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Thread: Will NYS teachers give up their raises?

  1. #16
    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    Do they care about the Children?

    Union says thousands of posts eliminated, rejects pay freeze despite fiscal crisis
    By MICHAEL GORMLEY, Associated Press

    First published in print: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 ALBANY --

    A study released Tuesday reported New York public schools have dramatically increased hiring during a period of historic increases in state aid and local property taxes even while enrollment declined.

    The report by The Empire Center of the fiscally conservative Manhattan Institute comes as schools, protected by powerful lobbies, have so far avoided deep cuts during the state's fiscal crisis while warning that a proposed cut of 5 percent would force devastating layoffs.

    The Empire Center's report said public schools hired nearly 15,000 teachers and almost 9,000 administrators, guidance counselors and other support workers over the last 10 years as enrollment dropped by more than 121,000 students.

    Read more: http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...#ixzz0jlPVMFgp

    They know how to add when times are good. But don't you ever, ever, ever try to take anything away! They won't even forgo raises to save some of their own. They eat their own young and you think they care about yours???
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  2. #17
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    Raises? Take a look at this...

    Payback Time
    State Debt Woes Grow Too Big to Camouflage
    By MARY WILLIAMS WALSH

    Published: March 29, 2010
    California, New York and other states are showing many of the same signs of debt overload that recently took Greece to the brink — budgets that will not balance, accounting that masks debt, the use of derivatives to plug holes, and armies of retired public workers who are counting on benefits that are proving harder and harder to pay.

    And states are responding in sometimes desperate ways, raising concerns that they, too, could face a debt crisis.
    New Hampshire was recently ordered by its State Supreme Court to put back $110 million that it took from a medical malpractice insurance pool to balance its budget. Colorado tried, so far unsuccessfully, to grab a $500 million surplus from Pinnacol Assurance, a state workers’ compensation insurer that was privatized in 2002. It wanted the money for its university system and seems likely to get a lesser amount, perhaps $200 million.

    Connecticut has tried to issue its own accounting rules. Hawaii has inaugurated a four-day school week. California accelerated its corporate income tax this year, making companies pay 70 percent of their 2010 taxes by June 15. And many states have balanced their budgets with federal health care dollars that Congress has not yet appropriated.

    Some economists fear the states have a potentially bigger problem than their recession-induced budget woes. If investors become reluctant to buy the states’ debt, the result could be a credit squeeze, not entirely different from the financial strains in Europe, where markets were reluctant to refinance billions in Greek debt.

    “If we ran into a situation where one state got into trouble, they’d be bailed out six ways from Tuesday,” said Kenneth S. Rogoff, an economics professor at Harvard and a former research director of the International Monetary Fund. “But if we have a situation where there’s slow growth, and a bunch of cities and states are on the edge, like in Europe, we will have trouble.”

    California’s stated debt — the value of all its bonds outstanding — looks manageable, at just 8 percent of its total economy. But California has big unstated debts, too. If the fair value of the shortfall in California’s big pension fund is counted, for instance, the state’s debt burden more than quadruples, to 37 percent of its economic output, according to one calculation.

    The state’s economy will also be weighed down by the ballooning federal debt, though California does not have to worry about those payments as much as its taxpaying citizens and businesses do.

    Unstated debts pose a bigger problem to states with smaller economies. If Rhode Island were a country, the fair value of its pension debt would push it outside the maximum permitted by the euro zone, which tries to limit government debt to 60 percent of gross domestic product, according to Andrew Biggs, an economist with the American Enterprise Institute who has been analyzing state debt. Alaska would not qualify either.

    State officials say a Greece-style financial crisis is a complete nonissue for them, and the bond markets so far seem to agree. All 50 states have investment-grade credit ratings, with California the lowest, and even California is still considered “average,” according to Moody’s Investors Service. The last state that defaulted on its bonds, Arkansas, did so during the Great Depression.

    Goldman Sachs, in a research report last week, acknowledged the pension issue but concluded the states were very unlikely to default on their debt and noted the states had 30 years to close pension shortfalls.

    Even though about $5 billion of municipal bonds are in default today, the vast majority were issued by small local authorities in boom-and-bust locations like Florida, said Matt Fabian, managing director of Municipal Market Advisors, an independent consulting firm. The issuers raised money to pay for projects like sewer connections and new roads in subdivisions that collapsed in the subprime mortgage disaster.

    The states, he said, are different. They learned a lesson from New York City, which got into trouble in the 1970s by financing its operations with short-term debt that had to be rolled over again and again. When investors suddenly lost confidence, New York was left empty-handed. To keep that from happening again, Mr. Fabian said, most states require short-term debt to be fully repaid the same year it is issued.

    Some states have taken even more forceful measures to build creditor confidence. New York State has a trustee that intercepts tax revenues and makes some bond payments before the state can get to the money. California has a “continuous appropriation” for debt payments, so bondholders know they will get their interest even when the budget is hamstrung.

    The states can also take refuge in America’s federalist system. Thus, if California were to get into hot water, it could seek assistance in Washington, and probably come away with some funds. Already, the federal government is spending hundreds of millions helping the states issue their bonds.

    Professor Rogoff, who has spent most of his career studying global debt crises, has combed through several centuries’ worth of records with a fellow economist, Carmen M. Reinhart of the University of Maryland, looking for signs that a country was about to default.

    One finding was that countries “can default on stunningly small amounts of debt,” he said, perhaps just one-fourth of what stopped Greece in its tracks. “The fact that the states’ debts aren’t as big as Greece’s doesn’t mean it can’t happen.”

    Also, officials and their lenders often refused to admit they had a debt problem until too late.
    “When an accident is waiting to happen, it eventually does,” the two economists wrote in their book, titled “This Time Is Different” — the words often on the lips of policy makers just before a debt bomb exploded. “But the exact timing can be very difficult to guess, and a crisis that seems imminent can sometimes take years to ignite.”

    In Greece, a newly elected prime minister may have struck the match last fall, when he announced that his predecessor had left a budget deficit three times as big as disclosed.

    Greece’s creditors might have taken the news in stride, but in their weakened condition, they did not want to shoulder any more risk from Greece. They refused to refinance its maturing $54 billion euros ($72 billion) of debt this year unless it adopted painful austerity measures.

    Could that happen here?
    In January, incoming Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey announced that his predecessor, Jon S. Corzine, had concealed a much bigger deficit than anyone knew. Mr. Corzine denied it.

    So far, the bond markets have been unfazed.
    Moody’s currently rates New Jersey’s debt “very strong,” though a notch below the median for states. Moody’s has also given the state a negative outlook, meaning its rating is likely to decline over the medium term. Merrill Lynch said on Monday that New Jersey’s debt should be downgraded to reflect the cost of paying its retiree pensions and health care.

    In fact, New Jersey and other states have used a whole bagful of tricks and gimmicks to make their budgets look balanced and to push debts into the future.

    One ploy reminiscent of Greece has been the use of derivatives. While Greece used a type of foreign-exchange trade to hide debt, the derivatives popular with states and cities have been interest-rate swaps, contracts to hedge against changing rates.

    The states issued variable-rate bonds and used the swaps in an attempt to lock in the low rates associated with variable-rate debt. The swaps would indeed have saved money had interest rates gone up. But to get this protection, the states had to agree to pay extra if interest rates went down. And in the years since these swaps came into vogue, interest rates have mostly fallen.

    Swaps were often pitched to governments with some form of upfront cash payment — perhaps an amount just big enough to close a budget deficit. That gave the illusion that the house was in order, but in fact, such deals just added hidden debt, which has to be paid back over the life of the swaps, often 30 years.

    Some economists think the last straw for states and cities will be debt hidden in their pension obligations.
    Pensions are debts, too, after all, paid over time just like bonds. But states do not disclose how much they owe retirees when they disclose their bonded debt, and state officials steadfastly oppose valuing their pensions at market rates.

    Joshua Rauh, an economist at Northwestern University, and Robert Novy-Marx of the University of Chicago, recently recalculated the value of the 50 states’ pension obligations the way the bond markets value debt. They put the number at $5.17 trillion.

    After the $1.94 trillion set aside in state pension funds was subtracted, there was a gap of $3.23 trillion — more than three times the amount the states owe their bondholders.

    “When you see that, you recognize that states are in trouble even more than we recognize,” Mr. Rauh said.
    With bond payments and pension contributions consuming big chunks of state budgets, Mr. Rauh said, some states were already falling behind on unsecured debts, like bills from vendors. “Those are debts, too,” he said.

    In Illinois, the state comptroller recently said the state was nearly $9 billion behind on its bills to vendors, which he called an “ongoing fiscal disaster.” On Monday, Fitch Ratings downgraded several categories of Illinois’s debt, citing the state’s accounts payable backlog. California had to pay its vendors with i.o.u.’s last year.

    “These are the things that can precipitate a crisis,” Mr. Rauh said.
    A version of this article appeared in print on March 30, 2010, on page A1 of the New York edition.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post

    The Empire Center's report said public schools hired nearly 15,000 teachers and almost 9,000 administrators, guidance counselors and other support workers over the last 10 years as enrollment dropped by more than 121,000 students.
    This sums it all up! And meanwhile, scores have NOT increased and our children haven't gotten any smarter!
    "I know you guys enjoy reading my stuff because it all makes sense. "

    Dumbest post ever! Thanks for the laugh PO!

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougles View Post
    This sums it all up! And meanwhile, scores have NOT increased and our children haven't gotten any smarter!
    Nope, but the union workers and leaders have sure gotten a whole lot richer!
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post
    Nope, but the union workers and leaders have sure gotten a whole lot richer!

    The vicious cycle continues..,,,,,,,

  6. #21
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    Ummm..

    Let's think about this logically.

    Do you want the people that take care of our most precious assests aka our little tax write offs, to be underpaid.

    Seriously though. I want to keep the teachers that are dealing with my children happy. If they have to worry about how they are going to pay their bills than that could take away from their focus on our children.
    “Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think.”

  7. #22
    Member mikenold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomesticatedFeminist View Post
    Ummm..

    Let's think about this logically.

    Do you want the people that take care of our most precious assests aka our little tax write offs, to be underpaid.

    Seriously though. I want to keep the teachers that are dealing with my children happy. If they have to worry about how they are going to pay their bills than that could take away from their focus on our children.
    I don't begrudge anyone all the money they can garner for themselves. However, when the money comes out of my hard earned cash, well then I don't want them taking any more than the absolutely need. This is not the case when it comes to teachers unions in NYS. There is plenty of waste and overpaid teachers in the system (see NYC teachers under discipline in room collecting full pay and not doing anything), those out of the system (see teachers health care and pension system), and automatic pay raises (see teachers union contract).

    BTW: don't think for a minute that many teachers are not there because they care a lick about our little rug rats but rather the pay and benefits that they can get for working (let me put this delicately), less than full time.
    **free is a trademark of the current U.S. government.

  8. #23
    Member DomesticatedFeminist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post
    I don't begrudge anyone all the money they can garner for themselves. However, when the money comes out of my hard earned cash, well then I don't want them taking any more than the absolutely need. This is not the case when it comes to teachers unions in NYS. There is plenty of waste and overpaid teachers in the system (see NYC teachers under discipline in room collecting full pay and not doing anything), those out of the system (see teachers health care and pension system), and automatic pay raises (see teachers union contract).

    BTW: don't think for a minute that many teachers are not there because they care a lick about our little rug rats but rather the pay and benefits that they can get for working (let me put this delicately), less than full time.
    That's bs every teacher I have dealt with has cared remarkably about the children and have gone the extra mile to help them.
    “Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think.”

  9. #24
    Member NBuffaloResident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikenold View Post
    I don't begrudge anyone all the money they can garner for themselves. However, when the money comes out of my hard earned cash, well then I don't want them taking any more than the absolutely need. This is not the case when it comes to teachers unions in NYS. There is plenty of waste and overpaid teachers in the system (see NYC teachers under discipline in room collecting full pay and not doing anything), those out of the system (see teachers health care and pension system), and automatic pay raises (see teachers union contract).

    BTW: don't think for a minute that many teachers are not there because they care a lick about our little rug rats but rather the pay and benefits that they can get for working (let me put this delicately), less than full time.
    You're not one for capitalism, huh?

    BTW, why not let the police, fire fighters, military service members know that they only deserve what they "absolutely need" to live on. Not a fair pay

    Psst! Military Service members have built-in pay increases too for each year
    Raptor Jesus: He went extinct for your sins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DomesticatedFeminist View Post
    Ummm..

    Let's think about this logically.

    Do you want the people that take care of our most precious assests aka our little tax write offs, to be underpaid.

    Seriously though. I want to keep the teachers that are dealing with my children happy. If they have to worry about how they are going to pay their bills than that could take away from their focus on our children.
    When the number and pay of teachers has skyrocketed the last ten years and our kids haven't gotten any smarter, maybe we have a problem. Don't you think?
    "I know you guys enjoy reading my stuff because it all makes sense. "

    Dumbest post ever! Thanks for the laugh PO!

  11. #26
    Member 300miles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomesticatedFeminist View Post
    I want to keep the teachers that are dealing with my children happy. If they have to worry about how they are going to pay their bills than that could take away from their focus on our children.
    NY teachers already have the HIGHEST PAY IN THE NATION !

    How much does it take to "keep them happy"??


    It's BS that you are implying a pay cut would mean they couldn't pay their bills. Many of them make more money than we do!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DomesticatedFeminist View Post
    That's bs every teacher I have dealt with has cared remarkably about the children and have gone the extra mile to help them.
    Every one? What about the teachers that are willing to see hundreds of their colleagues laid off because they will not even give up a penny of what they have to save their jobs? They are caring for sure!

    What about the teachers that were unwilling to stay at work for any amount of time to help their students because it wasn't in the contract.

    It is NOT BS!
    **free is a trademark of the current U.S. government.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NBuffaloResident View Post
    You're not one for capitalism, huh?

    BTW, why not let the police, fire fighters, military service members know that they only deserve what they "absolutely need" to live on. Not a fair pay

    Psst! Military Service members have built-in pay increases too for each year
    Capitalism does not apply to public union workers! They do not have to sell anything or make a profit to still get their pay. That is because they just take more from me to give to them. This is NOT capitalism it is redistribution of wealth.

    I have always said that one of the few governments' only jobs is to protect the country and its citizens. So, no, it is not the same thing!
    **free is a trademark of the current U.S. government.

  14. #29
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    Why do public service workers need a union?

    To protect them from their employer....the government?

    does not compute.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 300miles View Post
    NY teachers already have the HIGHEST PAY IN THE NATION !

    How much does it take to "keep them happy"??


    It's BS that you are implying a pay cut would mean they couldn't pay their bills. Many of them make more money than we do!
    Are these pensions, benefits, etc. really needed to attract these workers?

    In the private sector only that necessary to retain a productive worker would be necessary.

    There are retired teachers pulling in 70% of their pay in retirement and they still bitch that they don't have enough.

    In the end it really doesn't matter,, there is only so much money in the pot...what we need is insolvency.. blow the state wide open economically so they have to right themselves.. at this point it is a collision course to bankruptcy.

    Sandy Beach yesterday had a really good show.

    Does anyone really think that continued population flight is the answer? just asking.

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