lancaster skatepark

[elvenson]

some of you may have seen my petition durring the summer about getting a free town skatepark for the local kids... well, i have about 500 signatures on it and was wondering what all of you think of the idea. Most people tell me its a great idea, but i consider all the people on this site to be a bit more politically informed and to have interest in such topics so i would love your opinions.

also, i have a site in the early stages of creation that is just for the skate boarders of lancaster and for updates on the status of my mission for a park.

http://www.geocities.com/skatecaster

[WNYresident]

Here's what i would do. Let the town donate a part of a park for a skate park and have the 500 people who would like one contribute to build one.

Also have a group which would raise money to cover the insurance for a skate part. Bones break easily and the town doens't need a lawsuit.

if 500 people each kicked in $50 bucks that would be $25,000 which should get them started.

[elvenson]

as for the space, thats what i intended. I was thinking about asking for either a piece of keysa park by the ball field or perhaps some of that enormous amount of land that goes unused behind lancaster high school.

Funding is something that i really hope the town will chip in for, but if they make me come up with it on my own i have already been asked by some buisness owners and managers if thier companies can contribute. This i may add was thier doing. I have not asked anyone for a dime so far, they came to me after seeing the petition. There are also many organizations out there that are in place specifically for helping grass root efforts like this to fund skate parks and other youth centered activity centers. One of which is the Tony Hawk Foundation. Also, the YMCA has been funding these parks for well over 10 years across the country, we have an office of the Y on main street by Central and Broadway. I would seek thier envolvment as well as from the Boys and Girls Clubs of Depew and Lancaster and the Lancaster Youth Bureau.

I'm prepared to fight for this thing and i hope to gain the support of the masses. The only thing im worried about is a full rejection by the board. Even the insurance is no problem. Maintnance is easy to deal with as well. If i can get them to build a good park and not just some thrown together wooden thing in a parking lot, then the long term cost will be kept low enough to make this plan a real possibility.

[Marc]

Also have a group which would raise money to cover the insurance for a skate part. Bones break easily and the town doens't need a lawsuit.


This will be the town's number one concern. Grand Island had a small public skatepark that they got rid of because of the cost of insurance.

Perhaps you could build a non profit youth center instead of a true public park.

[yaksplat]

Towns should not be adding a liability like that. It's an all around bad idea. As soon as towns opened skateparks, it put the privately owned ones out of business. Why pay to enter when a town can foot the liability bill?

It eliminated taxbase and increased liability....not good.

[elvenson]

from what i have learned so far, there seem to be plenty of provisions already n place that cover the insurance problem very effectively. The cost of a skateparks insurance will be no higher than that of a swimming pool or athletic field. This ofcourse is assuming you pay for insurance.... bringing me to the next interesting fact, insurance for a facility of this type, while not operated by a private sector, is 100% non required. The same insurance that covers the town for a person falling on thier face while crossing a street or running on a sidewalk is the one that we need..... NOTHING!!!

There are laws and such that protect against certain kinds of liability. One of those kinds is the participation in what is known by the federal government as "voluntary high risk activities". It has been declared years ago that skateboarding, aggressive in line, BMX and many other such activities fall into this category. What the rules say basically is that you know what you are doing and have accepted all risk in doing so, thus the only person at fault if harm should come is you, yourself. the only way to go after someone since that was decided in washington would be if they either directly caused you to have an accident resulting in injury. For instance: your skateing along and some guy throws a brick in front of your wheels, you fall and break an arm. That is pretty much what your allowed to sue over. The only other way is if the park was "for profit". Thats only because it would then have to follow buisness procedures (which includes need for insurance), instead of just being considered a part of the landscape no more than an ordinary park. Also, through creative naming, you can also build something like a concrete park, call it a parking lot, and actually allow kids to skate there for free. By doing that, your saying that all it is is a concrete made to look diferent and kids happen to skate on it. No park, no need for insurance.

There are far too many ways to get around insurance issues to list here, but know this: If a town says no because they dont want to pay insurance, all they are actually saying is "No, we dont want to. Go away."

[elvenson]

yaksplat, I understand your point on this. Yes it hurts buisness. But at the same time, what kid can drive the 15 - 20 miles AND pay $10 to ride some park everyday. I know none. Thats why they skate in the streets and parking lots. They are being threatened with arrest in lancater and the buisnesses dont like them hanging around in thier lots. Thats why we need a park for them.

Goals simple: let every kid afford it, Keep the kids off the streets, keep it all legal, Let them do what they love

Im actually very happy that you replied as being against this. I want all peoples opinions, not just those who agree with me.

[therising]

elevenson, here's a little story for you:

When I was a kid, one of my friend's granfather died. He had worked for the railroad and lived in a railroad-owned house for, literally, about $10/month (this is over 25 years ago).

Anyway, when the old man died, my friend's parents kept leasing the house, basically just for storage. We used it as a clubhouse, as well.

We were all into skateboards at the time, and a few of the more industrious kids got the idea to build a skateboard ramp on the property. There was an abandoned REA (Railway express) terminal nearby; we would go there and basically tear the place apart, looking for 2 x 4's and plywood. I had no idea what I was doing, I just watched what the other guys were doing.

I was only peripherially involved, as I began to lose interest and wasn't all that into the skateboarding thing anyway. I mean these guys were really into it.

Anyway, as the summer passed one ramp was built. Then another. I think a total of 3 were built. Each one got bigger and bigger.

Problem was, the house was on kind of a busy street, and the 3rd ramp was higher than the fence and visible from outside.
One day we were at the ramps, and some older, teenage guys came by. They were admiring our ramps, and asked if they could join us. A few days later some more guys came.

About a week later, my friends went to the house one morning and the place was packed. Word had gotten out all over our neighborhood (as well as surrounding neighborhoods) about this awesome new skateboard park. We totally lost control of the situation, and had to wait on line to ride for our own ramps. Soon, it got to the point that the other kids (all, who were bigger and older) would give us a hard time for even being there.

Right before the summer ended, my friend's parents got a phone call from the police one night - the house was torched and burned to the ground.

Not sure what this story means, but I hadn't thought about it in years.

[yaksplat]

And the moral of the story is: Skateboarders have a tendency to spontaneously combust. So avoid skateboarders at all cost and don't let any near your house.

:D

[morphinebrian]

The argument that it will hurt business would almost be akin to advocating for privitized baseball diamonds within town parks. Why not dismantle all town park baseball diamonds so that private ones can come and do it, and charge our kids to play baseball? What would the difference be between the two?

And has anyone really thought that maybe this might be something that might increases property values. Much in the same way people move to be near a park, maybe people with kids would like to move near a skatepark so there kids would have a play they would enjoy to play.

[yaksplat]

Originally posted by morphinebrian

And has anyone really thought that maybe this might be something that might increases property values.

Translation: Lancaster can reassess your house and raise your taxes again.

[morphinebrian]

The translation is more like maybe it will add to the quality of life within Lancaster, and making it a more attractive place to live. The demand to live there goes up - supply stays the same - and thus the price of housing goes up.

I'm not saying this would neccessarly happen - I am saying it is within the realm of possiblity that for a segment of the population - mainly families with tween and teen male children - it would possibly make it a more attractive place to live. However, the reverse may also happen and people might not want to live near a skate park at all.

My main point was that building a skate-park could and should also be framed around the issue of its effect on property values.

[yaksplat]

I have no problem with a skate park being built as long as it costs the town nothing. If everything is donated and there are no insurance issues, then i'd welcome it.

I don't see that happening.

[elvenson]

Thats what im aiming for. Any money that the town throws in i would like to keep at a minimum. And even at that, anything they would give is likely to be from the recreation dept funds that already exist.

As i stated earlier, no problem with insurance. There should be no problem with the funding either. The most this is likely to cost the town is a few man hours of labor each year to sweep the park or fix the ramps. Im likely to do that myself anyway though. My friends and i are always helping maintain other free parks we travel to in canada and ohio. Its just something that we need to do.

[WNYresident]

Well for starters...

Any links to current skate parks so the readers get an idea what you are talking about?

What type of building cost goes into a skate park?

How much area is needed for decent size skate park?

I can't see much maintaince on a few concrete structures...

Who would keep up with weeding and basic neatness of the skatepark?

Would you have rules? Knee pads? Helmets? Teeth guards?

Any plans draw up we can post?

[colossus27]

Originally posted by elvenson There are far too many ways to get around insurance issues to list here, but know this: If a town says no because they dont want to pay insurance, all they are actually saying is "No, we dont want to. Go away."

In this litigation-happy society, you actually believe this? What happens after the third kid breaks an arm? After a while, negligence begins to enter into this.
My advice is to get an endowment to pay for the lawyers you're going to need.

[yaksplat]

My elementary school had the best swingset around. The swings were about 15 feet high and you could really cruise on them. Until one day a kid broke his arm. The entire playground was later torn down as part of the settlement. Now there's some plastic hunk of crap in front of the school.

[WNYresident]

And has anyone really thought that maybe this might be something that might increases property values. Much in the same way people move to be near a park, maybe people with kids would like to move near a skatepark so there kids would have a play they would enjoy to play.


NO! i want my property value to tank. The money I would save in taxes would probally offset the "false" value they want to assign to homes to guage what to bone you for taxes. I'm going to die here in my home. Why do I care what my home is worth once i'm worm food? I would rather save a couple thousand a year in property taxes instead.

[morphinebrian]

If you want your property value to tank, you are either extremely naive or extremely stupid. Property value, not what your town says your property is worth, but what your house is worth on the open market, is by far and away your greatest asset. You are crazy if you want it to go anywhere but up. And if it did tank, do you not think your municipality and town government would then just increase the property tax rate to retain the lost revenue due to the property value plummet?

How many years would it take for you to pay the increase in taxes from your home being worth $25,000 more equivelent to the $25,000 increase in value?

And don't reply someting like its not really $25,000 more, the town is just ripping me off. Imagine your home being worth $25,000 more.

If our individual community could make that happen through budgetary insignificant or budgetary mininum investments in quality of life initiatives (ie skateparks) - is it worth it? Yes! The question then goes to then - can these investments actually make your home more valuable and would a skatepark actually be budgetary insignificant or budgetary minimum...or would it be a continued high expense for insurance and personnel costs?

[colossus27]

Originally posted by morphinebrian
Property value, not what your town says your property is worth, but what your house is worth on the open market, is by far and away your greatest asset.

Hmmm....can't agree with this. Any gain is realized only if you sell your house and move to a place with even lower real estate values. Anything less is virtual. You can borrow against it, paying interest, sure, but is a larger line of credit 'your greatest asset'? I don't see it that way. All it becomes is another excuse to punish your success, which is the most predictable thing our government does to people.

You sell it, you need another place to live. Issue? Everybody else's place has also gone up in value. The only time somebody truly wins on this is when there's an inheritance involved.

With no remodeling, does your standard of living increase when your house goes up in value? Do you get more services for your higher taxes? Does your children's education instantaneously improve? Is there a benefit to paying higher homeowner's insurance?

Me, I'd say no to all of those questions.

[res4life]

I have an extensive background in the Family Entertainment center (FEC) business and have seen municipalities try to duplicate their own version for the town residents.

The facility (whether skatepark, FEC, water attraction or whatever) gets built and within a few years has so much redtape, lawsuits and political bs that it either closes or is sold off to a private company.

In the end, govt's shouldn't be in the entertainment business. Private companies do it better and cheaper.

Is an outdoor skatepark in WNY a good idea? Wouldn't an indoor facility that could be used year round work better?

Overall, I like the idea but I don't like taxpayer involvement

[WNYresident]

In the end, govt's shouldn't be in the entertainment business. Private companies do it better and cheaper.



Do you know why? There's accountability and the fact that the private person running the business can lose thier own money. When you have a group of politically connected people running something like that there's no fear of losing thier own money.

PLUS think about it. Just because someone is on a commitee put togeather by a town board that doesn't mean they are instantly qualified to make that business work. Just look at the example of solar lights in cheektowaga. Good decision made there.

Entertainment isn't something our local government employees should be involved with. I don't consider parks/playgrounds the same type of entertainment as hockey/soccer arenas. If a townboard wants to get thier friends into business disguised as a government service that service should pay for it self 100% through the fees of the few that use it.

There's NO reason to have someone who is retired funding a hockey/soccer arena so a small interest group in the town has a place to play.

[res4life]

We only have to look for examples in our own town of a private business doing a better job than a gov't one.

In the Sports realm, look at the wherle sports complex. They organize leagues for soccer, lacrosse, hockey and more. They built a huge complex that now includes indoor go-karts and a small FEC. They had zero public funding and even after the entire thing collapsed a few years ago, they still managed to rebuid, and make it all work.

Competitive business has a reason to stay lean and mean.... competition. If they don't do the best work for the right price, their competition will. What competition does gov't have to ensure things are run right?

[Superium]

Hi, sorry to bump up an old thread but I was just wondering if there was any progress with getting a skatepark built? It sure would be nice to have one built by the summer but I doubt it. Lancaster/Cheektowaga/Depew area would be a perfect place for one since I noticebly see a larger amount of skateboarders, bikers, rollerbladers in this vicinity. Personally I think the old un-used tennis courts in Losson Park would be the perfect place since it would easily be maintained, supervised and located in a safe conveinent area. Well thats my thought on it.

[WNYresident]

Are there any commercially ran skate parks?

[4248]

First young fellow (i assume) , pay no attention to the fruit behind the curtain (therising) he's a phony.
Pay attention to his non-committal
cop-outs.
Quote " I had no idea what I was doing, I just watched what the other guys were doing.
I was only peripherally involved, as I began to lose interest and wasn't all that into the skateboarding thing anyway."

But he was there and saw everything, he's still scared someone might spank him for being a bad boy.


Do yourself a major favor - get your parents and your friends parents - have a good brain storming session - get someone to start a sequence agenda plan . Include all needs, location,cost,insurance ,presentation outline and legal fee's.

Expect flak from those who are now quite. Never be disappointed that others will say no , some will appear to say yes, then punk when it gets real .


Politicians will rub your head , smile and appear caring - they will be your biggest obstacle . When it comes to Town Board meetings - behind your back they will make sure people against you attend the meetings . They will sit back and smile at you while your being shot down , then they will tell you, "The Taxpayers are against you - not us (Board Members).:) "


Once you know who is on your side , start raising money - get a parent to open a bank account - make sure an adult you trust minds the cash . Remember- it isn't your money - not even what you donate (keep good records of where it goes-every penny!).

You will need legal advise - not street lawyers - real lawyers - not the Towns Lawyers - a real Lawyer. Preferably one who doesn't have a Lancaster address.

If there are businesses or any corporate sponsors - ask them to help - you need their advise as well as their time , name and money . Last part of todays lecture (Just joking) , your not ready to go to Town Hall until a lawyer says you are...... Trust your family and others who enjoy your sport - all sports are dangerous - the town supports parks - playgrounds and Mr.Giza has in the past said he would "support a soccer field."

Don't be shy about getting as many students (all ages) and their families involved as you can . Stand out front of schools with your petitions - go door to door. But get legal advise first. If your family won't commit your just about doomed.

In closing: The older residents like me will try and raise tax and insurance issues . Our town Board has two lawyers now - one board member and the town attorney . Stay away from them until you have all your ducks in a row. ;)


PS When you present your petitions to the Town Clerks office , at least one week in advance of the meeting you and all your supporters attend - give them copies - not the originals(things get lost)- ask them to date and time stamp all sheets. Request in written form that each and every Board member get a copy and it be noted in the meetings agenda that you will be their to ask for their support. Then send a notice to the Buff.News and Lancaster Bee a full week in advance - call them and let them know what your trying to do. At least this way if it goes down - people will know you stood up!:D

[ghosthunter]

Missed the petition. Where is the park to be located? Taxpayer funded?

I think it would be great for the kids to have a safe skate park, but alot rides on where and how much.;)

[elvenson]

Well, for the record, i have stopped trying for the park quite some time ago due to MANY work/school issues that kept me buisy...

But a few things to say:

1. Im not a kid. No offense taken, but i was 22-23 when i was doing all this.

2. Im WELL aware of everything that needed to be done to get this thing built, i didnt walk into it blindly because i had no intention of letting myself lose easily on small details.

3. I was wanting one of 2 locations preferably due to many factors... they where keysa park (unused area neer the pool and ball fields), and Lancaster High schools large and empty expanse of land behind the school which was well out of earshot of the closest houses... though i would have also CONSIDERED como park and a few other locations.

4. the reason i wanted an outdoor park, not indoor, was largely due to the maintnance and upkeep cost including things like electricity for the lighting... hard to be self sufficient AND free with regular expenses like that. And also because i like the idea of free access, not having a lock on the door whenever some other person wants us to stay out... Another note is that by having an open, outdoor park, police can easily see whats going on if need be, so it makes for a safer environment as well since i imagine they would patrol the area somewhat regularly.

5. the federal government classifies skateboarding as an "at own risk" activity... that means that you can NOT sue for skateboarding related injuries caused on public property. so liability at that point hits hard on the buisnesses that run parks, but not on the local municipalities...

6. a concrete park done right by an experienced contractor should last at least 15 - 20 years before any real repairs are needed, and even then its almost always just patching a cracked surface or re-coping the ramps... very cheap to do...

7. the reason why you should pay taxes on parks if your elderly or just not in a "special interest group" that frequents the park is because with almost 100% certainty, i can say that you have freely used parks throughout your life, most of the time was before you even payed taxes... so its called giving back, try it sometime.

8. as stated many times earlier, you cant expect a kid to pay $10 a day AND be able to get a ride to north buffalo or grand island every day to skateboard at one of the only 2 commercial parks we have left (Xtreme Wheels -indoor-, and Grinders). Its just not practical. If you believe it is, then get a reality check... im talking about the largest faction of skaters needing the park being between 8 and 18 years old...

9. And for the curious, the 500+ signatures i recieved when doing my petition was over 90% adults... i specifically only approached people 18 years old and over, and asked the gas station attendants who helped me to do the same... i wanted credebility more than a HUGE amount of signatures from kids... let the tax payers sign, they are the ones with the voice... it is interesting though that a number of police and other official employees of the town and village declined to sign my petition though after they had told me previously that they would and a few even became the inspiration behind it... funny part is that a couple told me that they where under their superiors orders not to sign, but most would not even respond with anything but shady remarks...

10. if anyone wants to pick up where i left off, then feel free to ask me for assistance, i will lend a hand.

[MaddMatt]

I just came across this thread and read thru all the posts. I am confused though as to the business plan.

If the plan is just to have a taxpayer funded skatepark, then I don't think I am onboard. There is a reason why they don't make financial sense and other jurisdictions have closed their parks.

Why not put a plan together to open one yourself? As a young entreprenuer myself, I would support you however possible. Private sector can always do better than public so get it all down on paper and see where you can innovate and make it better than the others in the area.

Instead of turning to the gov't for our extra needs, why not find a better way to do it ourselves?

MM

[run4it]

For all you "private always does it better than public" whiners:

Apparently the private sector wasn't doing anything at all.

The point is that the value of such a park extends far beyond a dollar that can be made. However, that would be the only motivation for a private business to open. I don't blame private business for not wanting to open a skate park. I also quite clearly see the benefit of such a park.

Not necessarily the people on this board, but I've noticed that, in general, many of the people who are against projects such as this are the same ones who complain about kids hanging around "being up to no good"....the same ones who will complain about the kids skating in a parking lot or in the streets.

[MaddMatt]

As the initial Private does it better than public whiner... I see where you are coming from. A couple of things for you to consider,though

1: There are two such parks in WNY and both are relatively busy. However, there have also been attempts at a few others both indoor and out that haven't fared as well. The outdoor Town of West Seneca location comes to mind that closed a few years ago right next to the 400 onramp.

2: Skateparks, for all the positive spin people try to put on them, are not inhabited by the best and brightest youth our community has to offer. I know there are plenty of good kids that skate but the reputation of the vast majority of them isn't so hot. It makes it tougher to support publicly

3: Just because there is a park doesn't mean the kids still won't try to find a unique rail or jump in front of town hall or some store. In fact, a large part of the skater mentality is the "sk8 or die" logo of being on outsider. Just because there is a park doesn't mean the kids "up to no good" will go there instead of sticking close to home bothering the old folks;)

I have no problem with an individual getting a good plan together and opening a park as there is an incentive to make it work and a continued effort to keep it attractive to the youth in the community. Gov't entities around the country just don't have a history of doing a good job with this kind of thing.

I respect your opinion and hope you see my side of the argument

MM

[elvenson]

I just came across this thread and read thru all the posts. I am confused though as to the business plan.

If the plan is just to have a taxpayer funded skatepark, then I don't think I am onboard. There is a reason why they don't make financial sense and other jurisdictions have closed their parks.

Why not put a plan together to open one yourself? As a young entreprenuer myself, I would support you however possible. Private sector can always do better than public so get it all down on paper and see where you can innovate and make it better than the others in the area.

Instead of turning to the gov't for our extra needs, why not find a better way to do it ourselves?

MM

2 major points i need to stress here...

1. Im not rich, hell... i just had my car repoed not long ago... i cant do it myself for many reasons... chief of which is that i cant afford to build a free park with my own money, and even then, since if i built it then it would be private property, then i would be liable for everything... as mentioned above, public property is protected from liability claims regarding skateboarding... personal property is NOT

2. The point is to use the towns help in getting the land allowance from an existing, and otherwise unused piece of public park or other property in a suitable location, and then only ask for the go-ahead... the park would be made of concrete for a reason with mostly contributed funds comming from buisnesses and individuals who want to help out... as i said many posts ago... fund raising is no issue. the reason for concrete instead of wood is due to upkeep mostly... what may cost $500 a year for a concrete park in small crack repairs and such can easily cost $5k per year with a wooden park due to weather damage and regular wear... simply adding vending machines will defray most if not all upkeep costs within at least a 10 year time span if you use the profits from those machines as park maintnance funds.



For all you "private always does it better than public" whiners:

Apparently the private sector wasn't doing anything at all.

The point is that the value of such a park extends far beyond a dollar that can be made. However, that would be the only motivation for a private business to open. I don't blame private business for not wanting to open a skate park. I also quite clearly see the benefit of such a park.

Not necessarily the people on this board, but I've noticed that, in general, many of the people who are against projects such as this are the same ones who complain about kids hanging around "being up to no good"....the same ones who will complain about the kids skating in a parking lot or in the streets.

that second paragraph is a HUGE reason why i began this project in the first place, and those are the same people i was trying to appeal to.




As the initial Private does it better than public whiner... I see where you are coming from. A couple of things for you to consider,though

1: There are two such parks in WNY and both are relatively busy. However, there have also been attempts at a few others both indoor and out that haven't fared as well. The outdoor Town of West Seneca location comes to mind that closed a few years ago right next to the 400 onramp.

2: Skateparks, for all the positive spin people try to put on them, are not inhabited by the best and brightest youth our community has to offer. I know there are plenty of good kids that skate but the reputation of the vast majority of them isn't so hot. It makes it tougher to support publicly

3: Just because there is a park doesn't mean the kids still won't try to find a unique rail or jump in front of town hall or some store. In fact, a large part of the skater mentality is the "sk8 or die" logo of being on outsider. Just because there is a park doesn't mean the kids "up to no good" will go there instead of sticking close to home bothering the old folks;)

I have no problem with an individual getting a good plan together and opening a park as there is an incentive to make it work and a continued effort to keep it attractive to the youth in the community. Gov't entities around the country just don't have a history of doing a good job with this kind of thing.

I respect your opinion and hope you see my side of the argument

MM


ill respond based on paragraph numbering used:

1. Right now, Lockport has a public park, made of wood, and already showing much wear (i was there today)... its also very small and boring, but the local skaters LOVE the chance to have it there and use it very often. By 2 parks, i am guessing you mean Xtreme Wheels (north buffalo) which is indoor and costs $6-10 depending on day and time (but is our ONLY indoor park since Pipe Dreams closed many years back), and Grinders (Grand Island) which i believe is $10 and outside... Or maybe you mean the very very small but free park in Orchard Park which quite litterally has only a few very small obstacles but still has local skaters frequent it... Now if your talking about that park in west seneca, then you mean B3-West Seneca, which was a private park with a $10 admission that only closed becausethe owner got out of the buisness (i believe the reason he told me most effected his choice was the very high taxes and insurance... he also owned the VERY large B3 in Wheatfield that did rather well for a number of years). that park in west seneca right now is unused because the town owns it now and has not re-opened it... quite a shame. I personally loved the mini ramps in there, but am unwilling to get arrested for skating in there...

2. do you honestly believe that? yes, there are some pot heads, yes there are some trouble makers, but then again... they follow the same demographics as anyone else there age. There are also many top students and good kids that skate, but saying that most skaters are trouble is like saying most cops are dirty, most priests are perverts, most blonds are dumb, most kids are drug dealers, etc.... dont let one or 2 incidents confuse your outlook on all the rest of the people who enjoy the same activity... its just preposterous.

3. Your absolutely right, but it does give them another option of where to go. and its an option that is both very appealing to them and also very easy to monitor if the police wish to check in now and then as i know they like to do with many other popular gathering areas. From experience, the places kids hang out at most are A. easily accessable to them, B. free, C. close to food, drink, and entertainment (easily done by using vending machines and/or having a concession stand or some local buisness minded people come by to sell cheap drinks and snacks as i have seen done VERY well in Loisville Kentucky). Now, while its true that the skaters will still go out and ride other things, they wont do it nearly as often because they will have something better and more leagal to skate. I know every spot in lancaster thats fun to skate... as long as you can replace the need for those spots then you can DRASTICALLY cut down on the number of times people skate them.


as for the last comment you made about govt doing a good job with this... here are some GREAT jobs i have seen personally...

Akron Skatepark
Akron, Ohio
http://www.freeskateparks.com/skatepark/Akron.Ohio.Akron-Skatepark.html
http://www.ci.akron.oh.us/Recreation/SkatePark/

Athens, Ohio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Skate_Park
http://www.athensskatepark.com

Dc Shoes Street Plaza
Kettering, Ohio, United States
http://www.concretedisciples.com/skateparksdb/skateparks_display.php?id=1838

Louisville Extreme Park - Louisville, Kentucky, United States
http://www.louisvilleextremepark.org/
http://www.concretedisciples.com/skateparksdb/skateparks_display.php?id=782
(its THE BEST possible outcome one could hope for... visit the 1st site to see why)

now remember, these are only a small few that i have been to myself and could find a website for in under 10 minutes... i think you get the idea...

[MaddMatt]

>>2 major points i need to stress here...

1. Im not rich, hell... i just had my car repoed not long ago... i cant do it myself for many reasons... chief of which is that i cant afford to build a free park with my own money, and even then, since if i built it then it would be private property, then i would be liable for everything... as mentioned above, public property is protected from liability claims regarding skateboarding... personal property is NOT

2. The point is to use the towns help in getting the land allowance from an existing, and otherwise unused piece of public park or other property in a suitable location, and then only ask for the go-ahead... the park would be made of concrete for a reason with mostly contributed funds comming from buisnesses and individuals who want to help out... as i said many posts ago... fund raising is no issue. the reason for concrete instead of wood is due to upkeep mostly... what may cost $500 a year for a concrete park in small crack repairs and such can easily cost $5k per year with a wooden park due to weather damage and regular wear... simply adding vending machines will defray most if not all upkeep costs within at least a 10 year time span if you use the profits from those machines as park maintnance funds.>>>>>>>>

1-I'm sorry for your current financial state. Young and in debt sucks... been there :)

2-In other parts of the country (and to a small extent here) they have public tennis courts and other services that are privately run but owned by the town and are bid out every 5 yrs or so. That might be one way to make this work. And where you are getting your numbers from? $500 per year in maintenance sounds incredibly low. I am also curious about your vending machine numbers. Is that based on numbers from other parks?

>>>>>>>1. Right now, Lockport has a public park, made of wood, and already showing much wear (i was there today)... its also very small and boring, but the local skaters LOVE the chance to have it there and use it very often. By 2 parks, i am guessing you mean Xtreme Wheels (north buffalo) which is indoor and costs $6-10 depending on day and time (but is our ONLY indoor park since Pipe Dreams closed many years back), and Grinders (Grand Island) which i believe is $10 and outside... Or maybe you mean the very very small but free park in Orchard Park which quite litterally has only a few very small obstacles but still has local skaters frequent it... Now if your talking about that park in west seneca, then you mean B3-West Seneca, which was a private park with a $10 admission that only closed becausethe owner got out of the buisness (i believe the reason he told me most effected his choice was the very high taxes and insurance... he also owned the VERY large B3 in Wheatfield that did rather well for a number of years). that park in west seneca right now is unused because the town owns it now and has not re-opened it... quite a shame. I personally loved the mini ramps in there, but am unwilling to get arrested for skating in there...>>>>>>


Ok I knew of two parks and you listed another 3? plus some more that didn't work out and one that is sitting waiting to be opened by the next town over. Wouldn't it be easier to approack West Seneca and have them reopen their park? It would cost next to nothing to get it up and running, the land is there and ramps are ready to use.


>>>>2. do you honestly believe that? yes, there are some pot heads, yes there are some trouble makers, but then again... they follow the same demographics as anyone else there age. There are also many top students and good kids that skate, but saying that most skaters are trouble is like saying most cops are dirty, most priests are perverts, most blonds are dumb, most kids are drug dealers, etc.... dont let one or 2 incidents confuse your outlook on all the rest of the people who enjoy the same activity... its just preposterous.>>>>>>>>


Maybe I didn't state my opinion clearly. I don't believe all skaters are punks. I skated as a kid and I have a nephew who loves boarding as well and he is a great kid. My point is that the image they portray is not of wholesome fun but as rebellious, risk taking punks. It's the marketing of the sport. Look on Youtube or skater videos and that is what they market as they appeal. My point was that it is going to be tougher to get sympathy and support for this group than new tennis courts or playground.


>>>3. Your absolutely right, but it does give them another option of where to go. and its an option that is both very appealing to them and also very easy to monitor if the police wish to check in now and then as i know they like to do with many other popular gathering areas. From experience, the places kids hang out at most are A. easily accessable to them, B. free, C. close to food, drink, and entertainment (easily done by using vending machines and/or having a concession stand or some local buisness minded people come by to sell cheap drinks and snacks as i have seen done VERY well in Loisville Kentucky). Now, while its true that the skaters will still go out and ride other things, they wont do it nearly as often because they will have something better and more leagal to skate. I know every spot in lancaster thats fun to skate... as long as you can replace the need for those spots then you can DRASTICALLY cut down on the number of times people skate them.>>>>>>>>>

With a town the size of Lancaster, where could you put a skatepark that would be easily accessible? Middle of the village? Behind the High School?

Here's my idea......

Propose a plan and back it up with local business support to build the park at no cost to the town other than the land. That means you have to get a fence company or two, a few concrete companies, electricians and loads of volunteers willing to donate their time over a few weekends to build the park at NO COST to the taxpayers. Then show how Pepsi and/or a local vending company will split revenues on the pop machine and snack machines and the projected income from those. Finally propose that the rec dept bid out the running of the park with the stipulation that Lancaster residents skate for free or a minimal amount (under $5) while non-residents pay a higher entrance fee. All that income goes towards the staffing and maintenance of the park. Basicly show how this could done for zero-cost to the town from build out to operation and how this might actually turn a profit for the operators.

[MaddMatt]

ooooo

[MaddMatt]

>>2 major points i need to stress here...

1. Im not rich, hell... i just had my car repoed not long ago... i cant do it myself for many reasons... chief of which is that i cant afford to build a free park with my own money, and even then, since if i built it then it would be private property, then i would be liable for everything... as mentioned above, public property is protected from liability claims regarding skateboarding... personal property is NOT

2. The point is to use the towns help in getting the land allowance from an existing, and otherwise unused piece of public park or other property in a suitable location, and then only ask for the go-ahead... the park would be made of concrete for a reason with mostly contributed funds comming from buisnesses and individuals who want to help out... as i said many posts ago... fund raising is no issue. the reason for concrete instead of wood is due to upkeep mostly... what may cost $500 a year for a concrete park in small crack repairs and such can easily cost $5k per year with a wooden park due to weather damage and regular wear... simply adding vending machines will defray most if not all upkeep costs within at least a 10 year time span if you use the profits from those machines as park maintnance funds.>>>>>>>>


1-I'm sorry for your current financial state. Young and in debt sucks... been there :)

2-In other parts of the country (and to a small extent here) they have public tennis courts and other services that are privately run but owned by the town and are bid out every 5 yrs or so. That might be one way to make this work. And where you are getting your numbers from? $500 per year in maintenance sounds incredibly low. I am also curious about your vending machine numbers. Is that based on numbers from other parks?

>>>>>>>1. Right now, Lockport has a public park, made of wood, and already showing much wear (i was there today)... its also very small and boring, but the local skaters LOVE the chance to have it there and use it very often. By 2 parks, i am guessing you mean Xtreme Wheels (north buffalo) which is indoor and costs $6-10 depending on day and time (but is our ONLY indoor park since Pipe Dreams closed many years back), and Grinders (Grand Island) which i believe is $10 and outside... Or maybe you mean the very very small but free park in Orchard Park which quite litterally has only a few very small obstacles but still has local skaters frequent it... Now if your talking about that park in west seneca, then you mean B3-West Seneca, which was a private park with a $10 admission that only closed becausethe owner got out of the buisness (i believe the reason he told me most effected his choice was the very high taxes and insurance... he also owned the VERY large B3 in Wheatfield that did rather well for a number of years). that park in west seneca right now is unused because the town owns it now and has not re-opened it... quite a shame. I personally loved the mini ramps in there, but am unwilling to get arrested for skating in there...>>>>>>


Ok I knew of two parks and you listed another 3? plus some more that didn't work out and one that is sitting waiting to be opened by the next town over. Wouldn't it be easier to approack West Seneca and have them reopen their park? It would cost next to nothing to get it up and running, the land is there and ramps are ready to use.


>>>>2. do you honestly believe that? yes, there are some pot heads, yes there are some trouble makers, but then again... they follow the same demographics as anyone else there age. There are also many top students and good kids that skate, but saying that most skaters are trouble is like saying most cops are dirty, most priests are perverts, most blonds are dumb, most kids are drug dealers, etc.... dont let one or 2 incidents confuse your outlook on all the rest of the people who enjoy the same activity... its just preposterous.>>>>>>>>

Maybe I didn't state my opinion clearly. I don't believe all skaters are punks. I skated as a kid and I have a nephew who loves boarding as well and he is a great kid. My point is that the image they portray is not of wholesome fun but as rebellious, risk taking punks. It's the marketing of the sport. Look on Youtube or skater videos and that is what they market as they appeal. My point was that it is going to be tougher to get sympathy and support for this group than new tennis courts or playground.


>>>3. Your absolutely right, but it does give them another option of where to go. and its an option that is both very appealing to them and also very easy to monitor if the police wish to check in now and then as i know they like to do with many other popular gathering areas. From experience, the places kids hang out at most are A. easily accessable to them, B. free, C. close to food, drink, and entertainment (easily done by using vending machines and/or having a concession stand or some local buisness minded people come by to sell cheap drinks and snacks as i have seen done VERY well in Loisville Kentucky). Now, while its true that the skaters will still go out and ride other things, they wont do it nearly as often because they will have something better and more leagal to skate. I know every spot in lancaster thats fun to skate... as long as you can replace the need for those spots then you can DRASTICALLY cut down on the number of times people skate them.>>>>>>>>>
With a town the size of Lancaster, where could you put a skatepark that would be easily accessible? Middle of the village? Behind the High School?

Here's my idea......

Propose a plan and back it up with local business support to build the park at no cost to the town other than the land. That means you have to get a fence company or two, a few concrete companies, electricians and loads of volunteers willing to donate their time over a few weekends to build the park at NO COST to the taxpayers.

Then get real creative with income streams:
-show how Pepsi and/or a local vending company will split revenues on the pop machine and snack machines and the projected income from those.
-Have local advertising on billboards surrounding the park
-Allow for competitions or autograph sessions which will get more kids to come and more income

Finally propose that the rec dept bid out the running of the park with the stipulation that Lancaster residents skate for free or a minimal amount (under $5) while non-residents pay a higher entrance fee. So now residents can't complain that this is going to be a drain on our already stretched resources.

All income goes towards the staffing and maintenance of the park. Basicly show how this could done for zero-cost to the town from build out to operation and how this might actually turn a profit for the operators.

Finally, I'd just like to say how nice it is to have a debate without getting into name calling and belittling on ideas. Lots of good points have been raised and if you can implement some of the plan above, you'd have my support and possibly a nice opportunity for a small business

MM

[elvenson]

With a town the size of Lancaster, where could you put a skatepark that would be easily accessible? Middle of the village? Behind the High School?

Here's my idea......

Propose a plan and back it up with local business support to build the park at no cost to the town other than the land. That means you have to get a fence company or two, a few concrete companies, electricians and loads of volunteers willing to donate their time over a few weekends to build the park at NO COST to the taxpayers.

Then get real creative with income streams:
-show how Pepsi and/or a local vending company will split revenues on the pop machine and snack machines and the projected income from those.
-Have local advertising on billboards surrounding the park
-Allow for competitions or autograph sessions which will get more kids to come and more income

Finally propose that the rec dept bid out the running of the park with the stipulation that Lancaster residents skate for free or a minimal amount (under $5) while non-residents pay a higher entrance fee. So now residents can't complain that this is going to be a drain on our already stretched resources.

All income goes towards the staffing and maintenance of the park. Basicly show how this could done for zero-cost to the town from build out to operation and how this might actually turn a profit for the operators.

Finally, I'd just like to say how nice it is to have a debate without getting into name calling and belittling on ideas. Lots of good points have been raised and if you can implement some of the plan above, you'd have my support and possibly a nice opportunity for a small business

MM

actually, those are 2 place i really wanted... behind the high school there is a huge expanse of unused land, and in the village there is keysa park which has a bit of unuse land as well, though not as much (next to the pool and ball fields, though the new playground they put in shortened that amount of land)

as for zero cost building... this wouldnt be a project for a few volunteers... im thinking that $250-400k worth of fundraising should be done, then have it all built professionally by some of the top builders in the country in such a way that peoplle will want to travel to lancaster just to skate it... which of course means that pro companies would be more likely to show up, which draws crowds and thus becomes a good revenue generator for the town since all the people that come by are going to need food, drink, and even gas from local buisnesses... (yes, it can be built for less, but i feel that setting the funding goal high is a good idea and can turn out leading to a much better park)

what you say about income streams is along the lines of what i was thinking... though i didnt think of billboards, i was thinking of working sponser names into the project using signs, stickers, or paint.

the park must be free, i wont budge on that one... theres no point doing all this if its not free for all to use.

the park needs no staff unless the rec department wants to put a concession stand in, in which case it will pay for itself. And as i said before... concrete parks (modern ones) need almost no maintnance for many years... seriously, $500 a year would do it mostly because it will be a few ears in between having to do maintnance, so you figure if a crack appears on a ledge after 3 years, its NOT gonna cost $1500 or even $500 to fix it. durability is a HUGE advantage in concrete over other park types... the other is that people like them more since they are smoother, sturdier, and usually layed out much better, so more people will want to skate it.

yes, it is nice to have a civil discussion such as this. it happens so rarely on the internet, but then again, im sure im speaking to a respectful adult right now and not some kid who is just trolling forums. its a good change of pace :)

[Virginia]

Visit www.xtreme-wheels.com.

[elvenson]

Thats pretty much the only park left here thats of any decent size... fortunately its indoor for all weather skating, unfortunately its only one location and in north buffalo.... so geting there can be an issue for many kids... plus, while prices are fair, its still not free. virginia has bills to pay obviously.

oh, and what happened virginia? you guys used to do alot of cool concerts... i miss those. live music to skate to was a very appealing draw for me. Throwdown and Tsunami Bomb were awesome sows a few years ago...

[WNYresident]

Well teach your kids nothing is free. Someone somewhere pays for free.

[elvenson]

Well teach your kids nothing is free. Someone somewhere pays for free.

people with that attitude are whats responsible for this areas decline... it wont cost you a cent to support this, so why the negativity?

[WNYresident]

people with that attitude are whats responsible for this areas decline... it wont cost you a cent to support this, so why the negativity?

WHat are you talking about.

Who pays for this? Is this gonna be a privately owned skate park? No grants or anything?

[4248]

Nice to hear from you again.

It doesn't seem like you've got to far - but keep the dream alive! As when we exchanged posts before - I told you people who are "Tax Aware" wont support another tax fed freebie.

Your ideas are valid - your intentions are obvious - your determination should serve you well in life.

I just cant see you getting anything "donated by the Towns" - Politicians might latch on when they can use it as campaign material. That way if it doesn't happen they can say you backed out.

You need to find a good "Venture Capital" agency. Like we talked about before - get your supporters to at least "Pledge Funds" - thats a good way to show investors you have solid support.

Vendors will also give you a good idea of "pay to locate" programs. They can give you good numbers to use when estimating projected sales.

If you need any leads or if I can help - shoot me a message. But do your self a big favor - don't bug the taxpayers until you can actually start paying taxes.:D No offense meant.:D

[elvenson]

lol, i do pay taxes...

also, as mentioned before, this project does not cost tax payers a dime. it just adds value to the town and fills some unused empty land...

no grants, no taxes, no government support required other than land and permits... when i had my petition going around a few years ago i had recieved offers from local companies to donate to the project. the funds offered totaled over $80k. At the time i was only asking for petition signatures to show interest from residents, not donations...

[MaddMatt]

If you had $80k in pledges, why didn't you move ahead on getting _something_ built?

I realize that you want a world class park but I would think that $80k could get you a real nice start.

And while you want this to be a freebie for the public, there still needs to be someway to cover payroll and misc expenses.... doesn't there?

I would think the business model of a public golf course would be a good starting point. You could rent out the concessions to the highest bidder and then charge for a season pass or a few bucks every time they skate. If the park is open 10-12 hours a day that's around $1000 a week in payroll alone.

I think it's an interesting idea but in this day and age, you need to have a good hook to get the town/village interested and a turn-key potentially profitable venture at no cost to them seems like a pretty good hook to me

MM

[elvenson]

Again, the park MUST be free. this is not a buisness, its a community park.

no staff is required. once built, the park will not need faculty to run it. just like a playground, no supervision is needed. as for concessions, it may not be worthwhile to staff a full concession stand at first, that should be done if the park shows heavy use though... simply installing vending machines is good for a start. im sure we could work on a deal with a vendor to share part of the proffits to be held in an account for use at the park.

if the park is not free, most people will not come to it as often or from as far away...

billboards are a good idea, or signs at least to get some add revenue to the park and maybe share a portion with the town as well. other revenue for the park and town can be gained by holding events to draw crouds. play the cards right and we may even become a destination that everyone travels to, pros and amatures alike.

[Lee Chowaniec]

Again, the park MUST be free. this is not a buisness, its a community park.

no staff is required. once built, the park will not need faculty to run it. just like a playground, no supervision is needed. as for concessions, it may not be worthwhile to staff a full concession stand at first, that should be done if the park shows heavy use though... simply installing vending machines is good for a start. im sure we could work on a deal with a vendor to share part of the proffits to be held in an account for use at the park.

if the park is not free, most people will not come to it as often or from as far away...

billboards are a good idea, or signs at least to get some add revenue to the park and maybe share a portion with the town as well. other revenue for the park and town can be gained by holding events to draw crouds. play the cards right and we may even become a destination that everyone travels to, pros and amatures alike.

Not to rain on your parade, but have you ever contacted the town on getting town owned land gifted to you for a skatepark, especially when the town is constantly grumbling that there is a need for more soccer fields; and now lacrosse fields. And if the town donated undeveloped land to you, who would pay for putting in the roads, parking lot, equipment, restrooms, etc.

Have you ever contacted an insurance carrier on what the annual liabilty cost on such venture would be?

[elvenson]

Not to rain on your parade, but have you ever contacted the town on getting town owned land gifted to you for a skatepark, especially when the town is constantly grumbling that there is a need for more soccer fields; and now lacrosse fields. And if the town donated undeveloped land to you, who would pay for putting in the roads, parking lot, equipment, restrooms, etc.

Have you ever contacted an insurance carrier on what the annual liabilty cost on such venture would be?

as stated many times.... it doesnt need insurance...

also stated, the development would come from funds raised... no new roads needed either...

[Lee Chowaniec]

from what i have learned so far, there seem to be plenty of provisions already n place that cover the insurance problem very effectively. The cost of a skateparks insurance will be no higher than that of a swimming pool or athletic field. This ofcourse is assuming you pay for insurance.... bringing me to the next interesting fact, insurance for a facility of this type, while not operated by a private sector, is 100% non required. The same insurance that covers the town for a person falling on thier face while crossing a street or running on a sidewalk is the one that we need..... NOTHING!!!

There are laws and such that protect against certain kinds of liability. One of those kinds is the participation in what is known by the federal government as "voluntary high risk activities". It has been declared years ago that skateboarding, aggressive in line, BMX and many other such activities fall into this category. What the rules say basically is that you know what you are doing and have accepted all risk in doing so, thus the only person at fault if harm should come is you, yourself. the only way to go after someone since that was decided in washington would be if they either directly caused you to have an accident resulting in injury. For instance: your skateing along and some guy throws a brick in front of your wheels, you fall and break an arm. That is pretty much what your allowed to sue over. The only other way is if the park was "for profit". Thats only because it would then have to follow buisness procedures (which includes need for insurance), instead of just being considered a part of the landscape no more than an ordinary park. Also, through creative naming, you can also build something like a concrete park, call it a parking lot, and actually allow kids to skate there for free. By doing that, your saying that all it is is a concrete made to look diferent and kids happen to skate on it. No park, no need for insurance.

There are far too many ways to get around insurance issues to list here, but know this: If a town says no because they dont want to pay insurance, all they are actually saying is "No, we dont want to. Go away."

After re-reading this commentary and considering your assumption that the town would allow you to place your project in one of their parks and/or donate land to you, I can only come to the conclusion that you are naive, as some have already said that to you.

This project would be a hard sell in good economic times. Now, forgidaboudit.

[elvenson]

Ok, so how is something that is free to build, free to operate, cost the town nothing, and helps add revenue to the community a hard sell?

[MaddMatt]

Ok, so how is something that is free to build, free to operate, cost the town nothing, and helps add revenue to the community a hard sell?

I like the argument but I don't know if it's true.

Free to build? If you raise all the funds and do all the work without the need for the DPW, police or town land than you have a point. I think you would need some of that help, though. Even if the land is just sitting there, there is a value attached to it and therefore not free

Free to operate? There will be maintanance costs, daily custodial costs, and no matter how great these kids are, supervisory costs. In the same way you have supervision at the town pool, baseball leagues etc, when a semi-dangerous sport is being played the town wants to make sure that people are behaving and playing properly

Add revenue to the community? Possibly if people stop for an Amp and a tank of gas on the way but for the community's small stake in it it's not much.

Now remember, I have been a supporter of yours but I want you to have answers to these concerns so when you go in front of some board you are ready. Don't get defensive, do more research. Show us other localities that have made it work and why the ones that didn't screwed up.

I've said all along, alot of skaters are great kids but the image is not. Skater Punk is not something that was made up out of the blue and the skater attitude is real with many skaters. Your plan has to be bullet proof and you may wish to consider backing down from some of your ideals like no supervision and no cost. Heck even the town pool has a cost associated to it!!!

MM

[elvenson]

I like the argument but I don't know if it's true.

Free to build? If you raise all the funds and do all the work without the need for the DPW, police or town land than you have a point. I think you would need some of that help, though. Even if the land is just sitting there, there is a value attached to it and therefore not free

Free to operate? There will be maintanance costs, daily custodial costs, and no matter how great these kids are, supervisory costs. In the same way you have supervision at the town pool, baseball leagues etc, when a semi-dangerous sport is being played the town wants to make sure that people are behaving and playing properly

Add revenue to the community? Possibly if people stop for an Amp and a tank of gas on the way but for the community's small stake in it it's not much.

Now remember, I have been a supporter of yours but I want you to have answers to these concerns so when you go in front of some board you are ready. Don't get defensive, do more research. Show us other localities that have made it work and why the ones that didn't screwed up.

I've said all along, alot of skaters are great kids but the image is not. Skater Punk is not something that was made up out of the blue and the skater attitude is real with many skaters. Your plan has to be bullet proof and you may wish to consider backing down from some of your ideals like no supervision and no cost. Heck even the town pool has a cost associated to it!!!

MM

A pool has a cost because it needs a life guard, chemicals, water replacement yearly, and daily maintnance... that adds up quite a bit.

I have skated dozens of free parks accross the country, and i am 100% being truthful when i say that NONE had a staff member there for supervision... a couple had food stands, 1 had maintnance...

[Lee Chowaniec]

Ok, so how is something that is free to build, free to operate, cost the town nothing, and helps add revenue to the community a hard sell?

It is my understanding that the town could not provide (deed over) land to you for your venture. Land deemed surplus has to go to public auction for bid. If you were lucky enough to not have competing bidders, you could pick up the land for next to nothing. But that land would have value and you would pay taxes on the assessed valuation.

If you approached the town and asked for a parcel of parkland for your venue, and then told them that neither you nor they would be responsible for liability insurance only because you would post a sign that would say, "Skate at your own risk", they would show you the door in a heart beat.

And if the town were so foolish as to undertake your project and supply insurance (at any cost), there would be an outcry from residents who are already overburdened with taxes. There is no such thing as a free lunch. And it would be interesting to hear whether your "backers" are still interested in your project considering today's economic crisis.

[4248]

I was just wondering - this issue seemed to start here on SUWNY in 2005 -(October 5th, 2005)

No one has seen or heard about it until recently - ????

Me thinks this is nothing more than a distraction?

Yes, I am sometimes over-reactive - but!

Its a dead issue - it went no where - no one I know has ever seen the petitions or anything else accept these posts.

But it sure does have a way of dominating the Lancaster section here - doesn't it?


Just a thought?!?!
:cool:

[Lee Chowaniec]

I was just wondering - this issue seemed to start here on SUWNY in 2005 -(October 5th, 2005)

No one has seen or heard about it until recently - ????

Me thinks this is nothing more than a distraction?

Yes, I am sometimes over-reactive - but!

Its a dead issue - it went no where - no one I know has ever seen the petitions or anything else accept these posts.

But it sure does have a way of dominating the Lancaster section here - doesn't it?


Just a thought?!?!
:cool:

Excellent point! It's much ado about nothing!

[elvenson]

The petitions were done in summer of 2005. Mobile at central and broadway and a couple area residents were keeping them for about a month. I personally went out durring the july forth event and got signatures from local adults. (did not accept minors signatures for reasons of credibility).

the lancaster town board always met durring my work shift, so i never had the chance to bring this to them.

i had done extensive research into the liability issue as well as noise ordinance, zoning, and some other important factors. i did give up on this project in 2006 due to my lack of time to persue it further. overtime, school, plus my own startup drained my time too much.

with many exceptions, there seems to be alot of close minded naysayers here who dont look at facts presented or do their own research before speaking as if they knew what they were speaking of... kina pointless to debate with those types of people.

[MaddMatt]

Again, I urge you not to look at them as naysayers but as the public yet to be won over. let's face it, you are asking for a piece of my tax money to get it going even if it's only a parcel of parkland.

Convince the naysayers here and you go a long way to having the ammo necessary to get your project to fruition.

The less informed of us can point to a number of other municipalities that tried and failed to do this. Even without any startup costs there would be considerable expense to tear down the concrete jungle if it flops or someone gets seriously injured like at other parks across the country.

You keep insisiting that this be a town project. Yet there are many private skateparks around the country, so why not take the $80k in pledges and make them shareholders who all contribute to making this a reality. It would seem to be a much easier route and it could get done much faster in the private sector than the public one. You could also run it exactly as you think it should be run.

MM

[elvenson]

Again, I urge you not to look at them as naysayers but as the public yet to be won over. let's face it, you are asking for a piece of my tax money to get it going even if it's only a parcel of parkland.

Convince the naysayers here and you go a long way to having the ammo necessary to get your project to fruition.

The less informed of us can point to a number of other municipalities that tried and failed to do this. Even without any startup costs there would be considerable expense to tear down the concrete jungle if it flops or someone gets seriously injured like at other parks across the country.

You keep insisiting that this be a town project. Yet there are many private skateparks around the country, so why not take the $80k in pledges and make them shareholders who all contribute to making this a reality. It would seem to be a much easier route and it could get done much faster in the private sector than the public one. You could also run it exactly as you think it should be run.

MM

Tax write offs and pr are big reasons a buisness would donate... if you make them shareholders then considerable amounts of legal papers need to be filed, and they will expect profits as a part of buisness ownership.... that means the core need for a free park will not be met. this method also means these contributors have a say inthe running of said buisness.... that means alot of problems as well since its a free park and because all decisions to be made would then need the approval of investors... lengthy and often counter productive process...

[MaddMatt]

I appreciate your point of view.

I'll be blunt. It's been a few years and you seem to be no closer to making this happen. A number of posters have offered differing POV's to get you thinking about solutions to the issues that the different gov't boards will bring up but, to your credit, you are sticking to your guns... unwavering in your convictions. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like those convictions will get the job done.

As someone who has started a few different successful businesses, I can tell you it's easier to do it yourself but it takes time, effort, lots of hard work, loads of help and a plan to succeed.

Good Luck going your route. I hope to see something in the future but I get the feeling that your "half-Pipe" paradise is more like a pipe dream.

MM

MM

[TTDeathInLan]

With all this talk of, "FREE" and. "PROFITS" AND PUTTING lANCASTER ON SOMRBODY'S map, you would think that the IDA would br falling all over thenself's to provide grants.

With ALL this corporate, "sponsorship" available, you would think one of these corporations could deed over a small parcel of land for this project.

With all these pie in the sky idea's, there is only one shure thing. So long as this thing goes no further, only then will it remain "FREE".

[BuffaloTransplant]

Ok, so how is something that is free to build, free to operate, cost the town nothing, and helps add revenue to the community a hard sell?

Can you spell INSURANCE or LAWSUIT ?

BTW: If it was free & cost the town nothing, was privately owned -- just how would it add revenue?

[elvenson]

Can you spell INSURANCE or LAWSUIT ?

BTW: If it was free & cost the town nothing, was privately owned -- just how would it add revenue?

can you spell FEDERAL PROTECTION FROM LAWSUIT?

i went over the revenue bit already, read some more towards the beginning of this thread...

[MaddMatt]

If the town can't be sued why does it carry special event insurance for things like the 4th of July?

So if some kid gets hit by a bat at keysa park or falls off the playground and their head cracks open, their parents can't sue?

Hmmmm....... I'd have to do a little more research on that one :)

MM

[metal god]

As much as my son growing up did his share of skateboarding..this town needs more recreational areas that can be used by a larger percentage of the public, than a small minority....