Are we at WAR??

[LaNdReW]

Well, are we at war???

If you think we are, will it ever end??

What about a declaration of war??

If the "war" on terror is like the "war on drugs" and all the other "wars" it will never end. Where does this leave the president and gov't explaining their use of "war" powers?

What about "mission accomplished"?
What about "last gasp"?

Does the Iraq "war" have anything to do with our freedom?
What is the cost of freedom? Soldiers lives? Our Liberties?

What do you guys think?

[Riven37]

I think you've got it !! this war on terror is a easy way to say America is given paybacks to those butt heads in the world..to do this people must die to show face...I'm sorry but this is the truth.:(

[LaNdReW]

Originally posted by Riven37
I think you've got it !! this war on terror is a easy way to say America is given paybacks to those butt heads in the world..to do this people must die to show face...I'm sorry but this is the truth.:(

Whaa????

So whaddya say ppl, are we at war or not??

[Stevenco]

It's about the money. The reason our guys are over there is because of business. Contracts. Billions and billions. Oil. Power. Greed. Hate. Violence. Death. War. This could all end real quick. They don't want it to. Both sides are way too Patriotic. AlQaida and Bush Admin. are both radical fundamentalists. It wouldn't be that hard to stop. What they are doing is not the right way if that infact is what they are trying to do. Alot of innocent people died so far, both, Iraqi, mostly and American.
AlQaida is not innocent:
but you've seen the pictures of innocent Iraqi children who got mangled and killed. They are not terrorists, nor are the vast majority of Iraqis who have been killed.
Bush Admin. is not innocent:
but you've seen the fallen American youngsters in uniform.
Innocent people are getting killed but the men who make the decision to go to war remain unscathed.

Both these organizations should chill out.

[Unsnivilized]

John Kaminski recently said it as well as I could IMHO

http://warfolly.vzz.net/therealwar.html


It's not just about markets and money, but values principles and "world orders" - the ppl(or internationalists/global cabalists) who are actually pushing these wars on the world have none worth speaking of and never have; so yes our freedom is tied to the war on Iraqis, as it's being waged on the rest of us as well.



http://www.threeworldwars.com

[steven]

Originally posted by Unsnivilized
John Kaminski recently said it as well as I could IMHO

http://warfolly.vzz.net/therealwar.html



There is a lot of contradictions in that writing IMHO

[biker]

Originally posted by Stevenco

Both these organizations should chill out.

I think Al Queda says, "You first."

[avet]

I believe that many "world policies", and even "events", are preplained at the very highly "top secret" Bilderberg meetings. Many "future" leaders, who attended these meetings, are the "hand picked", groomed, etc., and financially "guaranteed" to be instilled wherever these people "want" them.

It's security is as good, if not better, than the BEST military\secret service. It has operated for many years, yet NOBODY has EVER been able to obtain ANY information "WHATSOEVER" on what goes on inside these meetings. NO PICTURES, NO TAPES,.....ABSOLUTLY NOTHING! (unlike things like... Waco)

Big money\corporations are "known" to control & influence our government officials, local & federal. From voting, law making, taxes, lobbying etc. THAT'S A FACT. So, you can just imagine, how much control, ALL... "THE" ....RICHEST BILLIONAIRES, from around the world, gathered up in one meeting, can have, ....if they pool their knowledge\resources? It's way, way, way, beyond "belief".

Controlling the "masses" is key. To prevent "revolting" of the "masses" (the poor), they keep us "distracted" from reality, by creating "major time-consuming struggles", such as, financial insecurity, job insecurity (flooding the market with cheap labor), dividing (left vs. rt, etc), flag waving, war, religious conflicts, fear, terrorism, illiteratcy (cut as much funding for the poor, as possible), health problems (no health insurance), etc ....ANYTHING & EVERYTHING that will keep our "rational" brain, severly "occupied" in a quagmire of "DEEP DEEP SH**" , instead of concentrating on what's really happening.
It's the "oldest" trick in the book. Make them watch your left hand while the right one is digging through your pocket. ("The Sting", with Paul Newman?) Who can create wars? Struggles? Strife? ...the government. Well, "if" the government is owned by "big money",....who are we actually serving?

The very thing, that was set up to protect us (the Constitution),....from this very problem, is being attacked & torn apart, by ....OUR VERY OWN GOVERNMENT. Bit by tiny bit, while you worry about attacks, job security, health, retirement, religion, etc. It's been a very slow process, over the years, but if you have half a brain, & get the "facts", you can easily see it The facts are right there, in front of your face, but your too worried about wmd's, terrorism, Al-Qaeda , other sh**, etc.

All ....the LAWS...the PROFITS....the TAXES...ETC, have been, over the years, "SEVERLY LEVERAGED" towards the benefits of BIG BUSINESS ONLY, and it is READILY SHOWING - IN NOTHING BUT MAJOR, HUGE, "RECORD BREAKING PROFITS". C.E.O.'S salaries are ....."OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE" !!!

The regular, average, ordinary, citizen has "LOST" many of his rights. Has "LOST" his income. Has "LOST" his sense of security. Some have lost their meager homes. Has "LOST" his sense of pride in saying "I'm an American". (remember the lost old saying you used to see a lot of - "Made in America"?) Has lost his hope in feeling protected ( 9-11, Katrina, etc) despite TRILLIONS of their tax dollars spent (mostly secretly - unaccounted for) on the national security. And the DEBT is getting "totally unreasonable", and GROWING GREATER EVERY DAY. Where's all the $$$$$$$$$$ going??

Example: Cheney is "still" collecting somewhere in the neighborhood, of a MILLION dollars a year from "NO BID - UNACCOUNTABLE - NO WHISTLEBLOWING ALLOWED" HALLIBURTON, and he's not even with that company anymore ? Whose funding HALLIBURTON? The taxpayers. Where's the $ACRIFICE? Where's the FREEKIN "honor" ? Do some homework & see what his daughter is doing. She DEFINITLY .....ain't in IRAQ !! The only "Bush" in Iraq, .....is planted outside, .....behind the barracks latrine !

THEY WANT MORE .... "CHEAP LABOR" !! SCREW ANY & ALL OF YOU!! (EVEN IF YOUR AN EX- "HONORABLE" VET). They "WANT" "illegals",....they got 'em. They want a super-ridiculous, low, Min wage,....they got it.
Pensions?? THEY CAN'T AFFORD THEM! It's "history"! Health insurance ?? THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! It's "history"!

It's the CORPORATIONS that set the POLICIES (through gov't control), that make "price gouging" (despite all the cost cuts assoc with "all" the previous) ....SO EASY, SO UNACCOUNTABLE, & .....EXTREMELY PROFITABLE. But YET,... they ....get the tax cuts. AND THAT'S A FACT,...JACK !

They scream ......"Al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda,.....the Al-Qaeda are comming!!!! PROTECT ME, .....PROTECT ME !! "

We have to worry about.....JUST TRYING TO MAKE A GO OF "EVERYDAY LIVING" (NECESSITIES) IN "AMERICA"

THAT'S THE ......"REAL WAR" (sting) IN THE REAL WORLD.

[Stevenco]

Originally posted by avet
I believe that many "world policies", and even "events", are preplained at the very highly "top secret" Bilderberg meetings. Many "future" leaders, who attended these meetings, are the "hand picked", groomed, etc., and financially "guaranteed" to be instilled wherever these people "want" them.

It's security is as good, if not better, than the BEST military\secret service. It has operated for many years, yet NOBODY has EVER been able to obtain ANY information "WHATSOEVER" on what goes on inside these meetings. NO PICTURES, NO TAPES,.....ABSOLUTLY NOTHING! (unlike things like... Waco)

Big money\corporations are "known" to control & influence our government officials, local & federal. From voting, law making, taxes, lobbying etc. THAT'S A FACT. So, you can just imagine, how much control, ALL... "THE" ....RICHEST BILLIONAIRES, from around the world, gathered up in one meeting, can have, ....if they pool their knowledge\resources? It's way, way, way, beyond "belief".

Controlling the "masses" is key. To prevent "revolting" of the "masses" (the poor), they keep us "distracted" from reality, by creating "major time-consuming struggles", such as, financial insecurity, job insecurity (flooding the market with cheap labor), dividing (left vs. rt, etc), flag waving, war, religious conflicts, fear, terrorism, illiteratcy (cut as much funding for the poor, as possible), health problems (no health insurance), etc ....ANYTHING & EVERYTHING that will keep our "rational" brain, severly "occupied" in a quagmire of "DEEP DEEP SH**" , instead of concentrating on what's really happening.
It's the "oldest" trick in the book. Make them watch your left hand while the right one is digging through your pocket. ("The Sting", with Paul Newman?) Who can create wars? Struggles? Strife? ...the government. Well, "if" the government is owned by "big money",....who are we actually serving?

The very thing, that was set up to protect us (the Constitution),....from this very problem, is being attacked & torn apart, by ....OUR VERY OWN GOVERNMENT. Bit by tiny bit, while you worry about attacks, job security, health, retirement, religion, etc. It's been a very slow process, over the years, but if you have half a brain, & get the "facts", you can easily see it The facts are right there, in front of your face, but your too worried about wmd's, terrorism, Al-Qaeda , other sh**, etc.

All ....the LAWS...the PROFITS....the TAXES...ETC, have been, over the years, "SEVERLY LEVERAGED" towards the benefits of BIG BUSINESS ONLY, and it is READILY SHOWING - IN NOTHING BUT MAJOR, HUGE, "RECORD BREAKING PROFITS". C.E.O.'S salaries are ....."OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE" !!!

The regular, average, ordinary, citizen has "LOST" many of his rights. Has "LOST" his income. Has "LOST" his sense of security. Some have lost their meager homes. Has "LOST" his sense of pride in saying "I'm an American". (remember the lost old saying you used to see a lot of - "Made in America"?) Has lost his hope in feeling protected ( 9-11, Katrina, etc) despite TRILLIONS of their tax dollars spent (mostly secretly - unaccounted for) on the national security. And the DEBT is getting "totally unreasonable", and GROWING GREATER EVERY DAY. Where's all the $$$$$$$$$$ going??

Example: Cheney is "still" collecting somewhere in the neighborhood, of a MILLION dollars a year from "NO BID - UNACCOUNTABLE - NO WHISTLEBLOWING ALLOWED" HALLIBURTON, and he's not even with that company anymore ? Whose funding HALLIBURTON? The taxpayers. Where's the $ACRIFICE? Where's the FREEKIN "honor" ? Do some homework & see what his daughter is doing. She DEFINITLY .....ain't in IRAQ !! The only "Bush" in Iraq, .....is planted outside, .....behind the barracks latrine !

THEY WANT MORE .... "CHEAP LABOR" !! SCREW ANY & ALL OF YOU!! (EVEN IF YOUR AN EX- "HONORABLE" VET). They "WANT" "illegals",....they got 'em. They want a super-ridiculous, low, Min wage,....they got it.
Pensions?? THEY CAN'T AFFORD THEM! It's "history"! Health insurance ?? THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! It's "history"!

It's the CORPORATIONS that set the POLICIES (through gov't control), that make "price gouging" (despite all the cost cuts assoc with "all" the previous) ....SO EASY, SO UNACCOUNTABLE, & .....EXTREMELY PROFITABLE. But YET,... they ....get the tax cuts. AND THAT'S A FACT,...JACK !

They scream ......"Al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda,.....the Al-Qaeda are comming!!!! PROTECT ME, .....PROTECT ME !! "

We have to worry about.....JUST TRYING TO MAKE A GO OF "EVERYDAY LIVING" (NECESSITIES) IN "AMERICA"

THAT'S THE ......"REAL WAR" (sting) IN THE REAL WORLD.

Most people prefer the fictional version. You know, the one on the TV. It's easier to take even though it does not add up. Maybe that's why they want everyone to have cable. If they keep feeding you this BS, after awhile this repetition works.

[Unsnivilized]

Originally posted by avet
I believe that many "world policies", and even "events", are preplained at the very highly "top secret" Bilderberg meetings. Many "future" leaders, who attended these meetings, are the "hand picked", groomed, etc., and financially "guaranteed" to be instilled wherever these people "want" them.


Are you familiar with Albert Pike? The Bilderberg group is just part of the bigger picture..

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=1086

http://www.american-buddha.com/proofkuklux.htm (requires registration, they won't spam you or anything)

[mikewrona]

Originally posted by LaNdReW
Whaa????

So whaddya say ppl, are we at war or not??

It will certainly be an unending war this war on terrorism.

A long time ago Moses said let my people go. What happened and how many times did it happen after the Pharoah said "No"?

Maybe that's where people got the idea that terrorism is a means to an end.

[DR_GONZO]

Corporate Profit is Why We Fight!
http://www.crrange.com/flagupsidedwn.gif

"The end of democracy, and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending institutions and moneyed incorporations."-Thomas Jefferson

"if tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."-James Madison

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."-George Washington

"True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else."-Clarence Darrow

"Loyalty to your country always; loyalty to your government when it deserves it."-Mark Twain

[Stevenco]

Originally posted by DR_GONZO
[B]

"if tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."-James Madison

"

"the guise" is the operative word here. I'm glad some of you can see. I thought I was the only one who was crazy.:)

[biker]

This thread really needs this:

http://oldbluejacket.com/General_Patton_Message.htm

[DR_GONZO]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the 'Right of the People' to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their 'Safety and Happiness'.-Thomas Jefferson, American Declaration of Independence

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[DelawareDistrict]

The hidden cost of this "war" . . .

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/coffins.jpg

The picture(s) Bush doesn't want you to see.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/hands.jpg

[biker]

Not very hidden.

There are millions of us very thankful for the brave sacrifices our young (and some not so) men and women have made on our behalf.

Why don't you post some pictures of the terrorists holding up severed heads to remind people what our soldiers, sailors and airmen are fighting against?

[steven]

I doubt the soldier in that picture wanted you to use him to make a point DelawareDistrict.

The coffins where enough to make your point, but the soldier on the table....IMHO that was in very bad taste man.

[DelawareDistrict]

If anyone was offended by the pictures, I apologize. That was not my intent. I appreciate your concern Steven. I did give the matter of which pictures to use quite a bit of thought and rejected many others as much too gruesome. I was simply trying to illustrate the point that while some people have lost their lives in this "war", others will be living with the scars for a long time to come.

[avet]

DelawareDistrict, what you showed in those pictures, is just a very, very, TINY piece of the "REALITY" of war. That is "exactly" what some need to see, to show that,.....THAT GUY IS NOT JUST ANOTHER NUMBER ADDED TO ANOTHER FREEKIN' ...."STATISTIC".

That "statistic" on the table is a REAL PERSON. Somebody's father, somebody's brother, somebody's son, somebody's best friend, who now, and FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, MAY NOT HAVE HANDS OR AN ARM, or worst yet DIE.

It's a hard enough pill to swallow,.... when it's "justified"...but under the simple pretext of when it was done to support a "parties" agenda, based on ......"lies"......

IMHO that was in very bad taste man.
_______________________________________________

Hey biker, you want to see more severed heads ?

"IF", I repeat "IF", we had a "proper system" of ....checks and balances....we would be able to watch the majority of your "party" figures (heros)... at all their ..."hearings".

But since your "party" seen to it, THAT "ANY", AND NEARLY "ALL" INVESTIGATIONS OF "ANY" KIND OF BREAKING OF THE LAW, WHISTLEBLOWING, & EXPRESSING OF OPINIONS (it's called telling "truth" in a REAL DEMOCRACY - BAD-MOUTHING to ALL in your "party") is NOT AN OPTION, YOU WILL NOT see too many (empty) heads severed.

YOUR "PARTY" HAS GIVEN A TOTALLY NEW NWO MEANING TO THE WORDS...."it's a matter of nat'l security" and "justified". Hopefully, SOMEDAY SOON, that will "end", for the good of America, and for all our sakes - including your "kids" (your people in your "party" mention that repeatedly, in almost all rhetoric - like the "no child left behind , by certain others - the "sentiment" it's supposed to create, is just so...F.O.S. !!! It's ONLY genuine, until the "kids" need schooling, food, or health care - once they get old enough, they can be just like the guy in the picture - right? Then you can pass on some more of your "genuine" heartfelt sentiment. My God....ain't this party $y$tem grand,.... biker? You never once had to shed a drop, or worst yet, worry about getting your head severed - GOD,..... only in America.Inc)

[biker]

There seems to be a fit of massive, self-induced amnesia as to why we’re in this war. To help refresh your memories, I’ll reproduce some rules obtained a couple of months ago when our troops captured an insurgent safe-house:

Al Qaeda Handbook Rules

Rule #1-When slicing off someone’s head, be sure to do it with a dull knife so plenty of blood flows onto the floor and have it on video so it can be immediately broadcast on Al Jazeera. It will motivate the liberals in the United States to immediately blame it on America.

[avet]

Rule #2 Use rusty, bent, toe-nail clippers

Rule #3 Steal from the poor & give to the "have mores"

Rule #4 Keep them swamped in lies, then ...lie some more

Rule #5 Supply the enemy with WMD's, then tell 'em to "bring it on", as you kill 'em & everybody else nearby who happens to just be there

Rule #6 Take away their jobs, futures, pensions, make them work longer\harder

Rule #7 Don't let them have acess to any health care - let 'em suffer, it keeps them in check.

Rule #8 Keep 'em ALL under constant, thorough, comprehensive, surveilance

Rule #9 Did I say lie?

Rule #10 Hit them with a big case of some major unchecked "price gouging"

Rule #11 Lie some more

Rule #12 Always keep 'em scared sh**less - tales of extremely brutal nail trimming (show 'em the rusty, dull, toe-nail clippers - with close-up graphic examples of the dirty clippings)

Rule #13 Lie ! Don't tell "ME" I already said that !!!!.... it's just another one "your" ....vicious, attacks !!

Rule #14 Create a "party" in control that is "untouchable", "unaccountable", "corrupt", & good at lying.

Rule #15 NEVER tell 'em the FACTS, about "ANYTHING". Especially when they really need it.

Rule #16 Never accept any responsibility for lying, it was the other guy, or "party".

Rule #17 Keep repeating, the same lies, over, & over, & over, & over........

Rule #18 When they catch you in a blatent, proveable, lie,....SO WHAT, WHO CARES, PLAY "CAN'T TOUCH THIS" on your major media networks.

Rule #19 Do whatever you want, you answer to NO ONE - JUST DO IT !!

Rule #20 If the above doesn't work, & you are questioned by anybody, ....lie directly in their face !

Rule #21 Spend their money like a "drunk sailor" on his 1st leave, then make 'em come up with more - who cares "how"

[biker]

You're hard to set off.

I have more rules, but I'll let you continue.

[steven]

Originally posted by avet
DelawareDistrict, what you showed in those pictures, is just a very, very, TINY piece of the "REALITY" of war. That is "exactly" what some need to see, to show that,.....THAT GUY IS NOT JUST ANOTHER NUMBER ADDED TO ANOTHER FREEKIN' ...."STATISTIC".

That "statistic" on the table is a REAL PERSON. Somebody's father, somebody's brother, somebody's son, somebody's best friend, who now, and FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE, MAY NOT HAVE HANDS OR AN ARM, or worst yet DIE.


Yes that is a real person on that table avet and as a former soldier who has had friends laid out on tables like that one I still dont think its cool to use it.

If your sisster or mother where raped would you like it if someone posted a picture of her in tears in the hospital getting tested for hiv immediatly after it happened?

How do you think all the board members who have family friends and loved ones overseas right now feel after seeing that?

[mikewrona]

Originally posted by steven
Yes that is a real person on that table avet and as a former soldier who has had friends laid out on tables like that one I still dont think its cool to use it.

If your sisster or mother where raped would you like it if someone posted a picture of her in tears in the hospital getting tested for hiv immediatly after it happened?

How do you think all the board members who have family friends and loved ones overseas right now feel after seeing that?

Unfortunately, the truth hurts. War is not a happy "kill them all and let God sort them out" good time.

[Stevenco]

Originally posted by biker
There are millions of us very thankful for the brave sacrifices

There is no such thing as an unnecessary sacrifice.

It's time to wake up.

[DelawareDistrict]

Eight Facts About Iraq (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/vance2.html)

The Bush administration, its accomplices in the news media, and the conservative talk show hacks who do the bidding of the Republican party have sold America a bill of goods. The invasion of Iraq was justified, we have been led to believe, because Saddam Hussein was the reincarnation of Adolph Hitler, Iraq was in the position of Germany on the eve of World War II, and the "elite" Republican Guard was the equivalent of the German Wehrmacht. According to the president himself: "We will end a brutal regime, whose aggression and weapons of mass destruction make it a unique threat to the world."

Right wing Christians too, who ought to know better, have also been duped because of their misplaced trust in the state just because it is currently controlled by the Republican party (the same Republican party that is expanding government at a rate not seen since the Democratic administrations of Lyndon Johnson and Franklin Roosevelt).

Located at the northern tip of the Persian Gulf, and encompassing the land of ancient Mesopotamia, as well as the biblical Tigris and Euphrates rivers, the country of Iraq, which until recently could not be located on a map by most Americans, is now the focus of all Americans. But because most Americans are woefully ignorant of history, and especially the history of U.S. intervention into other countries; and because most Christians are just as ignorant of history, and especially Christians who spend all their time believing what they read in the newspaper, hear on the radio, and see on television, some facts about Iraq are in order.

Fact Number 1: There was no country of Iraq until it was created by the British in 1920. In 1534 the Ottoman Turks conquered the area of what is now Iraq. Here the Ottoman empire ruled until its defeat in World War I because Turkey sided with the Central powers. After World War I, the French and British divided up the formerly Ottoman-controlled lands in the Middle East. France was given a League of Nations mandate over Syria and Lebanon; Great Britain was given the same over Palestine, Transjordan, and Iraq. The modern state of Iraq was created out of the three Ottoman provinces of Basra, Mosul, and Baghdad. The defeat of the Turks may have brought to an end the Ottoman empire, but it began a century of Western imperialism.

Fact Number 2: The United States already sponsored two previous regime changes in Iraq. Under their League of Nations mandate, the British installed King Faisal as the ruler of Iraq. But even after its independence, Iraq was still controlled by Britain. Faisal’s dynasty lasted until his grandson Faisal II was executed in a 1958 coup. The Hitler in Iraq in the early 1960s was Abd al-Karim Qasim. After deposing the Western-allied Iraqi monarchy in 1958, Qasim was seen by the U.S. as a counter to Gamal Abdel Nassar of Egypt. But after he was perceived as too much of a threat to Western oil interests, Qasim was killed in February 1963 in a CIA-sponsored coup by the anti-Communist Baath party. American firms soon began doing business with Baghdad. All was not well, however, in the Baath party, for in 1968 an internal coup brought to power General Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr, who was succeeded by Saddam Hussein in 1979. These regime changes in Iraq were both accompanied by bloody reprisals.

Fact Number 3: Saddam Hussein was an ally of the United States until the first Persian Gulf War. The U.S.-Hussein connection actually goes all the way back to the late 1950s. Hussein was part of a group that tried to assassinate Abd al-Karim Qasim after he seized power in 1958. Fleeing Iraq, he eventually settled in Cairo, Egypt, where he was courted by the CIA. During the 1980s, when Iraq was at war with Iran, military intelligence was provided to Iraq because the United States sought to do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran. The U.S. problem with Iran stemmed from decades of American intervention that backfired when radical Shiite Muslims overthrew the Shah and installed the Ayatollah Khomeini. The United States has a bad habit of collaborating with tyrants who later come back to bite us. Who can forget that Joseph Stalin, one of the bloodiest killers who ever lived, was our "ally" in World War II?

Fact Number 4: Iraq got its "weapons of mass destruction" from the United States. This started after the Baath party coup of 1963, when the U.S. sent arms to the new regime. But during the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s, when, under the successive administrations of Reagan and Bush I, Saddam Hussein was our ally against Iran, it was not just arms that were provided to Iraq. According to the 1992 U.S. Senate committee report on U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq, "the United States provided the government of Iraq with ‘dual use’ licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs." This included anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs, botulism, salmonella, and E coli.

Fact Number 5: Iraq was a liberal Muslim state. Iraq is made up of three major groups: the Kurds, the Shiites, and the Sunnis. The Shiites, which are in the majority, are the more radical Muslims. The ruling Baath party was more closely associated with the more moderate Sunnis, which make up about 35 percent of the population. Unlike Saudi Arabia, Iran, and most other Muslim states, Iraq was not controlled by a fundamentalist Muslim government, something that is now a possibility. One could even purchase a drink in Baghdad. The Baath government tolerated both Jews and Christians, something not to be seen in Muslim countries like Indonesia, Turkey, and Iran.

Fact Number 6: Iraq was not responsible for the 9-11 attacks on the United States. Many Americans who supported the war with Iraq did so because they were led to believe that the U.S. was retaliating for the terrorist attacks on September 11. Yet, none of the hijackers of the airplanes on September 11 were from Iraq (or Afghanistan). They were mainly from Saudi Arabia, our supposed Muslim ally in the Middle East. No connection has ever been proved between Iraq and al-Qaeda or Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. There is even evidence that the invasion of Iraq was planned before the September 11 attacks. A September 2000 document issued by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) entitled "Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategies, Forces and Resources For A New Century," drawn up by Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz, shows that Bush’s cabinet intended to take military control of the Persian Gulf region regardless of whether Saddam Hussein was in power.

Fact Number 7: Iraq was not a threat to the United States. Although Bush’s initial justification for war was that Iraq was a "threat to the United Nations" (certainly no reason for the U.S. to go to war), this was soon shifted to Iraq being a threat to the United States. But even though Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld insisted that "no terrorist state poses a greater and more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq," the condition of Iraq said otherwise. Not only was Iraq’s army considerably weaker than it was during the first Persian Gulf War – a war in which Iraq only managed to kill 148 Americans – but Iraq had no navy or air force. Iraq’s economy was in ruin after a decade of sanctions – sanctions that destroyed its water supplies. The GNP of Iraq was not even 15 percent of that of the state of Washington. The only time in history when Iraq did actually attack the United States – an Iraqi warplane attacked a U.S. ship in the Persian Gulf in 1987 resulting in the killing of dozens of U.S. sailors – we did nothing because Iraq apologized for its "mistake." No, the greatest threat to freedoms of the American people is not Iraq. The greatest threat to the freedoms of the American people is not some country six thousand miles away; it is our own government. How is it that in a country with such a heritage of individual liberty like the United States, one can smoke in a restaurant in Baghdad, but not in Manhattan? How is it that in a country with a Christian heritage like the United States, one can buy a gun in Baghdad, but not in Washington D. C.? If Iraq’s neighboring countries did not feel the need to send troops to Baghdad, then why did we?

Fact Number 8: Iraq is the Mideast’s second largest oil producer. Although this is a fact that everyone knows, it is downplayed by all proponents of the war with Iraq. But if oil has nothing to do with the U.S. intervening in Iraq, then why hasn’t the U.S. intervened in Sudan, where 2 million Christians have been killed during the past decade? What about the persecution of Christians in Indonesia? Why hasn’t the U.S. intervened in Zimbabwe, where the Marxist tyrant Robert Mugabe has been confiscating the country’s farmland? Why has Fidel Castro – 90 miles away from our shores – been untouched for 40 years? Why didn’t the U.S. instigate a "regime change" when Idi Amin was killing thousands of his own black people in Uganda in the 1970s? Why didn’t the U.S. instigate a "regime change" when the Tutsis were slaughtered by the Hutu government of Rwanda in 1994? Would things have been different if Sudan, Indonesia, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Uganda, and Rwanda had significant oil reserves?

These sobering facts, unknown to Americans who get all their news from ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, FOX, and CNBC, should cause every citizen, and especially every Christian, to question the motives of the state the next time it is insisted that we should invade another country. They should also cause all Americans to question the necessity of the United States maintaining 184 military bases in over 100 countries around the world. God never appointed the United States to be the world’s policeman.

[Stevenco]

Too long to read. I'll tighten it up for you. "They're lying to us."

[DelawareDistrict]

Originally posted by Stevenco
Too long to read. I'll tighten it up for you. "They're lying to us."

Fact Number 6 is the most illuminating.

[biker]

A lot of words for a load of crap.

Your point #6---like most of this type of bunk--presumes that most Americans are idiots. We're not. There are some bad actors out there and we'll take pre-emptive (haven't heard that word in a while) action to protect ourselves. We understand we're not going to have uniformed soldiers attacking us, a la the Japanese.

Iraq was a liberal state? Maybe, but only in the context of its neighbors mired in the "glory days" of the seventh century.

What happened to the "century of imperialism" that supposedly started in 1920? Things seemed to have gone off the Western hegemony track in the 1950s.

If we had stolen their oil fair and square and let the buggers farm the sand, the ol' imperial crap might work for me.

[biker]

I always notice two things with you sob sisters.

ONE-At some point in the past, the USA in general and the CIA in particular were all-powerful. Controlling and manipulating (always successfully) all around the world.

TWO-The only time these noble savages whack us is because we made them. Junk like “The U.S. problem with Iran stemmed from decades of American intervention that backfired when radical Shiite Muslims overthrew the Shah and installed the Ayatollah Khomeini.”

Get real. Like the whackos in Iran didn’t on their own decide to oust the Shah in favor of Ayatollah Komeanie. And now they’ve just elected the next-generation whacko as their president. Who wants to eradicate Israel and believes that the Holocaust is a PR trick.


Why don’t you just give us the inside poop on that one: the new Iranian prez is an Israeli plant, installed by the CIA to pave the way for a strike by the USA/Israel (one being interchangeable with the other.)

[steven]

Originally posted by mikewrona
Unfortunately, the truth hurts. War is not a happy "kill them all and let God sort them out" good time.

Remarkable how you missed the whole point of what I posted.
How many combat tours have you served?

[mikewrona]

Originally posted by steven
Remarkable how you missed the whole point of what I posted.
How many combat tours have you served?

I haven't. But my wife came home from the 1st Gulf War for head surgery and 1+ year of recovery and is now partially disabled.

But what does that have to do with anything about hiding the truth about the victims of war?

[avet]

Yes that is a real person on that table avet and as a former soldier who has had friends laid out on tables like that one I still dont think its cool to use it.
I throughly respect that you feel that way. Sometimes the unplesantness must be kept away from view, ....but I feel, that sometimes the many who has never really seen it, and never will, should and deserve to see an occasional dose of the "reality", that results from their actions. Even pictures don't do it justice, as you well know. It is NOT just a video "game" of Battlefield 2, where you just start over, if you get killed. That picture (with the face blocked over) is their ONLY clue. whatsoever, on what it's really like, and YES, it SHOULD bring up feelings of total "disgust", .....otherwise, those who want this sh**, WILL make it .....GO ON FOREVER, and that's a FACT, in my opinion. THERE IS NO WINNING THIS WAR WHICH SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN STARTED IN THE FIRST FREEKIN PLACE. YOU CANNOT "COMPLETELY" ELIMINATE THE THREAT OF TERRORISTS, IT IS ..."IMPOSSIBLE". If anything, this war, has made it 1000 fold WORSE.

We were forced into it, with spoonfed lies of WMD's. WHERE DID SADAM GET THEM?

Then, the motivation for this war changed to ..."GET SADAM" after finding WMD's became a "running JOKE" in bushs' own office. "....nope their not here ! (looking under his desk & elsewhere)
WE FINALLY DID GET HIM ! WHY ARE WE STILL OCCUPYING IRAQ YRS. LATER???????

HE'S GOING TO "ELIMINATE" TERRORISM ?????? (I'D FREEKIN LAUGH AND MAKE JOKES - BUT QUITE FRANKLY, I SEE NOTHING FUNNY ABOUT PEOPLE CONTINUING TO SUFFER OR DIE.)

Saddam "killed his own". My God...we provided the freekin weapons! The other day, I watched a program where, in another country, THEY STILL "EAT" THEIR OWN !!! WHY DON'T WE INVADE THEM?? WHAT, ......NO HUGE PROFIT$ IN ....BANANAS ??

I'm not saying let's make a daily collage of it. One picture (again, with the face blocked) is not trying to induce "shame" on the family back home in any way,(as per a "rape" picture), it is to make them realize if what their allowing to happen is worth the "price" that the guy on the table, or the 1st photo, is paying. That "one" photo says more than a thousand "pretty" bs pictures of the surrounding landscape in the mainstream multimedia news.

How do you think all the board members who have family friends and loved ones overseas right now feel after seeing that?
I HOPE THEIR MOTAVATED.... TO END IT REAL SOON, AND BRING THEM HOME, BEFORE THEIR ....ON A TABLE. I'D FEEL A LOT SAFER WITH THEM HERE, GUARDING OUR .... "CLOSED"...... freekin boarders (if bush has one tenth the "brain" & really cared to protect "us" Americans). For the money we spent in Iraq, we could have built a "Taj Mahall" of walls, & STILL had TON'S of money left over to keep or economy strong, ....like it used to be.

They have NO PROBLEM "WHATSOEVER" SECURING THOUSANDS & THOUSANDS OF ACRES AROUND AREA 51 - DO THEY?

[biker]

Originally posted by avet
to keep or economy strong, ....like it used to be.


You really oughta get out more; the economy is doing great.

They should build the wall, but for other reasons.

[avet]

the economy is doing great.

Ah.ha,ha,ha! Tell that to every baby not even "born yet" - as they slap their butt, they get a huge tax bill, stapled to their incubator.

[WestSideJohn]

Regarding the pictures:

Let's put aside for the moment the discussion of whether the war in Iraq is right/wrong or smart/stupid. If we're sending our troops to the other side of the world, then the very least we owe them is to be informed about why they're there, to be aware of what they face over there, and to constantly weigh the cost against the benefit. That would mean a lot more than slapping a magnet on your car and thinking you're "supporting the troops."

Every American should see these photos. If the war is just and right, your opinion won't change from seeing these images, as sad as they may be. If the war is not just or right, then these images will remind you just what is at stake.

[DelawareDistrict]

The people who still support this "war" demonstrate a glaring fault of many humans, the inability to admit they were wrong. Any person who looks at ALL the facts and still supports this war has obviously been mesmerized by a President who lies and fans the flames of patriotism to achieve his imperialistic agenda. There was no urgent reason to attack Iraq other than the eventual collapse of the "politically correct" justification Bush used. Now that the collapse has occured, you have two groups of people in this country - those who recongnize a red herring when they see one, and those who don't, further increasing the polarization of this nation.

As far as our wonderful economy goes, Bush has increased the federal debt approximately $2.6 trillion since he first took office. At the current rate he will leave us with an increase of $4.16 trillion over 8 years, a 73.3% increase in debt. Around mid-February, the National debt limit will have to be raised by Congress to prevent the Federal government from grinding to a halt. The national debt has grown by $1.6 billion per day since September 30, 2003.

[Stevenco]

Yeah, four airliners were successfully hijacked simultaneously with boxcutters. Oh wait, one was shot down, uh, i mean one of the cockpits was bumrushed by the passengers.
And the dish ran away with the spoon. - Mother Goose

Most of you won't realize this domesticly fabricated attack was a pretext for war profiteering until it's common knowledge.

[biker]

Originally posted by Stevenco
Yeah, four airliners were successfully hijacked simultaneously with boxcutters. Oh wait, one was shot down, uh, i mean one of the cockpits was bumrushed by the passengers.
And the dish ran away with the spoon. - Mother Goose

Most of you won't realize this domesticly fabricated attack was a pretext for war profiteering until it's common knowledge.

So--FDR carried out the PH attack with the Japanese, right?

[farmall806]

This war would have ended much sooner if it went nuclear.

[Unsnivilized]

Originally posted by biker
So--FDR carried out the PH attack with the Japanese, right?

Ever heard of the McCollum memo?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/


The US had long been agitating Germany to provoke them into committing a blatant act of war against the US which would have allowed Roosevelt and all to drag America in, while on the homefront agitating the American people against Germany with endless propaganda such as this http://www.ihr.org/books/kaufman/perish.html along with the standard hollywood fare. (much as is done by yourself and others against Arabs/Muslims/Iraqis/Saudis, etc.,). Anyways, where they failed with Germany they succeeded with Japan.

Same with 9.11, PNAC openly declared and stated on the record that there was a need for a "new Pearl Harbor" to facilitate their agendas.

[Unsnivilized]

Originally posted by DelawareDistrict
Fact Number 6 is the most illuminating.

Fact: Several of the hijackers were found to be "alive and well" in the days following 9.11, even BBC briefly reported it before someone put them in line with the "official" version, the alleged hijackers were victims of identy theft.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

Fact: At least five suspects were arrested hours after 9.11, with hard physical evidence linking them directly to the crime scene, along with videotape they themselves took from a roof while cheering and celebrating, all of them ostensibly working for a moving company.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=consp_911&Number=294189095&part=1

Fact: Foreign intelligence services were "watching"(more likely handling) the identity theives posing as Arab terrorists, which has been admitted and is common knowledge. http://www.solosistim.com/911mossad-cachemirror.html

Some of these identity theives aka alleged Arab terrorists were visiting a casino boat owned by Jack Abramoff, yes *that* Jack Abramoff, prior to 9.11. There's also the Odigo warnings, etc., etc., etc.,

The Saudi's done it evidence is rather flimsy where existent and is based much more on Islamophobic sentiment than alleged facts.



On the photos posted, too many people in the US would rather reap the (percieved) benefits of wars while only seeing the controlled and "sanitized" Frankenversion presented to them by hollywood and the 6 o'clock news rather than the actual humanity of it all. Which is in worst taste??

The guy's face is blacked out so I would think that takes away from the privacy argument a tad.

[steven]

The answear to the question that started this thread
"Are we At War"

No we are not.
My proof: The US Government
Soldiers are payed combat pay during war time. Soldiers serving in the gulf are not recieving combat pay they are getting hazardous duty pay (a lot less $$$$$ and taxable)


Originally posted by mikewrona
I haven't.

I have. So kindly save your lectures on what is and isnt war to someone that hasnt been.


Originally posted by mikewrona
my wife came home from the 1st Gulf War for head surgery and 1+ year of recovery and is now partially disabled.
But what does that have to do with anything about hiding the truth about the victims of war?

Soldiers are not actors or politicians they are not public figures to be exploited to buttress up your opinion on one subject or another.

I am very much against whats going on in Iraq. Just as I was offended by the "you must be against the troops if you dont go along with me" campaign waged by Bush and his croonies. By using pictures such as that you have just stooped to that very same level.

My guess would be that soldier in the picture at the very least lost an arm. You people just took his dignity.

Leaving someone with there dignity is not "hiding" anything its showing a little class. I am going to leave this thread now before I say something that will really get me in trouble.

[biker]

I read your links, Unsnivilized. I've completely changed my mind.

The Israelis are the true force for depravity in the Middle East, perhaps the entire world.

The hijackings and murders over the past forty years have all been news media distortions in a media dominated by world Jewry.

Soon, the world will know that the Iranian president is actually Golda Meir in disguise.

[biker]

Continuing a litinous day:

Al Qaeda Handbook Rules

Rule #2-when beheading someone, have a gang of fellow terrorists standing around yelling and screaming “Allah Akbar!!” (God is great!!) It will motivate fellow Muslims to think this is an honorable deed and better yet it will motivate the liberals in the United States to immediately blame it on America.

Rule #3-When detonating a suicide bomb, get into the most crowded place you can find full of innocent people, especially women and children, so you can wreak as much havoc and destruction and kill as many innocent people as possible. It will motivate the liberals in the United States to blame it on America (Nota bene: this rule can be overdone, as Jordan has sadly shown us. We leave this to the good taste of the individual bomber/martyr.)

[DR_GONZO]

Am I the only non-lib, non-con, that finds major fault with my own government? Or do you have to be a lib or a con in order to be a critic? Seems both only blame the other for everything and anything. Now that is f'd up. That is also old and tired. One day, we'll have a government for the people, by the people, again. It will be void of the corporate whore dual party that has divided this nation.

[biker]

No kiddin! You sound pure as the driven snow.

Hey. Did I tell you that I'm pro-Arab?

[Unsnivilized]

Originally posted by DR_GONZO
Am I the only non-lib, non-con, that finds major fault with my own government? Or do you have to be a lib or a con in order to be a critic? Seems both only blame the other for everything and anything. Now that is f'd up. That is also old and tired. One day, we'll have a government for the people, by the people, again. It will be void of the corporate whore dual party that has divided this nation.

No, I steer clear of the leftwing/rightwing lib vs. con playpen as much as possible; and playpen is exactly what it is, where everything is caricatured...speaking of which re: Biker

I posted 2 links @ 12:19 and 4 others @ 12:44, your reply is stamped 12:53...I must say you're quite the impressive speed reader there. ;) :rolleyes:

[biker]

It's a gift.

[LaNdReW]

Originally posted by biker
Continuing a litinous day:

Al Qaeda Handbook Rules

Rule #2-when beheading someone, have a gang of fellow terrorists standing around yelling and screaming “Allah Akbar!!” (God is great!!) It will motivate fellow Muslims to think this is an honorable deed and better yet it will motivate the liberals in the United States to immediately blame it on America.

Rule #3-When detonating a suicide bomb, get into the most crowded place you can find full of innocent people, especially women and children, so you can wreak as much havoc and destruction and kill as many innocent people as possible. It will motivate the liberals in the United States to blame it on America (Nota bene: this rule can be overdone, as Jordan has sadly shown us. We leave this to the good taste of the individual bomber/martyr.)

Biker, you got a link to these "rules"???
My email spam regarding the "Handbook"said "conservatives" can't tell the difference between Osama and Saddam.

[Stevenco]

Originally posted by biker
So--FDR carried out the PH attack with the Japanese, right? Oh yeah, Bikerama. That's just what I said. You're okay.

[avet]

How do you think all the board members who have family friends and loved ones overseas right now feel after seeing that?
I HOPE THEIR MOTAVATED.... TO END IT REAL SOON, AND BRING THEM HOME, BEFORE THEIR ....ON A TABLE. I'D FEEL A LOT SAFER WITH THEM HERE, GUARDING OUR .... "CLOSED"...... freekin boarders (if bush has one tenth the "brain" & really cared to protect "us" Americans). For the money we spent in Iraq, we could have built a "Taj Mahall" of walls, & STILL had TON'S of money left over to keep or economy strong, ....like it used to be.
'Wash Post' Op Ed: Father of Soldier Slain in Iraq Calls Death a 'Waste'
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001772674
January 02, 2006
NEW YORK In a sure to be much-debated Op Ed column in Tuesday's Washington Post, the father of a Marine killed in Iraq last August declares that this supreme sacrifice was a "waste."

Paul E. Schroeder is identified as managing director of a trade development firm in Cleveland. His son, Lance Cpl. Edward "Augie" Schroeder II, was one of 14 Marines from Ohio killed in Haditha on August 3.

Schoeder reveals that his son was killed on his fifth mission to clear Haditha. "In our last conversation," he explains, "Augie complained that the cost in lives to clear insurgents was 'less and less worth it,' because Marines have to keep coming back to clear the same places. Marine commanders in the field say the same thing. Without sufficient troops, they can't hold the towns."

Although many call his son a "hero," Schroder writes, "Two painful questions remain for all of us. Are the lives of Americans being killed in Iraq wasted? Are they dying in vain? President Bush says those who criticize staying the course are not honoring the dead. That is twisted logic: honor the fallen by killing another 2,000 troops in a broken policy?"

He concludes: "Though it hurts, I believe that his death -- and that of the other Americans who have died in Iraq -- was a waste. They were wasted in a belief that democracy would grow simply by removing a dictator -- a careless misunderstanding of what democracy requires. They were wasted by not sending enough troops to do the job needed in the resulting occupation -- a careless disregard for professional military counsel.

"But their deaths will not be in vain if Americans stop hiding behind flag-draped hero masks and stop whispering their opposition to this war. Until then, the lives of other sons, daughters, husbands, wives, fathers and mothers may be wasted as well.

"This is very painful to acknowledge, and I have to live with it. So does President Bush."

[biker]

Originally posted by LaNdReW
Biker, you got a link to these "rules"???
My email spam regarding the "Handbook"said "conservatives" can't tell the difference between Osama and Saddam.

No link. Just something I saw on the internet a couple of months ago.

Seems accurate.

[steven]

Originally posted by avet
"But their deaths will not be in vain if Americans stop hiding behind flag-draped hero masks and stop whispering their opposition to this war. Until then, the lives of other sons, daughters, husbands, wives, fathers and mothers may be wasted as well.

"This is very painful to acknowledge, and I have to live with it. So does President Bush."

I really was going to leave this alone but I am so disgusted right now its just impossible for me to do so. Either:
A. your not reading what I am writing, or
B. you honestly believe its ok to exploit other peoples pain to prove your point.

The Mr. Schroeder in the reprint you have provided is certainly entitled to his opinion, in fact I agree with him whole heartedly. If he wishes to splash pictures of his son bleeding to death on an operating table on the internet for the whole world to gawk at, that certainly is his prerogative.

What is not his or anyone else's prerogative is to use pictures of others in compromised positions without their consent for that same purpose. That notion seems to just pass some of you by.

I asked before, and all of you that think its A OK to do what you want with that soldiers picture where mute in response. Would it be ok to post a rape victim on a hospital table bleeding with her legs spread wide and crying while she gets hiv tested on the net to show the horror of rape?

Better yet, lets see you offer up pictures of your family or loved ones in similar situations. Put up or shut up as the saying goes. You want to show pictures of your kid, your husband, your nephew, like that? Fine by me. I wont say a word. But that still wouldn't give you the right to use other peoples pain to further your agenda or buttress your arguments.

[avet]

Please explain to me, what exactly do you think my agenda is? After all I've ever said. Am I out to disgrace that person in the picture? Am I trying to shame his intergrity? What is my point?

Again,....that picture, with the face blocked over, designates NO particular person or soldier. There is NO reference to any names, or name tags showing.

What is being "exploited"? An unnamed soldier? If their was ANY reference to a specific person, I would be standing right behind you, to say..... "NO FREEKIN WAY" !!

Your comparison to a "rape" victim is way, way, out there. Rape is a very, very personal, "private" affair - WAR is ...NOT!
________________________________________________

IRAQ'S UNSEEN WAR
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,371411,00.html

The Photos Washington Doesn't Want You To See

In the case of Vietnam, battlefield images played an important role in turning the tide of public opinion. And in Iraq, a war whose official justification has turned out to be false, and which a majority of the American people now believe to have been a mistake, the administration would prefer that these grim images never be seen.

It is because we believe that the American people are not getting a look at the reality of the Iraq war, for Americans and Iraqis alike, that we decided to run this photo gallery. It is no secret that Salon has published many more pieces questioning and challenging the Iraq war than supporting it. But that is not why we think it is important that these images be seen. We would have run them even if we supported the war. The reason is simple: The truth should be told. People should know the truth about war. Before a nation decides to go to war, it should know what its consequences are.

There is no way for any journalist, whether reporter or photographer, to capture the multifaceted reality of Iraq. But all of the journalists I have spoken to who have worked in Iraq say that the blandly optimistic pronouncements made by the Bush administration about the situation in Iraq are completely false. A picture of a dead child only represents a fragment of the truth about Iraq -- but it is one that we do not have the right to ignore. We believe we have an ethical responsibility to those who have been killed or wounded, whether Iraqis, Americans or those of other nationalities, not to simply pretend that their fate never happened. To face the bitter truth of war is painful. But it is better than hiding one's eyes.
_________________________________________________

"When do we shield people from the truth? If there is any one consensus on this subject it is that we as journalists need to be sensitive to the emotions generated by the publication of these types of images. To not treat this duty with the respect and the consideration it deserves is a sin we cannot afford to commit. War time photos or not, the analysis should not change. There should be no shame in publishing controversial photos. The risk we run when we don't have the dialogue about publishing controversial photos could result in the loss of integrity and violation of the public trust.

Sometimes long-term gain must suffer short-term criticism. When you think of the picture of the female college student crying over the body of a fellow student shot dead by the Ohio State police at Kent State do you think about the public outrage over the publication of this image or do you consider this picture as a flashpoint for the anti-war protests on college campuses in the 1970s?"
__________________________________________________

IRAQ'S UNSEEN WAR Unseen Pictures, Untold Stories: How The U.S. Press Has Sanitized The War in Iraq
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/1341241

"........the reason governments seek to censor and sanitize wartime coverage is "to prevent a public outcry against the war, an outcry that might bring down the administration."

SIDNEY SCHANBERG: Well, he said -- David is very impassioned, and he is a terrific journalist and person. He said -- he -- the way he felt when he was working in Iraq was that “if I am hurting inside, then I want you,” that means the reader, the viewer, the audience, “I want you to hurt inside. And if I am brought to tears, I want you to be brought to tears, too.” That's exactly how one feels. I mean, that's how I felt. You feel a bit like you are throwing a tantrum, like you are saying, “Pay attention! Pay attention! People are dying here!”

......secondly, the families, I think, are the least of it because in most of these photos, the face is not shown, and the name does not have to be used. It is simply a soldier. And if the name isn't used, then -- and no one can identify the soldier, so then it isn’t really a problem.

JAMES RAINEY: ....I wanted to say one other thing, too, about the casualty pictures, which is that there is a considerable difference between the casualty pictures shown of Americans and Iraqis. I think if you read some of the big papers in this country, including The L.A. Times, The New York Times, there have been quite a few photos of Iraqi casualties. And if you read closely and looked closely, there are plenty of images there for you to make up your mind about how you feel about the level of bloodshed. The interesting thing about that is some people see these photos and see reason to be opposed to the war. Some people have seen some of these photos and they see sacrifice, and American sacrifice and Iraqi sacrifice, and there was a survey done of American readers; I included this in my story, and we quote a woman in our story, who sees one of the dead G.I.s and she says, “Yes, I'm glad you ran that picture, and I'm glad you ran it because it doesn't tell me this is an unjust war. It tells me that, you know, these guys are giving their lives for freedom.”
__________________________________________________

The Invisible Wounded: Injured U.S. Soldiers Arrive Home Under Cover of Darkness
March 15th, 2005
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/15/1454212

We look at how injured soldiers evacuated to the U.S. never arrive in the light of day as well as how veterans suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome receive inadequate and ineffective psychiatric care at Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

MARK BENJAMIN:...What is interesting about this whole process is that all of the flights of wounded into the United States are scheduled to land at night. The wounded are arriving under the cover of darkness. Also, at least at the two hospitals, Walter Reed Army Medical Center and Bethesda Naval Medical Center, photographers and the press are barred from seeing, watching, or taking photos of the wounded arriving. So, if you take those two facts, the fact that the wounded are only arriving at night at Andrews Air Force Base, and you take the fact that we in the press are not allowed to see them when they go to the two main hospitals here, we have a situation where we're several years into the war now, and we've seen essentially no reporting or no images of these wounded arriving; and to give you just a idea of the scope of this situation, if you take the wounded soldiers and then you add in the number of hurt soldiers that the Pentagon doesn't generally report (in other words, soldiers that are hurt in vehicle accidents and so on) we have 25,000 soldiers who have been flown out of the battlefields, mostly from Iraq, some from Afghanistan. Most of those come back to the United States — 25,000 — and images or reporting on them arriving in the United States is almost unheard of.

And so what I found over a year -- I tracked 14 soldiers, not all of them for a year, but some of them -- what I found was that at Walter Reed there’s an interesting thing going on, and this seems to be the case at other military facilities: Soldiers from this war who suffer acute wounds, amputees, head injuries, bullet wounds, you know, people that are blown up by roadside bombs, get excellent, excellent medical care, or that's what they report to me. They get off those battlefields very, very quickly. They’re bought back to Walter Reed. You’ll see them -- you will see their good news stories on TV where reporters are allowed to see them rehabilitating there at Walter Reed. What is interesting about that is that soldiers who are hurt in their mind, soldiers who have debilitating, really scary post-traumatic stress disorder -- we’re talking about people that are acutely homicidal, acutely suicidal after what they've seen or had to do in Iraq -- their treatment, the way they describe their treatment at Walter Reed is extremely substandard. They don't get the kind of therapy they deserve. They don't get one-on-one therapy. They don't – they’re treated by not even doctors, they're medical students, and the entire time that they are at Walter Reed, the army seems to be more bent on trying to determine that their problems were not, in fact, caused by the war and that, in fact, these soldiers were just crazy of their own accord. The reason why, the soldiers say, is because if the army can make a determination that a soldier's problems are not caused by combat, then the army or the Pentagon does not have to pay, in other words have to pay medical care for those people or money to those people, remuneration to those people for the rest of their lives. In other words, it looks like it could be a money saving maneuver, sadly.

[steven]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by avet
Please explain to me, what exactly do you think my agenda is? After all I've ever said. Am I out to disgrace that person in the picture? Am I trying to shame his intergrity? What is my point?

Again,....that picture, with the face blocked over, designates NO particular person or soldier. There is NO reference to any names, or name tags showing.

What is being "exploited"? An unnamed soldier? If their was ANY reference to a specific person, I would be standing right behind you, to say..... "NO FREEKIN WAY" !!

Your comparison to a "rape" victim is way, way, out there. Rape is a very, very personal, "private" affair - WAR is ...NOT!

First he is a real person not a "freakin statistic" as you put, it now he is a nameless faceless soldier. Make up your mind.

That picture is someone. It could be someone related to someone who visits this board. It could be someone or someones relative who comes across that picture on google images three months or years from now. It could be the guy that lives next door to you. It could be my brother. You dont no who he is but his family and loved ones probably do and probably dont appreciate you using him to puff up your argument, little black band over his eyes or not.

Your comment about rape being personal and war not being personal shows your ignorance of what happens to a person after being on a battlefield. Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one, but I would suggest in your discussions you keep yours to things that are within your realm of experiance. Its pretty obvious war is not one of them.

Dignity, Class, Honor, Privacy are all words that seem to be foriegn concepts to you. Look them up and then let that poor soldier have his dignity, by showing a little class, so his family can honor him with there privacy intact.

You rambling on like this after its obvious you have offended other vetrans is the reason why biker and his gang keep winning elections. Most liberals just dont get it. Mainstream America doesnt want you to come in there living room and poop on there floor just so you can get across your point that sh*t stinks. Its offensive that you even think that way and there are far more dignified ways to carry on a discussion.

[avet]

Your comment about rape being personal and war not being personal shows your ignorance of what happens to a person after being on a battlefield.
"Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one"


but I would suggest in your discussions you keep yours to things that are within your realm of experiance. Its pretty obvious war is not one of them.
That's your opinion.
"Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one"


Dignity, Class, Honor, Privacy are all words that seem to be foriegn concepts to you.
After I show you my DD214, ....you can ... **** ** ***!!!

Mainstream America doesnt want you to come in there living room and poop on there floor just so you can get across your point that sh*t stinks. Its offensive that you even think that way and there are far more dignified ways to carry on a discussion.
Tourning your head away & keeping your eyes shut, while other people are dying, is way beyond offensive to me. Your talking about embarassment, yet people are still DYING?

"Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one"

That's why why biker and his gang keep winning elections.

[biker]

And will continue.

[DelawareDistrict]

What is not surprising is that people who support a war based on lies, deception and oil also want the reality of the situation hidden from the public.

We are in this mess of a "war" because the "facts" were not presented to Congress or the public. Hiding reality will ensure many more dead and maimed soldiers.

The pictures are not the problem, they are the result of the problem. If you can't face the result, don't support the problem.

If you want to stop the problem, start with the cause right here - 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, DC 20500. Phone Numbers Comments: 202-456-1111 Switchboard: 202-456-1414 FAX: 202-456-2461

[steven]

Maybe one of your relatives will get killed in a car crash by a drunk driver or raped in there home and someone will gleefully post the picture of their broken and bleeding body on the net point at it and say "see! see! its evil" we have to stamp it out!".

Maybe then you would understand what it feels like to be used in that manner. Untill then its pointless to continue this discussion. Dignity and respect for others just glide right past some of you it seems.

[Stevenco]

Originally posted by DelawareDistrict
deception and oil [/COLOR]

This sums it up. It's not that complicated. The longer the post, the more inaccurate it is.

The War in Iraq: Deception and Oil.

Good job spotting that Double D.

[avet]

You really want to know my ....agenda?

Almost every single day I think about it. Why did "I" live through it? Why me? Friends, who days before were total strangers, became closer than most brothers. You get to know everything about them, like their families, the car they had, their girlfriends\wives\kids, ...."everything". Then, when their killed, a piece of you dies inside, and it never goes away. These people deserved to LIVE, cause they were the "best", as far as I was concerned. They did so many things "beyond" what regular friends ever do in life. You did more than share your chow, your stories,...you shared "life" with them, and even though it was not that long of a "actual" time, it felt you knew them for eternity.

Now their gone ...."forever".

Why? Why me Lord? Why did I live through it? I have almost no family (just one sister), I have no kids!. They had family, kids,...people that could be prouder than proud about who they were, and what they became. If I could, I would have traded places with them, in a heartbeat.

Now that pride is for nothing but a ..."memory". What did they die for? A "bs" war. They gave their "lives"! What happened to nixon? He was a "criminal". They impeached him, but he still got to live out the rest of his "life", head down or not. The people I used to know had more "honor" in one single tiny cell, than people like nixon, bush had in their entire family gene pool. Yet their gone...."forever".

Then biker, who hasn't got a "freekin" clue, about anything I'm talking about, and never will, makes a big funny joke of Jane Fonda, referring to her as an ...*******??? To me, she was somebody who really, really cared to stop the bs, the countless deaths of really "good people" who made this world a better place. If it weren't for her, and people like her, HOW MANY MORE WOULD HAVE DIED?? HOW MUCH LONGER WOULD IT HAVE GONE ON? The "mistakes" that our leaders make, COST MANY, MANY, GOOD LIVES. Yet, those "mistakes" are treated like simple little board room slip ups. A mere ...."business transaction".

I could go on, as you well know, but I'm done. What I did in the service, I don't want to talk about. I will talk about, and tell anyone about the "good people", I came to know, that the world no longer has in it. They deserve more, but that's all I can do.

quote: by steven
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dignity, Class, Honor, Privacy are all words that seem to be foriegn concepts to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That really hit a nerve with me. That may be true about me, but, I take it as also referring to all those I used to know, cause I was a part of them, as they were a part of me. Comming from a supposed fellow vet, makes that statement so much more painfull. Your type of honor, of turning your head, on what is "reality", is something I cannot understand, and explains a lot of why things are like they are.

I'm done. I thought I was doing something usefull, and that was maybe why, I was allowed to be "able" to ...wonder..why?

Biker, enjoy your party power. Just try to remember, that power, someday soon, will answer to a much greater power.

It really is...."pointless", if your just going to keep your "eyes shut" to ......REALITY.

That's the real WRATH.

[steven]

Originally posted by avet
Comming from a supposed fellow vet, makes that statement so much more painfull. Your type of honor, of turning your head, on what is "reality", is something I cannot understand, and explains a lot of why things are like they are.
.

Coming from a fellow vet Im suprised you want that picture to be posted. How many people did you serve with that would want themselves seen in that condition?

IMO Its not about who is right or wrong its about respecting the privacy of others.

[avet]

Privacy. Your right, whatever you say.

Everything I have said is "pointless". I'm done.

[Stevenco]

Originally posted by avet
Privacy. Your right, whatever you say.

Everything I have said is "pointless". I'm done.

Do not quit, avet.