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Thread: I Took a Pistol Permit Course-Yikes!

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    I Took a Pistol Permit Course-Yikes!

    It was several years ago and it was given at a gun shop. I never followed through in part because my classmates scared the heck out of me. The course was good...basic safety and review of the laws surrounding guns. The instructor had a tremendous respect for guns. He talked about making the decision to use a gun. I remember his saying that if you use a gun against another person, even if you are 100% justified, your lif is basically over. There is overwhelming psychological trauma. There is the police investigation and media attention. And, of course, the inevitable civil suit. I recall the instructor talking about encountering a burglar. He said that if you see a guy carrying your TV out of your house in the middle of the night, it is much better to call the cops an let him go. I came out of the course believing that you could only use deadly force to save your life. Apparently, you can use deadly force to stop a burglar in your home. There was a discussion period where the instructor asked why we were interested in obtaining a pistol. That's when I got scared. One of my classmates wanted a pistol so he could intimidate and protect himself in case a driver cut him off. He then presented scenarios and asked if shooting was justified. My classmates almost always said yes and they were almost always wrong. During a break the instructor showed us the guns that were for sale He said new shooter usually begin with .22 caliber pistols. The Guido's in my class wanted to see these freaking monster cannons. The instructor told them they were special weapons and inappropriate for a new shooter. They didn't care. That's what scared me... the attitude of some people wanting guns.
    I never followed through, but maybe I should have.

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    Member Bioguy231's Avatar
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    A lot of people have seen one too many Dirty Harry movies.
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    Member Chant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by equinox View Post
    It was several years ago and it was given at a gun shop. I never followed through in part because my classmates scared the heck out of me.

    This I don't understand? Your classmates scared you, so you yourself decided you didn't want to be armed?

    The course was good...basic safety and review of the laws surrounding guns. The instructor had a tremendous respect for guns. He talked about making the decision to use a gun. I remember his saying that if you use a gun against another person, even if you are 100% justified, your lif is basically over.

    Your life may have gotten more difficult - thanks to lawyers and judges who love the cash cows criminals are to them - but at least you're not dead. That's the important part. You get to see your kids again and get to know your grandchildren. You can't do that if you've been murdered.


    There is overwhelming psychological trauma.

    This I think is way over-rated. Its not pleasent to have to kill anyone, and modern society has repeatedly pounded it onto its members' heads that its extremely bad to kill another person. However, you will notice that some criminals aren't concerned with that issue. When it comes down to a lethal force situation, chances are the choice has already been made for you by the other person. If you're going to carry a weapon for self-defense, you better already have made the decision that you are going to use it to save your life, or the life of another person that you are responsible for. You also have to accept right from the start that this event might actually happen to you someday. You hope it never does, but be ready in case it does. (And I'm sure somebody will that to jump all over this, saying I don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about. To them I say, "Sorry... but I do. I've been through it, and I've been fine with what I had to do because it was a case of him or me. Not much of a choice when it came down to it.)


    There is the police investigation

    Yes there will be. Read any of the books by Massad Ayoob. He goes into great detail about the aftermath of a justified shooting. He also gives very good advice on how to go about carrying a firearm for self-defense. He's a cop, and a professional witness in justified self-defense cases.



    and media attention.

    Yes there will be also. Never - under any circumstances - talk to the media after a shooting. They are not your friend, and it will make it harder for your lawyer to defend you.

    And, of course, the inevitable civil suit.

    Yup, either the scumbag who forced you to shoot them or their family. But still, your other option was being either serious hurt or killed yourself. Thank the lawyers and court system for this crap.

    I recall the instructor talking about encountering a burglar. He said that if you see a guy carrying your TV out of your house in the middle of the night, it is much better to call the cops an let him go.

    Material things are not worth killing someone over. Besides, if someone steals my TV, I think spending time in jail as somebody's girlfriend is a better punishment for them.

    I came out of the course believing that you could only use deadly force to save your life.

    The best rule to follow. Get yourself a copy of the Article 35 Penal Codes and read them.


    Apparently, you can use deadly force to stop a burglar in your home.

    Again, not worth it unless they are a threat to you.

    There was a discussion period where the instructor asked why we were interested in obtaining a pistol. That's when I got scared. One of my classmates wanted a pistol so he could intimidate and protect himself in case a driver cut him off.

    He probably lost his permit and guns the first time someone reported his plate number to the police for being that stupid anyway. Might have done some jail time too.


    He then presented scenarios and asked if shooting was justified. My classmates almost always said yes and they were almost always wrong.

    Not surprising. Many people don't know when they can and can't use a weapon for self-defense legally. That's why you should read the 35 penal codes.


    During a break the instructor showed us the guns that were for sale He said new shooter usually begin with .22 caliber pistols.

    Many "new" shooters do... but many also already have experience shooting handguns that belong to other people already, so they already know what they want.

    The Guido's in my class wanted to see these freaking monster cannons. The instructor told them they were special weapons and inappropriate for a new shooter. They didn't care. That's what scared me... the attitude of some people wanting guns.


    Seeing you didn't clearify what you mean by "freaking monster cannons", I have no idea if you're talking about a .357mag or a .454 Casull (? spelling). I see nothing wrong with a new shooter picking up a .357 because you can also shoot .38 special out of it. It will handle any situation from target shooting to hunting to self-defense.
    Also - you have no idea of what your other classmates' experience with firearm actually was to be judging their choice of handgun. They could want them for any reason from self-defense, to hunting, to needing it for a job as an armed guard. In those cases, a .22 just isn't going to cut it. In the case of jobs, some companies specify what calibers you can and can't carry.
    But I do agree, somebody with no experience what-so-ever should start out with a .22. Though I'd hope they'd be smart enough to have found somebody with experience to teach them before taking the class.




    I never followed through, but maybe I should have.
    You probably should have. Because your classmates might have been freaks was no reason to drop going for your own permit. People abuse items all the time and there's not much you can do about their stupidity. After a certain amount of time, your class certificate expires and you have to retake the course. Also, last I heard the waiting time for permit applications to be approved was about 2 years long. I'm not sure what it is now.
    I use to support the permit system - only because it required a person who might not know a thing about guns to take a safety course... but after seeing the way the judges and the courts screw everyone around with what is a constitutional right, I've pretty much turned against the concept.

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    Member NBuffaloResident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chant View Post
    This I think is way over-rated. Its not pleasent to have to kill anyone, and modern society has repeatedly pounded it onto its members' heads that its extremely bad to kill another person. However, you will notice that some criminals aren't concerned with that issue. When it comes down to a lethal force situation, chances are the choice has already been made for you by the other person. If you're going to carry a weapon for self-defense, you better already have made the decision that you are going to use it to save your life, or the life of another person that you are responsible for. You also have to accept right from the start that this event might actually happen to you someday. You hope it never does, but be ready in case it does. (And I'm sure somebody will that to jump all over this, saying I don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about. To them I say, "Sorry... but I do. I've been through it, and I've been fine with what I had to do because it was a case of him or me. Not much of a choice when it came down to it.)
    You, obviously, haven't had the "pleasure" of shooting and killing someone. And, if you have, and consider the weight placed on your shoulders of killing someone (Justified or not) to be "not that bad", then you, sir are what is known as a "psychopath".

    Psychopaths are the ones who do not feel "guilt" over ending someone's life.
    Raptor Jesus: He went extinct for your sins.

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    A healthy respect sure,,, but if you hesitate using justifiable deadly force then you are dead.

    I don't ever want another person to be able to decide wether I live or die.

    As far as the TV or anything else is concerned a few hundred bucks is not worth if for me losing time at work for depositions etc. etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NBuffaloResident View Post
    You, obviously, haven't had the "pleasure" of shooting and killing someone. And, if you have, and consider the weight placed on your shoulders of killing someone (Justified or not) to be "not that bad", then you, sir are what is known as a "psychopath".

    Psychopaths are the ones who do not feel "guilt" over ending someone's life.
    Hey... its a party now! NBR is here to give us his 'educated' opinion.

    As usual... you either don't read the post... or understand what you're reading. To make it easier for you, I'll repeat... "YES, I HAVE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION."

    If surviving a murder attempt and not "feeling bad" about it makes me a "psychopath", then so be it. I prefer to think of myself as a survivor.
    But as I doubt that you have a license to practice any type of medicine... I'm going to give your medical opinion on my mental state all the credit its due... NONE!

    By the way... when you feel "guilt" over doing something. It implies that something you did was wrong. I don't feel that me surviving an attempt on my life was wrong in any way, shape, or form. So I have nothing to feel "guilty" about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chant View Post
    Hey... its a party now! NBR is here to give us his 'educated' opinion.

    As usual... you either don't read the post... or understand what you're reading. To make it easier for you, I'll repeat... "YES, I HAVE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION."

    If surviving a murder attempt and not "feeling bad" about it makes me a "psychopath", then so be it. I prefer to think of myself as a survivor.
    But as I doubt that you have a license to practice any type of medicine... I'm going to give your medical opinion on my mental state all the credit its due... NONE!

    By the way... when you feel "guilt" over doing something. It implies that something you did was wrong. I don't feel that me surviving an attempt on my life was wrong in any way, shape, or form. So I have nothing to feel "guilty" about.
    I personally think you're lying about "surviving that situation". I've probably killed more people than yourself, being much more clearly justified (War time), and it weighs on me every day.

    And, I'm not alone on this either. Ask any GI. But, no, feeling guilt does not necessarily imply you were in the wrong. It's the natural response to ending the life of a person. Also known as "empathy", and the people who lack the ability to feel empathy are known as psychopaths. Plain and simple.

    Sure, I do think that one has every right to defend (With deadly force if needed) themselves, and their family. But don't for a second act like,"It's no big ****ing deal". And if you truly feel that way, there are two reasons:

    a) You're lying about being in the situation
    or
    b) You're a psychopath
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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Us View Post
    A healthy respect sure,,, but if you hesitate using justifiable deadly force then you are dead.

    I don't ever want another person to be able to decide wether I live or die.

    As far as the TV or anything else is concerned a few hundred bucks is not worth if for me losing time at work for depositions etc. etc.
    Well put.
    Raptor Jesus: He went extinct for your sins.

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    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chant View Post
    Hey... its a party now! NBR is here to give us his 'educated' opinion.

    As usual... you either don't read the post... or understand what you're reading. To make it easier for you, I'll repeat... "YES, I HAVE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION."

    If surviving a murder attempt and not "feeling bad" about it makes me a "psychopath", then so be it. I prefer to think of myself as a survivor.
    But as I doubt that you have a license to practice any type of medicine... I'm going to give your medical opinion on my mental state all the credit its due... NONE!

    By the way... when you feel "guilt" over doing something. It implies that something you did was wrong. I don't feel that me surviving an attempt on my life was wrong in any way, shape, or form. So I have nothing to feel "guilty" about.
    Don't allow others to put some kind of guilt trip on you. A justified shooting is just that! I sincerely hope and pray that neither you or I are put in that situation going forward. God forbid one of us are I also hope and pray that a weapon is readily available in order to thwart the perpetrator and save the life of yourself and anyone in your proximity. If you practice with your weapons every chance you get the odds are going up and in your favor of a predictable outcome if confronted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post
    Don't allow others to put some kind of guilt trip on you. A justified shooting is just that! I sincerely hope and pray that neither you or I are put in that situation going forward. God forbid one of us are I also hope and pray that a weapon is readily available in order to thwart the perpetrator and save the life of yourself and anyone in your proximity. If you practice with your weapons every chance you get the odds are going up and in your favor of a predictable outcome if confronted.
    Nobody should ever have to put a "guilt trip" on a person for killing another person. It's a natural reaction... Unless, of course, one is a psychopath, or a sociopath. Then, they think,"Meh, it's no big deal killing someone."
    Raptor Jesus: He went extinct for your sins.

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    As to the original post, it makes no sense for a person not to obtain a firearm because he or she believes that other people who are obtaining firearms are crazy.

    In fact, in that situation, it makes all the more sense to obtain a firearm for protection against all the other crazy people.

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    Selfish?

    Quote Originally Posted by NBuffaloResident View Post
    Well put.
    WHILE YOU MAY BE THINKING OF YOURSELF...what are the ramifications if your loved ones are victims while you had the opportunity to prevent a criminal act upon them by shooting a perpretator in the act ..or about to...weigh the guilt trip of shooting someone vs. the guilt trip knowing some crime committed against a loved one could of been prevented by you...but were too pansy because of the guilt you may have to incur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    As to the original post, it makes no sense for a person not to obtain a firearm because he or she believes that other people who are obtaining firearms are crazy.

    In fact, in that situation, it makes all the more sense to obtain a firearm for protection against all the other crazy people.
    Let me try to make sense of that for you because, admittedly, it seems like an illogical sentiment. I have fired a gun maybe...ten times in my life (and I'm old). I found myself entering a culture that made me feel uncomfortable. Many of my classmates had a mindset to which I did not relate. A lot of them did not seem to respect the power of firearms nor the consequences of using one on a fellow human being. With all due respect to the majority of responsible gun owners, I didn't want to be a part of them. I also began to realize that up-side of gun ownership was far outweighed by the down-side for me. Does that help?

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    Quote Originally Posted by equinox View Post
    Let me try to make sense of that for you because, admittedly, it seems like an illogical sentiment. I have fired a gun maybe...ten times in my life (and I'm old). I found myself entering a culture that made me feel uncomfortable. Many of my classmates had a mindset to which I did not relate. A lot of them did not seem to respect the power of firearms nor the consequences of using one on a fellow human being. With all due respect to the majority of responsible gun owners, I didn't want to be a part of them. I also began to realize that up-side of gun ownership was far outweighed by the down-side for me. Does that help?
    Only the second to last sentence makes sense (and I'm assuming your reasoning on that issue is rationale.)

    But not owning a gun because you didn't want to be part of a group is a bit silly. Do you think owning a gun requires you take an oath to act and think like others who may be ignorant yahoos that own guns?

    If you applied that same logic, then no normal person would ever be a Bills fan because there are lots of ignorant yahoos who are Bills fans. They get drunk, disrupt other people's enjoyment of the game, drive home and injure or kill people. Apparently, all Bills fan have to agree to act just like them in order to be Bills fans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Only the second to last sentence makes sense (and I'm assuming your reasoning on that issue is rationale.)

    But not owning a gun because you didn't want to be part of a group is a bit silly. Do you think owning a gun requires you take an oath to act and think like others who may be ignorant yahoos that own guns?

    If you applied that same logic, then no normal person would ever be a Bills fan because there are lots of ignorant yahoos who are Bills fans. They get drunk, disrupt other people's enjoyment of the game, drive home and injure or kill people. Apparently, all Bills fan have to agree to act just like them in order to be Bills fans.
    Your Bills reference pretty much proves my point

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