now add the other things you were talking about.

Additionally, all the ice time is not simply allotted to all the West Seneca teams. Ice is also available for other teams, clinics, camps, and tournaments.

and finally, it is the home rink for the Buffalo Jr. Sabres. I'm not sure if they pay to have their office/locker room there or if the rink gets a cut of the tickets sold for their home games.

Now I'm not saying that income exceeds costs, but your logic was way to simple.

You forgot to mention how much the town of ws pays Leisure for the house program to skate at their rink. WS is losing lots of money and residents from OP, Elma, Buffalo want the town residents to pick up the tab