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Thread: Erie County can make millions but cant spend $1 to extend light rail

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    Erie County can make millions but cant spend $1 to extend light rail

    Counties play role in high gas prices
    By not capping tax, they magnify rise in pump prices
    By Fred O. Williams NEWS BUSINESS REPORTER
    Updated: 12/09/07 7:45 AM

    Robert Kirkham/Buffalo News
    It costs Ron Richards of Lancaster about $50 to fill the tank of his Buick, but as a retiree he can cut back on driving to save money, he says.
    One reason behind rising gasoline prices is right here at home.

    Local governments in Erie, Niagara and other counties are raking in more sales tax per gallon as fuel prices rise.

    Local taxes are the only ones still based on a percentage of the price of gasoline — 4.75 percent percent in Erie County.

    New York state capped its sales tax on gas at 8 cents a gallon in 2006, to avoid ratcheting up the burden on drivers. Counties could choose to follow suit, but only 11 opted in.

    That decision staved off fiscal problems for cash-strapped local governments. But it doesn’t win applause from motorists these days, as fuel prices approach record territory.

    “They need to cut that,” utility worker Nancy Lafornara said about gasoline taxes. The Lancaster woman was filling up her mid-size sedan on Main Street in Buffalo, an expense that has gone from $20 a tank to about $35.

    “When you travel you see that other states don’t pay nearly what we pay,” she said.

    At 59.3 cents per gallon, gas taxes in New York are the third-highest in the country, according to the American Petroleum Institute, an oil industry group. The total includes federal, state and local levies.

    “It hurts,” retiree Ron Richards said of higher fuel prices. His Buick costs about $50 to fill up, but he can curtail trips to save, he said.

    The average price of a gallon of regular was $3.29 Friday in Western New York, up from $2.50 at the beginning of the year, according to the AAA Daily Fuel Gauge report.

    A windfall for county

    Based on that, sales tax in Erie County has climbed from an estimated 10.7 cents a gallon at the beginning of the year to 14.06 recently, a 31 percent increase. The figures use an estimate of wholesale prices, on which the tax is based, at 90 percent of the pump price.

    The rising cost of fuel may be contributing to a surge in tax revenue for Erie County, Comptroller Mark C. Poloncarz said. Sales tax revenue is up 5.15 percent for the first nine months of the year.

    However, he said, gasoline’s contribution is too small to explain much of the jump. He attributes the increase to higher retail sales, based on feedback from retailers.

    The source of the increase isn’t known because it takes about a year for the county to receive a breakdown of sales tax collections from the state, which collects on behalf of local governments.

    In Erie County, gasoline contributes between 7 percent and 8 percent of the $625 million total intake from sales tax, according to 2006 figures. Forty-six percent of sales tax revenue is shared with towns and villages.

    Whether to revisit the cap “is not my call,” Poloncarz said. “It’s up to the county legislature and county executive to decide.”

    At current prices, Erie and local governments stand to collect about $10 million more than they would have if gas had remained at $2.50. That’s based on local consumption of 351.4 million gallons in 2005, the latest figure available from the state Energy Research and Development Authority. This year’s consumption will likely be lower as drivers strive to conserve.

    “It’s something we think needs to be looked at,” said Wally Smith, president of AAA of Western and Central New York. “As these prices go higher and higher, [local governments] are getting a windfall.”

    In the Albany area, one of the few metropolitan counties to cap its gasoline sales tax, pump prices are a few cents lower than in Western New York, he said.

    State law provides for penalties up to $5,000 a day for businesses that fail to pass on a decrease in sales tax to consumers.

    Would cap really matter?

    But some critics of a cap dispute the benefit to drivers. Since capping its sales tax on gasoline last year, Chautauqua County hasn’t seen a break on prices, County Executive Greg Edwards said.

    “I do not believe Chautauqua County is seeing any benefit,” he said. The 8 cent per gallon cap cost the county about $800,000 in yearly revenue, he said, yet pump prices in neighboring Allegany County are frequently lower.

    fwilliams@buffnews.com
    Erie County can make millions off of a gas tax but cant spend $1 to extend light rail. The reason the NFTA will not extend the light rail is because they say they cannot afford the increased daily operating expenses of running a larger system even if the federal and state government pay the hundreds of millions of dollars (infusion into our local economy) in capital to extend it.

    Now Erie County already provides some money to the NFTA so one has to beg the question....if Erie County is making millions off the gas tax then is it so unfair to ask that a greater proportion be allocated to the transportation of those without access to cars via a light rail extension!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy
    Erie County can make millions off of a gas tax but cant spend $1 to extend light rail. The reason the NFTA will not extend the light rail is because they say they cannot afford the increased daily operating expenses of running a larger system even if the federal and state government pay the hundreds of millions of dollars (infusion into our local economy) in capital to extend it.

    Now Erie County already provides some money to the NFTA so one has to beg the question....if Erie County is making millions off the gas tax then is it so unfair to ask that a greater proportion be allocated to the transportation of those without access to cars via a light rail extension!
    3 Things.

    Like it or not people don't want the light rail in their neighborhood. I have personally heard people tell me they don't want "the people it would bring". It is the perception of many that the “suburbanites” would not use an extended rapid transit system to go TO the city like the “City-Dwellers” would use it to go TO the suburbs.

    You are trying to convince an already over-taxed state and county to provide extra money toward something. We have too many pressing needs in the city to take care of first. Vacant Housing, aging infrastructure, poverty and waterfront development are the “flavor of the day”.

    The NFTA is already an inept, patronage laden, pork fest. Why give more money to them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enough
    3 Things.

    Like it or not people don't want the light rail in their neighborhood. I have personally heard people tell me they don't want "the people it would bring". It is the perception of many that the “suburbanites” would not use an extended rapid transit system to go TO the city like the “City-Dwellers” would use it to go TO the suburbs.

    You are trying to convince an already over-taxed state and county to provide extra money toward something. We have too many pressing needs in the city to take care of first. Vacant Housing, aging infrastructure, poverty and waterfront development are the “flavor of the day”.

    The NFTA is already an inept, patronage laden, pork fest. Why give more money to them?
    vacant housing can be eliminated by ending municipal housing and giving them rental vouchers

    aging infrastructure is a state federal responsibility, heck even sewar and water authority is getting federal money to upgrade and fix leaks

    poverty...well there will always be poor and you will never really help the poor as long as we keep the borders open and allow illegals to take the jobs the poor should be getting....another federal problem....and as long as our state and federal programs provide more benefits to be pregnant, disabled or drug addicted than to work

    waterfront development..and who do you think is going to live and work and shop and visit the waterfront if the light rail isnt connected to the millions of visitors in Niagara Falls, the millions of visitors at the airport, the tens of thousands of daily commuters between UBs 3 campuses.

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    Member HipKat's Avatar
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    The real stupid thing is that if they extended it, more people would have access to it and use it, bringing in more revenue to run it to new stops......


    And GOD I wish the area would regionalize, so that people in the Suburbs and people from the city would knock the chips off of their shoulders.

    For crying out loud, the city came first, and the suburbs were populated by people from the city and the truth is, Buffalo isn't big enough to be split into 5 seperate entities like NYC, et al is..
    Let me articulate this for you:
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    Enough more or less summarizes, for better or for worse, why light rail will never be. It's like asking the KKK to wear off-white sheets...ain't gonna happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy
    vacant housing can be eliminated by ending municipal housing and giving them rental vouchers

    aging infrastructure is a state federal responsibility, heck even sewar and water authority is getting federal money to upgrade and fix leaks

    poverty...well there will always be poor and you will never really help the poor as long as we keep the borders open and allow illegals to take the jobs the poor should be getting....another federal problem....and as long as our state and federal programs provide more benefits to be pregnant, disabled or drug addicted than to work

    waterfront development..and who do you think is going to live and work and shop and visit the waterfront if the light rail isnt connected to the millions of visitors in Niagara Falls, the millions of visitors at the airport, the tens of thousands of daily commuters between UBs 3 campuses.
    I understand where your coming from and personally don't disagree with you. But I think you're trying to send an elementary school child to graduate school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riven37
    I know you are all disappointed I will not be at this year Holiday Party but I stand by my convictions...me no in Buffalo City; bad place, dangerous place. This does not mean you are free to overly drink your self into a stew-per remember, you will be driving your car, and we don't want anyone killed right !

    Have fun, and you can have fun without drinking too much. I also, don't want any of the ladies to cry because I will not be giving out kisses this year. you must control yourselves. There is always next year sweeties. So, have fun, be good, and don't get drunk its the only life you have so, don't lay with it by overly drinking.

    Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good Holiday.

    Love

    Riven aka Rick
    Like it or not, this is the mentality of many about the city. If people don’t want to go to the city, what makes you think they want the city to come to them?

    Before we even think about spending millions on extending the rapid transit system we have to give people a reason to want it.

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    I find that so ironic because I know so many people that would love a light rail extension from downtown to the airport rather than park their cars, I know kids at UB that would rather ride the light rail than those retarded buses between campuses, and no one I know wants to park their car much less drive thru Niagara Falls.....infact...with parking tickets $50 a pop I dont know to many people that want to drive downtown.

    and the people that are most afraid of light rail really dont go anywhere or work anywhere ... their really not the ones going to school, not the ones working and commuting, not the ones that travel, not the ones that go to theater any other regional attraction.

    also...people forget that light rail has cameras....which makes it easier to track who comes into your neighborhood and who leaves and when....than in a car or bus which cant do that!

    but whatever...its not about the fears of the previous generation, Buffalo needs to be built for the success of the next generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy
    I find that so ironic because I know so many people that would love a light rail extension from downtown to the airport rather than park their cars, I know kids at UB that would rather ride the light rail than those retarded buses between campuses, and no one I know wants to park their car much less drive thru Niagara Falls.....infact...with parking tickets $50 a pop I dont know to many people that want to drive downtown.

    and the people that are most afraid of light rail really dont go anywhere or work anywhere ... their really not the ones going to school, not the ones working and commuting, not the ones that travel, not the ones that go to theater any other regional attraction.

    also...people forget that light rail has cameras....which makes it easier to track who comes into your neighborhood and who leaves and when....than in a car or bus which cant do that!

    but whatever...its not about the fears of the previous generation, Buffalo needs to be built for the success of the next generation.
    This isn't about the "kids at UB". This is about the 45 year old accountant that works in Amherst and goes home every night. He doesn't have any reason to go downtown, but to maybe 1 sabres game a year and even then he wouldn't think of riding the light rail in a million years out of fear of being mugged. He's not hopping the the light rail to Chippewa to go drinking until 4am. And quite honestly screw the kids at UB, they aren't the ones paying for it!

    Like I said before, the "PERCEPTION" of the average person is that they don't want to go to "the hood" and they don't want "the hood" coming to them. How do you overcome that????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy
    I find that so ironic because I know so many people that would love a light rail extension from downtown to the airport rather than park their cars.

    Come on Timmy. This is just stupid. People who park at the airport are coming from areas that are not going to be serviced by light rail. People who live within 30 minutes of the airport either get a ride or take a cab.

    I like mass transit and all but an extension to the airport is stupid. The only thing it would help is people from outside of Buffalo who need to go downtown. Like it or not, this is not enough to reason an extension to the airport....yet.



    I know kids at UB that would rather ride the light rail than those retarded buses between campuses.

    This idea has some merit. I think with TBM's being able to dig tunnel without disturbing above ground, this could and should happen in the next 10 years. It does not have to have a single stop in Amherst outside of the campus. However, if they were to do this, I think they should run North along NF Blvd from UB South to the Boulevard Mall and then head North West to UB North.

    and no one I know wants to park their car much less drive thru Niagara Falls.....infact...with parking tickets $50 a pop I dont know to many people that want to drive downtown.

    I never minded driving to NF. It is always and I never had trouble finding a great parking space. It is empty as long as you stay on the US side of the boarder.


    The people that are most afraid of light rail really don't go anywhere or work anywhere ... their really not the ones going to school, not the ones working and commuting, not the ones that travel, not the ones that go to theater any other regional attraction.

    AHH TIMMY... but they are the ones PAYING for it.


    also...people forget that light rail has cameras....which makes it easier to track who comes into your neighborhood and who leaves and when....than in a car or bus which cant do that!

    but whatever...its not about the fears of the previous generation, Buffalo needs to be built for the success of the next generation.

    Buffalo needs some common sense.

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    Yeah! And how many people have been mugged or been the subjects of Violence in the history of the light rail?? Because I just don't remember a whole lot of stories about that happening.

    Maybe the light rail needs a new advertising campaign promoting the safety of it.

    BTW, if it ran all night, I never would have driven home drunk from downtown, which I used to do with regularity (Drunk enough to not pass a sobriety test anyhow).

    A quick ride to the Amerst station and then a short walk home to Hertel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HipKat
    Yeah! And how many people have been mugged or been the subjects of Violence in the history of the light rail?? Because I just don't remember a whole lot of stories about that happening.

    Maybe the light rail needs a new advertising campaign promoting the safety of it.

    BTW, if it ran all night, I never would have driven home drunk from downtown, which I used to do with regularity (Drunk enough to not pass a sobriety test anyhow).

    A quick ride to the Amerst station and then a short walk home to Hertel.
    I never said anyone has ever been mugged on the light rail. It's the PERCEPTION OF IT AND DOWNTOWN IN GENERAL.

    What I'm saying is this:

    If you start trying to push for it now you are going to be met with such opposition it would delay any progress for another 15 years. Before you even think of extending the light rail you have to get people to feel comfortable about downtown and change the attitudes.

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    Oh, I know, that's why I said they need an ad campaign that can erase that perception

    Alot of these threads feed into each other unbtil it's the proverbial snake eating it's own tail.
    People will feel good about downtown when there's more to feel good about.
    And there won't be more to feel good about untul people feel good about downtown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enough
    Before we even think about spending millions on extending the rapid transit system we have to give people a reason to want it.
    Well hows $4 gasoline and highways that are at capacity with limited ability to expand

    Quote Originally Posted by Enough
    Like I said before, the "PERCEPTION" of the average person is that they don't want to go to "the hood" and they don't want "the hood" coming to them. How do you overcome that????
    Buffalo still has almost 300,000 and except for Elmwood and Hertel is horribly underserved by retail so one can start with allowing the population of Buffalo regardless of income to actually have the ability to shop....that would help the local business community

    the same could be said for downtown hotels and culturals and sports

    lets also not forget that business travelers would like downtown offices better if they were directly connected to the airport, and I know alot of business travelers that hate short term and long term parking

    and it wouldnt hurt to heavily publicize that cameras are at every light rail station and on every train.....so criminals or even those planning some sort of crime would have their dates and time recorded on film.

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    Unregistered Enough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy
    Well hows $4 gasoline and highways that are at capacity with limited ability to expand



    Buffalo still has almost 300,000 and except for Elmwood and Hertel is horribly underserved by retail so one can start with allowing the population of Buffalo regardless of income to actually have the ability to shop....that would help the local business community

    the same could be said for downtown hotels and culturals and sports

    lets also not forget that business travelers would like downtown offices better if they were directly connected to the airport, and I know alot of business travelers that hate short term and long term parking

    and it wouldnt hurt to heavily publicize that cameras are at every light rail station and on every train.....so criminals or even those planning some sort of crime would have their dates and time recorded on film.
    Don't disagree Timmy, but ya gotta win over the majority.

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