Town Garbage Totes

The Town of Tonawanda Board will be voting on Garbage Totes tonight. I assume that if things go like normal they'll vote 5-2 shortly after ignoring the people once again.
http://www.tonawanda.ny.us/townclerk...2003-13-06.htm

The Town does have a rat problem, especially on the borders, and totes should fix it. Also Buffalo has totes and we know Buffalo has been a model for government and we're all very jealous of their totes...

On the other hand, my sources tell me there isn't a lot of money to go around this year and upgrading the trucks to take totes will cost in the multiple millions of dollars, each tote will come along with a hefty rental fee. There’s also pure speculation that the trucks will only be able to do one side of a street at a time (ala Kenmore) raising the cost of collection.

Points I'm sure we'll hear tonight will be that.
1. there are rats
2. rats eat garbage
3. garbage costs more to dump if its wet and a container of some type will keep it dry, a tote would fit that bill.
4. Bigger garbage trucks are better

1-3 are definitely valid points. The sad thing is that passing a container law will do the same thing and cost the town (almost) nothing. I've heard arguments that enforcement will be needed, but that’s the same for totes. Next argument I hear is that if its not in a tote you just don't pick it up. There’s two sides to the argument there. 1. If its not in a conforming container don't pick it up or 2. If you don't pick up trash you're not helping the rat problem. So ultimately to get rid of rats someone has to check that people are using containers and possibly give out fines depending on how serious of a rat problem remains, but that has to be done no matter what kind of container is used, a yearly rented one from the town or a el-cheapo can a resident has had for ten years and taken good care of. (The enforcement could pay for itself with fines, again that’s true in both cases.) Only part of the town has rats, but after tonight I'm sure every resident will have to pay that yearly rental fee for a rat-proof can.

Its my position that garbage totes take responsibility out of hands of the people to maintain a ratproof container, spends their money when it doesn't need to be spent and its not even available to spend, and creates a permanent annual burden on the taxpayer in the form of tote rental fees.

Something has to be done, and last years board knew there was a rat problem and sat on their hands. I just don't think this year’s board is going to do the right thing, considering they have their minds made up already... (Maybe I'm kind of a defeatist, but if you observe the poor body language and doubletalk answers that certain board members give their residents who get up to talk, I think you'd understand where I come from.)

Does anyone else have any feelings? This forum seems pretty dead.
Maybe just some guesses on the kinds of doubletalk would be fun. There was a lot of it out of left field last meeting (minutes to all meetings are eventually posted here, usually Cal takes his time though. http://www.tonawanda.ny.us/townboard...mtg%202006.htm)

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Originally Posted by NewPublius

The Town of Tonawanda Board will be voting on Garbage Totes tonight. I assume that if things go like normal they'll vote 5-2 shortly after ignoring the people once again.
http://www.tonawanda.ny.us/townclerk...2003-13-06.htm

The Town does have a rat problem, especially on the borders, and totes should fix it. Also Buffalo has totes and we know Buffalo has been a model for government and we're all very jealous of their totes...

On the other hand, my sources tell me there isn't a lot of money to go around this year and upgrading the trucks to take totes will cost in the multiple millions of dollars, each tote will come along with a hefty rental fee. There’s also pure speculation that the trucks will only be able to do one side of a street at a time (ala Kenmore) raising the cost of collection.

Points I'm sure we'll hear tonight will be that.
1. there are rats
2. rats eat garbage
3. garbage costs more to dump if its wet and a container of some type will keep it dry, a tote would fit that bill.
4. Bigger garbage trucks are better

1-3 are definitely valid points. The sad thing is that passing a container law will do the same thing and cost the town (almost) nothing. I've heard arguments that enforcement will be needed, but that’s the same for totes. Next argument I hear is that if its not in a tote you just don't pick it up. There’s two sides to the argument there. 1. If its not in a conforming container don't pick it up or 2. If you don't pick up trash you're not helping the rat problem. So ultimately to get rid of rats someone has to check that people are using containers and possibly give out fines depending on how serious of a rat problem remains, but that has to be done no matter what kind of container is used, a yearly rented one from the town or a el-cheapo can a resident has had for ten years and taken good care of. (The enforcement could pay for itself with fines, again that’s true in both cases.) Only part of the town has rats, but after tonight I'm sure every resident will have to pay that yearly rental fee for a rat-proof can.

Its my position that garbage totes take responsibility out of hands of the people to maintain a ratproof container, spends their money when it doesn't need to be spent and its not even available to spend, and creates a permanent annual burden on the taxpayer in the form of tote rental fees.

Something has to be done, and last years board knew there was a rat problem and sat on their hands. I just don't think this year’s board is going to do the right thing, considering they have their minds made up already... (Maybe I'm kind of a defeatist, but if you observe the poor body language and doubletalk answers that certain board members give their residents who get up to talk, I think you'd understand where I come from.)

Does anyone else have any feelings? This forum seems pretty dead.
Maybe just some guesses on the kinds of doubletalk would be fun. There was a lot of it out of left field last meeting (minutes to all meetings are eventually posted here, usually Cal takes his time though. http://www.tonawanda.ny.us/townboard...mtg%202006.htm)

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Hmmm. Let me quess. You're a Republican, right? You're also against downsizing the town board, correct?

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Originally Posted by atotaltotalfan2001

Hmmm. Let me quess. You're a Republican, right? You're also against downsizing the town board, correct?

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Yes, I vote Republican at the town level. I think that's obvious from my post (fiscal responsibility, low taxes, smart decisions).

Off-topic:
I'm actually indifferent to downsizing the town board. I think there should be only as many members on the board as necessary to run the town properly. From my understanding the recent push for downsizing the town board is politically motivated (then again what isn't?), so I'm against it for that. But if the Board will function fine then its (R) less taxes or (D) more money for something else.
If you want to respond to this, start a new thread (It won't get lost in that huge list of two topics). Thanks for hi-jacking this one.

As for Garbage, this forum suggested some links after my post. I think this is an interesting read:
http://forums.speakupwny.com/showthread.php?t=4370
It shows that Cheektowaga is interested in the input of its residents. There’s also some unsupported talk of the trucks being unreliable. I don't know if that’s true, but it’s an interesting point if it is.

Anyone have any thoughts about Garbage?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NewPublius

Yes, I vote Republican at the town level. I think that's obvious from my post (fiscal responsibility, low taxes, smart decisions).

Off-topic:
I'm actually indifferent to downsizing the town board. I think there should be only as many members on the board as necessary to run the town properly. From my understanding the recent push for downsizing the town board is politically motivated (then again what isn't?), so I'm against it for that. But if the Board will function fine then its (R) less taxes or (D) more money for something else.
If you want to respond to this, start a new thread (It won't get lost in that huge list of two topics). Thanks for hi-jacking this one.

As for Garbage, this forum suggested some links after my post. I think this is an interesting read:
http://forums.speakupwny.com/showthread.php?t=4370
It shows that Cheektowaga is interested in the input of its residents. There’s also some unsupported talk of the trucks being unreliable. I don't know if that’s true, but it’s an interesting point if it is.

Anyone have any thoughts about Garbage?

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You mean aside from the political points the town Republican Committee hopes to score against the Dem majority by framing the tote issue as taxpayer waste?

Somehow, I smell a rat, one that is more interested in politics than what's best for residents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atotaltotalfan2001

You mean aside from the political points the town Republican Committee hopes to score against the Dem majority by framing the tote issue as taxpayer waste?

Somehow, I smell a rat, one that is more interested in politics than what's best for residents.

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I proposed an alternative solution, do you have any thoughts on it?

I admit that I got wind of this from a friend who is an aquaintence of someone who is close friends with people involved with the Town Republicans, but I don't consider being concerned about taxes from third hand information being a political henchman. I think you'll have better luck playing the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game than trying to tie me to the Town Republicans. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon)

It seems to me that you are trying to frame this in a political light. Why don't you discuss my plan? I think totes will work, but I think my suggestion will work just as well without spending as much money. I came up with it on my own, I don't even know if the town republicans agree as I haven't discussed it with anyone outside of my family until posting it this morning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NewPublius

I proposed an alternative solution, do you have any thoughts on it?

I admit that I got wind of this from a friend who is an aquaintence of someone who is close friends with people involved with the Town Republicans, but I don't consider being concerned about taxes from third hand information being a political henchman. I think you'll have better luck playing the six degrees of Kevin Bacon game than trying to tie me to the Town Republicans. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon)

It seems to me that you are trying to frame this in a political light. Why don't you discuss my plan? I think totes will work, but I think my suggestion will work just as well without spending as much money. I came up with it on my own, I don't even know if the town republicans agree as I haven't discussed it with anyone outside of my family until posting it this morning.

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Okay. I'll take a closer look.

how does it work now? Bags by the side of the road?
Why need a truck with a special pick up arm? Just have the people put sealed bags in a closed can. Garbage man opens can, pulls out nice sealed bag and tosses it into the truck. Move down the street 10 feet and repeat.

Rats can't get to the garbage, but the trucks don't need a special arm.

Strict enforcement of a Closed Container Law is the way to go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharky

how does it work now? Bags by the side of the road?

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I would say that most people have cans, but there are a large number of people that just throw the bags on the curb. Or if you have more garbage than can fit in your can, you throw a bag next to it.

Well I see atotaltotalfan2001 got tired of slinging insults so I'm done here for a while.

I didn't make the board meeting (I knew what was going to happen), but I'm told it was 5-2 for the totes as I had predicted. So this is moot now.

Ah government in action...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NewPublius

I would say that most people have cans, but there are a large number of people that just throw the bags on the curb. Or if you have more garbage than can fit in your can, you throw a bag next to it.

Well I see atotaltotalfan2001 got tired of slinging insults so I'm done here for a while.

I didn't make the board meeting (I knew what was going to happen), but I'm told it was 5-2 for the totes as I had predicted. So this is moot now.

Ah government in action...

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I agree with Rising. Sounds like strict enforcement of a Closed Container law would be good. I take it this is what you were suggesting? Was it ever proposed as an alternative to the totes? I'd be interested to hear what the arguments against it would be.

As far as my framing this issue in a political manner -- well, I know enough about the TOT and its Republicans to know that any and all issues will be used against the evil Democrats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharky

how does it work now? Bags by the side of the road?
Why need a truck with a special pick up arm? Just have the people put sealed bags in a closed can. Garbage man opens can, pulls out nice sealed bag and tosses it into the truck. Move down the street 10 feet and repeat.

Rats can't get to the garbage, but the trucks don't need a special arm.

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Because the local governments have to look like they are busy. Just think, ordering new totes, trucks, and a tote commisioner :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by atotaltotalfan2001

I agree with Rising. Sounds like strict enforcement of a Closed Container law would be good. I take it this is what you were suggesting? Was it ever proposed as an alternative to the totes? I'd be interested to hear what the arguments against it would be.

As far as my framing this issue in a political manner -- well, I know enough about the TOT and its Republicans to know that any and all issues will be used against the evil Democrats.

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Just read in the Record Advertiser that the republicans had proposed a container law along with regulations on bird feed, dog droppings and wood piles, details not available. I hadn't thought about non-trash items but I do remember hearing this past summer that rats eat dog poop.

The argument against a container law was that it would force people to go buy garbage cans and then if it didn't work they would have bought them for nothing when the town did implement totes. Not the greatest argument because I'm sure most people already own containers, they just don't keep them properly/in good repair and if proper container use doesn't stop the rats then totes wouldn't work much better. (Of course one argument against totes is that people will recycle less because you can't see inside them. I don't see many people using clear trashbags.. some bad arguments on both sides).

One positive thing I did get from the article was that totes are estimated at $55. It didn't say explicitly, but it sounds like a one time fee. $55 once doesn't smart as much as a yearly fee, because if you're responsible and take care of your tote you can avoid paying for another one (like recycling bins) for I assume at least 15 years. Where as if your neighbor keeps his outside and lets his kids use his as a jungle gym, he'll need a new one every 3-5 years. My initial 3rd hand information made it sound like the responsible people would be subsidizing their irresponsible neighbors with the yearly fee. I'm guessing that was FUD.

Now that totes are here, I'll accept them. I'll have to pay more for golf and in taxes to make up for the $2 million for the startup, but there’s no use crying over a bad solution, its still a solution.

Ultimately I guess it comes down to blaming those who were in power last year for sitting on their hands. Now we have new people who actually did something (though its going to cost us all much more this way). I wonder if this falls under be careful of what you wish for or if it’s a step in the right direction?