Extending our failed subway

[grump]

AM&A's/Bon Ton was '95.

You're right, it was '95. By the late 80's store traffic was down to nothing because access to the store had been disrupted for so long that people stopped trying to go. Worked nicely for me...I could run in on my lunch hour and do most of my Christmas shopping in an hour. The chain survived but that's if come even now. Small stores took a beating. That's why the 500, 600, and 700 blocks of Main Street sat dead for years. Only after vehicular traffic was restored did these areas show any sign of life. Turns out that the usual crowd of surly high school delinquents, gang bangers, winos and welfare recipients disgorged by a typical subway run aren't great supporters of retail and other business. Hell, even the fast food places died. Maybe a few criminal lawyers along the way saw an uptick.

[grump]

The canonization by the Fake News of St. John Curtin made me wonder. His antic school "desegregation" plan was implemented at pretty much the same time that NFTA launched the destructive subway project. It is beyond debate for any honest person looking at the historical record that each of these episodes contributed dramatically to the disintegration of the City of Buffalo in the the 1980's. It might make an interesting speculation about whether the city might've been able to survive if it only had to absorb one disaster or maybe one at a time instead of both together.

[OutsidetheBox]

Correlation does not imply causation.

While the construction of the Metro may have caused immediate harm to the Main Street businesses the pedestrian mall is what kept it that way not the Metrorail. Also during the 60s-90s there was generally a shift away from urban America with many central cities seeing a decline. That decline in the city did not have anything to do with the metro once it was established and up and running. As much as you'd love to claim that the downfall was caused by the Metro it really wasn't.

Things have changed significantly since the late 80s in terms of perception of cities and population trends. All one has to do is look at the redevelopment and investment that has occurred in the downtown over the last 5-10 years to see that the City of Buffalo is getting stronger.

[grump]

Again thank you for acknowledging the 30 years it's taken to undo the damage wrought by the subway. The ole "correlation does not prove causation" argument, eh? The last bastion of those defending a position when the evidence is overwhelmingly against them. Done that myself a time or two. The photos at the time provide irrefutable evidence. And by the way it's a stupid argument to say the pedestrian mall caused the damage. It was and continues to be a direct outgrowth of the subway and it's construction. And just so you know all this redevelopment that makes everyone froth at the mouth is just taxpayer subsidy that's gonna dry up soon enough. It turns out a community needs some actual real honest to goodness business to grow and survive.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Grump - Couple of questions.

Do you find subways valuable or do you just have issue with the one in Buffalo?

Do you think if construction was done differently it would have had a different result? For example if they exclusively used tunnels for the entire run and didn't use cut/cover or build the above ground line. A lot of the issues you are mentioning would have been avoided. No?

One has to wonder if the previous job was more about putting people to work and padding the pockets of some companies rather than implementing a subway for the least cost and disturbance to residents and businesses.

All that said, the extension is never going to happen in our lives.

[grump]

Leftie, I hope the extension never happens in the future of the world. Just about every major publicly funded construction project here is about union featherbedding and lining the pockets of the friends of politicians. I thought everyone knew that by now. Cuomo has simply carried the latter to a heretofore unseen level of "in your face" boldness that no one else dared try. The bid rigging here, in Syracuse, in Albany is so shockingly obvious that he clearly feels that he and his contributors are totally above the law. I believe that mass transit (including, subways, street level light rail and other complementary modes) is needed and desirable in many places. WNY ain't one of them! This is an area that, notwithstanding the "reporting" by the Fake News, continues to lose population. And the people who are moving in aren't working; they're being put on welfare just as fast as the Democratic Party and the Catholic Church can manage it. They only trips they need are to social services, social security and the nearest drug den. I've ridden mass transit in other places, NYC, DC, SEPTA in Philly. This is the only place I remember that sneaks ticket checkers on and off trains. It's a make work job for Democrats. Every place else has automated ticket check systems, not here. We have Councilmember X's halfwit sister in law trying to sneak on the train to outwit ticket jumpers, totally asinine. Once you've built a subway or street level train system it's fixed and immovable. Let's invest in economical flexible surface transportation (we can call them "busses") the routes of which can be reviewed and redirected from time to time as demand dictates. My guess is that a couple hundred million dollars would buy a whole bunch of them. My other guess, NFTA won't have to spend 3 or 4 years trying to get them painted like they did with 4 or 5 subway cars a few years back. Better yet, have NFTA contract with Uber to provide real time transit as needed in addition to their current service.

[grump]

Leftie, do some googling and read the change in tone of the articles about NFTA. In 2006 Meckler and the boys would whip 'em out at every opportunity. Eight years later they were talking about a system in confusion, disrepair and disarray; non functioning escalators, even simple things like plexiglass windows broken for years at a time. Since you're not around maybe you missed the mild hubbub caused last fall and winter when putative users of the NFTA's paratransit were left standing in the driving rain and snow and had to be essentially rescued and sheltered by by nearby private businesses. NFTA's response was basically "things are tough all over". The Fake News paid scant attention...had it been a private entity or a Christian or Jewish not-for-profit that showed that degree of callous disregard the Fake News would've been on it like flies on cowsh*t. In my previous post I suggested an NFTA combination with Uber. Allow me to add that, were I advising Uber, any agreement with NFTA would have to a thourough, complete and in depth vetting by the best legal team available. NFTA are past masters at blaming others for their own failures.

[WNYresident]

Leftie, I hope the extension never happens in the future of the world. Just about every major publicly funded construction project here is about union featherbedding and lining the pockets of the friends of politicians.

There is a bell ringer!

Grump nailed it.

[Neubs24]

There is a bell ringer!

Grump nailed it.

The last confirmed mob hit in Buffalo was in the 80's on a Metro construction (Local 210) site.

[grump]

People, let's don't forget...this was not a couple of days disruption while the streets were replaved. This was a massive disruption of traffic and access that lasted for years, including ripping up streets, not just Main St. but Washington St. and others, tearing out sidewalks, redirecting traffic. I worked in that area then and our office had a great view of the lake. We could entice customers into the office sometimes just because they liked the view. But after 3 years of battling their way to our office customers began requesting that we come to them. Their traffic habits changed and within a few years we had to move to the 'burbs to satisfy our customers. That project totally changed the views of people about going downtown...and it wasn't just the pedestrian mall. By the time that was completed the damage was done. Only an idiot would propose making the same mistake again and destroy the retail/office corridor along the Blvd and out to Audobon. And think of the fun it will be to ride the subways with the hundreds of drunks from UB that will be on board. It's not for nothing that they call the bus between campuses the "vomit comet".

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Leftie, I hope the extension never happens in the future of the world. Just about every major publicly funded construction project here is about union featherbedding and lining the pockets of the friends of politicians. I thought everyone knew that by now. Cuomo has simply carried the latter to a heretofore unseen level of "in your face" boldness that no one else dared try. The bid rigging here, in Syracuse, in Albany is so shockingly obvious that he clearly feels that he and his contributors are totally above the law. I believe that mass transit (including, subways, street level light rail and other complementary modes) is needed and desirable in many places. WNY ain't one of them! This is an area that, notwithstanding the "reporting" by the Fake News, continues to lose population. And the people who are moving in aren't working; they're being put on welfare just as fast as the Democratic Party and the Catholic Church can manage it. They only trips they need are to social services, social security and the nearest drug den. I've ridden mass transit in other places, NYC, DC, SEPTA in Philly. This is the only place I remember that sneaks ticket checkers on and off trains. It's a make work job for Democrats. Every place else has automated ticket check systems, not here. We have Councilmember X's halfwit sister in law trying to sneak on the train to outwit ticket jumpers, totally asinine. Once you've built a subway or street level train system it's fixed and immovable.

OK.

So we're on the same page that there is an implementation and management problem with mass transit in WNY but I am not reading there isn't a user issue or demand for actual mass transit. I think we can agree on these points.

Let's invest in economical flexible surface transportation (we can call them "busses") the routes of which can be reviewed and redirected from time to time as demand dictates. My guess is that a couple hundred million dollars would buy a whole bunch of them. My other guess, NFTA won't have to spend 3 or 4 years trying to get them painted like they did with 4 or 5 subway cars a few years back. Better yet, have NFTA contract with Uber to provide real time transit as needed in addition to their current service.

Have a couple of challenges with this.

1 - I have never read or viewed first hand transit oriented development or redevelopment from the addition of a bus line or bus stop or the improvement in a bus schedule.

2 - The cities that I have been in where busses were effective are different from Buffalo. The first is they are more compact. see. San Fransisco. The second, and this is a great irony in my opinion, is that the beloved 'radial grid' layout of the city that lead most to consider Buffalo is one of the best laid out cities is actually harmful to busses. The reason is with a radial grid all points start in close proximity to each other (downtown) but as they move away the lines get farther apart. This of course is different than a straight grid where lines run parallel to each other. Essentially the farther you get from the core the more difficult it is to move around using busses. Cross town connections are a bitch.

[grump]

Leftie, then in a radial grid city the cost of installing and operating rail transit will be even worse than in straight grid cities. The distance between connection will require miles of rail with few to no stops until the cross town connection is reached. At least busses don't need a dedicated rail bed that is available to only one a train. They share the same street you and I do. Buffalo already has interconnecting bus lines that cross the main grid streets, Elmwood, Delaware, Main, Broadway. And rail won't solve the problem of the street grid unless they build a completely independent rail system that creates its own grid. Of course you're talking about expense of construction that would be truly stupefying...oh wait don't tell NFTA I said that or it's exactly what they'll propose. Leftie, this area simply doesn't need the type of infrastructure they're talking about. They can't even maintain what they have now. The system is in decay but NFTA won't admit it

[WNYresident]

1 - I have never read or viewed first hand transit oriented development or redevelopment from the addition of a bus line or bus stop or the improvement in a bus schedule.

Why would a "mode" of transportation that is basically the same not have the same results?

In this case the only difference in the "vehicle" is one is on a fixed track and one is not.

A rider walks up to the door, enters and sits until the next stop. Both are on a schedule.

The only difference is an outside "vehicle" stop versus an inside "vehicle" stop. A bus stop versus a structure you stand in waiting for the subway car. Either way a structure can be built for a bus to give you that "inside" wait for the "vehicle" to pick you up. The bus is "mobile" where as the subway train is "wired".

What is the difference if you made 10 structured bus stops that basically look like subway stations? If the development take off in 10 years you didn't invest millions into track.

People do need to get around who don't have a vehicle. Doesn't mean politically connected developers need to line their pockets off of the needs of a community.

[jennifer7]

Shouldn't take 10 years (2027) to build a light rail extension. Last week ADOT just announced a another Light Rail extention to South Phoenix and it will be completed by 2022, The Valley Light Rail system opened in 2009 and already completed 3 extensions, 2 more extentions are under construction and the Gilbert Rd extension will be completed in 2018, Also Sky Train opened in 2013, one extention was already completed and another extention is under construction, A Street Car System (similar to light rail system will be breaking ground soon & a high speed rail system is shovel ready, just awaiting funding, but first ADOT is building 5 new freeways before they start building phase 1 of high speed rail. Also the Light Rail & Sky Train are connected and the Street Car System & High Speed Rail will also be connected

[WNYresident]

Interesting read

Downtown subway, better bus service matter more than suburban rail, Dallas says

On the brink of a vote about its long-term priorities, Dallas Area Rapid Transit is stuck in the middle of a fight between Dallas and the suburbs about where the money should flow first.
The full Dallas City Council passed a resolution Tuesday asking DART to focus on a downtown subway, bus service improvements and a streetcar extension through the central business district.
Not included in the city's list: the 27-mile Cotton Belt rail line that would cross Far North Dallas on its way to DFW International Airport from Plano. DART plans to accelerate the east-west rail corridor that has long been promised to Dallas' neighbors.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/tran...il-dallas-says




Falling Subway and Bus Ridership in New York


Subway Ridership Declines in New York. Is Uber to Blame?

After a period of soaring subway demand in New York City, ridership dropped last year, and transit officials say the rise of Uber and other car service apps may be partly to blame.

Annual subway ridership fell slightly in 2016 for the first time since 2009, according to statistics from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. Weekday ridership was at its highest level since 1948, but weekend ridership fell about 3 percent, suggesting that New Yorkers and tourists were finding other ways to get around.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/23/n...ridership.html