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Thread: Can someone define what "affordable" housing is supposed to be?

  1. #31
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    I totally agree that most of the past new-housing designs have not been very urban and could easily fit more people in a smaller footprint.

    In this case for the HUD relocation in the fruitbelt, I haven't seen specific design proposals. Are they online somewhere?

  2. #32
    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftWNYbecauseofBS View Post
    I never said:

    • There was not a disparity between the FMV of the two houses.
    • That the person living in the more expensive house does not pay more



    What I did say was:

    • Anyone who lives in an area where there is a 100% swing between neighbors is a fool.


    Owning a home is not a right and it is a risk. A homeowner can protect themselves by living in areas with less risk.


    You feel that a difference in property taxes = subsidized housing. While I see where you are going with that and it is a pretty broad stroke you are using. It is also not the correct use of the term, which is common for morons.

    Say you have a high end community that does not have any housing that residents get assistance to live there. While there may be a disparity between a $1M home and a $750k home around the corner, both homeowners are living there by choice. Now if the government was helping either resident live there, that would be one thing. But that is not the case. Both owners made the choice to move there and continue to make the choice to stay.

    One more thing, and I am using a broad stroke as well, is your comment that someone who pays more in property taxes does not get more in services. While I can agree with that logic, it has flaws.

    For example, say a new subdivision is created on 420 acres. That new subdivision is made up of 420 - 1acre lots and has 2 miles of roads. Next to that subdivision you have another 420 acres and in that subdivision you have 2 miles of roads with 840 homes on a .5 acre lot.

    Using your 25/1000 tax levy...

    420 in the first development at $500k per house is 5.25M in property taxes.

    840 homes in the second development at $300k is $6.3M in property taxes.

    So using your logic, the first development is 'subsidizing' the second right? After all, the $500k homes are paying more in taxes than the $300k homes.

    What if the second development is filled with garden homes mostly used by empty nesters and the first is filled with all single families? Subdivision A has 600 kids in the school system and subdivision B has just 300. How does your math work out then?

    What about plowing. Both have 2 miles of roads to plow. If it costs the town $10k per year per mile, the cost is the same. However, Subdivision A needs to $47.6 per house to cover the cost. Subdivision B needs to pay $23.8.

    Your methodology only works if you use a specific example with a massive disparity between the two similar properties. This disparity rarely exists, at least in the neighborhoods that I am familiar with. Maybe it is different in your trailer park but I can't speak to that.
    My "methodology" works across the board for all homes in a taxing jurisdiction. The math is simple and can't be debated: everyone who pays less real property tax than someone else is paying is actually living in subsidized housing.

    We could rank the amount of property tax paid by every homeowner in Erie County from 1 to whatever.

    Number 1 is subsidizing the housing of 2 through whatever. Numbers 1 and 2 are subsidizing the housing of numbers 3 through whatever, and so on and so on until we get to the lowest person on the list who has their house subsidized by everyone above them.

    People don't by property taxes by subdivisions - they pay them on individual houses.

    Seniors' and veterans' exemptions are also means of subsidized housing.

    Every homeowner living in Erie county is already living in subsidized housing unless they are the are the highest paying property tax homeowner in Erie County.

    I realize that knowledge can bruise your ego when you thought you had a great case to make about subsidized housing and then were embarrassed to find out you were actually living in subsidized housing yourself.

    It amazes me that people point fingers at something like subsidized housing without the ability to comprehend simple economics of their own use of subsidized housing.

    Reminds me of the idiots who were screaming "keep the federal government's hands off our Medicare!"

  3. #33
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    I realize that knowledge can bruise your ego when you thought you had a great case to make about subsidized housing and then were embarrassed to find out you were actually living in subsidized housing yourself.
    There a difference between who pays what taxes etc... versus physically taking money and building someone a $400,000 apartment.

    THAT is what they are doing not matter how you want to justify it.

    It's bull$#$%. It would be different if you were taking care of elderly/handicapped people but your not. You are giving moderate income people $400,000 apartments at someone else's expense and I suppose the "complex" will have expenses that others, not the people living there will pay for.

    Will those $400,000 apartments or townhouse pay full property taxes? If so how long before they start to contribute some of their "moderate" income back to the community?

    Once someone moves into the $400,,000 apartment others paid for are they there for life if they continue with their "moderate" income level?

  4. #34
    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougles View Post
    Did you forget that NYS and many others allow you to write off your rent to a limit?

    The only thing that the mortgage interest deducaiton did for this nation was to provide people a dumb ass reason to get a 30yr loan instead of a 15 or 20 year loan...

    Only a fool would think that spending a dollar on interest to save $.25 on taxes is a smart thing.

    I would be for getting rid of all deducations (I believe it has been republicans that have been pushing for a flat tax, which does exaclty that).

    Their are a lot of bull **** deducations, like kids, interest, other taxes (I do agree that you shouldn't be taxed twice on the same income) and many others.


    It's all a big circle to no where!
    I agree with a "flat tax" with progressive rates. What the republicans want is a flat tax with regressive rates to burden the lowest income earners the most.

    People don't spend a $1 to save .25. But they do spend a $1 instead of just spending .75 because the rest of the taxpayers are subsidizing their $1 purchase by kicking in the other .25.

    The mortgage interest and real estate tax deductions also subsidize the housing industry itself, including builders and real estate brokers.:

    Moody’s Analytics Chief Economist Mark Zandi has some bold advice for the housing industry: It should push to limit the mortgage interest and property tax deductions that have helped to fuel U.S. home sales for decades.

    And the industry shouldn’t be shy about its support for such action either, Mr. Zandi argued Wednesday in Washington. Rather, it should “get out ahead of this” and “lead the way,” he said.

    Scaling back such deductions is “the most logical way” to help plug the budget deficit and reduce the federal subsidy for housing, Mr. Zandi said.

    That argument isn’t so unusual: Plenty of people have criticized the mortgage interest tax deduction as a costly subsidy that has skewed the economy too much toward the housing sector.

    But Mr. Zandi made the suggestion to an unsympathetic audience at a real-estate forum hosted by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. To judge by one audience member, it fell flat. The woman, who described herself as a real-estate investor, said she was bothered by Mr. Zandi’s suggestion and asked him to clarify.

    Mr. Zandi didn’t back off. “There is no other sector in the economy that has received more support than your industry, and it’s time to give back,” he told the woman.

    Wall Street Journal: Zandi on Housing: ‘Stop Subsidizing Housing Industry with Tax Deductions’
    So yes, lets reconsider subsidized housing - but not just some of it, all of it. We can't eliminate subsidized housing without eliminating ad valorem real property taxes, without eliminating all exemptions for real property taxes, and without eliminating the mortgage interest and real estate tax deductions.

    People who jump on the idea of eliminating or reducing subsidize housing for the poor and moderate income earners get their panties in knots when someone suggest that they should also give up their own subsidize housing.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    I agree with a "flat tax" with progressive rates. What the republicans want is a flat tax with regressive rates to burden the lowest income earners the most.

    People don't spend a $1 to save .25. But they do spend a $1 instead of just spending .75 because the rest of the taxpayers are subsidizing their $1 purchase by kicking in the other .25.

    The mortgage interest and real estate tax deductions also subsidize the housing industry itself, including builders and real estate brokers.:



    So yes, lets reconsider subsidized housing - but not just some of it, all of it. We can't eliminate subsidized housing without eliminating ad valorem real property taxes, without eliminating all exemptions for real property taxes, and without eliminating the mortgage interest and real estate tax deductions.

    People who jump on the idea of eliminating or reducing subsidize housing for the poor and moderate income earners get their panties in knots when someone suggest that they should also give up their own subsidize housing.
    The mass majority of people who are on sec 8 or Sub housing dont' pay taxes as it is.
    "I know you guys enjoy reading my stuff because it all makes sense. "

    Dumbest post ever! Thanks for the laugh PO!

  6. #36
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    So yes, lets reconsider subsidized housing - but not just some of it, all of it. We can't eliminate subsidized housing without eliminating ad valorem real property taxes, without eliminating all exemptions for real property taxes, and without eliminating the mortgage interest and real estate tax deductions.

    People who jump on the idea of eliminating or reducing subsidize housing the poor and moderate income earners get their panties in knots when someone suggest that they should also give up their own subsidize housing.
    You really stretch it.

    The physical home is not subsidized through property taxes. I would say "services" could be a stretch and say they are being subsidized.

    You can justify taking care of the very elderly/handicapped with low incomes.... I really don't know how anyone can justify giving moderate income people anything. WHY? Linda? You said "deserving". Why?

  7. #37
    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    There a difference between who pays what taxes etc... versus physically taking money and building someone a $400,000 apartment.
    Nope. Economist and the US Treasury know better than that.

    Whether the government gives you $100 grant to help you buy a home or reduces your income tax burden by $100 to buy a home, results in the same economic outcome - you got $100 from your fellow citizens.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Number 1 is subsidizing the housing of 2 through whatever. Numbers 1 and 2 are subsidizing the housing of numbers 3 through whatever, and so on and so on until we get to the lowest person on the list who has their house subsidized by everyone above them.

    Except that doesn't make any sense, which you most likely know and are too thin skinned to admit.
    Go kick a dog, gramps.

  9. #39
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    People who jump on the idea of eliminating or reducing subsidize housing for the poor and moderate income earners get their panties in knots when someone suggest that they should also give up their own subsidize housing.
    The tax break on mortgage interest is already available to everyone, rich and poor. The truly "subsidized" home are subsidized radically further by selling a house to someone for $50,000 when it's actual build-value is $150,000. (Especially if we are spending $400,000 just to build a $150,000 house.) I don't think that can be equally compared to someone receiving some money back as a tax refund for a house they purchased at full market value and is taxed at full market value.

  10. #40
    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    You really stretch it.

    The physical home is not subsidized through property taxes. I would say "services" could be a stretch and say they are being subsidized.

    You can justify taking care of the very elderly/handicapped with low incomes.... I really don't know how anyone can justify giving moderate income people anything. WHY? Linda? You said "deserving". Why?
    There is no stretch at all.

    Real estate taxes are a cost of housing. Period, no if, ands, or buts about it.

    For those who borrow money to purchase a home, which is nearly everyone, interest on the loan is a cost of their housing. no if, ands, or buts about it.

    When those cost are subsidized by other citizens, the beneficiaries are living in housing subsidized by their fellow citizens. No ifs, ands. or buts about it.

  11. #41
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Every homeowner living in Erie county is already living in subsidized housing unless they are the are the highest paying property tax homeowner in Erie County.

    Generalizations are the tool of a lazy mind.

  12. #42
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    I totally agree that most of the past new-housing designs have not been very urban and could easily fit more people in a smaller footprint.

    In this case for the HUD relocation in the fruitbelt, I haven't seen specific design proposals. Are they online somewhere?

    I am pretty sure the first picture is what is being planned. I could be wrong...

  13. #43
    Tony Fracasso - Admin
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    http://www.amazon.com/Habitat-Humani.../dp/1561585327






    I want to find something related about this for Buffalo. I did find this


    http://www.orangehabitat.org/about-us/

    What does Habitat for Humanity of Orange County do and how does it work?

    Habitat invites people from all walks of life to work together in partnership to build houses with families. Habitat for Humanity is not a charity or a give-away program. Habitat for Humanity offers homeownership to Orange County families who otherwise may not have the opportunity to own a home of their own. Volunteer labor is used to build homes to keep costs low for Habitat families. Families pay $1000 in closing costs and invest 325 hours of labor into building their own homes and the homes of others. Habitat provides a zero-interest mortgage of $72,500 and homeowners pay monthly mortgage payments of around $450 directly to Habitat. As Habitat homeowners pay their mortgages, the money is used to help build homes with other families. Habitat for Humanity of Orange County also contributes to building Habitat homes overseas by tithing a “home for a home.” For every home built in Orange County, HHOC tithes $4,250, the cost to build a Habitat home internationally. Since our start in 1984, HHOC has built more than 160 homes locally.
    zero-interest mortgage of $72,500

    I dont know about land cost but 60,000,000 / $72,500 = 827 homes that can be taxed.

    Found this:



    http://www.charlestonhabitat.org/hom...s_q_and_a.html

    How much does a new construction Habitat house cost?
    A Habitat house costs approximately $60,000 to build. A new Habitat homeowner will only pay what it cost to build the house.

    How much are the monthly payments?
    The average monthly payment is between $350 and $450 depending on house style, location and length of mortgage; this includes an escrow payment for taxes, termite bond and insurance, but does not include any utilities.

    How does a Habitat mortgage work?
    Habitat acts as the lender for a 20-30 year interest free mortgage. The money that families pay back is channeled into the construction of more Habitat homes for other families.

    Do I have to work to help in the construction of the house?
    Yes. One of the most vital elements of the Habitat ministry is the partnership between new homeowners and the local Habitat affiliate. The most important connection between families and Habitat is sweat equity. Sweat Equity refers to the actual hands-on participation of partner families. Families are required to complete 500 hours of sweat equity before moving into their new home.

    Do I need to know anything about construction?
    No. Construction experience is not necessary. Habitat construction supervisors will teach you all that you need to know to complete building tasks. Partner families will attend a tool training before you start on site.

    Can I start my sweat equity hours whenever I want?
    No, we ask that you begin your sweat equity hours once you have been selected. However we do encourage you to come out and volunteer to see if the partnership would be something you could commit to.

    How long does it take to get a Habitat house?
    The length of time to get a house will vary. On average the family selection process takes 3-4 months and construction takes 6-8 months.

    Where does Charleston Habitat build?
    Charleston Habitat builds only in the cities of Charleston and North Charleston. So you would have to be willing to live in neighborhoods in those cities.

    How do I qualify for a Habitat house?
    Please see the Family Selection Criteria

    Do you have to be Christian to become a Habitat homeowner?
    Habitat for Humanity was founded and will always be a Christian ministry. However homeowners are selected without regard to creed, both in keeping with the requirements of the law and Habitat’s belief that God’s love extends to all regardless of race, religion, marital status, gender or nationality.

    Do you have to have a job to become a Habitat Homeowner?
    Habitat requires that you earn enough money to use no more than 25% of your annual income to pay the approximate $350 monthly mortgage payments. While some Habitat homeowners may receive public assistance, most have jobs. Habitat for Humanity works in good faith with people who are at risk financially, knowing that owning a home is not the answer to every problem, but can be an important step- often the first step- toward breaking the cycle of poverty.

    Do you have to be a US citizen to become a Habitat homeowner?
    You must be either a US citizen or permanent resident to qualify for a Habitat house.

    What if I have a lot of debt?
    Upon reception of your application we will make a detailed analysis. The biggest problem is what we call “bad” debt- which includes accounts in collections, charged off, or the subject of a legal judgment. All of your bad debt must be paid off before you can actually buy a Habitat house. You will also be referred to a Credit Counseling service so that you can get help in resolving debt and credit issues.

    Your “current” debt -which is debt in good standing- including our mortgage must not require monthly payments of more than 40% of your gross family income.

    Can I qualify if I am handicapped?
    Yes, we will make special arrangements by which you can satisfy Habitat’s “Sweat Equity” requirements.

    When can I apply for a Habitat house?
    We are not accepting any applications at this time. You can, however, call the Charleston Habitat Office at 722-7145, and we will send you a brochure with complete details of the home ownership program.

    When is the next Family Orientation Meeting?
    The specific date of the next Family Orientation meeting has not yet been determined. Please keep checking this page for updates.


    Works for these families

    http://www.charlestonhabitat.org/com..._projects.html

    What makes the 150 families deserving of $400,000 apartments?



  14. #44
    Member leftWNYbecauseofBS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WNYresident View Post
    BINGO BINGO BINGO


    It's BULL$#@# at our expense. Unless these people are handicapped and can't fend for themselves, or elderly and can't fend for themselves why are we subsidizing them. This is the time to take 150 moderate income families and let them fill up some empty homes or apartments in buffalo.

    Because you can get elected by giving away things. Subsidized housing being one of the best tools.


    I see no point in trying to debate if this type of housing should be done, mostly because anyone with common sense would agree that most people in government subsidized housing could live on their own and it still would not change a damn thing. There are too many who do not have common sense to see that or are simply living in said housing that it will not change anything.

    I think the best path, at least the one that can be controlled is what return you can give for providing it.

  15. #45
    Member nogods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    The tax break on mortgage interest is already available to everyone, rich and poor. The truly "subsidized" home are subsidized radically further by selling a house to someone for $50,000 when it's actual build-value is $150,000. (Especially if we are spending $400,000 just to build a $150,000 house.) I don't think that can be equally compared to someone receiving some money back as a tax refund for a house they purchased at full market value and is taxed at full market value.
    Actually, the higher your mortgage interest and real estate taxes the greater is your subsidized housing through the federal tax deduction, although there is penalty of sorts because the greater your real estate tax, the nore you are paying to subsidize housing of people below your level of property tax.

    But the point isn't how much one receives for subsidize housing, which could only be calculated on each individual's circumstances.

    The point is that the people objecting to subsidize housing are usually saying "I object to subsidized housing for them. My subsidized housing is perfectly OK because I don't realize I'm living in subsidize housing, or my subsidized housing is disguised through the tax system, or my subsidized housing is not as great as their subsidized housing."

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