Resolution on immediate Iraq pull-out

[biker]

Final vote: yeas-3; naes-403

Republicans to Dems: STFU

[LHardy]

Brilliant! Shouted Levi!
As he raises his glass of Guiness.

[WestSideJohn]

Um, you do realize this was a Republican-sponsored resolution, don't you? You do realize that this resolution was not calling for what Muthra was advocating? If you do in fact realize this, then you know it's no slap for the Democrats at all. If you do not realize this, then you really need to start paying closer attention to what's going on.

Or you could just join the White House and House Republicans in questioning the courage and patriotism of a 37 year veteran of the Marine Corps.

[steven]

Yes, kinda wierd.

[atotaltotalfan2001]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
Um, you do realize this was a Republican-sponsored resolution, don't you? You do realize that this resolution was not calling for what Muthra was advocating? If you do in fact realize this, then you know it's no slap for the Democrats at all. If you do not realize this, then you really need to start paying closer attention to what's going on.

Or you could just join the White House and House Republicans in questioning the courage and patriotism of a 37 year veteran of the Marine Corps.


I suspect they have short and convenient memories, like all Bush-ites.

For instance, I'll bet they've forgotten all the times they called critics of Bush's war anti-American and unpatriotic because our kids are over there, paying for his nonsense with their lives.

Yet, I haven't read any comments from Bush-ites defending a man who risked his life for 37 years for our country.

I'd say all the vicious attacks on Muthra by the Bush Administration are highly unpatriotic, wouldn't you?

[Stevenco]

Patriotism is stupid and political boundries imaginary.

[biker]

Called your bluff is what the Repubs did.

The Dems had visions of favorable headlines for taking a bold stand, simply by "standing behind" Murtha's statement. With the added benefit that they wouldn't have to do anything concrete, just 'bask in the glow.'

How chic, how daring, how nuanced .

Too bad they didn't have the exact same resolution in the Senate: then Kerry could have voted for the resolution before he would have voted against it.

They were trapped and the Dems knew it. Started screaming about how the Repubs were "politicizing the war." No ****, Sherlock. Just what the Dems have been doing for months.

But now they were forced to stand up and be counted. It's one thing to be a spineless, opninion-poll chasing hypocrite in a press conference. It's quite another thing to actually cast your vote for or against something.

403 to 3.

Time to stop the sniping from the comfort of Washington. Let's get the job done quickly (and that means killing the insurgent, most of whom are Sunnis trying to muscle their way back into power) so our brave heroes and heroines can return to their families.

[WestSideJohn]

When reading posts on a topic such as this, it's usually obvious which posters do more than merely skim the headlines. Unfortunately, Biker is not one of those posters.

Again, the Republican sponsored resolution was <i>not at all</i> what Muthra was calling for. This vote wasn't "calling the Democrats' bluff"- it was a waste of time, pure and simple, meant to divert attention from the issue at hand and provide an opportunity for Republicans to question the courage and patriotism of a 37 year veteran of the Marine Corps and the first Vietnam veteran in Congress.

Not suprisingly, this made Biker and LHardy very happy.

[atotaltotalfan2001]

Originally posted by biker
Called your bluff is what the Repubs did.

The Dems had visions of favorable headlines for taking a bold stand, simply by "standing behind" Murtha's statement. With the added benefit that they wouldn't have to do anything concrete, just 'bask in the glow.'

How chic, how daring, how nuanced .

Too bad they didn't have the exact same resolution in the Senate: then Kerry could have voted for the resolution before he would have voted against it.

They were trapped and the Dems knew it. Started screaming about how the Repubs were "politicizing the war." No ****, Sherlock. Just what the Dems have been doing for months.

But now they were forced to stand up and be counted. It's one thing to be a spineless, opninion-poll chasing hypocrite in a press conference. It's quite another thing to actually cast your vote for or against something.

403 to 3.

Time to stop the sniping from the comfort of Washington. Let's get the job done quickly (and that means killing the insurgent, most of whom are Sunnis trying to muscle their way back into power) so our brave heroes and heroines can return to their families.


Rider, since you've clearly forgotten how to read, I'm posting this just for you and others of you're ilk:


From The News:


Murtha, a 73-year-old Marine veteran decorated for combat service in Vietnam, issued his call for a troop withdrawal at a news conference on Thursday. In little more than 24 hours, Hastert and Republicans decided to put the question to the House.

Democrats said it was a political stunt and quickly decided to vote against it in an attempt to drain it of significance.

"A disgrace," declared House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. "The rankest of politics and the absence of any sense of shame," added Rep. Steny Hoyer of Maryland, the No. 2 House Democrat.

Republicans hoped to place Democrats in an unappealing position - either supporting a withdrawal that critics said would be precipitous or opposing it and angering voters who want an end to the conflict. They also hoped the vote could restore GOP momentum on an issue - the war - that has seen plummeting public support in recent weeks.

Democrats claimed Republicans were changing the meaning of Murtha's withdrawal proposal. He has said a smooth withdrawal would take six months.

At one point in the emotional debate, Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.

"He asked me to send Congress a message - stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message - that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said. Murtha is a 37-year Marine veteran.

Democrats booed and shouted her down - causing the House to come to a standstill.

Rep. Harold Ford, D-Tenn., charged across the chamber's center aisle screaming that Republicans were making uncalled-for personal attacks. "You guys are pathetic! Pathetic!" yelled Rep. Marty Meehan, D-Mass.

Democrats gave Murtha a standing ovation as he entered the chamber and took his customary corner seat.

The fireworks, as lawmakers rushed toward a two-week Thanksgiving break, came just days after the GOP-controlled Senate defeated a Democratic push for Bush to lay out a timetable for withdrawal. Murtha has proposed his own resolution that would force the president to withdraw the nearly 160,000 troops in Iraq "at the earliest practicable date." It would establish a quick-reaction force and a nearby presence of Marines in the region. The Republican alternative simply said: "It is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately."

Hope that isn't too much for you to comprehend....

[atotaltotalfan2001]

Rider and company:

I realize what I previuosly posted is probably too long and involved to keep your attention -- so let me cut to the chase:


Murtha has proposed his own resolution that would force the president to withdraw the nearly 160,000 troops in Iraq "at the earliest practicable date."

Doesn't sound anything like the resolution the GOP floated just for the fun of destroying the reputation of a true patriot in a desperate attempt to regain whatever public support the Bush Administration once had for the war.

It's so sad the way you guys treat our veterans -- to say nothing of the public trust. Really unAmerican.

[biker]

I had someone read your post to me.

A couple of times, so's I could understand it.

We respect all veterans, including those who have become slightly unhinged due to a lengthy sentence in Washington and association with a really bad sort of people.

Dems have been launching scurrilous attacks on the Prez for weeks. He started fighting back and the hyenas start yelping that he's policiticizing the war. Wowee, talk about the kettle calling the pot black!

Then you pull the "pull out immediately" stunt. And got burned right away. Tried to deflect the attention from "put up or shutup" to "stop attacking this man".

I didn't hear any attacks on this man but a lot on the idea of an immediate pullout.

You pull shrivel up when it's time to stand up and be counted, but I'm not surprised.

Even experienced hypocrites back down when there might be real consequences.

[DelawareDistrict]

Originally posted by biker


Too bad they didn't have the exact same resolution in the Senate: then Kerry could have voted for the resolution before he would have voted against it.



Its too bad our President doesn't change his mind once in a while when presented with FACTS . Then we wouldn't be in this mess now. But wait, this was never about facts as far as Bush is concerned. All he wanted was a politically correct reason to justify an invasion of Iraq. He knew what he wanted to do all along, he just wasn't sure how to get there. Sadly, he chose the wrong path to accomplish his objectives and now he is and will continure to pay the price for his deceitful acts. His actions border on treason.

[biker]

Originally posted by DelawareDistrict
Its too bad our President doesn't change his mind once in a while when presented with FACTS . Then we wouldn't be in this mess now. But wait, this was never about facts as far as Bush is concerned. All he wanted was a politically correct reason to justify an invasion of Iraq. He knew what he wanted to do all along, he just wasn't sure how to get there. Sadly, he chose the wrong path to accomplish his objectives and now he is and will continure to pay the price for his deceitful acts. His actions border on treason.

No they don't. But Reid's certainly do.

[therising]

Originally posted by biker
Final vote: yeas-3; naes-403

Republicans to Dems: STFU

To call this a "dem defeat" when only 3 voted for it is beyond comprehension. How does that make any sense???

The resolution was an idiotic waste of everyone's time.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by biker
Then you pull the "pull out immediately" stunt. You're a liar. Muthra did NOT say "pull out right away." It was Hunter, a Republican, who proposed pulling out immediately, and this proposal was roundly defeated.


Originally posted by biker
We respect all veteransAgain, you're a liar. Unless you consider calling a 37 year veteran of the Marine Corps and the first Vietnam veteran in Congress a coward to be "respecting all veterans" - which, given your thought process, maybe you do.

Your continuing portrayal of this as a Democratic proposal proves that you're either mis-informed or deliberately trying to mislead. Business as usual from Biker.

[biker]

Originally posted by therising
To call this a "dem defeat" when only 3 voted for it is beyond comprehension. How does that make any sense???

The resolution was an idiotic waste of everyone's time.

Absolutely not a waste of time.

Stopped these princes of the press conference from hopping on the "let's get out of there now" bandwagon without actually doing something of substance.

Those three who voted for it, I think they can hold all the press conferences they want. They put their money where their mouths are.

The vote should shut up even experienced hypocrites like Kerry and Reid.

No room for nuance on this vote: up or down. Yea or nay.

[therising]

Originally posted by biker
Republicans to Dems: STFU

How do you explain this remark, when the Dems overwhelmingly voted against it??

[WestSideJohn]

It would only be a blow to Democrats if the resolution actually represented what Muthra was calling for. The Republican-sponsored resolution did <i>not</i> represent what Muthra was calling for at all.

Muthra has been a solid supporter of the military, both through his nearly four decades of service and, later, his votes in the House of Representatives. He's not calling for immediate withdrawal. He's smart enough to know that's simply not an option.

The funny thing is that though Biker and LHardy cheer, this vote will do more long-term damage to Republicans in the House than Democrats, for several reasons. First, the Republican implication that Muthra is a coward is clearly false (gee, there's a shock... a Republican trying to sell something to the American people that is ridiculous), and it smacks of desperation. The base - Biker and LHardy - cheer. But moderates, independents and Democrats avert our gazes, embarrassed for you.

The second is that the House Republicans have tied their fortunes to the popularity of the Iraq war (falling weekly) and President Bush (ditto). Ask Mr. Kilgore how that turns out these days.

It's still a long way to the 2006 elections, and a lot can happen. But if the current trends continue, even at a much slower pace, history will view this vote as a huge mistake. So go ahead and cheer, Biker and LHardy. I'm cheering too.

[biker]

Originally posted by therising
How do you explain this remark, when the Dems overwhelmingly voted against it??

Read the previous posts.

[atotaltotalfan2001]

Originally posted by biker
[B]I had someone read your post to me.

A couple of times, so's I could understand it.

Good job!


I didn't hear any attacks on this man but a lot on the idea of an immediate pullout.

Then you weren't listening. Cheney said Murtha lacked "backbone" and Scott McClellan compared him to Michael Moore. That's just for starters. I could relay a lot more of the GOP's attempt at character assassination, but I'm sure you get the point.


In any case, the White House figured out the public wasn't buying its attempts to "swift boat" Murtha. By Sunday, Cheney et al softened up. In fact, Rumsfeld actually called Murtha a fine man and -- gasp! -- said it was not unpatriotic to question Iraq policy.

Seems like this is the complete opposite of what the Bush White House has been saying since the beginning -- but who am I to question the wisdom of the Bush Administration? ;)

[LHardy]

Rep. John Murtha Urged Somalia Pullout in '93

After terrorists attacked U.S. troops in Mogadishu, Somalia 12 years ago, anti-Iraq war Democrat, Rep. John Murtha urged then-President Clinton to begin a complete pullout of U.S. troops from the region.

Clinton took the advice and ordered the withdrawal - a decision that Osama bin Laden would later credit with emboldening his terrorist fighters and encouraging him to mount further attacks against the U.S.

"Our welcome has been worn out," Rep Murtha told NBC's "Today" show in Sept. 1993, a month after 4 U.S. Military Police had been killed in Somalia by a remote-detonated land mine.

The Pennsylvania Democrat announced that President Clinton had been "listening to our suggestions. And I think you'll see him move those troops out very quickly."

Two weeks later, after 18 U.S. Rangers were killed in the battle of Mogadishu, Murtha visited U.S. forces in Somalia.
Upon his return he proclaimed to the world that the Mogadishu defeat had a devastating impact on the Rangers' morale.

"They're subdued compared to normal morale of elite forces," Murtha said. "Obviously, it was a very difficult battle. A lot of Somalis were killed, but it was a brutal battle."

Murtha said the U.S. had to no choice but to pull out now, explaining, "There's no military solution. Some of them will tell you [that] to get [warlord Mohamed Farrah] Aidid is the solution. I don't agree with that."

The comments were eerily similar to Murtha's assessment of U.S involvement in Iraq last week, when he declared, "the U.S. cannot accomplish anything further militarily. It is time to bring [the troops] home."

Taking Murtha's advice back then, however, turned out to have deadly consequences for U.S. security.

In a 1998 interview with ABC's John Miller, Osama bin Laden said that America's withdrawal from Somalia had emboldened his burgeoning al Qaida force and encouraged him to plan new attacks.
"Our people realize[d] more than before that the American soldier is a paper tiger that run[s] in defeat after a few blows," the terror chief recalled. "America forgot all about the hoopla and media propaganda and left dragging their corpses and their shameful defeat."

Yep this guy has a great history of success.

[biker]

Thanks, LHardy. It was getting kind of lonely at my post.

They even threatened to send that Muthra after me.

Now, how can they can get a giant moth from Tokyo to Buffalo is beyond me, but you can't be too careful.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by biker
Thanks, LHardy. It was getting kind of lonely at my post.That's because most people are disgusted by your attempt to denigrate a 37 year veteran of the Marine Corps, a man who probably has more courage than you or I or anyone else on this message board. Yes, we're disgusted, but certainly not surprised.... it's just business as usual from Biker and LHardy.

[LHardy]

From the floor of the US Congress:

Rep. Jean Schmidt (R-Ohio) was recognized at 5:20 p.m.
She told colleagues that "a few minutes ago I received a call from Colonel Danny Bubp," an Ohio legislator and Marine Corps Reserve officer. "He asked me to send Congress a message: Stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message: that cowards cut and run, Marines never do."

Looks to me as if the real Marines are up to the task more then a 37 year "Just give me my pension" marine.

[DelawareDistrict]

Dr. Evil (Cheney) seems to have a different opinion of late . . .

He used the first part of his speech -- televised live by CNN and other news networks -- to praise U.S. Rep. John Murtha, "my friend and former colleague." The 17-term Pennsylvania Democrat made news last week when he called for U.S. forces to leave Iraq over a six-month period.

"I disagree with Jack and believe his proposal would not serve the best interest of this nation. But he's a good man, a Marine, a patriot, and he's taking a clear stand in an entirely legitimate discussion," Cheney said.

[biker]

Originally posted by LHardy
From the floor of the US Congress:

Rep. Jean Schmidt (R-Ohio) was recognized at 5:20 p.m.
She told colleagues that "a few minutes ago I received a call from Colonel Danny Bubp," an Ohio legislator and Marine Corps Reserve officer. "He asked me to send Congress a message: Stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message: that cowards cut and run, Marines never do."

Looks to me as if the real Marines are up to the task more then a 37 year "Just give me my pension" marine.

I disagree.

Over the weekend, I watched that Schmidt clip again and again. I think you and almost all the commentators missed the point.

This Colonel Bupp was not calling Murtha names or disparaging his character. He was reaching out to a fellow Marine, saying "Don't join this crowd. Remember who you are. Remember who we are."

I know some of the commentators didn't get it, as they referred to Murtha as an "ex" or "former" Marine. As any Marine can tell you, there is no such thing as an "ex" Marine.

[DelawareDistrict]

Schmidt’s attacks on the integrity of one Marine after another for political gain is a pattern that raises serious questions about the priorities and values of Republican leaders.

Whether the target has been John McCain or John Kerry, smearing veterans is one of the most disgusting pages from the playbook of the extremist fringe of the Republican Party. These shameless operatives and their desperate bosses value their political position over the service of our veterans.

[biker]

Delaware:

I think the screaming about "smear" was a Democratic debating ploy to refocus attention from the real issue.

Like Reid complaining about Bush "politicizing" the war when Bush finally/belatedly went on the attack against the week after week of relentess Democratic attacks. No one----not even Fox News---pointed out the hypocrisy of Reid complaining about someone else politicizing the war.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by LHardy
...a 37 year "Just give me my pension" marine.Wow. And not in the good way.

[LHardy]

This has to make the Dems heads spin.

Bill Clinton Waffles On Iraq: 'It Could Still Work'

Having declared last Wednesday that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was a "big mistake," former President Bill Clinton now thinks the Bush Administration policy may succeed.

Speaking to Arab students in Dubai, the capital of United Arab Emirates, Clinton said "Saddam is gone. It's a good thing, but I don't agree with what was done."

Last night however, he told an audience of 700 in Valhalla, New York that the recent vote on an Iraqi constitution went well, and the next test will be whether the once-dominant Sunni Arabs participate in the Dec. 15 elections, according to Westchester County's Journal News.

If they do, he said , "this enterprise could still work," and "we could look at having a fairly substantial drawdown (of troops) next year."

Taking a stance at odds with Democrat Representative John Murtha (D-Pa) and some of his fellow Democrats calling for immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq, Clinton warned, "Sunni Iraq would become the very terrorist hotbed they were accused of being before."
The former President also differed from those Democrats who charge that President Bush lied us into a war, saying he had personally never seen any intelligence linking Iraq to al-Qaida: "No one I knew believed that was the case."

That however doesn't mean President Bush, a Republican, lied or deliberately misled the country about the reasons for going to war, Clinton said, adding that President Bush probably believed the information he was relying on was right.

[DelawareDistrict]

Originally posted by LHardy


That however doesn't mean President Bush, a Republican, lied or deliberately misled the country about the reasons for going to war, Clinton said, adding that President Bush probably believed the information he was relying on was right.

I wouldn't exactly call that a ringing endorsement from Clinton. Who, btw is trying to play both sides in an effort to boost Hillary's chances in 2008.

[LHardy]

posted by DelawareDistrict:

I wouldn't exactly call that a ringing endorsement from Clinton. Who, btw is trying to play both sides in an effort to boost Hillary's chances in 2008.

Your right!
The Clintons can't be trusted.

[steven]

Originally posted by DelawareDistrict
Schmidt’s attacks on the integrity of one Marine after another for political gain is a pattern that raises serious questions about the priorities and values of Republican leaders.

Whether the target has been John McCain or John Kerry, smearing veterans is one of the most disgusting pages from the playbook of the extremist fringe of the Republican Party. These shameless operatives and their desperate bosses value their political position over the service of our veterans.

Its scary isnt it? Just 10 yrs ago the republican party was the one we (as in vetrans and service mebers) looked to for support.

Now they are led by a guy that was awol when a war was going on and they are finding new and exciting ways to cut our benifits, while making sure the purple fingered people of Iraq have free health care and all the bennys they are taking from us.

Meanwhile they openly disparge bonafide war heros like Mccain Kerry and Murtha whilst eagerly sending more and more of our boys and girls into harms way.

[DelawareDistrict]

Originally posted by LHardy
Your right!
The Clintons can't be trusted.

I wouldn't limit that thought to just the Clintons, it applies to most politicians. They are subservient to the special interests and their own self-interest.

[Riven37]

This all brings me back nearly 40 years ago when our government ran away from its duty to our troops. Here we go again, run USA run away like you did in Vietnam....I say, stand and fight because this War will never go away they will come to america once you leave Iraq, America will brun with bombings, killings, and massive deaths mark my words.:mad:

[DelawareDistrict]

Perhaps leaving is Iraq now is wrong but a lot of knowledgable people think we should get out now. . .

But much of America's foreign-policy establishment -- including many national-security hard-liners and ultraconservatives -- says the Bush administration has the equation backward: The presence of American troops is increasing, rather than averting, the danger in Iraq. Gen. William Odom, director of the National Security Agency under President Ronald Reagan and now a senior fellow with the far-right Hudson Institute, is circulating a paper titled "What's Wrong With Cutting and Running?" Point by point, Odom demolishes objections to a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq. "There is no question the insurgents and other anti-American parties will take over the government once we leave," he writes. "But that will happen no matter how long we stay."

The longer the U.S. remains in Iraq, Odom argues, the more Iraq will become a haven for radical-Islamic terrorism -- and the more Iran will exercise influence over the fundamentalist Shiite regime that Washington is propping up in Baghdad. Standing outside the U.S. Capitol, Odom tells me that the administration should move swiftly to withdraw. If ordered to do so by the White House, he says, the Pentagon could provide a blueprint for a feasible exit plan "in two or three weeks."

To those who argue that Iraq would be plunged into deeper chaos and even full-scale civil war if the U.S. leaves, Brzezinski says that the Shiites, who control Iraq's southern region, and the Kurds, who govern the mountainous north, would be able to defend themselves without U.S. troops. "They would not necessarily be taken over by this Al Qaeda threat that the president so much pumps up," he says. In fact, the main force of the Iraqi resistance fighting the United States is drawn not from Al Qaeda but from the former Iraqi army and Republican Guard, which dissolved after the war. Many insurgents are also what Iraq experts call POIs, or "pissed-off Iraqis" -- mostly Sunni Arabs who hate the idea that Iraq is occupied by U.S. troops.

"The reality is, you've got to talk," says retired Gen. Joseph Hoar, chief of the U.S. Central Command during the first Bush administration. "But this administration is so ****ing stupid. They've pissed in the soup." Hoar believes that Jordan's King Abdullah could play a role as intermediary among the United States, the Iraqi interim government and the resistance. Amman, which has already served as a neutral staging ground for talks between the Iraqi opposition and U.S. officials, could host a regional peace conference to end the war in Iraq. The Russian government has been calling for such a conference for more than a year. "We have favored the idea of bringing in the Iraqi opposition -- the patriotic, nationalist opposition," says a spokesman for the Russian mission to the United Nations. "We are not talking about the jihadists, but the legitimate nationalist forces."

Wesley Clark, a retired general who served as supreme allied commander in Europe, blasts the White House for putting the burden of the crisis in Iraq on the armed forces. "Why are you putting all this on the military?" he asks. "You and your neocons, you and Dick Cheney, you got us into this. You've got to think about diplomacy."

The whole store is here http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/8799011?pageid=rs.Politics&pageregion=single1

[biker]

"And now for something completely different"

Dems wanting to cut and run.

Too bad they don't have a really star hypocrite like they did in 1969. When LBJ's former Secy of Defense Clark Clifford testified against the Vietnam War.

You might remember Clifford in his best acting role, that of a doddering befuddled old man when he was on trial for securities fraud.

He was apparently very convincing in both roles.

[WestSideJohn]

"And now for something completely different"

Biker completely missing the point.
LHardy smearing a 37 year veteran of the Marine Corps

Iraq has been a disaster from day one. We entered on false pretenses, and now, two years later, after spending hundreds of billions of dollars and losing thousands of our people (and injuring tens of thousands more) things are worse than ever and not likely to get better soon. Now, some people hate to say I told you so. Not me... I love it. Months before we ever invaded Iraq I was saying:

1. There's no proof Saddam has WMDs
2. Even if he does, they are not an "iminent threat" to the USA
3. War in Iraq will create a whole new generation of terrorists
4. War in Iraq will damage our international standing severely
5. Keeping the peace and rebuilding Iraq won't be a "cakewalk"

Well what do you know... I was right about all five of these points, and the fools who bought into the administration's ridiculous claims of that "smoking gun" "iminent threat" were wrong. That's Biker (wrong!) and Buffknut (wrong!) and LHardy (wrong!). And, worse, they continue to be wrong. As the saying goes, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Hear that clicking noise? That's LHardy cutting and pasting the list of people who said Saddam had WMDs in 1998. Again. The funny thing is, he never seems to remember to include the quotes from people like Colin Powell or George H.W. Bush saying war in Iraq would be unwinnable.

See, the problem is that now, even after being so stupendously wrong on Iraq, folks like LHardy and Biker and Buffknut still think their opinion matters. Three years ago, they failed America and our troops. Three years ago, Biker and Buffknut and LHardy couldn't be bothered to look at the situation critically and examine the information. It was easier for them to simply accept at face value what was fed to them by the administration, regardless of how the facts simply didn't add up. For Biker, Buffknut and LHardy, it was more important to stick it to the Libs than to actually do the right thing.

LHardy, you were wrong. You failed us.
Biker, you were wrong. You failed us.
Buffknut, you were wrong. You failed us.

And now, years later, after abdicating their responsibility and duty as American citizens, they denigrate a man who served our nation honorably in the military for 37 years, and in Congress for 30 more. Calling him a coward. Absolutely unreal. I'd say that takes nerve except you know what? It doesn't take any nerve at all to sit at a computer and insult a decorated veteran.

I'm sure you're all ready with a nasty reply - I wouldn't expect anything else from the likes of you. But perhaps, even for half a second, you'll think about something for the first time in your life. I wouldn't bet money on it, though.

[Stevenco]

I mean when a guy promises he's going to "pull out" before it's too late, can you really believe him?:)

[atotaltotalfan2001]

Originally posted by biker
"And now for something completely different"

Dems wanting to cut and run.

Too bad they don't have a really star hypocrite like they did in 1969. When LBJ's former Secy of Defense Clark Clifford testified against the Vietnam War.

You might remember Clifford in his best acting role, that of a doddering befuddled old man when he was on trial for securities fraud.

He was apparently very convincing in both roles.

Like I've said many a time -- enlist! You believe so strongly in a war that has cost more than 2000 American lives so far -- for reasons now even the president cannot decide upon.


You're more than glad to thrash anyone who speaks against the war, terming then as traitorsl

So -- prove yourself a patriot (by your definition) and go to war. It seems to be your answer to everthing.

Bye bye now. Write, once you get settled.

[WestSideJohn]

Bye bye now. Write, once you get settled.Biker has me on ignore, but perhaps you could remind him to bring along some money for his body armor.

[Stevenco]

Original thought is as possible now as it was thousands of years ago.

[WestSideJohn]

Too bad more people don't give it a try.

[WestSideJohn]

Oh, and here's one for LHardy, you know, the guy who posted Murtha's call for withdrawal from Somalia back in the early 1990s. They're excerpts from the Statement of Republican Policy on U.S. Armed Forces in Somalia, which was adopted on April 1, 1993.


Excerpt 1: U.S. military forces in Somalia have fulfilled the mission given them by President Bush. <b>Republicans</b> therefore call on President Clinton to bring our troops home.
Excerpt 2: The United States is the world's only superpower, but this does not mean we are omnipotent, nor that our obligations are universal.<b> Republicans</b> believe that President Bush's commitment to pull our forces out of Somalia should be fulfilled. So, here's a question for you, LHardy: why is it so bad that Murtha called for withdrawal from Somalia when the Republicans were calling for the very same thing? Can't wait to hear your reply.

[LHardy]

John if your going to cut and paste. Post the entire article so the entire truth be known you liar.
Here is the rest of what you failed to post. Trying eagerly to make a point. Unfortunately for you they are not the same circumstances.
WestSideJohn-You have failed us!


The United States has a proud tradition of providing international humanitarian assistance to those truly in need. Somalia is a case in point. In the early 1980's, and again in the early 1990s, the American people and the U.S. Government responded to famine in Somalia by bringing in massive quantities of food and medical assistance.

In the last several months, as anarchy gripped that country and famine again loomed on the horizon, President Bush sent U.S. Armed Forces to Somalia to restore order and permit food to reach the people. He made a commitment to withdraw our troops when the mission was completed and return the operation to the U.N. This process was begun before he left office. The mission has been accomplished, but our troops remain, and it appears President Clinton has no intention of bringing them home. Instead, U.N. bureaucrats who want to keep the United States in Somalia will decide their fate.

Republicans commend our Armed Forces for restoring order to Somalia and for helping to alleviate human suffering in that country. However, we have several deep concerns. Without appropriate congressional consultation, President Clinton has committed thousands of U.S. military personnel to a U.N. peacekeeping operation commanded by a foreign national for an indefinite period of time. Our men and women in uniform will provide both the fighting teeth and the logistical tail for this open-ended operation.

Republicans believe U.S. Armed Forces should always remain under U.S. command. They should not be loaned to international organizations to conduct operations with ambiguously defined objectives.

[WestSideJohn]

That in no way, shape or form alters the fact that Congressional Republicans were calling for Bill Clinton to withdraw US troops from Somalia. Murtha and the Republicans had the same position on this issue, expressed, in both cases, in very clear language with little room for ambiguity.

<b>So once again I'll ask... why was it bad that Murtha called for withdrawal from Somalia in 1993 but not when the Republicans did the very same thing? Why was Murtha's call for withdrawal a factor in the rise of Bin Laden but not the Congressional Republicans' call for withdrawal?</b>

For the record, I believe that both Murtha and the Congressional Republicans were correct in calling for troop withdrawal from Somalia.

[LHardy]

Murtha and the Republicans had the same position on this issue, expressed, in both cases, in very clear language with little room for ambiguity.

No John there are differances you chose not to see them.
John you are hopeless. You are someone who clearly can not have passed reading comprehension. After three pages of dialog and debate; postings of the exact written words from both parties in concern. You still have failed to see the differances in opinions and reasons between the Republicans on Iraq and Somalia, versus Murtha. The only word you chose to see is the word pull-out.
With that in mind, there is no sence is going any further with you on this subject. For it is far to complex for your level of understanding. Breath and time are too valuable to waste when a mind has reached its capacity of understanding and can not be taught anymore.
Good luck to you in your future.
I would reccomend a remedial teacher in english comprehension.

[WestSideJohn]

LOL - looks like I'm not going to get an answer any time soon from LHardy as to why it was bad for Murtha to call for withdrawal from Somalia in 1993 but not bad for Congressional Republicans to call for withdrawal from Somalia in 1993.

That silence you hear is me not being surprised.