Pataki delays collection of Indian taxes

[Night Owl]

from the Buffalo News
Pataki delays collection of Indian taxes 1/21/2004

ALBANY - Gov. George E. Pataki on Tuesday said the state should delay for at least a year the collection of taxes on the sales of cigarettes and gasoline to non-Indians by tribal retailers. The proposal was immediately derided by some lawmakers and health groups.
Instead of collecting the taxes, Pataki said he will try to negotiate deals with Indian tribes to bring their tax-free goods more in line with prices charged by non-Indians.

With the backdrop of violence the last time the state tried to collect the taxes, Pataki said it is "far better" to work out deals through "cooperation instead of confrontation."

Critics condemned the governor's move as capitulating to threats of violence by Senecas and other Indians. They also noted that the Senecas, who dominate tax-free cigarette sales in New York, already have pledged not to agree to any arrangements to bring their products in parity with non-Indian retailers.

The governor's plan would give Indian retailers at least another year to enjoy a major competitive edge over non-Indian retailers, who have seen sales plummet by half in some areas since the last big state cigarette tax hike a couple of years ago.

Estimates have ranged widely, but backers of going after the lost taxes say the state is losing at least $500 million a year on gasoline and cigarette tax revenues to Indian retailers.

Pataki's proposal, buried deep inside his 2004-05 state budget released Tuesday, needs legislative approval. The Legislature's top Democrat, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, D-Manhattan, indicated he was open to the delay.

"We appreciate the fact that the governor wants to engage in a dialogue with the Indian nations on this issue," said Rickey L. Armstrong Sr., president of the Seneca Nation of Indians. He called Pataki's move a "positive step" to reach a deal "respectful of our sovereignty and our deeply held belief in the rightness of our cause."

But one Seneca leader, Barry Snyder, dismissed any talk of future tax deals with Pataki.

"By him backing off doesn't change a whole lot. It doesn't make him a better person or more respectful. If he wanted to deal with it he'd say he recognizes the Buffalo Creek Treaty and - there'd not be any taxation issues," said Snyder, referring to the treaty Senecas believe exempts their retail operations from any taxes.+"I can speak for 99 percent of Senecas. We will never sign any sort of tax agreement with the state," Snyder added.

James Calvin, head of a trade group representing non-Indian convenience store owners, condemned the proposed delay in tax collection, which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 10 years ago the state has a right to collect.

"There's a logical, workable, constitutionally sound solution on the table. Just do it," he said.

The Legislature last year ordered Pataki to begin collecting the sales tax.

But the governor last fall delayed the collection until sometime in March. He insisted the legislative edict would harm the state's relations with Indian tribes, with whom he is also trying to cut new casino expansion deals.

The new one-year delay proposed Tuesday would give Pataki time to work out side deals with each of the state's tribes. Such arrangements have been said to include steps in which tribes would charge the tax, but keep the money for themselves. Though the state wouldn't get the tax money directly, the theory goes that the state would benefit by ending the incentive for smokers and drivers to flock to the tax-free Indian sales.

Critics say such arrangements would be filled with loopholes, providing Indian retailers still with an unfair, competitive edge. They add that Pataki has little bargaining room since the Indians, for instance, already are making huge profits from the tobacco and gasoline sales and already are in line to get more casinos in Western New York and the Catskills under a 2001 gambling law.

"What would make the Senecas want to come to the table?" said Dan Finkle, a Fulton County tobacco distributor and spokesman for a consortium of business and health groups fighting to end the tax-free sales.

"The governor is not taking the honest, taxpaying person into account. He's just forcing legitimate business people out of business," Finkle said.

Russell Sciandra, director of the Center for a Tobacco Free New York, called the Pataki plan "deplorable." He said the state raised cigarette taxes with the stated purpose of trying to get more people to quit smoking. "To perpetuate this loophole is very regrettable," he said. The group estimates ending tax-free sales would, through higher prices, cut cigarette consumption by 5 percent.

Senate Majority Leader Joseph L. Bruno, a Rensselaer County Republican, criticized the plan by his Republican governor. "They owe it, contrary to the ads I see on television," Bruno said of the taxes and the anti-tax ad campaign funded by the Senecas that has been playing around the state. He said the state "ought to collect what is owed to the state."

But Silver, Pataki's usual nemesis on budget matters, was more open. He said Pataki's plan is "worth a try" if it can bring in the tax revenues through agreements with the tribes.

The Pataki administration, in its budget plan, estimates it can collect $40 million in revenues because of deals it will make with tribes in the coming year. The administration did not say which tribes it believes will agree to price-parity arrangements, though it has been close with the Oneida and St. Regis Mohawk tribes.

The price differences on cigarettes, for instance, have made some Seneca retailers, who sell their products via smoke shops and the Internet, increasingly rich as the state turned to higher taxes over the years. The state's per-pack excise tax is $1.50, up from 39 cents less than four years ago. A name-brand carton of cigarettes now sells for about $40 in many non-Indian retail outlets; Indian firms charge about $25 for the same product.

[lcm]

If I can be taxed then so can everyone else.

Anyone politician who believes different will not get my vote and should be impeached.

[Night Owl]

This is Treason.

[Night Owl]

Such action by the state effectively violates treaties established between two sovereign nations – the Seneca Nation of Indians and the United States of America.

Break a Treaty, Break the Law.

A CALL FOR HONORING SENECA NATION TREATIES (http://www.honorindiantreaties.com/learn/files/PositionPaper.pdf)

[lcm]

THERE IS NOTHING SOVERIGN ABOUT THE SENECAS! THEIR ROACHES!

The supreme court ruled that Indians are US citizens and must obey state and federal laws and can be legislated to pay taxes.

Indian sovereignty is nothing more than an administrative privilege.

[dtwarren]

Originally posted by Night Owl
Such action by the state effectively violates treaties established between two sovereign nations – the Seneca Nation of Indians and the United States of America.

Break a Treaty, Break the Law.

A CALL FOR HONORING SENECA NATION TREATIES (http://www.honorindiantreaties.com/learn/files/PositionPaper.pdf)

The Seneca Nation has embarked on a media campaign that is marked with misinformation in order to keep an illegal and anti-competitive advantage over honest businesses. In their recent advertisement they cite The 1842 Treaty of Buffalo Creek as the source of the tax free status they claim precludes taxation of non-Indians on Indian land. This is simply not true. In fact Barry Snyder, a former president of the Seneca Nation and then owner of Seneca Hawk raised this treaty in his defense against the imposition of taxes and penalties due for his failure to collect these taxes from non-Indians. This position was rejected by the Appellate Division of the New York Supreme Court, Third Department in Snyder v. Wetzler, 193 A.D.2d 329. In that decision the court held that the provisions of that treaty regarding taxation was only with regard to property taxes. This decision was affirmed by the New York Court of Appeals on December 1, 1994, in Snyder v. Wetzler, 84 N.Y.2d 941. What the advertisements also do not tell you is that the Seneca Nation by its attorney Joseph Crangle filed a friend of the Court brief and argued their case in support of Mr. Snyder and Mr. Snyder still lost.

[lcm]

Personally, I make sure that as a juror that I say that I will exempt from prosecution anyone that shoots to kill an Indian committing physical violence during a protest. If the Indians want to threaten violence to threaten the law enforcers, the tax collectors or politicians then I say no more negotiation we should respond with the full vengence of the law.

The US states defines sovereignty as self administration much like when a town incorporates not as a foreign government. Indians are subject to state taxes, federal taxes, state and federal laws and imminent domain.

The Indians have lost nearly every supreme court lawsuit because their not sovereign.

I used to like and support Indians....I even donated money to their former Turtle Museum in Niagara Falls and asked my representatives to be fair when dealing with Indians needs.

However, with all the taxes that have gone up because of indians buying land and property and businesses that are tax exempt, with all the businesses that have gone bankrupt because they cannot compete with indian businesses, with all the land claim lawsuits being filed and the hardships caused while that lawsuit is being prosecuted, with all the evils that are accompanying their casinos like gambling addiction, alcohol&drug addiction, prostitution....they have lost all my sympathy and support.

I only support Indians that live off reservation and pay the same taxes that I do and I have called every representative told those in jurer selection that I will absolve anyone that uses the fullest extent of the law dealing with Indian violence and intimidation even if that means shoot to kill!Personally, I make sure that as a juror that I say that I will exempt from prosecution anyone that shoots to kill an Indian committing physical violence during a protest. If the Indians want to threaten violence to threaten the law enforcers, the tax collectors or politicians then I say no more negotiation we should respond with the full vengence of the law. :mad:

[citymouse]

What about all the churches that don't pay taxes? the Monte carlo nights, Night at the races, not to mention bingo. Should we shoot them too?

[dtwarren]

Churches are provided a real property tax exemption in our State Constitution and in the Tax Law. This was authorized by the people of this state. When you buy something at one of their stores they still collect the sales tax because YOU were not granted that exemption. Even though the Indian Nations and their land are tax exempt that does not relieve YOU of the tax and does not give them the right to refuse to collect the tax from YOU.

It should not be necessary to again emphasize that this is not a case about land taxes, personal property taxes, or income taxes, nor has any Indian been subjected to taxation. Rather, "the competitive advantage which the Indian seller doing business on tribal land enjoys over all other . . . retailers, within and without the reservation, is dependent on the extent to which the non-Indian purchaser is willing to flout his legal obligation to pay the tax" (Moe v Confederated Salish & Kootenai Tribes of Flathead Reservation, 425 U.S. 463, at 482 [emphasis in original]).

[citymouse]

Since I have been on this site I have heard a lot about free enterprize and market value, How it is ok for walmart to force manufacturers to close shop here and make thier products over seas to keep walmart prices down. Even though this causes a loss of american jobs people say it is good for the econemy because now people get more for thier dollar increasing thier disposable income ETC.
If I can buy a carton of cigarettes at the rez for 23 bucks as opposed to 40 bucks in a deli then isn't that the same thing?
Whats the difference if my dollars go to the senecas or the chinese?
At least the senecas will spend some of thier profit buying cars and other goods that will help the economy. I say God Bless them. It's good for me, it's good for them. I shall continue to buy my tobbacco products and my gasoline from them and for a night out you can't beat the Buffet at the casino. And who knows? Maybe you'll win a little cash to boot.

[300miles]

Originally posted by citymouse
What about all the churches that don't pay taxes? the Monte carlo nights, Night at the races, not to mention bingo. Should we shoot them too?

No, too dangerous... those bingo grannies are well armed!
;)



Originally posted by citymouse
Whats the difference if my dollars go to the senecas or the chinese? At least the senecas will spend some of thier profit buying cars and other goods that will help the economy.

Interesting point, actually. Never thought of it that way. But it still depends on what their true rights are in regard to taxes. What does the treaty actually say? or is it vague on this issue.

dtwarren - you seem to have actual legal info on the treaties. do you have a link to your sources that clearly states what they have been granted?

[lcm]

Churches and businesses such as hospitals earn their right to be tax exempt because they are deamed by the community to satisfy a valuable service and need to the community. Are you comparing your purchase of gasoline, cigarettes, and gambling to pastoring and nurturing your immortal soul, to serving the homeless, the destitute, the sick and the dying, the hungry, orphanages, etc.

I would glady call upon the religious community to stop their bingo and raffles if the senecas agreed to pay taxes.

Tell me something. When you see a bankrupt business in your community do you think that it might have closed because it lost its customers to the senecas, when you see a foreclosed home do you think that they lost their home and their savings gambling, when you see a child prostitute do you think that they are hooking because they gambled their tuition, when you see spousal abuse do you think its caused by gambling, alcohol or drug addiction related to their casino!

Your comparing the morality of Walmart to the Senecas...hmmm. I have never heard of Walmart being physically violent or threatening physical violence to those communities where they have been zoned out, or claiming soverienty when the state taxes them for shifting their non-payments of benefits onto the state.

You want to patronize Seneca businesses, then you are free to do so but whether you accept it or not you are responsible for the evils that this brings to your community and as such you are cursed by inviting these burdens onto yourself, your family, your neighbors and your community now and for future generations.!!!!

[BeFuddled]

Tell me something. When you see a bankrupt business in your community do you think that it might have closed because it lost its customers to the senecas, when you see a foreclosed home do you think that they lost their home and their savings gambling, when you see a child prostitute do you think that they are hooking because they gambled their tuition, when you see spousal abuse do you think its caused by gambling, alcohol or drug addiction related to their casino!

No no no and no! These issues have been around alot longer than the Seneca's tobacco and gasoline ventures!

I do no think that a casino will bring the quick economic fix that many think it will but I don't think it's the end of Western Civ either!

A little persepctive PLEASE!

[lcm]

No its not the end of western civilization. I do have perspective.

You want to patronize Seneca businesses, then you are free to do so but whether you accept it or not you are responsible for the evils that this brings to your community and as such you are cursed by inviting these burdens onto yourself, your family, your neighbors and your community now and for future generations.!!!!

THERE IS NOTHING MORALLY ACCEPTABLE ABOUT ALLOWING ANYONE TO THREATEN/USE PHYSICAL VIOLENCE TO INTIMIDATE INDIVIDUALS OR ELECTED OFFICIALS, TO NOT PAY THEIR OBLIGATED TAXES TO SUPPORT THEIR COMMUNITIES, TO CLAIM EXEMPTION FROM THE LAWS THAT WE ALL LIVE AND ABIDE BY, ACT AS A PARASITE FEEDING OFF OF THEY LIVELIHOODS OF OTHERS.

DOES ANYONE REMEMBER WHEN THE SENECAS PROMISED THAT THEY ONLY WANTED TO OPERATE A CASINO AND HAD NO INTENTION OF COMPETING WITH LOCAL BUSINESS. HMMMM, SINCE WHEN ARE CIGARETTES, GASOLINE, THEATRE, RESTAURANTS, SPAS, PARKING GARAGES, HOTELS, ETC NOT COMPETING WITH LOCAL TAX PAYING BUSINESSES! OH, AND BY THE WAY, ALL THAT REVENUE FROM THAT TAX EXEMPTION..THERE IS NO INDIAN LAW THAT SHARES THAT REVENUE EQUALLY WITH ALL TRIBES AND ALL INDIANS TO IMPROVE THE WELFARE OF ALL INDIANS OR IMPROVE THE WELFARE OF THEIR SURROUNDING COMMUNITIES. YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO BE MORALLY BANKRUPT AND WITHOUT ANY MORAL CONSCIENCE TO SEE THAT THERE IS NOT SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE! PERHAPS INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO ME YOU SHOULD FEED YOUR CATS!!! YOU LONELY SOULLESS PERSON!!!

[BeFuddled]

I would but I ate the last of their food yesterday.

[Night Owl]

Is big print and all CAPS really Necessary?

[Curmudgeon]

First, I had trouble reading your post, but thankfully it was much more readable and convincing because you used GIANT LETTERS... Do you walk around all day with a megaphone to talk to people with? Please stop screaming.

A few flaws in your logic: Since when does any indian venture have to benfit ALL indians? You've lumped them all into one socioeconomic group - I'm sure any native american you talk to would take exception to that. They don't lump you into "caucasians from europe" do they?

2nd: the indians didn't pass these laws - they are a function of an external government that doesn't represent them.

3rd: Physical violence? It's not like they're going to send a hit man after Pataki. They do seem to seize the strip of land called the I-90 that was arbitrarily taken from them in the 50's though. That hurts commerce in the northeast. Nobody wants to invade the rez to steal (again) that portion of land.

4th: Since when have YOU done anything at all to support your "fellow community" (the rez)? You've done what we all have done - driven by and tried to ignore the trailers and other poverty of "our fellow community members".

Truth is, you didn't give a rat's ass about those people until they started taking advantage of your already highly dysfunctional regional economy.

You may now step off your soapbox - please put your megaphone away....

[Curmudgeon]

P.S. I've been away for a while - i missed this one"

THERE IS NOTHING SOVERIGN ABOUT THE SENECAS! THEIR ROACHES!

1st, it's "they're", not "their"...

I think we need a solution to this indian problem. A final solution. Let's fire up the gas chambers, round up those pesky indians, and kill them like the "roaches" they are....

lcm, You are a complete idiot, a bigot, and look out for #1, which is you.

It's a pleasure to meet you.

[WNYresident]

Ot oh, We are going to have a feat of wits with ICM and Curm :)

It's going to make reading more interesting.

I think we should all read once over before we hit the submit button.

[citymouse]

First off, I have no cats.
Secondly, When I see a man destitue because his unemployment is exahusted after he lost his job making roller skates because walmart forced the company he worked for that makes them over seas to keep the price down I do think it is morally wrong.
When I see a sick person child in the gutter because thier family has no health care because thier mothers part time job at walmart makes it unaffordable and they offer no coverage to thier employees I find it to be morally wrong.
The Senecas are little dogs that have been kicked around for years. They found a way to run with the big dogs and do some biting and I for one applaud them for it.
The Kennedys made thier fortune in Bootleg Booze. Should we hate all Irish Americans for it?
Our local Indians are taking advatage of a situation that was not thier making, how can they be faulted for it?
They don't pay any less in taxes than a lot of big corporations, what do you suggest we do about that?
You my friend have an agenda, please keep it to yourself.

[citymouse]

Another thing.
I went to the reservation when they closed the thruway and they did not bother me. I bought cigarettes and saw for myself what was going on.
The only people they threatehd with violence was the state police that tried to remove the road block on the I-90. They were not bothering any one else.

[dtwarren]

Originally posted by 300miles
No, too dangerous... those bingo grannies are well armed!
;)




Interesting point, actually. Never thought of it that way. But it still depends on what their true rights are in regard to taxes. What does the treaty actually say? or is it vague on this issue.

dtwarren - you seem to have actual legal info on the treaties. do you have a link to your sources that clearly states what they have been granted?

The entire Treaty of Buffalo Creek can be seen at http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/Vol2/treaties/sen0537.htm

The relevant portion of the treaty reads:

"ARTICLE NINTH.

The parties to this compact mutually agree to solicit the influence of the Government of the United States to protect such of the lands of the Seneca Indians, within the State of New York, as may from time to time remain in their possession from all taxes, and assessments for roads, highways, or any other purpose until such lands shall be sold and conveyed by the said Indians, and the possession thereof shall have been relinquished by them."

The Appellate Division, Third Department held in Snyder v. Wetzler, 193 A.D.2d 329, "We find the Treaty clearly refers only to taxes levied upon real property or land. The history of the Treaty of 1842 is recited in New York Indians (72 U.S. 761, 766-768), where the issue was focused on real property taxes and assessments upon the rights to the land comprising the Cattaraugus and Allegany Reservations in New York. Pursuant to the earlier Treaty of 1838 made with the New York Indians also concluded at Buffalo Creek, the Seneca Reservations were sold to Thomas Ogden and Joseph Fellows, assignees of the preemption rights owned by Massachusetts. The Treaty provided a five-year period during which the Indians could occupy the land until the tribes were relocated. Certain disagreements with the Treaty of 1838 within the tribe membership ultimately were resolved in the Treaty of 1842, which restored the Cattaraugus and Allegany reservation lands to the Seneca Indians subject, however, to the preemption rights of Ogden and Fellows."

[dtwarren]

Originally posted by citymouse
Since I have been on this site I have heard a lot about free enterprize and market value, How it is ok for walmart to force manufacturers to close shop here and make thier products over seas to keep walmart prices down. Even though this causes a loss of american jobs people say it is good for the econemy because now people get more for thier dollar increasing thier disposable income ETC.
If I can buy a carton of cigarettes at the rez for 23 bucks as opposed to 40 bucks in a deli then isn't that the same thing?
Whats the difference if my dollars go to the senecas or the chinese?
At least the senecas will spend some of thier profit buying cars and other goods that will help the economy. I say God Bless them. It's good for me, it's good for them. I shall continue to buy my tobbacco products and my gasoline from them and for a night out you can't beat the Buffet at the casino. And who knows? Maybe you'll win a little cash to boot.

There can be no free market unless the laws are applied equally.

[dtwarren]

***** FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ******

DATE: October 8, 2004
CONTACT: Daniel Warren (e-mail: d.warren@upstate-citizens.org )

Previously Upstate Citizens for Equality had called for the impeachment of Governor Pataki due to his policy of non-enforcement of the Tax Laws on Indian land. Our organization pulled back from this position in reliance on the introduction and passage of Bill S6822 which would remove all discretion in this area from the Governor. Absent immediate action on the part of our state legislature to deliver this bill, which had passed with an overwhelming majority, our organization will have no choice but to move forward on this campaign to remove the governor and those in office that support this policy.

Recently Erie County Executive Joel Giambra has asked state legislative representatives for support in increasing Erie County’s sales tax rate by 1%. His justification for this increase is that the county’s funding of state mandated Medicaid has increased to the point that it is equivalent to the revenue generated by property taxes in the county. Mr. Giambra also stated that an increase in sales tax would be fairer than an increase in property taxes.

The state has steadily increased the taxes imposed on cigarettes under the rubric of defraying Medicaid related expenses. The current tax imposed on cigarettes is $1.50 per pack plus the sales tax rate of 8.25%.

Earlier this year a study was released by F.A.C.T. (Fair Application of Cigarette Taxes website: http://www.factalliance.org) that addressed the lost revenue by the State’s failure to collect taxes from non-members on Indian land. (This includes people of Indian descent who are not a member of the Indian nation or tribe whose land the purchase takes place.) The study concluded:

* collecting taxes on Native American sales would reduce total cigarette consumption by 5 percent and save 1,250 lives a year in New York. The state would collect $410 million in additional cigarette taxes per year and save $215 million in annual Medicaid costs;

* shift 24 million cartons of local consumption from tax-avoiding sources to tax-paying sources;

* reduce Internet sales, including out-of-state sales;

* and reduce smoking in the state by 2.5 million to 3 million cartons;

These changes in market conditions would create a direct net increase of 1,300 to 1,400 jobs in the retail cigarette market, with higher labor earnings of $35 million to $40 million. Indirect effects - from industries that supply or service cigarette retailers - combined with direct impacts would bring total job expansion to between 1,900 and 2,000, with a total net gain of $55 million to $60 million in taxable wages.

Although there is little doubt that major reform is needed in this state, this state should not increase the taxes on law-abiding citizens to benefit a few favored by the governor.

Absent coercive action on the part of the legislature to protect its constitutional position and remain a co-equal branch to the governor the citizens of the State of New York will no longer have a republican form of government, we will have a totalitarian one. As the late United States Supreme Court Justice Felix Franfurter said "If one man can be allowed to determine for himself what is law, every man can. That means first chaos, then tyranny. Legal process is an essential part of the democratic process."


Sincerely,

Daniel T. Warren
Chair
Niagara Frontier Chapter of Upstate Citizens for Equality

[dtwarren]

Stage is now set:

http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20041112/localnews/1577595.html

Pataki weighs taxes on reservation sales

YANCEY ROY
The Associated Press

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALBANY -- The clock is ticking on Gov. George Pataki, who has less than a week to sign or veto a bill that would force the collection of sales taxes on gasoline and cigarettes sold on Native American reservations.

It's no small matter: hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake. On one side are convenience stores that compete with the reservations and state legislators who view the taxes as a way of helping to pay for the state budget. Anti-smoking groups that want to see cigarettes made more expensive join them.

On the other are customers who enjoy the cheaper prices and Native American tribes that insist the bill intrudes on their sovereignty.

Pataki once favored collecting the taxes. But his efforts to do so in the 1990s triggered violence. Since then, his Taxation and Finance Department has ignored calls by the state Legislature to go after the funds.

Frustrated with the administration, legislators decided to try to put the mandate into law. The Senate (56-1) and Assembly (139-8) in June overwhelmingly passed a bill ordering the collection.

However, key legislators are expecting a Pataki veto.

"If he follows what he has done in the past, I'd guess he'd veto it," said Assemblyman Bill Magee, D-Nelson, Madison County, whose district runs near the Oneida Indian reservation and its Turning Stone casino. "Then we'd have to decide whether to override."

Magee and Senate sponsor Nicholas Spano, R-Yonkers, estimated state and local governments would reap $1 billion annually from the tax collections, though others have estimated less than half of that. The state's per-pack tax on cigarettes is $1.50; it charges about 29 cents per gallon of gasoline.

Courts have ruled that states can impose taxes on sales to non-Indians. The state could do so by collecting tax payments from cigarette distributors. Reservation stores would then raise prices, but Native American customers would be eligible for rebates, legislators said.

The last time the state raised the sales-tax issue, in 1997, about 1,000 members of the Seneca Nation burned tires and shut down Interstate 90 between Hamburg and Silver Creek south of Buffalo. There was a melee, triggering the arrest of 11 people.

Seneca leaders said that imposing a sales tax on their goods would infringe on Indian sovereignty, crush dozens of stores that have sprung up on their Western New York reservation in the last decade and violate an 1842 treaty shielding Seneca territory from taxation.

The Senecas have been the most vocal tribe opposing the Legislature's plan, spending more than $1 million on television and radio ads.

Seneca President Barry E. Snyder Sr. couldn't be reached to comment Thursday but is expected to issue a statement by the end of the week.

The Pataki administration routinely doesn't comment on pending bills. However, Pataki officials have repeatedly said they want to address the issue through "cooperation not confrontation." They have tried to negotiate "parity" deals in which tribes would voluntarily raise the prices of gas and cigarettes to match what nearby non-Indian stores charge -- without paying taxes to the state.

Still, no such deals have been reached.

Email this story

Originally published Friday, November 12, 2004

[dtwarren]

Is the Stewart F. Hanckock, Jr representing Governor Pataki ( http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/appeals/calendar/111604cal.pdf ) The same Stewart F. Hancock that is a judge in the Oneida Tribal Court ( http://www.uticaod.com/news/specialreports/oneidas/29dec_00.htm )? Interesting if so.

[dtwarren]

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=345306&category=STATE&newsdate=3/26/2005

Budget process pushes forward
Legislature announces $106.5B plan will be ready by April 1 deadline; Pataki derides proposal, calling it unaffordable, incomplete

By JAMES M. ODATO
First published: Saturday, March 26, 2005

Capitol bureau

ALBANY -- Legislative leaders proclaimed Friday they had reached a deal on a budget but, with Gov. George Pataki criticizing their plan, it remained unclear whether New York will meet the April 1 deadline for the first time in 21 years.


"Practically speaking, we are done. We can we have a budget," said Senate Majority Leader Joseph Bruno, R-Brunswick.

Joined by Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, D-Manhattan, Bruno said lawmakers will adopt a budget by the April 1 start of the fiscal year. The legislative plan amounts to $106.5 billion, Bruno said, acknowledging several financing details are still being worked out.

Pataki said the plan is unaffordable and noted it will cost the state $1.5 billion in federal Medicaid relief he secured recently. He also criticized lawmakers for leaving unfinished business.

The governor said the plan lacks the health care cuts needed to allow the state to cap local governments' Medicaid expenses as proposed under both his budget and the Legislature's.

Regardless, Senate and Assembly leaders directed their staffs to draft bills this weekend while trying to work out differences with Pataki, whose budget was $105.2 billion. They said the budget will be passed next week with or without the governor's OK.

Pataki called for the chambers to pass legislation to convert not-for-profit insurance companies to for-profit institutions. Such a bill, Pataki said, is necessary for the state to budget hundreds of millions of dollars in stock that would be obtained from the conversions.

The legislative budget offers new tax relief for businesses. The biggest cut involves trimmed down taxes for manufacturers. Starting in January, corporate income taxes on such employers will decline over three years, costing the state about $140 million a year when fully implemented.

Lawmakers also agreed to require the state to collect taxes from American Indian retailers, bringing in $400 million a year. The Legislature has been trying to force Pataki to enforce tax laws on tribal stores the past two years, but he has resisted.

The deal was the result of substantial compromise. Legislators decided to keep charging sales taxes on clothing purchases of up to $110, which were supposed to become tax-free this June. Instead, the Legislature will provide two weeks of tax holidays and impose a permanent exemption starting in April 2006, costing the state $450 million a year in revenues.

The Assembly agreed to let $325 million in school aid be split according to school populations -- 38 percent for New York City, 12 percent for Long Island and 50 percent upstate -- instead of most of it going to distressed schools as Pataki proposed.

The Senate sided with the Assembly to leave Family Health Plus alone, even though Pataki has been trying to strip down the coverages provided under the health insurance program for the poor.

Bruno said the Legislature agreed to a bill that would allow Aqueduct and Yonkers horse tracks to open video lottery terminal parlors. He said the legislation, which Pataki suggested is flawed, involves a fix of problems the Court of Appeals found with the 2001 gambling law that authorized VLT centers, such as the one at the Saratoga Springs harness track.

Bruno said the state can count on $1 billion a year from the VLT operations.

Details were not provided, but several sources said the proposal calls for increasing fees paid to the VLT operators from the 29 percent in current law to up to 40 percent on a sliding scale based on gambling revenues.

The legislation cuts out the money current laws direct for purses and breeders -- sums the court found unconstitutional. Instead, lawmakers expect the tracks would share proceeds with horsemen. The bill would enhance the chances of an Aqueduct racino by calling for any successor to the New York Racing Association to honor terms of NYRA casino contracts.

James M. Odato can be reached at 454-5083 or by e-mail at jodato@timesunion.com.

[moadib]

I just read that the credit card companies will no longer accept cigarette charges

There was a multi-state lawsuit that they won and the credit cards agreed not to accept credit card purchases for online purchases of cigarettes (aka 99% of their sales)

I also understand that they are pushing to put the sales tax at the point of manufacture so that the sales tax is paid before it ever gets to the Indians on the reservation.

Well, Pataki lost everyone I know by refusing to collect sales tax from NYS Indians.....I hope he wakes up!

The entire state is suffering, why should they get a free ride!

[concernedwnyer]

Originally posted by Night Owl
Such action by the state effectively violates treaties established between two sovereign nations – the Seneca Nation of Indians and the United States of America.

Break a Treaty, Break the Law.

A CALL FOR HONORING SENECA NATION TREATIES (http://www.honorindiantreaties.com/learn/files/PositionPaper.pdf)



Oh PLEASE.... Man you want sovereignty I will give you sovereiggnty. It is called tariffs. You want electricyty then it will cost you this much money to connect your land to our power grid. You want to connect your sewage system to our sewage system it will cost you this much.

And by the way any new land you buy you pay taxes like everone else. Think of it has being a Foreign investor pow wow powowow.

I'll be doing an Indian dance around the fire.

[Night Owl]

You decided to comment on something I said February 14th, 2004 (more than a year ago) which was actually from the link I provided???

[Cgoodsp466]

Originally posted by lcm
Churches and businesses such as hospitals earn their right to be tax exempt because they are deamed by the community to satisfy a valuable service and need to the community. Are you comparing your purchase of gasoline, cigarettes, and gambling to pastoring and nurturing your immortal soul, to serving the homeless, the destitute, the sick and the dying, the hungry, orphanages, etc.

I would glady call upon the religious community to stop their bingo and raffles if the senecas agreed to pay taxes.

Tell me something. When you see a bankrupt business in your community do you think that it might have closed because it lost its customers to the senecas, when you see a foreclosed home do you think that they lost their home and their savings gambling, when you see a child prostitute do you think that they are hooking because they gambled their tuition, when you see spousal abuse do you think its caused by gambling, alcohol or drug addiction related to their casino!


Lets see if I have the drift of this Demagouge, Its the Indians
fault that this country is screwed up!
News flash Hodgie around 1492 these people owned this country,then clowns like you showed up and took there land and
put these proud people on reservations.
And concerning the drunk child prostitute who gambled her tuition to Harvard away,do you have pictures of the Indian that held a gun to her head and forced her in to the casino?
I buy my gas at the reservation,I buy my Tobacco at the reservation,here is why screw New York, oh I just bought 4 tires in PA to beat the taxes and fees in this State. So take your selfserving attitude some where else, I gave at the office.








Your comparing the morality of Walmart to the Senecas...hmmm. I have never heard of Walmart being physically violent or threatening physical violence to those communities where they have been zoned out, or claiming soverienty when the state taxes them for shifting their non-payments of benefits onto the state.

You want to patronize Seneca businesses, then you are free to do so but whether you accept it or not you are responsible for the evils that this brings to your community and as such you are cursed by inviting these burdens onto yourself, your family, your neighbors and your community now and for future generations.!!!!

[Cgoodsp466]

Originally posted by lcm
No its not the end of western civilization. I do have perspective.

You want to patronize Seneca businesses, then you are free to do so but whether you accept it or not you are responsible for the evils that this brings to your community and as such you are cursed by inviting these burdens onto yourself, your family, your neighbors and your community now and for future generations.!!!!

THERE IS NOTHING MORALLY ACCEPTABLE ABOUT ALLOWING ANYONE TO THREATEN/USE PHYSICAL VIOLENCE TO INTIMIDATE INDIVIDUALS OR ELECTED OFFICIALS, TO NOT PAY THEIR OBLIGATED TAXES TO SUPPORT THEIR COMMUNITIES, TO CLAIM EXEMPTION FROM THE LAWS THAT WE ALL LIVE AND ABIDE BY, ACT AS A PARASITE FEEDING OFF OF THEY LIVELIHOODS OF OTHERS.

DOES ANYONE REMEMBER WHEN THE SENECAS
























































PROMISED THAT THEY ONLY WANTED TO OPERATE A CASINO AND






HAD NO INTENTION OF COMPETING WITH LOCAL BUSINESS. HMMMM, SINCE WHEN ARE CIGARETTES, GASOLINE, THEATRE, RESTAURANTS, SPAS, PARKING GARAGES, HOTELS, ETC NOT COMPETING WITH LOCAL TAX PAYING BUSINESSES! OH, AND BY THE WAY, ALL THAT REVENUE FROM THAT TAX EXEMPTION..THERE IS NO INDIAN LAW THAT SHARES THAT REVENUE EQUALLY WITH ALL TRIBES AND ALL INDIANS TO IMPROVE THE WELFARE OF ALL INDIANS OR IMPROVE THE WELFARE OF THEIR SURROUNDING COMMUNITIES. YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO BE MORALLY BANKRUPT AND WITHOUT ANY MORAL CONSCIENCE TO SEE THAT THERE IS NOT SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE! PERHAPS INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO ME YOU SHOULD FEED YOUR CATS!!! YOU LONELY SOULLESS PERSON!!!
Lets see if I have the drift of this Demagouge, Its the Indians
fault that this country is screwed up!
News flash Hodgie around 1492 these people owned this country,then clowns like you showed up and took there land and
put these proud people on reservations.
And concerning the drunk child prostitute who gambled her tuition to Harvard away,do you have pictures of the Indian that held a gun to her head and forced her in to the casino?
I buy my gas at the reservation,I buy my Tobacco at the reservation,here is why screw New York, oh I just bought 4 tires in PA to beat the taxes and fees in this State. So take your selfserving attitude some where else, I gave at the office.

[moadib]

AMEN TO ALL THE ANTI-CASINO & INDIAN TAXATION PROPONENT

MESSAGE TO THE SENECAS:

PAY THE F-N TAXES AND STOP DISCRIMINATING AGAINST NON-INDIANS AT YOUR CASINO!

[granpabob]

the great seneca nation and other iroquois tribes drove off all the other tribes from our area. Killing the warriors enslaving the women children taking their land just like those tribes did to the mound builders and who ever else was here. the white man just came last. French brought their priest who killed of more indians then any battle ever could. the black robes or priest brought deseases that indians never faved befor tens of thousands died from measles chicken pox mumps much less the major deseases we fear, now they claim all of this was theirs byuffalo creek was one of the last areas they took. Hurons lived along that portion same with the eries and a couple of other tribes I can never remember, they were supposed to prove aboriginal rights to the land in Niagara falls and Buffalo in order to purchase it for the Casinos. how do you prove that. their aboriginal rights would be in asia somewhere not here. or was my science teacher wrong

[speaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by granpabob
[B]the great seneca nation and other iroquois tribes drove off all the other tribes from our area. Killing the warriors enslaving the women children taking their land just like those tribes did to the mound builders and who ever else was here. the white man just came last.

Correct, gramps, all the way. I think the first known tribe here were called the Neutrals--really their name. I have to find that book again about the colonizing of western NY. For that I have to go to the library.
I loved Indians as a kid and when we played cowboys and Indians, I was an Indian. Always.
I think the tribes of NY should be respected, no out of state tribes allowed in to conduct business. But I think the tribes can no longer be considered a sovereign nation. They benefit from federal protection in time of war, and peace. They've had a good jumpstart on their economy and time to be citizens like the rest of us.
:)

[hacktivist]

While I agree with the sentiment about taxes on Indian reservations, let me ask the tax-proponents this: do you propose that NYS collect taxes in Ontario too? Or how about the malls across the border in Pennsylvania where clothing is tax-free?

Face it: our society is rife with examples of people who are taking advantage of some position that is enshrined in law. Consider, for example, income taxes: do the state retirees pay income tax on their pensions?

Since this is tax-time, please go through your tax forms and look at all the exemptions all of those special groups are getting.

Through a quirk of history, the Native Americans are in the position of not having to pay taxes. Instead of forcing this issue down their throats, I feel a reasonable compromise must be reached that respects their rights too. Since when did majority's right trump the minority's ? If that was the case, we'd still have segregation and slavery!

[moadib]

I dont support any compromise or exemption for anyone

You have a right to your opinion but Indians are US citizens and subject to Federal Laws, even taxes.

You have a right to your opinion but Indians residing in NYS and on property in NYS are are NYS residents and subject to NYS Laws, even Taxes.

Your arguments about placing Indian Soverienty equal to another country or another state within the Union is garbage.

PAY THE DARN TAXES! I COULD SUPPORT YOUR FIGHT FOR ELIMINATING THE EXEMPTIONS FROM TAXATION THAT OTHER INTEREST GROUPS HAVE CREATED FOR THEMSELVES BUT I WILL NOT SUPPORT UNEQUAL TAXATION OR UNEQUAL REPRESENTATION.

EQUAL RIGHTS FOR EQUAL RESPONSIBILITIES
EQUAL RESPONSIBILITIES FOR EQUAL RIGHTS

[douggust]

That's the problem, there are too many taxes to be paid and as of late they're called "FEES".

Took my wife's car in for NYS inspection this past Saturday, $21.00, last year it was $16.00.

Do you really question why people try their hardest to avoid paying this "bloodsucking" state anymore then they have to???

Get real folks, the pennies do add up: ever stop to think with the rising price of gasoline how much more the state and county are taking in due to the 8.25% sales tax???

Broke?? Give me a break, they can't spend it quick enough!!

[hacktivist]

moadib: yelling won't put across your point any better.

You still did not answer my questions: why should some people pay income taxes on their incomes, and others don't (for the same income) ?

Since you do concede that there are exemptions up the wazoo, why should the Indians be the first to bear the brunt of this "clean up" effort? Why don't you start with eliminating the exemptions in the reverse chronological order? Eliminate the exemptions that were put in place most recently, and work backwards.

If you ask me, the lack of income taxes on CSEA retirees hurts the state far more than the lack of taxes on Indian reservations.

So, the Indians have found a tax loophole and are exploiting it; good for them, I say. When the rich multi-millionaires exploit the same loopholes and move their money offshore, where's the yelling? Where's the indignation when Jack Welch pays almost zero in taxes? Where were you when Dennis Kozlowski did the same? Do you know how much more the State would make in taxes if the fatcats in NYC paid their fair share?

But yet people like you buy into this "Indians are ripping us off" bogey time and again. The amount that is lost to the Indians in this manner is trivial.

[moadib]

I fight for equality under the law

sorry but I find it abominable that the Seneca Casino is claiming exemption for labor discrimination laws....

There is an Alternative Minimum Tax which is supposed to assure that rich individuals do pay a minimum tax and frankly if there was a corporate equivalent to the Alternative Minimum Tax there would be alot less creative accounting.

Look, fight for a law regarding fair taxation.

But I dont think any group should be exempt from the law. I will never support Indian Sovereignty though I will respect non-violent indians and their heritage.

Indians and Indian Businesses are part of the same community and should obey the laws of the community and pay the taxes of the community, especially when their principle customers are non-indians.

EQUAL RIGHTS FOR EQUAL RESPONSIBILITIES
EQUAL RESPONSIBILITIES FOR EQUAL RIGHTS

[hacktivist]

Instead of repeating yourself ad nauseum, why not try to answer the questions that are being asked.

Why should government retirees not pay state income taxes? Can you answer that? And these people are not even part of any treaty between sovereign nations.

Instead of frothing away at the mouth like this, do a little research and see for yourself how the special groups in Albany and NYC cost the state so much in revenues that the missed sales tax from Indians is like a drop in a bucket.

Admit it: the real reason you and your ilk are so upset is because it's those damn Injuns, right?

[avet]

Came across this in another forum. Thought it to be interesting.

_____________________________________________

Indian casino boom

"Can anyone explain what's behind the explosive expansion of Indian casinos? Here in CA they're everywhere and multiplying like jackrabbits.
My Daughter-in-law works as a black jack dealer at an Indian casino in Temecula CA. She says it is "backed by Harrahhs." What exactly does that imply? Are Indian casinos Mafia controlled too? Does anyone know the inside story?

I do know my Daughter-in-law makes a minimum of $1,000 a week in tips and pays virtually no taxes. On a good week she may make as much as $5,000 in tips.

Her Mother who is one half Indian receives $3,000 to $5,000 a month income from her tribes casino, simply for being "of the blood." Lets not forget her $250 food voucher and $500 a month Costco credit. She also receives furniture and clothing vouchers. All this for a woman who's children are grownup and gone. She loves to boast , "I've never worked a day in my life and I never will."

For someone like myself who's worked since she was twelve, raised four kids and never got any thing for free in her life, I find this disgusting!"

[hacktivist]

<I>"I've never worked a day in my life and I never will." </I>

Neither has Paris Hilton. Or any of the 1000s of Trustafarians (yuppies who live off a trust fund setup by their parents, for the uninitiated).

[WNYresident]

Hey there are some government officials that can claim the same thing. They never worked a day in thier life. I dont consider all day BS sessions acutally work.. :)

[granpabob]

we dont provide canada with police and fire protection schools highways welfare or anything else. the so call sovern nations get cant stand alone. if the tribes are sepparate nations let them pay for what they get. tax free but full tax benefits sure wish I could get that deal and these Indian we dont owe they fought against us and lost during two wars.
Now they are protesting out of state tribes, did you notice the out of state tribes are sections of the Iroquois tribes that left our great state during those wars.
Its not like we are talking about Millions of senecas either it is only a few thousand members strough.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by avet
Came across this in another forum. Thought it to be interesting.

_____________________________________________

Indian casino boom

"Can anyone explain what's behind the explosive expansion of Indian casinos? Here in CA they're everywhere and multiplying like jackrabbits.
My Daughter-in-law works as a black jack dealer at an Indian casino in Temecula CA. She says it is "backed by Harrahhs." What exactly does that imply? Are Indian casinos Mafia controlled too? Does anyone know the inside story?

I do know my Daughter-in-law makes a minimum of $1,000 a week in tips and pays virtually no taxes. On a good week she may make as much as $5,000 in tips.

Her Mother who is one half Indian receives $3,000 to $5,000 a month income from her tribes casino, simply for being "of the blood." Lets not forget her $250 food voucher and $500 a month Costco credit. She also receives furniture and clothing vouchers. All this for a woman who's children are grownup and gone. She loves to boast , "I've never worked a day in my life and I never will."

For someone like myself who's worked since she was twelve, raised four kids and never got any thing for free in her life, I find this disgusting!"

If this lady is getting all this money (like around $70,000 a year), then why is her daughter working and not collecting like Mom??? Even in Cali, $70,000 a year is pretty good money!

Somethin' smells a little "ripe" in this tale of "Injun unfairness"!

[hacktivist]

Even in Cali, $70,000 a year is pretty good money!

Not to mention that on the rez, this much money can go a loong way.

I laughed when I read that story (and it is just that, a "story"). Yet another attempt to villify the Indians.

Guess what, people? Each Alaskan receives a couple of 1000 dollars a year just for living there. Of course, you are living in Alaska, which can have some negative points ;)

[avet]

Somethin' smells a little "ripe" in this tale of "Injun unfairness"!
Like what? A "young" girl making big money and "in the action", making a SALARY + $1000 to $5000 in TIPS
VS.
The "older" mother sitting home collecting $3 - 5,000 doing nothing ?
=======================================

On their land, tribes' law is the last word
With court rulings that affirm their sovereignty, Indians are fighting off a variety of challenges


http://www.citizensalliance.org/Major%20Issues/Indian%20Gaming%20Issues/Tribal%20Gaming%20Funds%20Rights%20Issues%20%20.ht m

Today, instead of welfare checks, tribal members collect $5,000 monthly casino checks.

California, with 107 federally recognized reservations and rancherias, has become the front line in the struggle over sovereignty. More Indians, more casinos and more tribes are here than anywhere else, including some of the richest, most politically savvy Indian nations in America.

They've also become kingmakers, plowing more than $120 million into political campaigns in the last five years.

Two tribes, testing the limits of sovereignty, have claimed that as sovereign nations they're exempt from the state's campaign contribution disclosure laws. A Sacramento Superior Court judge recently ruled against one of the tribes. Just how far the tribes can fly above state laws has yet to be decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.

The Indians are exempt from local laws as long as they meet safety standards set by the state or federal government.

Most Californians don't realize that when they enter California Indian territory, they check many of their legal rights as U.S. citizens at the border.

If you get into a car accident with a tribal employee on tribal business, are injured at an Indian resort or casino, or are fired without just cause, you can't sue the tribe in California court. If you're owed money in a business dispute or are sexually harassed, you can't sue, either.

A San Marcos businessman tried to recover $250,000 in equipment confiscated by the Rincon tribe in a business dispute. He sued the tribe in San Diego Superior Court and won. Four years later, the Indians still have his equipment, thanks to sovereign immunity.

* A man driving his golden retriever to the veterinarian in Coachella was injured when he crashed into a Cabazon tribal police officer who had cut in front of him. His lawsuit was thrown out based on sovereign immunity, even though the accident happened off the reservation.
Immunity's far reach
Tribal immunity sometimes extends beyond tribal lands, as Antonio Infante and his 12-year-old daughter, Angelica, discovered in August 1996.
The two were driving their golden retriever to a veterinarian in Coachella when they crashed into a car that suddenly cut in front of them. Infante hurt his left knee, neck and shoulders, and said he suffered headaches and dizziness for weeks.

The other driver -- a tribal police officer for the nearby Cabazon Reservation -- was cited by police for failure to yield. The accident happened off the reservation and the tribal cop wasn't a tribal member, but when Infante tried to sue, the case was thrown out on the grounds of sovereign immunity.

Walter Clark, Infante's attorney, then tried to sue the tribal cop personally, "But because he was on duty in a vehicle owned by the Cabazon tribe he had complete immunity."

Clark finally appealed to Cabazon's own tribal court, which offered to reimburse only the medical bills not covered by Infante's insurance, totaling $5,784.

That leaves Californians in Indian country without the civil protections they've come to expect elsewhere.


'An expensive lesson'
Federal and state laws protect employees who can prove they were fired in retaliation for exposing wrongdoing -- but not in Indian country.
Several years ago, Stanley Elliott, a security manager at the Tachi Yokuts' casino, discovered a security guard had used a hidden camera to zoom in on a female gambler's cleavage and thighs.

After he informed the tribe's gaming commission, he was fired for "failure to exercise discretion and sound judgment to prevent incidents which reflect on the (tribe's) reputation, integrity and security."

Elliott complained to the tribal council, which ordered him reinstated without "further threats or intimidation." But the tribe's gaming commission let the firing stand.

"It was an expensive lesson," said Elliott, 56, estimating he's out about $4,000 in legal fees. Elliott's lawyer, Bill Romaine, contacted the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission only to be told that tribes have sovereign immunity from all retaliation claims.

Rosette, the tribe's attorney, said Elliott was terminated for good cause. "People who never respected the sovereign status of the tribe to begin with get angry and feel their rights were trampled on," he said, "when in fact they should have learned the tribal process and tribal law."

Many tribal leaders consider their justice fair, and believe the compact provides plenty of protection for patrons and workers.

"We like it the way it is; it's as good as sausage gets," said Pechanga chairman Mark Macarro.

[avet]

by hacktivist

I laughed when I read that story (and it is just that, a "story"). Yet another attempt to villify the Indians.
I'm trying to "villify" the Indians? Ha, ha,ha! It's "their own" actions doing that. Am I making this sh** up? It just proves easy money can corrupt "anybody".

"Villify"... by merely stating the "FACTS"? Ha,ha,ha !!

[hacktivist]

Avet, why not link to the source of the material put up by you:
http://www.oregonfast.net/cff/News/arch-0201-casino03g-article1.html
http://www.oregonfast.net/cff/News/arch-0201-casino03g-article2.html

The fact is that we're a nation of laws. If the laws favor a certain group (through a quirk of history) then what can you do about it? Blame the politicians for enacting those laws. But don't blame the Indians for taking full advantage of the rights given them!

Assume, for the sake of the argument, that you had the absolute right (as a member of some special group) to drive as fast as you want on the Thruway, without any possibility of getting a ticket. Would you still do the speed limit? How many people do you know would stick to the speed limit in such a situation? Heck, I know I wouldn't!

[yokes]

Originally posted by avet
Came across this in another forum. Thought it to be interesting.

_____________________________________________

Indian casino boom

"Can anyone explain what's behind the explosive expansion of Indian casinos? Here in CA they're everywhere and multiplying like jackrabbits.
My Daughter-in-law works as a black jack dealer at an Indian casino in Temecula CA. She says it is "backed by Harrahhs." What exactly does that imply? Are Indian casinos Mafia controlled too? Does anyone know the inside story?


point 1 Harrahs is not controlled by the Mafia, but a nice attempt to link those "Evil Indians" to the evil mafia. This is a very great tactic when trying to vilify the indians.

Though Vegas does have a sorted history, the mafia could not compete with the legitimate corporate money that built the current Vegas.


I do know my Daughter-in-law makes a minimum of $1,000 a week in tips and pays virtually no taxes. On a good week she may make as much as $5,000 in tips


Pretty amazing. doubt that its true, however it does make your point of "Those evil Indians" quite well

Let me see if I have it right. "Those Darn Indians are screwing us all"


Her Mother who is one half Indian receives $3,000 to $5,000 a month income from her tribes casino, simply for being "of the blood." Lets not forget her $250 food voucher and $500 a month Costco credit. She also receives furniture and clothing vouchers. All this for a woman who's children are grownup and gone. She loves to boast , "I've never worked a day in my life and I never will."

Another fine attempt of THEY ARE SCREWING US ALL!

Heres one that will make your blood boil. The pequot tride of which ther are less than 1000 left each get almost 500k in sharing from Foxwoods per year, but I'm sure they are wreching the system somehow


For someone like myself who's worked since she was twelve, raised four kids and never got any thing for free in her life, I find this disgusting!" [/B]

YEAH THOSE DAMN INDIANS!

Glad I have it clear now

[moadib]

No one is villifying indians as a people, just their hypocrisy

We respect indians personally
We respect indians culturally
We respect those that live among us off the reservation and those who live on the reservation

We just do not appreciate them refusing to obey the laws or refusing to pay taxes.

[avet]

__________________________________________________
by hacktivist:
"The fact is that we're a nation of laws. If the laws favor a certain group... "
__________________________________________________


Isn't that the "WHOLE REASON" we are having so many of these problems.

Every "special interest group", "race", legislature, union, etc. goes by their own little "quirky" set of laws, set up "just for their benefit", and not in the best interest of an "entire society" to work in a equal and harmonious unison. These "quirky" laws are allowing "tax free" MEGA PROFITS to be made by a "select few", irregardless to the consequences of the society they want to exist in, and profit from.

_______________________________________________
by hacktivist:
"Assume, for the sake of the argument, that you had the absolute right (as a member of some special group) to drive as fast as you want on the Thruway, without any possibility of getting a ticket. Would you still do the speed limit?"
________________________________________________


So your implying, if they (politicians enacting those laws) should happen to, "lets say", eliminate almost all the road patrols because of no finances, the criminals should "capitalize" on that little fact and go on a "hawg wild" crime spree? Don't blame the criminals! Right?

Poor "unduely" prosecuted criminals! They were just simply taking "advantage" of the situation!

YOUR BOTTOM LINE SEEMS TO BE, SO WHAT! "WRONG" IS "RIGHT", WHEN IT'S TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF.
BECAUSE IT'S WRITTEN IN SOME "QUIRKY" SCREWED UP LAWS (WRITTEN BACK WHENEVER, IN HISTORY).

I AM GETTING VERY TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT,
THE "QUIRKY" ONES (WHOMEVER), MAKING "QUIRKY" HUGE MEGA GOBS OF "TAX FREE" PROFITS, BECAUSE OF IDIOTIC "QUIRKY LAWS", WHEN THE SOCIETY THEIR PROFITING FROM,.... "IS TOTALLY AND SIMPLY, BROKE".

IT SIMPLY PROVES THESE "QUIRKY LAWS" DON'T, AND CANNOT, WORK!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________
by yokes:
"Pretty amazing. doubt that its true"
_______________________________

Well "your" doubts have definitly not cleared it all up for me.

Please show me FACTS, cause "that's" what I try to always go by, not just, things like your "personal feelings".

[yokes]

It is my understanding Native Americans are not tax exempt from Federal Income tax.

See "Who Should File" here (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc351.html)

They are exempt from State taxes if they meet the qualifications.

Must be in the blood line
Must live on Indian Land
Must earn said income on Indian Land.

So PErhaps this nice story does have a happy ending since making that kind of cash would put her in the 25-30% federal tax bracket.

[Boost Buffalo]

The monopoly in which the Senaca's are demanding was never part of any treaty. Is this correct? Why do these indians insist on all off-reservation gaming rights? What the hell is this?

And its interesting how these Senecas are attempting to intimidate the state with their whining, saturation advertising. They've obviously got huge marketing and airtime dollars budgeted here. Who taught them this whining trick, the unions?

Competition is a healthy thing for society and the Senecas should not be exempt from this in dealing with the general public.

While gaming is still hot and huge dollars are still flowing, a casino in Buffalo is definitely justified. Its not only the hundred plus million dollars in development business thats exciting buts its huge in public revenue sharing too.

This gaming game wont be excessively profitable forever so it needs to happen now. The indians are interfering.

[yokes]

Interfering with what?

I wasnt aware there was an amendment pending to legalize non-native gaming in NYS.

[speaker]

Originally posted by moadib


.......We respect indians personally
We respect indians culturally
We respect those that live among us off the reservation and those who live on the reservation

We just do not appreciate them refusing to obey the laws or refusing to pay taxes.

I absolutely agree, Moad.
Treaties with the Indians were made in a different time, jusy as the Constitution was, and the Constitution can be amended. Time for the American Indians to become American citizens.

[Boost Buffalo]

interfering with a Buffalo casino moving forward.

I like the other tribes welcomed to NY, it keeps the Senecas honest.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by speaker
I absolutely agree, Moad.
Treaties with the Indians were made in a different time, jusy as the Constitution was, and the Constitution can be amended. Time for the American Indians to become American citizens.

I agree too.

And Senecas selling non taxed goods to non-indians was never part of any deal either. please correct me if I'm wrong

[hacktivist]

Avet, shouting won't make your point come across any more forcefully.

All this whining in this thread makes me puke. Instead of thinly-veiled gripes, why not come out and say openly: I hate the f*cking Indians.

Fact #1: The number of Indians is miniscule.
Fact #2: And this point I brought up repeatedly and you bigots refuse to address it: there are lots of other groups with laws that benefit them; and these groups vastly outnumber the Indians. And yet you guys insist on wanting to lynch the Indians. Example #1: State retirees don't pay any state income tax on their pensions. The number of such people vastly outnumbers the Indians; check census records if you want a count of the number of Indians. Example #2: You don't pay any taxes on gambling winnings up to $1200; and why is that?
Fact #3: This thread is about Albany / NYS. Bringing in examples from California is pointless and asinine.
Fact #4: Seneca Gaming are a business group, just like any other business group. Just like that BassPro guy did and every other business does, they will try to do what's in their best interest. For you to think otherwise would incredibly stupid.
Fact #5: When the treaties were signed, there was no Sales Tax; there was no Income Tax. Blame the politicians for not imposing Sales Tax on the Indians; but don't blame the Indians for taking advantage of this! Did you know that you don't pay sales tax on food items? Aren't you taking advantage of an exception in the law? Why don't you insist on paying sales tax on food then next time you are in the grocery store?
Fact #6: See all the lawyers around you? The millions of briefcase carrying shucksters? Their sole job is to interpret the law in the most beneficial way for their clients. If finding loopholes in laws was bad, then these lawyers would be out of a job. And yet you see their numbers growing everyday. Why? Because everyone wants to interpret the law in the way that benefits them the most.

[yokes]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
interfering with a Buffalo casino moving forward.

I like the other tribes welcomed to NY, it keeps the Senecas honest.

Why would the state do this. If they allow another tribe in the Seneca's lose exclusivity and guess what?!?! They wont have to pay the state the cut of the slots. I highly doubt the State would want to lose the revenue from 2 casino's in favor of one in buffalo.

[granpabob]

the tribes he is talking about are from new york. iroquois tribal member tribes that were divided .sure they are now in Oklahoma wisconsin and a few other states but they were once from New york.and have the same aboriginal rights that the senecas do.

[yokes]

Its a question of the exclusivity given to the Seneca's in the compact.

The same scenario would exist if the state legalized non-indian gaming, they would give up the slot revenue from the native facilities

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by hacktivist
Instead of thinly-veiled gripes, why not come out and say openly: I hate the f*cking Indians.



hey those are your filthy words not mine. dont you know we have children on this board?

I love the indians and am damn greatful they werent all knocked off.

I love them so much I think we should welcome all native Americans to WNY to compete in the gaming industry. And I never want to see the native Americans lose the gaming edge either, as long as gaming is viable.

And the tax free reservation are an acceptable element too if you feel so strongly, but dont take us for fools and claim rights to non-reservation entities (like people) to sell your tax free goods too. This country has to remain strong and responsible or we wont be able to provide all the freebies to you. How!

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by yokes
Why would the state do this. If they allow another tribe in the Seneca's lose exclusivity and guess what?!?! They wont have to pay the state the cut of the slots. I highly doubt the State would want to lose the revenue from 2 casino's in favor of one in buffalo.

Why would we limit it to one in Buffalo?

The state is wide open. I like to see some aggressive negotiations on both sides of the table when public entities are involved. How bout you?

[Boost Buffalo]

I really believe its in everybodies best interest for the Seneca tribe to realize who's boss and to work with us rather than against us.

Now pass the peace pipe

[yokes]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
Why would we limit it to one in Buffalo?

The state is wide open. I like to see some aggressive negotiations on both sides of the table when public entities are involved. How bout you?

I was speaking specifically of the Buffalo Casino proposals. The state is free to negotiate with other tribes for areas outside of a certain radius. This would be unprecidented in Native Gaming though, and would require Federal not state approval to be accomplished.

The provision was put into place to secure a limited amount of gaming facilities, essintially preventing the Vegas style casino on every corner.

[yokes]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
I really believe its in everybodies best interest for the Seneca tribe to realize who's boss and to work with us rather than against us.

Now pass the peace pipe

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but so far nationwide when it comes to items of Native Gaming, the tribes are the boss, followed closely by the federal government, then the state.

[Boost Buffalo]

oh, no peace pipe?

...and could you please educate us further on that?

[yokes]

not sure about the peace pipe. I try not to smoke :)

I am not an expert in this area, however I have close connections who are. So anything I say is simply a representitive statement of my understanding based upon my discussions with them.

The indians hold the cards (pardon the pun)

In areas where corporate gaming is not legal, the states are seeing a great revenue opportunity, by allowing native gaming.

The tribes hold the power. The states want the casino revenue, and choose not to legalize corporate gaming and simply collect taxes off them, so they essentially have forced themselve into deals with the NA tribes.

Its a great deal for the tribes, the feds need to approve any compact with the states and the tribes, but technically, they could open certain gaming facilities withou the states permission. The compacts are designed for land transfer and higher forms of casino gaming.

[Boost Buffalo]

yes definitely a benefit to the tribes, as well. and I think we're basically in agreement with the exception of the rights to act without state permission.

As well as the state deciding to allow competing tribes into the region to open teepee, er, ah, to open shop, and compete with our beloved, overly litigious Senecas.

and its a pleasure conversing with you.

[yokes]

Any native american tribe can open Class 2 or B (not entirley sure of the technical class names) gaming (machines based upon a bingo type randomizer) on any of their land without states permission.

In order to have the type of gaming such as table games and slots as we see in the Seneca Niagara etc the need to enter into a compact with the state, which ultimately needs to be approved by the federal government.

Thast was my point on the states

[Boost Buffalo]

Well that sounds interesting but awfully insignificant...

But I must say I am delighted with the Senaca's efforts in Niagara Falls. Its absolutely beautiful and inspiring. Its the greatest thing there since shredded wheat, actually far better than that deserting wheat.

What the Seneca's accomplished and inspired others to do in the Falls is awesome.

It proves that these once believed incapable, obsolete users and takers of society are finally emerging from those hellish reservations.

Native Americans now strive to be contributing, respectful, respected and an important part of the great American way of life and business. Soon they will see the absurdity of this soveriegn nation nonsense that they presently hang their feathers on.

America is incredible.

[speaker]

Well, I don't hate Indians. They have been a noble race of people and were treated shabbily, to put it mildly, by white man. Really destroyed. If you really think about it, the coming of age of any minority, whether they come off the boats or in from the woods, is when it makes it on the same footing as everyone else and
regains its pride.

from grandpabob: the tribes he is talking about are from new york. iroquois tribal member tribes that were divided .sure they are now in Oklahoma wisconsin and a few other states but they were once from New york...

Yes, we hit on this before. The original Buffalo area Indians were the Neuters (I know this sounds made up) and the Iroquois scattered them so there never was that particular tribe again. I think there were seven tribes here originally, in NYS. And western NY wouldn't be the same place without them.

[avet]

hacktivist, Your language and manners are lacking, and "won't make your point come across any more forcefully".

Fact #1 & #2:
Where did I ever even ONCE say "I hate Indians"? Please show me, if you can. Lynch the Indians? Who is the one comming across as the bigot?

For a "miniscule" number, they are making HUGE amounts of "TAX FREE POROFITS" on gas, cigarettes, and casino's. Enough to pay people "well", to sit home, doing NOTHING.

Fact #3:
"Bringing in examples from California is pointless and asinine"
.................................................. .....
You saying they don't do the same thing here? I know for a fact, IT DOES.

Fact #4:
"Seneca Gaming are a business group, just like any other business group. Just like that BassPro guy did and every other business does, they will try to do what's in their best interest. For you to think otherwise would incredibly stupid."
.................................................. .............
What's in the best interest for this area? What is your answer to these problems, RAISE the taxes even MORE for the remaining few "WORKING", below average wage, paying taxpayers?

Fact #5:
Did you know that you don't pay sales tax on "anything"? For just "SITTING HOME, DOING NOTHING"?

Fact #6:
"Because everyone wants to interpret the law in the way that benefits them the most."
.................................................. ....
Does this just go for "your interests" ? So I'm not allowed, according to your "ranting and raving", to say "anything" that is for the good for the majority of the "taxpayers" interests.

Are you that "biggotted"?

[speaker]

Here were a few things I picked up from the internet. But I haven't found the Treaty yet. Apparently the Senecas are made up of the other tribes, mostly Iroquois, French, English--it seems they adopted, rather than killed, displaced people. One reason was they believed in strength in numbers, and so many of their tribe had died off so they supplemented their population in this way.
1664
King Charles II, the British monarch, gives territory, which included Buffalo, to James, Duke of York. At the time the entire Western New York region is inhabited by thousands of American Indians of the Neuter, Erie and Seneca nations. Baron LaHonton marks the Buffalo site on his 1687 exploration map as "Fort Suppose.
1775
American Revolution (1775-1783):

Approximately twenty pioneer families live within a ten-mile radius of what is now Buffalo.

The American Revolution is disastrous for the Iroquois Confederacy. The confederacy, as such, refuses to take part in the conflict but allows each tribe to decide for itself, and all the tribes, except for the Oneida, join the British.

The Seneca Indians, as allies of the British, are slaughtered and banished from their ancestral home in the Genesee Valley. By the conclusion of the war, approximately 2000 Senecas have migrated westward to Fort Niagara on Lake Ontario and then southward through what would be Buffalo, to their final resting place along the Buffalo Creek.
1797
Sept. 15, the Treaty of Big Tree (near Geneseo) is signed with the Senecas. They sell their 1.3 million acres of land to Robert Morris for $100,000, and are restricted to five reservations on the Niagara frontier: Tonawanda, Allegany, Cattaraugus and Tuscarora Reservations as well as Buffalo Creek Reservation (a few blocks from what would be the Buffalo harbor; by 1850, Buffalo Creek Reservation will be abandoned and cleared for development.).

[speaker]

Here's the treaty--big as life

http://www.sni.org/treaty.html

btw--Morris then sold the land to the Holland Company

[dtwarren]

Actually if you want a through history of the Seneca and their claim to land in WNY read Judge Arcara's decision in their claim for Grand Island: http://www.upstate-citizens.org/Seneca_Nation.pdf

As far as taxes go the Indians are tax exempt in certain transactions. There is no treaty that exempt non-Indians on Indian land from taxataion see: http://www.upstate-citizens.org/Barry-Snyder-Tax-Decision.htm

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by speaker
Well, I don't hate Indians. They have been a noble race of people and were treated shabbily, to put it mildly, by white man. Really destroyed.

well in those days everybody on the receiving end of a good conquer was mistreated "badly", real badly. The indians werent any different.

And their big mistake was joining our enemy.

But that is some great research, speaker. Any news on the fate of the Onieda's?

[speaker]

Originally posted by dtwarren
Actually if you want a through history of the Seneca and their claim to land in WNY read Judge Arcara's decision in their claim for Grand Island: http://www.upstate-citizens.org/Seneca_Nation.pdf

As far as taxes go the Indians are tax exempt in certain transactions. There is no treaty that exempt non-Indians on Indian land from taxataion see: http://www.upstate-citizens.org/Barry-Snyder-Tax-Decision.htm

Makes it clear as a bell--thanks, dtwarren

[speaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dtwarren
[B]Actually if you want a through history of the Seneca and their claim to land in WNY read Judge Arcara's decision in their claim for Grand Island: http://www.upstate-citizens.org/Seneca_Nation.pdf

I did a cursory read due to the time of day but I look forward to this interesting stuff. Thanks again.

[hacktivist]

Well, since we're trading URLs here, let me throw one into the hat: http://digital.library.okstate.edu/kappler/Vol2/treaties/sen0537.htm

This is the landmark Treaty of 1842. Quoting from this:
The parties to this compact mutually agree to solicit the influence of the Government of the United States to protect such of the lands of the Seneca Indians, within the State of New York, as may from time to time remain in their possession from all taxes, and assessments for roads, highways, or any other purpose . . . .

Here's a page with lots of links to learn more: http://www.honorindiantreaties.org/learn/

[dtwarren]

Barry Snyder unsuccessfully argued that the Treaty of 1842 gave him the right to sell to non-Indians without collecting the taxes due and he lost:

http://www.upstate-citizens.org/snyder-wetzler-193AD2d329.pdf

Specifically relating to the 1842 treaty the court held:

"We find the Treaty clearly refers only to taxes levied upon real property or land. The history of the Treaty of 1842 is recited in New York Indians (72 U.S. 761, 766-768), where the issue was focused on real property taxes and assessments upon the rights to the land comprising the Cattaraugus and Allegany Reservations in New York. Pursuant to the earlier Treaty of 1838 made with the New York Indians also concluded at Buffalo Creek, the Seneca Reservations were sold to Thomas Ogden and Joseph Fellows, assignees of the preemption rights owned by Massachusetts. The Treaty provided a five-year period during which the Indians could occupy the land until the tribes were relocated. Certain disagreements with the Treaty of 1838 within the tribe membership ultimately were resolved in the Treaty of 1842, which restored the Cattaraugus and Allegany reservation lands to the Seneca Indians subject, however, to the preemption rights of Ogden and Fellows."


As far as the States ability to tax non-Indians on Indian land see the following unaniomous U.S. Supreme Court decision:

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/93-377.ZO.html

[moadib]

LUCKY IM NOT GOVERNOR, ID EVICT EVERY INDIAN, ABROGATE EVERY TREATY & USE IMINENT DOMAIN TO GET RID OF EVERY RESERVATION UNLESS THEY PAID TAXES.

IM TIRED OF THIS BULL.

PAY THE DARN TAXES OR CONTINUE TO MAKE MORE ENEMIES IN THE STATE.

KEEP IT UP AND THE NEXT TIME INDIANS BURN TIRES THERE WILL BE A BUNCH OF VIGILANTES PICKING THEM OFF WITH THEIR DEER RIFLES!

[speaker]

thanks for following up and getting all the facts, dtwarren, so we can all understand what really went on.
Moad--I'm not for evicting the Indian tribes or taking their land. Sometimes you write such insightful stuff but other times I wonder if you got dropped off from Mars.:confused:

[moadib]

YEAH, IM NOT FOR EVICTING ANYONE EITHER BUT...

I dont support another hundred years of lawsuits over Indian treaties that were signed 100-150 years ago

I dont support Indians renouncing their citizenship and claiming their sovereign whenever they encounter a law that they dont like...or a tax that they dont like

I dont support violence or threats of violence to intimidate non-indians

Look regardless of the Treaties or the Casino Compacts, their making millions of dollars and that money is only going to be used for more lawsuits against municipalities and more lobbying (as if NYS didnt have enough monied lobbyists).

IF INDIANS WANT TO MAINTAIN A TRADITIONAL WAY OF LIFE ON THEIR RESERVATION, I SUPPORT MAINTAINING THEIR SELF ADMINISTRATION.

HOWEVER, WHEN THEIR MEMBERS ARENT 100% INDIAN, WHEN THE RESIDENTS ON THE LAND ARE NON-INDIANS, WHEN THEIR BUSINESSES EMPLOY NON-INDIANS AND WHEN THEIR CUSTOMERS ARE NON-INDIANS.....THEN THEIR TRIBE IS JUST ANOTHER ETHNIC GROUP, THEIR LAND IS ORDINARY LAND, THEIR BUSINESSES ARE ORDINARY BUSINESSES.

EQUAL RIGHTS FOR EQUAL REPRESENTATION
EQUAL REPRESENTATION FOR EQUAL RIGHTS

CALL IT STUPID ALL YOU WANT BUT THE TIME FOR REVERSE DISCRIMINATION IS OVER! PLAY FAIR AND PLAY NICE, THEN YOU WILL GET EVERYONES RESPECT!

THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT ARE SPECIAL ARE THE SICK, THE POOR, THE HANDICAPPED AND THE ELDERLY FOR THEY CANNOT TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES AND LIVE BY THE GRACE OF OTHERS.