Why Saving The Libraries Is Important

[buffalofamily]

Here is an email I got from another group that is helping the community. Yes, it's that important that the remaining branches be saved.

WHY SAVING THE LIBRARIES IS IMPORTANT .

1. We believe in "investing in education" - Our current public library system is our best source of equitable self-education, and a valuable resource to our school systems. How will our life-long learners that do not attend school continue to learn about environmental issues without accessible libraries? Where will our kids go to get homework help?

2. We believe in "containing sprawl & revitalizing our cities" - If Buffalo libraries are closed, our city neighborhoods will suffer a loss of quality of life, probably increasing flight from the city (sprawl) to the suburbs, to our rapidly disappearing rural landscape, or out of the area, shrinking our tax rolls. Enlightened communities around the country are becoming part of a pro-neighborhood, anti-sprawl movement, while our library system is proposing moving in the opposite direction!

3. We believe in "preserving neighborhoods" - With TWO Buffalo libraries slated to close to open ONE (and more threatened), neighborhoods are being threatened with a loss of quality of life. A library that is open is an asset to the community - a library that is closed is a detriment to the community.

4. We believe in "keeping libraries accessible" - Information is for everyone! Neighborhood libraries are outposts of information, like convenience stores - not superstores. If libraries are not accessible, their services do no good. According to WNY transportation experts, 40% of ADULTS in Buffalo have no access to cars. (That’s not counting all the children who don’t.)

5. We believe in "strengthening recycling" - Our current public library system is a model of reuse and recycling - millions of books are used hundreds, even thousands of times, then, even when they’re determined to be outdated, they are put up for sale to the public at nominal prices. That’s a hard act to follow

6. We believe in "fighting racism, sexism, ageism" - Our current public libraries are equal opportunity services open to all. If Buffalo libraries close, many in those neighborhoods will not get that equal opportunity to access information.

7. We believe in "Decentralization" - The Erie County Library Board’s (BECPL’s) move to close 2 neighborhood libraries is the opposite - centralization/consolidation.

8. We believe in "grassroots democracy" - All suburban libraries have their own boards, and contracts with the BECPL, so they make many of their own decisions. The Buffalo libraries already have lost that power, having no board or contract, and are often thought to be the "poor relations" of our suburban libraries.

9. We "support mass transit" - Most, if not all current libraries are on well-used public transportation routes and placed in residential neighborhoods where many walk or bike to them. Forcing people to get into cars to go to "centralized" libraries is unenvironmental.

10. We believe in "social & economic justice" - Many library users in Buffalo, including children, would not be able to access a library if their neighborhood library was closed. If they could, it would be an added financial burden many will not be able to afford - to get to and from a "centralized" library outside of their safe neighborhood. Instead of walking to their neighborhood library at NO COST, a family of 5 (2 parents, 1 child over 12, and 2 children 5- 11) would pay $11.60 round-trip for the privilege of visiting the library, (assuming they could get to it, since crosstown buses have been cut)! It is also an unfair double standard to replace suburban libraries ONE for ONE, while consolidating Buffalo libraries by closing TWO or more to open ONE

I love getting good email,
Buffalofamily

[buffalofamily]

Now the talk is of the location of the new library on Abbott. Well as many predicted "Abbott road gets everything".

MORE SECRET MEETINGS ARE GOING ON --- County Legislator Schroeder said at a public meeting, "NO MORE PRIVATE MEETINGS", but secret negoiations are under way, as reported in this weeks "South Buffalo News".

FOLKS, IT'S A DIRTY DEAL

[Grumpy]

WHY SAVING THE LIBRARIES IS un IMPORTANT .

1. <<We believe in "investing in education" - Our current public library system is our best source of equitable self-education, and a valuable resource to our school systems.>>

Hardly, you won't get much more than grade school education from our public library system. You can find more useful information online than you can in a neighborhood library.

<< How will our life-long learners that do not attend school continue to learn about environmental issues without accessible libraries?>>

The only decent library system in WNY is at UB. If you really want to educate yourself you won't find much in newsstand magazines and self help books. You need access to research and professional journals, and textbooks.

<< Where will our kids go to get homework help?>>

At home. If their parents are too stupid to help a kid with his or her homework than you have bigger problems than the closing of a library. If the parent can't help, then the kid can go to school a few minutes early to get help from the teacher. Teachers are overpaid, they should do something to earn their paycheck.

2. <<We believe in "containing sprawl & revitalizing our cities" - If Buffalo libraries are closed, our city neighborhoods will suffer a loss of quality of life, probably increasing flight from the city (sprawl) to the suburbs, to our rapidly disappearing rural landscape, or out of the area, shrinking our tax rolls.>>

Only a moron would move to the suburbs because they can't walk to a library, because very few suburbs have a library within walking distance to more than a single subdivision. Anyone who can afford to live in the suburbs has already moved, and it wasn't because of the libraries.

<< Enlightened communities around the country are becoming part of a pro-neighborhood, anti-sprawl movement, while our library system is proposing moving in the opposite direction! >>

This is just an idiotic statement, the author needs to lay off the crack pipe.

3. <<We believe in "preserving neighborhoods" - With TWO Buffalo libraries slated to close to open ONE (and more threatened), neighborhoods are being threatened with a loss of quality of life. >>

City neighborhoods have more pressing "quality of life" issues than a library closing. Once again, lay off the pipe.

4. <<We believe in "keeping libraries accessible" - Information is for everyone! Neighborhood libraries are outposts of information, like convenience stores - not superstores. If libraries are not accessible, their services do no good. >>

And just like a convenience store, they have no selection worth speaking of. If you need a readers digest or a novel they're OK, otherwise they're useless.

5. <<We believe in "strengthening recycling" - Our current public library system is a model of reuse and recycling - millions of books are used hundreds, even thousands of times, >>

I'd bet not more than 3% of the books are used hundreds of times.

6. <<We believe in "fighting racism, sexism, ageism" - Our current public libraries are equal opportunity services open to all. If Buffalo libraries close, many in those neighborhoods will not get that equal opportunity to access information.>>

Quit whining. If someone wants to get to a library they will. A hundred years ago it was common for kids to walk ten miles or more to get to school. If someone is too lazy to find a way to get to a library that's their problem, not the problem of the other 99.999% of county taxpayers.

7. <<We believe in "Decentralization" - The Erie County Library Board’s (BECPL’s) move to close 2 neighborhood libraries is the opposite - centralization/consolidation.>>

Who cares what you believe? Why is your belief in "decentralization" more valid that anyone else's belief in consolidation? I believe the author of the posted diatribe is a ignorant welfare recipient that thinks they are entitled to anything they want regardless of who has to pay for it.


8. <<We believe in "grassroots democracy" - All suburban libraries have their own boards, and contracts with the BECPL, so they make many of their own decisions. The Buffalo libraries already have lost that power, having no board or contract, and are often thought to be the "poor relations" of our suburban libraries.>>

Quit whining and do something about it other than complain. Get your whole group together and start to take over the county's democrat/republican/green/reform party apparatus. If you can get 50 or 60 people you'll be the moajority, then you can pick your own candidate.

9. <<We "support mass transit" - Most, if not all current libraries are on well-used public transportation routes and placed in residential neighborhoods where many walk or bike to them. Forcing people to get into cars to go to "centralized" libraries is unenvironmental.>>

OK, I guess you want to take over the green party then.

10. <<We believe in "social & economic justice" - Many library users in Buffalo, including children, would not be able to access a library if their neighborhood library was closed.>>

So, who cares?

<< If they could, it would be an added financial burden many will not be able to afford >>

So the moajority of us have to take on an added financial burden to pay for your library access? I don't think so.

<<- to get to and from a "centralized" library outside of their safe neighborhood. >>

Buffalo and "safe neighborhood" are mutually exclusive (go to the library and check out a math text on set theory if you don't understand the statement).

<<Instead of walking to their neighborhood library at NO COST, a family of 5 (2 parents, 1 child over 12, and 2 children 5- 11) would pay $11.60 round-trip for the privilege of visiting the library, (assuming they could get to it, since crosstown buses have been cut)!>>

Who says you can't walk to the library is the next neighborhood? Is anything farther than the next block too far for you to travel??

<< It is also an unfair double standard to replace suburban libraries ONE for ONE, while consolidating Buffalo libraries by closing TWO or more to open ONE>>

Not neccessarily, it should really be based on population density. Buffalo should have proportionately more libraries than a given suburb, no more, no less. If a suburb with one fifth the population has 3 libraries, then buffalo should have 15. Buffalo shouldn't have lots of libraries just because its Buffalo, but they should have a suitable number based on population compared to other areas of the county.

[Allyssa]

If their parents are too stupid to help a kid with his or her homework .... the kid can go to school a few minutes early to get help from the teacher

First of all, you don't know if that is the case. Many children could come from single parent homes where the parent works when the child is arriving home. and secondly...Majority of the kids in these communities are bussed out of their neighborhood for schooling... so getting to school a little earlier is highly unlikely due to the bus driver's schedule of picking up other kids.


lay off the pipe.
Just you're opinion to beleive everyone that disagrees with you is smoking crack.

A hundred years ago it was common for kids to walk ten miles or more to get to school.
now, is that up-hill BOTH ways? In blinding snow? And wearing no boots?

Who says you can't walk to the library is the next neighborhood? Is anything farther than the next block too far for you to travel??

This propossal means miles between locations not blocks. And anyone who's been a true Buffalonian can understand the dangers of our Buffalo winters, anyone couldn't possibly walk a mile or more to a "neighborhood" library in the type of winters we have... especially when residents and businesses don't have the decency to shovel the sidewalks.

So, who cares?
Since you're asking... I raise my hand. I care for children's safety.

I believe the author of the posted diatribe is a ignorant welfare recipient that thinks they are entitled to anything they want regardless of who has to pay for it.

Why do you assume that because people don't want to see the county spend $4 million on a new library, that they're lazy welfare recips? Do you live in South Buffalo and know the people who are trying to end this political sham?

This is Giambra and Schroeder, and Martino all pushing something that isn't wanted in our neighborhoods... maybe to you it can be seen better as passing the 'crack pipe' (if you will) and someone saying "no thanks". But they keep insisting.

Granted, libraries and crack don't quite go hand in hand, but the point is that if so many people are against this proposal, why are they still pushing it on us? And how is the spending of $4 million seen as "consolidation"? The politicians tell one thing about saving money, and push for something that spends more.

[Unregistered]

Get rid of these damn libraries already. My daughter who by the way just turned six last month has already read or had read to her 90% of the matreial suitable for her ages as she grew. Basically there is nothing at these libraries to barrow anymore. The dudley branch is a s#!7 hole. Has been for a long time. Actually long as I can remember going into that place in 1988 looking to do a report for my 7th grade history class on Abe Lincoln. Couldn't find crap on him except the usual crap I already had in my text.


OH AND BY THE WAY I LIVE OVER 2 MILES FROM EITHER LIBRARY AND STILL MANAGE TO MAKE IT THERE. I THINK ANY IDIOT THAT CAN RIDE A BIKE OR HAS 2 WORKING LEGS AN FEET CAN MAKE IT THERE ALSO. What you do not realise is that these two libraries are also for the valley,1st ward,babcock. They can't walk there, can they ? So if a central library will make it easier for them to get their due use out of it, are they not entitled ?

Just because you think it is yours because it is just down the block dosen't mean that you can ignore the right others have to a closer library.

I would suggest that this thread get wiped off the board because you people are getting very self serving !!!!!!!
Not my library/ I would have to leave the 1 mile radius I allow myself/ Only I have the right too say when and where a library goes up. Grow up and relise that thing change. I'm sure you don't look at the world the same as when you were 25. Oh you do that is why noone wants to come to Buffalo.

[sbGUY27]

That last unregistered was me !

So allysa there are people in your neighborhood that want to see some 21st century progress. Young people that chose to stay and rebuild what you have been holding back and destroying.

[buffalofamily]

Well, In fact, these two libraries can hold much more material, but the BECPL system has been letting these libraries run with less than their full capacity.

IF DUDLEY IS SUCH AS YOU SAY IT IS...GUESS WHO LET IT GET THAT WAY??? THE SAME FOLKS WHO WILL RUN A NEW ONE AND LET IT GO TO ....

We are here to help save WNY from any further decline and wasteful spending. AT LEAST I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE INTENT OF THESE FORUMS.

SBguy stated:

I would suggest that this thread get wiped off the board because you people are getting very self serving !!!!!!!

WELL YOU MIGHT AS WELL CLOSE DOWN ALL THE TOPICS AND SHUT DOWN THE BOARDS--

[Grumpy]

Allyssa, let me answer your points one by one:


<<First of all, you don't know if that is the case. Many children could come from single parent homes where the parent works when the child is arriving home. and secondly...>>

Good point, I hadn't considered that. But it is still not the taxpayers responsibility to pay through the nose to help out single parent households. On the otherhand, I personally give single parents a lot of credit for doing the best they can to raise a family.

<<Majority of the kids in these communities are bussed out of their neighborhood for schooling... so getting to school a little earlier is highly unlikely due to the bus driver's schedule of picking up other kids.>>

Then maybe a more reasonable approach is to take over a party apparatus to change the school system back to neighborhood schools.


<<Just you're opinion to beleive everyone that disagrees with you is smoking crack.>>

No, I was specifically referring to stupid statements such as:

"Enlightened communities around the country are becoming part of a pro-neighborhood, anti-sprawl movement, while our library system is proposing moving in the opposite direction! "

Only a crackhead would make a statement implying the library system in pro-sprawl. The authorof this diatribe needs to quit using propagandist statements and write something well thought out.

For example, most of your posts contain intelligent thoughts on the subject and not just propaganda statements. You include facts and figures to back up your points, not just rediculous statements. So you, at least, do not appear to be indulging in the pipe. So maybe you should contact the slogan shouters and tell them that they haven't done a single thing to convince anyone that we should care about this issue. Or you could volunteer to write their memos and the rest of us would actually take them seriously as you seem to be able to intelligently debate an issue.

<<Why do you assume that because people don't want to see the county spend $4 million on a new library, that they're lazy welfare recips? >>

The point I was trying to make when I posted this (and didn't quite finish it) is that my statement is about as absurd as the author's statement "We believe in DECENTRALIZATION" or whatever it said. Who cares what he/she believes, and who cares what I believe. Anyone can make a totally irrational statement, but what has that to do with this debate?

<<Do you live in South Buffalo and know the people who are trying to end this political sham? >>

I live on the east side, but had a lot of friends growing up that lived there. I spent a lot of time in my teens at caz, and I had relatives that used to live off of Abbott Rd so in the past I spent a lot of time there.

<<This is Giambra and Schroeder, and Martino all pushing something that isn't wanted in our neighborhoods... maybe to you it can be seen better as passing the 'crack pipe' (if you will) and someone saying "no thanks". But they keep insisting. >>

I applaud your efforts to fight consolidation, and as I've said before in other threads I don't think the new library should be built. But at the same time if the county goes into the red (and it will soon), then expect to have one of your libraries closed anyway.

[Allyssa]

"What you do not realise is that these two libraries are also for the valley,1st ward,babcock. They can't walk there, can they ? So if a central library will make it easier for them to get their due use out of it, are they not entitled ?"

If you've read some of my earlier posts on the library proposal, I have ... several times suggested that if funds are available to construct a new Branch; then it should be someplace where a community is in need. Leaving Caz and Dudley alone the way they are and consrtucting a new one in the Valley of First Ward. Afterall, it's money to spend on the libraries, so why do they have to take two to build one?

Your opinion on the library issue is just that... your opinion. However, that doesn't mean everyone else is "self serving" because they are American enough to form their own opinion.

Secondly, the notion of banning threads (on the message boards) about the libraries is seen as a form of cencorship, and if you have no need for any library what is it for you to over-ride the ones who do need them?

Why do you feel there's a need to "shut up" those who are "speaking up"???

The latest artitle Buff Fam referses to in the South Buffalo paper outlines the new site to be on Abbott Rd. in the area of Mercy Hospital... do you know of any 1.1 acers of land available near Mercy to construct without demolishing at least something???

There's big possibilties that this site will take up an entire city block... as you know, there are a lot of business and resident lots in that area. Is it really ok for them to claim a form of "public domain" at the expense of forcing exsisting people out just to build a new library where; need I say again, the politicians want it to be?


"The dudley branch is a s#!7 hole"
Have you ever heard the expression, On man's trash is another's treasure ?

You may beleive in what you say, but for the ones that need these locations will always disagree with your frame of mind.

[Allyssa]

Grumpy,

You said "Then maybe a more reasonable approach is to take over a party apparatus to change the school system back to neighborhood schools."

South Buffalo has lost three neighborhood schools at the hands of the Buffalo Board of Ed. These closing don't come at the cost of a decline in population, they are visable as a result of the BBofE financial struggles. Hence our theory in keeping the neighborhood libraries accessable in the nieghborhood... so at least the kids will have something close to home. You, yourself said "I spent a lot of time in my teens at caz" and this should be important for the up-and-coming teens.

For example, most of your posts contain intelligent thoughts on the subject and not just propaganda statements.

I can say the feeling is mutual.

Thinking outside of the box is important, yet if the thoughts of a thread here is focused inside one neighborhood, then I feel jumping out of the box to spout isn't exaclty benificial for the people that are strong enough to question the politicians in the South Buffalo community.

We all want the same quality of life, and having libraries available is one of them.

[Unregistered]

I don't feel any need to quite anyone. But when I here don't take my library or keep our library , that sound selfish and selfserving. When the libraries are county owned and someone with a library card from Angola or Cheektowaga is free to borrow from caz or dudley. That does not make it ours or yours now does it. It's the countys. And this is a quality of life issue. You can replace aging buildings with a more modern up to date version or you can keep the crap the way it is. I know you prefer the latter and I will remind you again your way of thinking is ruining Buffalo.

[Unregistered]

Another thing about the public transportation. If I was going to pay a $1.50 to ride to the library I would take the buss all the way downtown. The real library down there is only a short walk from any last metro stop. You don't even need a transfer.

[sbGUY27]

My computer has stoped signing me in with cookies? Those last 2 were my replies

[Allyssa]

You can replace aging buildings with a more modern up to date version or you can keep the crap the way it is.

You'll have to really take a look at how the older branches got the way they are, starting with the county... they are respondsible for the "up-keep". And Besides, there is nothing at all wrong with two libraries.

And if aged branches should go, then be prepared to shell out more property tax money, because the Central Branch in downtown is just as aged as these two branches. So, I guess it'll cost everyone more to replace more -- out with the old and in with the new, right? At what price and with how's money?

Secondly, just because something is old doesn't mean it's crap... take for instense Independence Hall in Philadelphia PA, that is one of the oldest buildings in America, is that crap too? No, of course not, but my point is that what appears to be "crap" to some on the outside, others can see it for it's fundemental abilities from the inside.

But when I here (hear) don't take my library or keep our library , that sound selfish and selfserving.

Perhaps it could be that you're willing to judge a book by it's cover.

When someone whom uses the word "our", it's taken out of context by others that would assumingly hear it as a possessional status by that person only. "Our library" is refered to for an entire community.

your way of thinking is ruining Buffalo

How is that so? Preservation of somethings shouldn't be seen as ruining anything, anyplace or anyone.

My way of thinking is simply trying to save $4 million at the hands of political officials. How is that a ruin? Within Mayor Masiello's comprehensive plan, we (all of Buffalo) should be retaining what's standing now and build onto the assets; not give into the political status-quo that says "newer and bigger equals better" .

[sbGUY27]

YOU PEOPLE ARE NUTS.

You are the type to start some kind of urban terror to keep what you thought was yours. And when you say ours as in community that is just what you sasy on the site . I know you don't mean it. You are of the type that thinks it is truly yours. I am not the only one that has said something to that same effect to you.

Well if the county was not taking care of the buildings in the first place why didn't you start bitching to them before they wasnt to take your library.

Lets just face it . It's not about 4 million dollars, Or that a new library is going to be built. It is the fact that you don't like change and are unwilling to get on public transportation like you suggest others do. God for bid you rub elbows with some unseemly kind. You know those are the only ones who ride the bus to begin with.

[buffalofamily]

NOPE,

It's about livable, walkable neighborhoods that we live in. We pay taxes for these libraries. They were built here for a reason. IT'S CALLED SERVICE TO THE COMMUNITY!

It's about the Giambra folks shoving a concept of a suburban HUB library, in a setting where it won't work. Even the new plans for the city stress that we build on our assets in each neighborhood, rather than closing everything up.

By design, these libraries belong to the people. I suggest you read up on the Buffalo & Erie County PUBLIC library policies and educate yourself as to why this proposal is wrong for this and other communities in Erie county.

BTW-- I find your name calling and reference to "urban terror" offensive and sad. We have suffered personal pain at the hands of terrorism. How dare you speak this way to folks on this board with that type of language.

You need to take a break and do some soul searching, neighbor.

BF

[WNYresident]

I'm as cheap as the rest of them and looking at the situation as we are open mindedly (ha), at this point and time it's cheaper to keep they have. I dont use libraries seeing i can afford internet access at home or a book store.

This is what happens in buffalo, too many people think they know what is best for the community without looking at acutal facts.

I see now issue with using community money for goodies. Parks, libraries, some community based tourism spiffs etc. BUT, over spending for any of that when the community as a whole can't afford it is stupid.

In this case the moron that came up with spending $4,000,000 to save money.

THey better have some facts that show it's going to save money and just not some piece of paper they paid for as a "Study" that just says go build a new one. I want cold hard facts.

Electric bills, gas bills, true needed maintance bills, insurance cost and while we are at it, any employees that need to go if not needed.

We then compare the new library running cost as a estimate and we can use a suburb library to get an idea seeing they are newer?

We also look at what will be done with the old buildings and if the elected officials try to patronize those building with some hair brain idea.

basicly we just look at our return on investment. If it's a couple of hundred years it's wrong, if we show a savings within 3 to 6 years then it's worth it. I already know the answer so i dont know why they are pushing a new library.

I dont think grump or sbguy relize how low cost the two libraries are to run as they are. They seem small but i dont know the insulation quality reguarding heating or how much acutual maintance is.

Issue we have in state/local goverment is puppetry. Developers/Union want things and use politicians help them along. I bet there some happy developer that would love to build a $4,000,000 building.

I notice people in this thread get unfocused and start argueing the wrong set of facts. It's all dollars and sense. Aparently common sense get's thrown out the window.

I'll get off my soap box now :)

[buffalofamily]

Contact the Library Director:

Michael C. Mahaney, Director
Buffalo & Erie County Public Library
1 Lafayette Square
Buffalo, NY 14203

He may have the answers. I have not been able to get the stats from him, but you could try.

BF

PS He's looking for imput, so you could write him and express your opinion that we the public want some numbers and hard facts...

[Allyssa]

It's all dollars and sense.

You're absolutly right WNYresident, and we're in this to keep the PUBLIC libraries accessable to the PUBLIC and not what's socially acceptable for the political officials to spend millions.

As well, those who don't show an interest in utilizing these public services are the ones keeping the 'spun-off' agruement going. Sure, it's one thing to say "I don't like that idea..." so on - so forth, but it's another to resort to name calling and spout "terror" by the ones who don't innicially care about the situation in the first place. Why are they spinning their wheels on something they don't care about?

BTW- The politicians are only pushing as hard as they can because this is an election year and the photo-op would make them look good for campaigning.

sbGUY27,
We have mentioned on this site, as well as to the Library Board about "fixing up" what we have now. See, if you were really concerned on this issue, you'd have attended the public meetings in front of the library board to hear us make that request!!!


You are of the type that thinks it is truly yours.
Correction: We are the type that thinks a public library belongs to the people.

[Allyssa]

Only I have the right too say when and where a library goes up.

Correction Again: the people have the right to say when and where a library goes up.

Their policy clearly states that the people have to mutually agree ... listen now... that a new library is needed in a community.

Now, that doesn't mean it's an open invitation for the politicians to come riding in on their white horses waving money like a sword, and have the power to say 'this is something we're going to do... like it or not.'

The people in a communtiy have to agree that a new building is NEEDED... not wanted.

There is where I think you're becoming confused, there's a difference between needing a new library and wanting one.

North Jefferson area got a new library because it was needed, the former building was falling apart... this is not the case with Dudley and Caz.

[buffalofamily]

Yes, Allissa. It's a case of government waste. If Dudley and caz were so bad, they should be replaced, but one for one. Instead of spending $2.5 million to $4.0+ million, they could set aside small budget to fix up what we have.

Buffalofamily :)

[WNYresident]

Your missing the point. If they set aside a small budget, thats less money they get to screw around with.

Would a developer rather do $50,000 worth of maintance or build a $2 to $4 mil library?

It's really time the complete picture is shown to the residents and how the special interest groups are milking the tax payer. Oh this includes a few developers too. Not all, everyone agrees we need things built, the question is, exactly how much building and where.

[Allyssa]

I found a sign the B&ECPL can use for the new Library in South Buffalo

[Allyssa]

Article pulled from the East Aurora Advertiser

MARILLA OFFICIALS: DON"T CLOSE OUR LIBRARY
BY PAT McDONNELL August 28, 2003

The Marilla Town Board has showed no interest in closing the Marilla Free Library in order to open a larger regional library. Erie County Executive Joel A. Giambra said if smaller libraries were closed, the county would build a new, bigger modern library. Giambra was not specific about where this proposed new library would be built, or in what town.

"As our library buildings have aged, it has become more and more apparent that without action, our existing structure is destined to become obsolete," he wrote Supervisor John Foss in a June 6 letter. He encouraged Marilla officials to visit some of the more modern libraries in the Erie County system, such as Clarence, Collins and Audubon. "You'll see firsthand how communities have designed unique buildings that met their constituent's demands for full service, modern libraries," Giambra wrote.

Foss remained unconvinced at the August 11 Town Board meeting, saying only that "we just renovated" the Marilla Free Library.

++++++++++++++++

I guess there are others outside of South Buffalo that don't like the library consolidation proposals as well.

[morphinebrian]

I'm really in favor of more librabires, but it just seems more cost efficient to rent from our plentiful empty storefronts. Librabies need not be pretty, only containing needed content. Especially in an economy like this, we need more access to the internet to people who cannot afford a computer. Library services are being used more and more by the public due to our poor economy. I would rather have our libraries rent, instead of going through the backdoor process of giving contracts for building a new library out to political contributors. Maybe we would be able to spend that money on books, computers, and free library courses, than in political contributors pockets.

[WNYresident]

Renting would be fine but if you noticed the major developers are connected to the system.. We be rented to the point of being cheaper to build. If we built a library and went to a correct bidding method and only had build what is smart, it would be cheaper for us.

It's still cheaper to keep what we have enless the size of the library is the issue. It's odd how people are not complaining we need a new library but the library board wants to build one. Why don't they listen and do waht the people want? Lets get a full payroll summary of every employees in the library system.

We'll form a board of residents and fire each and everyone we do not need. We them will look over all the suppliers of products we purchase for the libraries and confirm we are getting the best deals in general.. Once we realize the savings from that we'll talk about a new library. I see non-profits doing muych better than most goverment ran organizations.

[Allyssa]

The sq feet of caz is about 9,000 and about the same for Dudley. The proposed site is estimated to be only 12,000 sq ft. that's far less space per sq foot than the two combined.

I use this calculation of the two branches combined because the "merging" (as the politicians call it) of the two comes out to be less. Less book space, less floor space, less computer space, less sitting space. Less computers, less books, less resourses and so on.

Perhaps, if the proposal comes out as equal to that of the two branches combined, I may give the notion a second thought. But it is the case of: more for less. More money for less of a product that isn't even needed, because what we have here is sufficient enough for the people it services.

Morph,
All of the branches have equal opportunity system-wide to the on-line world, technology isn't a factor. Between the two branches there are about 30 computers all wired for internet access. but that amount of computer won't be set up in the new proposed branch because it will lack the space.

And you're right, the one's in need of the these valuable resourses most are the financially challenged residents.

[Allyssa]

Q: Would the new library be larger?

A: NO. Cazenovia and Dudley = 15,662 sq. ft. vs. the proposed 12,000. Cazenovia alone is the 5th. largest in 15 Buffalo libraries: LARGER than 3 out of 4 NEW suburban ones.

:D Just the facts!

[buffalofamily]

Thanks,

That's what the Save Our Libraries group has been doing all along. Giving the TRUE facts based on the public records. The Professional politicians and Library Board refuses to reveal the operating costs of the existing branches, so we, the taxpayers, can make an educated opinion about this proposal.

Still:

No Location

No Blueprints

No Plans on paper

No True Public Hearings (recorded for the public record)

No answers on how spending $2.5 - $4.0 million will save money.

No reason given on why this plan has resurfaced after being totally rejected by all of WNY in 2000.

Government waste, lies and deception at it's worst is what is going on with the BECPL board and politicians.

BF

[buffalofamily]

FINALLY,

A Ch. 2 report stated that the BECPL said that the operating cost oc Caz and Dudley combined is $500,000 a year.

No breakdown of specific costs.

No ststement on how much a new library consolidated would cost per year to operate.

Stay Tuned,

BF

[WNYresident]

Now we need to know payroll percentage out of the 500,000 a year

[Unregistered]

It should be broken down:

Actual payroll-Some staff moves to different locations. The payroll needs to be just hours spent staffing Caz & Dudley only.

Utilities-Electric, Gas, Phone

Stocking of materials-Books, Magazines, Cd's, movies etc.

Less the revenue generated at each location (late fees add up fast with the huge increase)

[Unregistered]

Does anyone know how to file a freedom of infromation suit?

Please reply here.

Thank you!

[buffalofamily]

We are working on getting more information. Any help is welcome. The library officials are dancing around ALL the important questions.

BF

[Unregistered]

Well Folks,

Now they have told us if the new one is built, we will gain 1 more hour of service.

WOW! Give up 2 libraries to gain only one more hour a week of library hour. The two South buffalo libraries offer 54 hours a week in combination. The library is telling us to Expect 55 hours.

UGGGGG!

[morphinebrian]

4 million dollars for an hour of service...what a deal

[WNYresident]

It's our local goverment! That's cheap for an extra hour.

[Unregistered]

It's an awful "deal". A small reinvestment in libraries and improved service could be a start of better things to come to WNY. Libaraies serve Buffalo neighborhoods very well. It's not broke, so don't fix it!

[Curmudgeon]

I can't believe this thread is still alive...

LONG LIVE OUR SPECIAL INTERESTS!!!

iId like to direct you to my "buggy whip craftsmen guild" thread I've started. We are advocating the prohibition of automobiles so we can restore to buggy whip manaufacturing art to it's former status in society. Please join us! It's a noble cause!

[Allyssa]

oh, do tell more... please

I'd be more than happy to support your worthy cause, just state all of the reasons why this type of production needs saving. Now, I'm not saying 100% that many more here will beleive this is something worth time and effort, but hey... you never know.

Secondly, there isn't a "banning" of something in order to save the libraries... The people aren't boycotting retail chains like Media Play or Amazon (dot) com as an opposition to keeping the libraries open.

as per your example: "We are advocating the prohibition of automobiles so we can restore to buggy whip manaufacturing art to it's former status in society."

[Unregistered]

QUOTE from CHUMM "I can't believe this thread is still alive..."

Yep, it's alive and well. It's no special interest, it is all our libraries that belong to all residents of Erie County.

Hey Crummnin, Where do you reside? If you are not a resident of Erie County, Butt out of the conversation.


JG

[Unregistered]

A rally is being held today 9/16/03 in front of the DUDLEY branch library on South Park Avenue at 4:30 to 5:30 PM.

Show your support for your local branch libraries! Media is welcome!

LMNO

[TVWriter]

Hello,

I am very new to this forum and was directed to this thread via another one within this forum. I have read each post and I am really trying to see both sides of the issue and understand the divide in opinion.

My library is the Crane Library (on Elmwood Ave). With all due respect the library (the Crane Library that is) is really not my first choice to obtain information or reading materials from. It is really in need of a revamp and better stocked shelves. In all honesty my high school library (Kenmore East High School in the Town of Tonawanda) was a far better resource.

Now, I am not knocking the Crane Library because A library is better than NO library.. I am just wondering wondering where the "middle ground" is.

Is it better to save the current libraries or consolidate and better a future library? It really is a tough call. I havent read one post that focuses on the technology era we are in and how that effects the necessity of a library.

Interesting issue, glad I read about it.

[Allyssa]

TVWriter,

I hadn't intended for the post on your interest thread to be directed to you. I posted the message to another user ("sbGUY") but I'm glad you dropped by this thread and share your thoughts.

and since you did ask about the 'middle ground' of the library debate... then I should say in all fairness that there is no middleground. It's called the "take it or leave it" plan.

which means, If the residents accept the consolidation proposal headed up by the County Executive then both South Buffalo Branches will be shut down and a new library will built to service both seperate communities.

Should the people disagree with the plan, then it will be taken to another location in the city. There is $2.5 million dollars at stake only for building one new library... not a single penny of that amount can be used to renovate, revamp or expaned any branch... it's a strict earmark for just construction.

the proposal isn't about construction anything "new" per-say, it's more presented as a form of consolidating the existing branches of Erie County in half; leaving the residents all throughout with less library services in the long run.

anyway, there's a billion more things I can confess on the issue, and that's why the thread is still thriving here on the boards.

[PromoTheRobot]

Will someone please save ME?

Get me out of this dark little place they have me in. The only thing I have is a computer near by so I'm sending out this S.O.S.

Pleeaaase!!!

[Unregistered]

I saw on the tv news last night that about 85 South Buffalo Residents had a Rally in front of the Dudley South Park Library.

Dosen't look like a crowd that wants to give up library services in two neighborhoods.

A man spoke and said that they aren't saving money due to the expenses of land, tearing down buildings and spending two and a half million dollars. He also stated that a petition drive already has got 2,250 signatures, and is an ongoing petition drive in the area affected.

MM

[buffalofamily]

He is correct when he says that it dosen't save money, because of the construction and property needed to do such a project.

Land alone according to the BECPL policy states:

"Recommendations vary.

A minimum of 1 to 3 acres was recommended at Managing Library Building Projects, the LAMA Preconference to the ALA Annual Conference in San Francisco, CA (2001)."

How many businesses and/or residental lots would have to be purchased?

Who pays the tab??? Taxpayers do!

85 people had a rally in front of Dudley on Tuesday and thousands have said NO!

Buffalofamily

[WNYresident]

But the developers make the money!!! Thats the name of the game.

[TVWriter]

Just a question here... (please understand I am just learning of this issue and have not yet read enough to fully know all the ins and outs of the situation)

How can the money be earmarked with such unflexibality? Why can it ONLY be used for a new library or nothing? What is the point of have a system of "checks and balances" with gov. funds if there is dictation and no democracy?

Perhaps I have missed a major chunk of information but that is puzzling to me.

Thanks for any insight.

[Allyssa]

How can the money be earmarked with such unflexibality?
++Because the politicians are pushing this plan.

Why can it ONLY be used for a new library or nothing?
++Because the politicians are pushing this plan.

What is the point of have a system of "checks and balances" with gov. funds if there is dictation and no democracy?
++Because the politicians are pushing this plan.

and just like what 'WNYresident' said, the developers make the money!!! That's the name of the game.

It's all about political pull and photo-ops in this election year. The reason why your Crane branch appears to be lacking in resources is just the same with our South Buffalo Branches... the B&ECPL want it to look as if a new library is need by decreasing the amount of available materials.

The Tonawanda's were presented this 'two for one' proposal as well and refused. The people here (in south buffalo) are doing just the same... but for some reason we're being ignored. I'm under the impression that the County Exe. is trying too hard to make this project work... and will stop at nothing to make South Buffalo the example of his questionable consolidation plans.

[buffalofamily]

South Buffalo residents continue to be ignored by the library officials. The politicians are wavering a little, but have not acted enough to get answers to all the questions posed.

BUFFAM

[Allyssa]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20030919/1050964.asp

I'm going to pick apart this article from the Buffalo News.

Libraries in the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library system expect to spend 3 percent more next year to operate
hmm, I wonder if it's to compinsate the 3% of wasteful spending that's been done this year on bugus fliers to help support the proposed library in South Buffalo.

In other business, six members of the community spoke to the board about plans to close two South Buffalo library branches - Cazenovia and Dudley - and open a new facility in the area.
The wording is all wrong... six people were present, yes. But FIVE of them spoke out in opposition to the plan... and only one expressed a favoring to building the new branch.

(see how they have the media exposing "half-truthes" to the public?)

"The best-used libraries are easy to get to for residents,"
This woman was one opposed and said much more about the residential need for libraries in the two seperate nieghborhoods.

Another quote:
. "People want this new library," she said, holding petitions. "I've got a lot of kids who have signed these things; they want this new library."
Reffereing to the "petitions" she was holding... these are 'Support the new library' slips that are available within the Cazenovia Branch.

See, the library staff at each branch can't express their personal opinions of the proposal, but they (the workers) are looking for "volunteers" to support the new plan.

And what's with the professional posed picture of Michael Mahaney in the article? I was wondering if the proposal is about him. The Buffalo News could have easily sent someone to either one of the branches for a simple snap-shot of the buildings for this story.

[Co.OfEeerie....]

"See, the library staff at each branch can't express their personal opinions of the proposal, but they (the workers) are looking for "volunteers" to support the new plan. "

Why on earth would they express their ' personal opinions" on a plan?

Don't forget, they are getting the same 80% retirement package and other goodies that the rest of the county workers are getting.

They're looking for volunteers to support a plan?

Well duh...

I can't even believe this thread is still going!

[Allyssa]

A... This thread contains information about an issue that is on-going, why wouldn't it continue? Are we expected to stop informing the public on something while it is still developing?

B... The library staff claims to having a "neutral" status where the project is concerned and can not speak on behalf of thier own opinions - which has to do with their work-place (government or not), but the neutral state changes when they take a side and look for other supporters.

It's more like "tipping the scales" on something they claim to be neutral about.

[buffalofamily]

Well duh...



Why on earth would they express their ' personal opinions" on a plan?

Well, maybe they are not aware that their jobs are in jepordy. At first they were promised that if the branches were consolidated, they would all have a job at the new location.
This is no longer the case. Now it's not clear if they will keep these employees.

WELL DUH... They are siding with a plan that will help cut many of their jobs, and they don't even really understand that.

BF

[Curmudgeon]

At first they were promised that if the branches were consolidated, they would all have a job at the new location. This is no longer the case. Now it's not clear if they will keep these employees.

This is a good thing. This is why we need consolidation!

[Allyssa]

This is why we need consolidation!
You know what needs consolidating more than libraries?
The amount of "rent-to-own" franchises... it's a sure and visible sign that a community is going to the dogs when important neighborhood services are cut and over-priced retail chains move in.

Another sad sight of South Buffalo... the third "rent to own" is gearing to open within a four block margin.

How can a library building rank lower than a (legal) rib-off store, Crum?

[Curmudgeon]

The amount of "rent-to-own" franchises... it's a sure and visible sign that a community is going to the dogs when important neighborhood services are cut and over-priced retail chains move in

You are absolutely correct in observing that the rent-to-own franchises that are moving in are signs the neighborhood is in decline. Don't forget the check-cashing places too.

People are moving out of your neighborhood because the economy sucks, not because they don't have a library. Why does the economy suck? because the cost of services is too high relative to other places and the taxes for all these services are driving local businesses and residents away.

But you already know that.

And when you have a neighborhood in decline, you have lower-income people moving in who can now afford what they could not afford before - the cost of renting/purchasing residences in your area. Andwith that comes "rent to own" places. I've got news for you - you will now see higher crime and more people leaving as a result of this. But hey, you'll still have a library!


How can a library building rank lower than a (legal) rib-off store, Crum?

Private business is free to open wherver they like and there is no "ranking" of the two - you are attempting to compare "cause" and "effect". That is not logical.

[Allyssa]

because the cost of services is too high relative to other places and the taxes for all these services are driving local businesses and residents away. Normally this would be true, but the B&ECPL has met their budget for 2004... which means the cost of funding library services hasn't increased for next year.


you will now see higher crime and more people leaving as a result of this. A few sections of the area is already changing, but for the most part, people are still fighting back to keep the neighborhood a decent place to live. And keeping these two Libraries open is one more thing to add to the "positiveness" of South Buffalo.


you are attempting to compare "cause" and "effect". That is not logical. Yes, I know comparing apples and oranges doesn't always match up... but when you mix them together it's the start of a fruit salad. Private business (of any kind), neighborhood services, police patrol, citizen responsibitly and so on all add up to a really "sweet" community... as long as it's done together. And logically, once things start to be removed you'll soon have a bowl of a whole lot of nothing.

[Curmudgeon]

Normally this would be true, but the B&ECPL has met their budget for 2004... which means the cost of funding library services hasn't increased for next year.

This means that the budget is as absurdly high this year as it was last year.

A few sections of the area is already changing, but for the most part, people are still fighting back to keep the neighborhood a decent place to live.

That's what people used to say in my old neighborhood (Bailey) as it rapidly turned into a complete ghetto. I'd like to hear what you have to say 3 years fom now.

Yes, I know comparing apples and oranges doesn't always match up... but when you mix them together it's the start of a fruit salad. Private business (of any kind), neighborhood services, police patrol, citizen responsibitly and so on all add up to a really "sweet" community... as long as it's done together. And logically, once things start to be removed you'll soon have a bowl of a whole lot of nothing.

The great thing about a statement like that is it removes the ability to quantify or hold anyone responsible for anything. How do you benchmark "sweet"? Everything's going to pot and you're sitting there singing "Kumbaya"....

[Allyssa]

This means that the budget is as absurdly high this year as it was last year.

Not really, it just means it hasn't increased. Had I of said it was sort on budgeting for 04, like the Buffalo school system... then you can say it's "absurdly high", but meeting a budget means everything stayed the same. Why, if they're even with this year would they cut services, close branches, let staff go all through Erie County?

Think about this... What would be the main purpose of having a huge surplus and flip over to say they're looking to consolidate the libraries to save money? Where will the extra money go if there is less of everything?

I don't know if you know this, but libraries aren't in the business to "make a profit" like a Wal*Mart. There aren't CEO's out to get rich on what it makes.


That's what people used to say in my old neighborhood (Bailey) as it rapidly turned into a complete ghetto. See, I know all too well what happened with Bailey... so I can see the freight train hauling in to South Buffalo. I'm not blind and I'm not deaf, and there are ways of stopping a running locomotive, unless there are conductors like you steering us into a negative disaster.

Oh yes, I almost forgot... neighborhood services and everything else intended as good is all so very bad in your book.


Everything's going to pot and you're sitting there singing "Kumbaya"....
APeace my brotherA

[Curmudgeon]

Where will the extra money go if there is less of everything?

It would stay in the taxpayers wallets, where it rightly belongs.

I don't know if you know this, but libraries aren't in the business to "make a profit" like a Wal*Mart.

Well then, I guess that means we can't responsibly manage them and how they spend their money....

See, I know all too well what happened with Bailey...
I guess you didn't learn your lesson the first time. You'll keep on doing the same things the same way and that train will run over you again. That train is the "free market express" and you don't have a ticket. I suggest you buy one!


Oh yes, I almost forgot... neighborhood services and everything else intended as good is all so very bad in your book.

Hey, I love services, just as long as they don't bankrupt my city!

[buffalofamily]

Let's stop this plan that spends multi-millions of our tax money on wasteful construction,

It's simple--We have existing libraries that are only a very small portion of the entire county budget. In fact, libraries are about 2% of the budget in Erie County.

Starting to close libraries 2 for one, with no proof of any savings to "WE THE PEOPLE" in Erie county, is a scandal.

The saving library people keep asking for any proof of savings, and none has yet been produced by the County Exec on down to the library board.

Adding Millions to the budget is what construction would do.

BF

[WNYresident]

Yes i can agree this library thing is just BS now enless we can see acutal numbers. Theres just some developer than wants to profiteer from the building of the new library plain and simple IF the expenses of payroll are not cut we are just building a new building not trimming cost as we should.

I would say leave the libraries and cut thier salaries down.. the politicians that is. :)

[Allyssa]

just as long as they don't bankrupt my city!

Who's city?

Sounds like you're having a bit trouble of letting go of the things you left behind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you did move away from Buffalo, right?

[Allyssa]

Where will the extra money go if there is less of everything?
And
It would stay in the taxpayers wallets, where it rightly belongs.
The library has met their budget; which means nothing lost-nothing gained. They will still collect the same amount in taxes, over-due charges and whatever else that brings in money. The B&ECPL hasn't said that there would be an immediate notice in lowered property taxes if construction is done. By the time there's a decrease seen, inflation will have everything else jacked up too high to even notice a "savings".

I guess you didn't learn your lesson the first time. What lesson might that be, the lessons in leaving?
That's what happened, I think it was reffered to as "the great white flight".

That train is the "free market express"
So then, by all means tell me how it is that the Bailey Avenue area isn't as thriving as what's going on in the burbs?

Hey, I love services as long as they don't include what's good for the people... right?

[buffalofamily]

With this plan the HUGE expanded hours of library operation amount to 1 more hour a week. OH MY! Give up two successful libraries for one extra hour a week and less access.

Wake up WNY !

BF

[WNYresident]

Which developer would build this new library? Have we seen the blueprints or estimate in writing? If you notice most of hte times most goverment projects are quoted undercost to get the stuff passed though, then all the sudden, POW you see cost over runs.

[Allyssa]

Nothing has been said as to whom the developer is, nor have blueprints or estimates been made available.


If you notice most of hte times most goverment projects are quoted undercost to get the stuff passed though, then all the sudden, POW you see cost over runs. or our biggest fear... the plans are shortened to something smaller than what was originally planned.

They can easily decide funding isn't completely there and construct an 8,000 sqaure foot library compared to the first projection of 12,000 and the residents will have even less than the 15,000 sq. ft we already have between the two branches.

[buffalofamily]

Allyssa states:


They can easily decide funding isn't completely there and construct an 8,000 sqaure foot library compared to the first projection of 12,000 and the residents will have even less than the 15,000 sq. ft we already have between the two branches.

She is correct. In fact, Cazenovia is the 5th. largest library in Buffalo.

We would lose a meeting room too, and access in two neighborhoods.

STILL NO PROOF IT COULD EVER SAVE MONEY

BF

[buffalofamily]

As parents all over Buffalo see the value of schools close to home, we also need to ensure that our 15 neighborhood libraries in Buffalo are kept intact and accessible to our school children. A plan that wastes millions of taxpayer dollars on construction of “hub” libraries, while closing successful branches that the children of our city now easily walk to is again in the works. Remember that each new library would mean the closing of two in communities that need it the most. We heard the outcry 2000 when citizens of Buffalo and Erie County said NO to library consolidation. Library services are in danger of being eliminated all over Buffalo.

We all witnessed first hand, the closing of school libraries when a budget crunch hit the system. A closed library in the school building left the children with one alternative, the public library branches in our city. Talking to children, parents and guardians from all over the area and in my South Buffalo community, I found the message from them loud and clear. “Don’t close our library” was repeated over and over. “We need these libraries now more than ever”, many have stated, because of higher standards expected of our students. Many of the parents of children in Buffalo are also returning to school or seeking further knowledge in a tough economy, are served well by libraries close to home. Let’s not forget those parents who have taken the choice of homeschooling or other educational alternatives for one or more of their children in our school district. The local library provides all with access to education with the services found there.

Having excellent schools close to home, like libraries, should be a priority in the City of Buffalo. As a lifelong Buffalonian, I value the livable and accessible area that I choose to live in. If Buffalo is to survive, excellent choices need to be given to residents in the form of neighborhood schools, libraries, recreation, housing and other quality of life services. We the people of Buffalo need a stable and safe environment for all who choose to live here. I ask the entire community to help in any way it can by supporting the effort to “Save our Libraries” and support more neighborhood school opportunities for all residents. We all have a responsibility to keep educational resources accessible to the people of Erie County.

BF

[buffalofamily]

Dan Ward position on libraries:

"I want to bring back jobs, reform our government, and revive our Queen City. Our area has been malingering in mediocrity for too long, and many of our fellow citizens have become discouraged by the same tired politics and quick fixes."

"I stand with you in your opposition to closing down libraries in South Buffalo and support your petition drive. Joel Giambra has the wrong approach to regionalism. His "top-down" method overlooks many important services in neighborhoods and his style neglects the valid concerns of the community. Closing down libraries is the wrong way to go. In my many years of public service, I have always listened and given voice to neighborhood issues."

[Curmudgeon]

...In other words, Dan won't actually change anything. All it takes is one special interest group to voice opinion to a reform and Dan won't implement that reform. Heaven forbid he use a "top-down approach"! He wouldn't want to offend anyone - except the taxpayer......

Dan "more of the same" Ward - 2003!

[Allyssa]

All it takes is one special interest group to voice opinion to a reform and Dan won't implement that reform.

You keep implying that the “save our Libraries” people is a special interest group; why is that? This group’s concentration is to bring awareness to the residents of Buffalo on an issue that contains much controversy within the County Executive’s consolidation offer. This organization is much different than the “save the whales” committee; (though I can’t disregard their efforts) the libraries are a service to the community offering information and knowledge to the people. The outspoken residents are not asking for funding to free Willie or to find Nemo.


Dan "more of the same" Ward - 2003!
Dan Ward’s own words: QUOTE:“I stand with you in your opposition to closing down libraries in South Buffalo and support your petition drive. Joel Giambra has the wrong approach to regionalism. His "top-down" method overlooks many important services in neighborhoods and his style neglects the valid concerns of the community.”

So, in other words... it doesn’t sound like Ward is looking to shut down any neighborhood libraries to me ...compared to Giambra’s proposal that takes away from the Buffalo communities.

[Curmudgeon]

Dan Ward won't shut down anything! and the exodus of jobs and young people will accelerate, as it has been for the last 10 years at least! I guess you enjoy living in a welfare state. Continue squandering your future to keep your "services" today...

[sbGUY27]

Sounds like Ward will say what you want to hear in order to sway your vote. Notice that he is only speaking out against policy that has created a stir with some groups. That is all I have heard from ward. I wouldn't belive him. Remember what martino said to your group ! You voted for her because of it. Don't think that Ward dosen't know that. :(

[Allyssa]

Continue squandering your future to keep your "services" today...

The only squandering I see going on is Giambra looking to spend millions of dollars on something that isn't needed in this community.

What do you suppose we do, Crum? Sit back and allow the elected officials take away things that are of meaning to improve the lives and communities of our area? Would it just be easier for us to simply roll over and play dead because they beleive their power over-rides the best interest of the average/ ordinary citizens they were elected to support?

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not for any new libraries AND I'm for closing half of the existing ones right now.

You can do one of two things: Fix the expenditure problem now, or wait until the problem gets worse and then fix the expenditure problem. I'm all for a control board taking over the county as well. Then you can have a group of people take away your right to self-governance because you wern't willing to govern yourself responsibly. That is the only recourse for people like yourself. A terrible thing for sure and an affront to democracy, but there is no other way. If Ward gets elected, that is a sure sign the people of Erie county have absolutely no self-control or sense of responsibility and the state should come in and install a control board. Then we won't have to listen the the steady drone of "neighborhood groups" and "special interests" who are driving the region right off the cliff...

[Allyssa]

Then we won't have to listen the the steady drone of "neighborhood groups" and "special interests" who are driving the region right off the cliff...
How is preventing the spending of millions of dollars on ONE building driving the region off a cliff? If anything, I think it would be the other way around. I thought wasteful spending was considered a bad thing for an economy.

Then you can have a group of people take away your right to self-governance because you wern't willing to govern yourself responsibly.
If anything, it's the goverment officials that are being unresponsible in this case. I don't see the connection on how a proposal from political official pegs me as fault to lacking "self-governing". I didn't come up with the $2.5 million dollar consolidation plan nor should I feel the need to support it.

Fix the expenditure problem now
What do you think we're trying to do? We are trying to prevent wasteful spending at the hands of our County Executive. Other areas have turned down this proposal for the same reasons we're fight against it. It's a fleecing of taxpayers money to take millions of dollars and earmark it for one building in a neighborhood that doesn't need it. We have two that are successful the way they are.

I'm not for any new libraries AND I'm for closing half of the existing ones right now.
Why is that? Are you for "dumbing down" society too? Just because people aren't born smart doesn't mean they should be disqualify from learning and excelling their minds through reading.

FYI, not everyone is a natural born "brainiac". There are many people; young and old whom use the libraries almost daily. Children for reports and projects, parents who might be homeschooling their children, adults that have decided and/or students currently attending college. People need these resources available and just because you don't have a need for them doesn't mean they should be banished.

[Curmudgeon]

There might be some text in the big empty space above this post, but I can't say for sure because I'm red/green colorblind...

[buffalofamily]

Then we won't have to listen the the steady drone of "neighborhood groups" and "special interests" who are driving the region right off the cliff...
How is preventing the spending of millions of dollars on ONE building driving the region off a cliff? If anything, I think it would be the other way around. I thought wasteful spending was considered a bad thing for an economy.

Then you can have a group of people take away your right to self-governance because you wern't willing to govern yourself responsibly.
If anything, it's the goverment officials that are being unresponsible in this case. I don't see the connection on how a proposal from political official pegs me as fault to lacking "self-governing". I didn't come up with the $2.5 million dollar consolidation plan nor should I feel the need to support it.

Fix the expenditure problem now
What do you think we're trying to do? We are trying to prevent wasteful spending at the hands of our County Executive. Other areas have turned down this proposal for the same reasons we're fight against it. It's a fleecing of taxpayers money to take millions of dollars and earmark it for one building in a neighborhood that doesn't need it. We have two that are successful the way they are.

I'm not for any new libraries AND I'm for closing half of the existing ones right now.
Why is that? Are you for "dumbing down" society too? Just because people aren't born smart doesn't mean they should be disqualify from learning and excelling their minds through reading.

FYI, not everyone is a natural born "brainiac". There are many people; young and old whom use the libraries almost daily. Children for reports and projects, parents who might be homeschooling their children, adults that have decided and/or students currently attending college. People need these resources available and just because you don't have a need for them doesn't mean they should be banished.


HOPE THAT HELPS

[buffalofamily]

The "Save our Libraries" is not a special interest group. If we had library employees joining the fight to save the libraries, it would border on "special interest".

The employees don't understand that many of them will get the AX when libraries close. Giambea is making then tie the noose for themselves.

BF

[Allyssa]

Thanks Buff Fam for reposting.

Crum,
I sincerely apologize, and I'll make a personal note to use the standard black text in post replies to you.

[Curmudgeon]

As I said before, I’m not really into building a new library. It seems like that tactic is being used to smooth over resistance to library consolidation, but it is obviously not working with you people. So I’d say just close half of them and don’t even bother building new ones at all.

You ARE a special interest. Don’t kid yourself. You could pick ANY social-programs issue (welfare, bussing, etc..) and portray your support of your chosen program as “good for the whole community”. It’s all the same thing. Excess library expenditures are REALLY annoying considering there is such a wealth of information sources out there in 2003 that weren’t there in 1983.

The consultants came in and said the Erie County spends an absurd amount of money on its system compared to the rest of the country and gave a list of solutions to fix the problem. One of these problems was entirely TOO MANY library branches.

Why don’t you acknowledge that fact? Why are you so irresponsible? Is this how you run your household finances? Why don’t you seem to care about the economic effect of your position on the community? Not one library supporter here was even discussed the efficiency of the library system and compared it to other cities. It’s like it’s a non-issue for you. You just don’t care. It’s somebody else’s money and you want to continue spending it. For every library person there’s a “two-cops-in-car” person and a “save HEAP” person and a “keep-my-firehouse” person and a “save-my-city-job” person and on and on and on. All these people are as self-righteous as all of you. I’d say give all of you a fixed amount of money, lock you all in a room, and let all of you fist-fight it out to see who gets what.

You and people who think like you are what is destroying WNY.

The employees don't understand that many of them will get the AX when libraries close. Giambea is making then tie the noose for themselves.
Thank god - we need a lot less public employees in WNY. I'll string the rope up myself...

[Allyssa]

Why don’t you seem to care about the economic effect of your position on the community? I care that millions of dollars is being used to construct one new building. Is it too difficult to understand that a ridiculous amount of money is going into one library branch; funds that can easily be distributed even throughout Erie County but are not?


It’s somebody else’s money and you want to continue spending it.
I am opposed, against, not in favor of, in opposition to, saying NO … to spending millions of dollars!!! I DO NOT feel it’s right to spend $2.5 million dollars on a new library that will result in closing two stable/successful branches in two different neighborhoods. And as I’ve said before, I’m not looking to spend money on something that isn’t needed. I think you missed the post that I said nothing at all is wrong with these two branches… and the little incidentals that are, the B&ECPL shouldn’t use their own lack in maintenance as the biggest excuse to build a new library with someone else’s money.


All these people are as self-righteous as all of you.
All of these people believe in the services they provide in the communities. Libraries open a world of knowledge to people in need of resources, less police officers on the streets means a higher crime rate, less firefighters/closed up firehouses means public safety… people’s lives are at stake!

Self-righteousness comes from the ones whom don’t care to understand a worthy cause because they’re “anti-everything” about things that don’t pertain entirely to them, their wants and their needs and etc. You are what’s called arrogant, ignorant and egotistical because you’re unwilling to accept anything that doesn’t coincide with everything you think, but heaven forbid there should be a threat to shut down a Wal-Mart!


Why are you so irresponsible?
You’re going to have to elaborate a little more on this question. I don’t see a connection as to me allegedly acting “irresponsibly”; I’m not the one looking to spend money foolishly.


Is this how you run your household finances?
Well, if you must know. The things that need to be paid are paid in a timely fashion. Corners are cut where they can be; techniques are accomplished to reduce some costs when applicable. Purchases are taken care of when necessity plays a part.

So with the library issue, there isn’t an essential need to construct a new branch, I see the new library as a form of wasteful spending.


You and people who think like you are what is destroying WNY.
People like us, whom aren’t afraid to stand up to the politicians and say “enough is enough” is destroying? People like us, that believe wasteful spending is a wrong thing is destroying WNY? People like us that protest public libraries as essential services to the community; are you saying that is destroying? Never mind the fact that a politician- the County Executive no less, is openly recommending wasteful spending in one area of the city to put up one new library and people like you are eating it up.

People like you buy into the sizzle without even looking at the steak... if it sounds good, then it must be, regardless to the fact that what they imply isn't always what you're going to get. Giambra is insinuating a proposal for the sound of a Grade A - prime cut of beef out on the grill, but are we really going to get what he says? I doubt it.

[Curmudgeon]

You seem to think that I want a new library. I couldn't care less. All I want to see is LESS libraries, LESS employees, and LESS money being spent.

Libraries open a world of knowledge to people in need of resources, less police officers on the streets means a higher crime rate, less firefighters/closed up firehouses means public safety… people’s lives are at stake!

Holy cow! you sure do seem to know a lot about effective public safety staffing levels! I'd swear you were a union representitive or something.
people’s lives are at stake! Please... cut the BS.


Never once in this thread have you admitted the the library system is an unbelieveably bloated and costly organization. and this is long before ONE NEW LIBRARY has been built. Why is that? because you just don't care. Because it's not your money.

I say make make each branches funding come 100% from the towns that they reside in and get rid of the county-level revenue stream. That would force some accountability on you people for sure...

[Allyssa]

Holy cow! you sure do seem to know a lot about effective public safety staffing levels! I'd swear you were a union representitive or something. people’s lives are at stake! Please... cut the BS. First of all... Where is the BS in firefighters & police officers saving lives??? I suppose the fires will just put themselves out and oh boy, the criminals can just arrest themselves with your way of thinking. It doesn't take a union representitive to think on the "worse case senerio" issues of life & death situations.


Never once in this thread have you admitted the the library system is an unbelieveably bloated and costly organization. Why should I admit to something that YOU want to hear?


I say make make each branches funding come 100% from the towns that they reside in and get rid of the county-level revenue stream. Funding does come the way you've suggested. The people in all the towns, villages and ect vote on issues such as this. Things get passed or not in "town boards" throughout Erie County...except for the city of Buffalo. Here in Buffalo, it seems the politicians make all of the proposals when it comes to the libraries. So, how would that make me accountable for something that doesn't include me? Buffalo's library board is makes all of the final decissions... and the people are expected to just go with it or stand up and fight against it.

In other words... You can't put me (and the group of library supporters) at fault for something that doesn't give us, the people of Buffalo the option to vote on.

And It doesn't make me an irresponsible resident because of the way Buffalo has the library board set up!!!

[Curmudgeon]

First of all... Where is the BS in firefighters & police officers saving lives??? I suppose the fires will just put themselves out and oh boy, the criminals can just arrest themselves with your way of thinking. It doesn't take a union representitive to think on the "worse case senerio" issues of life & death situations.

So if you hired twice as many cops, crime would drop twice as much? I'm sure if you asked the BPD, they'd tell you YES! Don't be foolish. We have too many cops & fiiremen and if we got rid of some, we'd still be as safe as we are now.


Why should I admit to something that YOU want to hear?
Because it's something you like to avoid - the truth.....


So, how would that make me accountable....
Funny, you don't seem to be accountable for anything. how convienent...

[Allyssa]

So, how would that make me accountable....
Funny, you don't seem to be accountable for anything. how convienent... Am I to be held accountable for how the B&ECPL board of trustees approves new proposals when I don't even have the option to vote on new projects?

How is it a matter of "convienences" to question why you think I am at fault because of the way the Buffalo Public library sets up their policies of library plans?


We have too many cops & fiiremen and if we got rid of some, we'd still be as safe as we are now. Until the next phase of consolidation takes place and so on... getting to the point where there isn't going to be anyone left to "get rid of".


Why should I admit to something that YOU want to hear?
Because it's something you like to avoid - the truth..... And what makes you so sure that what you want to hear is the truth?


So if you hired twice as many cops, crime would drop twice as much? Probably. If you have twice as many cows grazing in the feild, do you think you could make more money pasturizing milk?

oops, bad example... you'll come back at me with some hairbrained "milking the cash cow" theory. :p

[Curmudgeon]

Probably. If you have twice as many cows grazing in the feild, do you think you could make more money pasturizing milk?

You're making the assumption that crimes are being committed because there aren't enough cops and fires are burning out of control because we don't have enough firemen. I don't see any fires buring with no firemen there. Do you? Hello? What a silly analogy.



And what makes you so sure that what you want to hear is the truth?
You're like an alcoholoc who can barely stand up trying to tell me you don't have a problem, that I am the one with the problem.....



Until the next phase of consolidation takes place and so on... getting to the point where there isn't going to be anyone left to "get rid of".
Well, you certianly don't need police if there is no one to police! This is a town that has lost about half it's population recently. And, no, people aren't leaving because there aren't enough COPS, FIREMEN, or LIBRARIES! wake up.

[Allyssa]

And what makes you so sure that what you want to hear is the truth?
You're like an alcoholoc who can barely stand up trying to tell me you don't have a problem, that I am the one with the problem..... Now there's an intellegent response... Insinuating false information on the Internet (in this forum) about someone you don't know allegedly having an illness like alcoholism all because …you believe QUOTE: “That would force some accountability on you people for sure...”

Speak for yourself on the foolishness issue.

Accountablity that a politician is looking to spend $2.5 million dollars for one new Library in one community. You're right on the money there Crum!!! Because I don't think it's the right ideals in what's being proposed then I have a problem.... hmm, I wonder...

...nope, sorry... you're wrong!

[Curmudgeon]

Oh how silly. I never called you an alcoholic - I just compared your level of denial of reality to the extreme denail exibited by an alcoholic.
But you already knew that.
It's always easier portraying yourself as a victim of an alledged accusation that is not true than to respond in a coherant manner to direct questioning.

How many times do I have to tell you: I don't want a new library and I want to close half of the existing ones right now and fire half of the employees. Stop trying to assert that I want a new library.

[Allyssa]

Oh how silly. I never called you an alcoholic - I just compared your level of denial of reality to the extreme denail exibited by an alcoholic. I never claimed you said I was...

my words were QUOTE: "Insinuating false information on the Internet (in this forum) about someone you don't know allegedly having an illness like alcoholism."

YOUR QUOTE:
"You're like an alcoholoc who can barely stand up trying to tell me you don't have a problem, that I am the one with the problem....."


It's always easier portraying yourself as a victim of an alledged accusation that is not true than to respond in a coherant manner to direct questioning.I don't think you were questioning me directly in a coherant manner when you made a "statement" as you did.
BTW- Questions generally will end with a "?"


Stop trying to assert that I want a new library.
First of all, I accepted your theory that you don't want a new library built. I accept that you feel libraries are a waste or time, money and space. Secondly, you come back to this topic time and again, spouting ideas on whatever while lacking the concept that many other people don't want a new library either... at least not at the cost of losing two, not the way it's being presented to the people in South Buffalo.

Perhaps I could make the request that you stop asserting I should be held accountible because I don't beleive the County Executive is right in spending $2.5 million on one new library.

[Curmudgeon]

I accept that you feel libraries are a waste or time, money and space.
Absolutely not! But there ARE many in erie county that do happen to be a waste or time, money and space.



First of all, I accepted your theory that you don't want a new library built.
It's about time.

[WNYresident]

Kids i se4e you unfocused a little on this thread.. Lets try to do better on the next one :)

[buffalofamily]

This was the e-mail I got from one group that also understands the topic.

WHY SAVING THE LIBRARIES IS IMPORTANT .

1. We believe in "investing in education" - Our current public library system is our best source of equitable self-education, and a valuable resource to our school systems. How will our life-long learners that do not attend school continue to learn about environmental issues without accessible libraries? Where will our kids go to get homework help?

2. We believe in "containing sprawl & revitalizing our cities" - If Buffalo libraries are closed, our city neighborhoods will suffer a loss of quality of life, probably increasing flight from the city (sprawl) to the suburbs, to our rapidly disappearing rural landscape, or out of the area, shrinking our tax rolls. Enlightened communities around the country are becoming part of a pro-neighborhood, anti-sprawl movement, while our library system is proposing moving in the opposite direction!

3. We believe in "preserving neighborhoods" - With TWO Buffalo libraries slated to close to open ONE (and more threatened), neighborhoods are being threatened with a loss of quality of life. A library that is open is an asset to the community - a library that is closed is a detriment to the community.

4. We believe in "keeping libraries accessible" - Information is for everyone! Neighborhood libraries are outposts of information, like convenience stores - not superstores. If libraries are not accessible, their services do no good. According to WNY transportation experts, 40% of ADULTS in Buffalo have no access to cars. (That’s not counting all the children who don’t.)

5. We believe in "strengthening recycling" - Our current public library system is a model of reuse and recycling - millions of books are used hundreds, even thousands of times, then, even when they’re determined to be outdated, they are put up for sale to the public at nominal prices. That’s a hard act to follow

6. We believe in "fighting racism, sexism, ageism" - Our current public libraries are equal opportunity services open to all. If Buffalo libraries close, many in those neighborhoods will not get that equal opportunity to access information.

7. We believe in "Decentralization" - The Erie County Library Board’s (BECPL’s) move to close 2 neighborhood libraries is the opposite - centralization/consolidation.

8. We believe in "grassroots democracy" - All suburban libraries have their own boards, and contracts with the BECPL, so they make many of their own decisions. The Buffalo libraries already have lost that power, having no board or contract, and are often thought to be the "poor relations" of our suburban libraries.

9. We "support mass transit" - Most, if not all current libraries are on well-used public transportation routes and placed in residential neighborhoods where many walk or bike to them. Forcing people to get into cars to go to "centralized" libraries is unenvironmental.

10. We believe in "social & economic justice" - Many library users in Buffalo, including children, would not be able to access a library if their neighborhood library was closed. If they could, it would be an added financial burden many will not be able to afford - to get to and from a "centralized" library outside of their safe neighborhood. Instead of walking to their neighborhood library at NO COST, a family of 5 (2 parents, 1 child over 12, and 2 children 5- 11) would pay $11.60 round-trip for the privilege of visiting the library, (assuming they could get to it, since crosstown buses have been cut)! It is also an unfair double standard to replace suburban libraries ONE for ONE, while consolidating Buffalo libraries by closing TWO or more to open ONE


BF

[Allyssa]

Crum,


But there ARE many in erie county that do happen to be a waste or time, money and space. And how is it that you can come to this conclusion? It seems you're basing the complete status of the Erie County libraries on personal preference.

[buffalofamily]

A plan is now being pitched to West Falls and E. Aurora to close and spend $2.5 million. I hear they don't want it either.

We should be looking into improving services instead of wasting MILLIONS on each of these shoebox building proposals.

BF

[WNYresident]

THere a developer that will build that new library. I want to see numbers not words... Lets see how they came up with thier proposals to save money by spending 2.5 million.. WHat ever happned to 4 mil?

[Allyssa]

The amount of $4 million was the original price tag for the new library, soon after it was capped it at $2.5 million. However, at the latest library board meeting, in their transcripts it states that "upto" $2.5 million will be the spending price.

Within a year's time the price has fallen almost halfway from the intended $4 million. I wonder if the size of 12,000 square feet will decrease now that the construction price has come down.

The B&ECPL hasn't said much on anything else. They have been very tight-lipped as to the contractor or specific location, when this is intended to occur and the cost issue.

To give you all some idea of the shadiness that's happening. A "hushed" public meet was held on a Saturday with consideration to the West Falls/East Aurora library merger; I'm assuming many of the residents didn't know anything about the meeting until "after the fact".

This library consolidation issue is deception at it's worst!

[buffalofamily]

Allyssa stated:


This library consolidation issue is deception at it's worst!

It is that bad! Still no proof that this latest attempt at consolidating libraries will save money. It can't, because the construction involved.

BF

[buffalofamily]

The way our libraries operate is a success. The new model of operation is a more expensive way of conducting operations. What the proposal does is builds a more expensive library system that is sure to drive up taxes.

Leaving it like it is = Saving money

Consolidating & constructing = Spending HUGE amounts of money that will have to come out of our pocket.

BF

[buffalofamily]

South Buffalo residents paid a visit to the BEPCL Board of trustees meeting on Thursday 10/16/03. In addition, the "Save our Libraries" group was in force at the meeting. They now have over 2,700 petition signatures to save our libraries.

Saving libraries would keep 2 successful locations and SAVE TAXPAYERS millions of dollars that would be used for land, construction, domolition, fixtures, furniture and more. Consolidations would create a more expensive library system.

The library board and officials have provided NO proof of any savings through consolidations based on constrction. It's been a year into this process and still no costs of operating a new, but not better location have been given.

WOW! We have a plan with no plan on paper. All of WNY should demand some answers and be aware that ALL libraries are being threatend AGAIN, as they were in 2000.

Wake up WNY!

Buffalo Family

[buffalofamily]

Just say no to library consolidation. It's a waste of tax dollars on construction. If we need new libraries in areas that are underserved than build them one.

The deal Giambra is a bad one.

2,800 petition signatures and growing in South Buffalo neighborhoods!

BF

[buffalofamily]

http://www.speakupwny.com/article_519.shtml

[buffalofamily]

The proposed hub library would be smaller (Only 12,000 vs. 16,000sq.ft. for 2) Clarence library is 17,000sq.ft. for 20,000 people; South Buffalo will only get 12,000sq.ft. for over 40,000 people. Q. Fair deal? A. NO.

Hub: only one hour per week more of service (55 vs. 54 hrs.,7days/per week currently).

Hub: half the access: 1 site vs. 2 current sites with 2 meeting rooms, 2 sets references…

Hub: 1 less meeting room. Cazenovia has the largest meeting space in all 15 Buffalo libraries - 1250sq. ft. Cazenovia’s can be divided into 2 spaces, and Dudley’s meeting room can seat 50.
Hub would cost more taxes and provide less service: BECPL would have to pay $1000’s for stocking and furnishing; Buffalo would have to pay at least 100’s of $1000’s for land acquisition, demolition, and clearing; Erie county would have to pay $millions ($2.5-4million) for construction.

Newer is not necessarily better: 1996 Reinstein library is replacing their roof after 7 years.

Cazenovia & Dudley have the same technology as all county libraries now. Any gain is countywide.

No money has been allocated by Erie County, Buffalo, or BECPL for construction, architects, land acquisition, demolition, clearing, stocking, or furnishing this hub.

The majority on record opposes library closing/consolidation: Over 2,900+ people have signed petitions opposing closings, most from South Buffalo.

No locality wants this deal: It has been rejected by Tonawanda, N. Buffalo, W. Falls, Marilla, Collins, N. Collins, Clarence, etc… BECPL did not approve it, since it was rejected in 2000 by all of Erie County, including Mrs. Martino and Mr. Schroeder.

Suburban libraries are not all newer and better: 75% were built in the 1970’s or before.

Cazenovia & Dudley are well-used - 2 successful libraries in the top 4 of Buffalo book circulation.

Cazenovia & Dudley are needed where they stand: 40% of Buffalo’s adults, and uncounted children, have no access to a car and must walk to these neighborhood libraries. Both are surrounded by homes and businesses, next to parks, on major bus routes, near many schools, daycares, senior housing and services. They are a major asset in our safe livable and walkable neighborhoods.

Dudley has handicapped access, and we’re told Cazenovia was promised access, estimated to cost $40,000-80,000, by officials in 2000. Tell them you want them to keep their promises.

Buffalo Family

:)

[buffalofamily]

The new North Jefferson branch is being built as a one for one trade off. A great service to a community.

Taking away 2 for one and spending taxes is not the way to go.

BF

[buffalofamily]

The "Save our Libraries" group now has 3,000+ signatures and growing. This is the true feeling of South Buffalo. They were told if they don't want consolidation, they would not force it on the community. It is still being forced on South Buffalo.

BF

[buffalofamily]

Now the Library officials are helping start a so called "FRIENDS" of the NEW South Buffalo Library.

I could think of better names for this group:

Friends of consolidation!

Friends of the mystery library!

Friends of library officials who are taking away our services!

Friends of wasting millions of tax money!

DUH!!! The library system needs to start a group on it's own to try to gain support for this unpopular plan. What a bunch of pathetic people!

BF

[WNYresident]

Find out when the friends of the library meet. That would be a very interesting meeting to attend.

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
The proposed hub library would be smaller (Only 12,000 vs. 16,000sq.ft. for 2) Clarence library is 17,000sq.ft. for 20,000 people; South Buffalo will only get 12,000sq.ft. for over 40,000 people. Q. Fair deal? A. NO.

Hub: only one hour per week more of service (55 vs. 54 hrs.,7days/per week currently).

Hub: half the access: 1 site vs. 2 current sites with 2 meeting rooms, 2 sets references…


This is not an argument.....Those in Clarence (20,000) have a far greater usage of the facility than in South Buffalo..... and we have 20,000 more people. Before you throw facts out there you should check it first.....Sometimes someone who needs to make a well informed decision checks on these facts. Of the 20,000 Clarence people 14,325 have used the Library......Of the 40,000 in SB only 4,800 use the Library.

3,000 signatures out of 40,000 is what 13%......far from a mojority of people.... Meeting space.......for who and when? Really, put the true facts out there...it will save the county money in the long run! South Buffalo Residents will have something new they can call their own........

[buffalofamily]

You say:


3,000 signatures out of 40,000 is what 13%......far from a mojority of people


in SB only 4,800 use the Library.

Petitions were taken in front of the two libraries. I think over 3,000 of 4,800 users (your figure) would be a good indication.

The library said 100 attended the third informal meeting on March 20, 2003, but their SURVEY was filled out by 55 residents and 3 non residents. The library board is making a decision on a meeting survey where only about a dozen said they wanted a new library. Those who didn't fill out the survey, but were in attendance were librarians, library officials, city elected officials and their staff. Most of those who did attend were at the other two previous meeting. This means that well under 100 people total attended three meetings.

Fact Cazenovia and Dudley are each in the top 4 of circulation of Buffalo libraries.

More facts to come!

BF

I would trust a petition of 3,000 + over a survey of 58 people.

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
You say:
petitions were taken in front of the two libraries. I think over 3,000 of 4,800 users (your figure) would be a good indication.


I would trust a petition of 3,000 + over a survey of 58 people.

Missed the point....Your not speaking for South Buffalo! Those are not "Card" holders those are just people who have used the library....You compared it to Clarence! I'm telling you that only 13% of the tax payers (that figure could be less) in SB want to see something old and antiquated stay! I don't think I would be too concerned about the 3000 to 58 thing, most people who want change and know that it's coming don't bother going to these meetings. That's just the way it is......great example of that is the waterboard public hearing on Dec. 4th at City Hall...I'll bet you two old librarys the same people who were at the last one will be the only ones there again, why? Right now City water rates and the un-leashed KILROY (milroy) are killing us......

[Night Owl]

I have been covering this story of the South Buffalo Libraries for quite a few months. I have attended every Library board meeting to gain information as to what some of the residents are saying.

It's a fact that the number of people against Giambra's plan turned out in the attendence at these board meetings more so than those who support the new library. It is also true that more than 3,000 area residents signed in opposition of consolidating libraries. Do we have a siting of how many residents are in favor?

In all honesty, stats from every angle can be reviewed and presented here, but do we know what it all means? Giving percentages of the head count in South Buffalo, who has a card or who uses the Clarence Branch is pretty much irrelevant to the specifics of this story in South Buffalo.

At the public meetings held in our communities, a great deal of residents are still undecided due to lack of information like, site location, actual construction cost, how closing two successful branches will benifit the two neighborhoods and etc. These are all questions concerned residents have asked that the Library board cannot answer.

Mr. Michael Mahaney, the library director generally presents this project in his own opinion and I quote:
“I genuinely believe that most of the people of South Buffalo are open to this proposal, there are some people who don’t want to embrace change, there are others who think this is a great opportunity. I believe it’s a great opportunity.”
Mr. Mahaney said.

(This is not the first time he has stated his own personal opinion, just one example.)

I ask, how can a "public decision" be considered when this is something the B&ECPL director has conceided to? Normally when a person is set in their ways, it's next to impossible for that person to rended anyone else's opinions.

It is clear, more than 3,000 area residents say “NO” to Library consolidation, but the B&ECPL board still plans on following through with Giambra’s proposal.

[sbGUY27]

I don't think that the decision should be up to South Buffaloians alone. It't the whole countys taxes that support them, then I belive that it is a whole county matter. If south buffalo paid for it alone then that would be something different. But we don't. Put it to a county vote and see if they want to save money. Put the whole library consolidation issue to a county vote. If it passes then all libraries get consolidated.

[Night Owl]

You made a good point there, yet the obvious has already been made clear; no other town throughout Erie County has accepted the County Executive's consolidation proposal.

Though it effects Erie County libraries as a whole, this is still a matter of the two South Buffalo Branches and the residents it services. In other words, anyone living in South Buffalo who votes in favor of consolidation takes away from the people of Marilla, West falls, Cheektowaga, Amherst and every other location within Erie County's limits without actually knowing the effects it brings to their communities, and likewise for South Buffalo residents.

The city of Buffalo is the only locality that doesn't have it's own library board to render these issues, we as Buffalo citizens have to rely on the notions that are made by County Library officials that don't live in the the city.

It was quoted in the Buffalo News a while back by one of the (South Buffalo) representatives that said
“the only way to make this a countywide movement is to show people in at least one location that yes, this can work.”

Show the people?
A question I am still trying to get an answer for.

[buffalofamily]

SB GUY STATED:

Put it to a county vote and see if they want to save money. Put the whole library consolidation issue to a county vote. If it passes then all libraries get consolidated.

Let them give us information that shows the savings. So far, they have not. Mr. Mahaney the library director said on 11/14/03, we would save $100,000. a year in operating costs by consolidating Cazenovia & Dudley. Going by that figure, we won't realize any savings until 30 years or even more, if costs go up. We all know costs won't go down over the next 30 years.

An elderly gentleman asked them at the meeting at The Tosh center on March 20, 2003, if this would be put to a vote by the people of the community. Mr. Schroeder (the legislator in the district) ignored the question and moved on to other comments.

BTW - the votes for Griffin in the city council race was a good indication of the communities feelings. Martino promised to save libraries in 2000.

Mark Schroeder was elected, but stopped all mention of closing libraries in his campaign. Now he's back at trying to destroy the library service in South Buffalo.

Buffalo Family

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by Night Owl
[I](This is not the first time he has stated his own personal opinion,
I ask, how can a "public decision" be considered when this is something the B&ECPL director has conceided to?
It is clear, more than 3,000 area residents say “NO” to Library consolidation, but the B&ECPL board still plans on following through with Giambra’s proposal.

The first problem is and I quote "youv'e reported on it!" That in it's self is a problem. The first rule of journalism is to be fair and unbiased. Looking at some of your statements above looks like you believe the Director is Giambra's yes man. You also talked about the facts and that anything can be introudced but it's not relevant....Beg to differ...... Usage data is important! Insurance companies want to know, gas companies want to know, water authority wants to know ""how much we use."


I'm sure if the information is or was available they would enlighten everybody, but because it's not we feel they are trying to pull the wool over our eyes? Number one, they need to select the site... where? Your guess is as good as mine (I hope it's in the middle of both though), how much? Another good guess, I'm sure it will have something to do with location and what will need to be done to the site. It's only one neighborhood by the way, it's all South Buffalo!

It's not a public decision, it's a decision based on the BECPL and the information they have in front of them. Any good County Ex. will ask those appointed to positions of authority to cut costs! Seems to me this is a cost cutting measure. I'm sure if the usage data dictated that both stay open we wouldn't be going through this.

When I was first approached about this and asked if I would sign a petition, I asked some questions, very basic questions! How much it costs to run both Caz and Dudley (they had no answer), how much would it cost to run the new facility (they had no answer) , How many people use the library (they had no answer). Seem's to me that's all you have to do is ask...I did, I got the answers I wanted, except location and cost to build a new building. The figures I was given were over a 200,000 dollar savings a year! Lets see...that's 4 50k a year jobs or 8 25k a year jobs....you break it down any way you want. These are old buildings which require a lot of up keep!

Sometimes our elected officials have to do things for the good of

"all tax payers." This seems to be a logical step....something new which will net a savings in the NEAR future.

As a "reporter" I'm sure you realize that facts are important, they lend credence to what you write..... As you get the facts I'm sure you'll realize the sky really isn't falling in South Buffalo...

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
SB GUY STATED:


BTW - the votes for Griffin in the city council race was a good indication of the communities feelings. Martino promised to save libraries in 2000.
Mark Schroeder was elected, but stopped all mention of closing libraries in his campaign. Now he's back at trying to destroy the library service in South Buffalo.

Buffalo Family

There is this political machine in SB...resides between Potter and South Park....Make the machine mad and they come out in droves...look at the stats for SB voters...see where a large majority of them came from....Mark is a good man, Mary was a good.........Griffin goes with the vote....a true politician!

[buffalofamily]

You say:
...look at the stats for SB voters...see where a large majority of them came from....

Mr. Griffin won big in almost if not all of the 30 + South Buffalo election districts.

You also say:
Mark is a good man

Yes he is a good man, but should leave the libraries alone. He should be fighting for making them better, and save $2.5 + Million Dollars. If South Buffalo loses two libraries and gets the shoe box that is being forced on them, the "good man" we all know and love will be the next one, like Mary.

you also stated:
goes with the vote....a true politician!

The community spoke with their votes. He now represents us. He spoke for what the people have asked him to campaign for. At least he had the guts to take on issues that other politicians would not.

BF

[Night Owl]

FROM THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE BUFFALO AND ERIE COUNTY PUBLIC LIBRARY BOARD OF TRUSTEES
JUNE 19, 2003

Chairman Roach said the Board must be concerned about community response to the County Executive’s proposal. While it is certainly something that bears consideration, the people who use libraries must make a decision of this nature, and much input will be needed.

Dr. Vazquez thinks it is very important that utilization patterns and demographics be studied. It might not make sense to close two busy libraries. Chairman Roach agreed with that and reiterated that careful consideration and due diligence will be done before any decisions are made.

Statements made by the B&ECPL board members.

[citymouse]

Once again you no not of what you speak. The library in each of those areas of south Buffalo is important to the people that they serve.
You are not from South Buffalo, you don't know the people or the area. That part of Buffalo is what could be called a hold over from a better time. The young stay and buy homes on the streets where they grew up. Double houses abound in which both families that live in them are probably related in one way or another. There are still six catholic parishes out of seven that have grammer schools and children are friends with children who's parents knew each other a generation ago and thier grandparents likewise did the same.
They support each other in various ways ( stop by one of the various fund raisers for a sick nieghbor) and the quality of life is probably better than most of the suburbs, if your values are more toward family, friends and neighbor.
Children walk to the library after school to do home work, research school projects and nowdays to use the computer.
If you live on South park you go to Dudley if you live on Seneca you go to Caz. If you live on Abbott you go to either. It works and has worked for years and years.The people like it that way, the libraries are there to serve them, why change it.There is no argument. Why spend the money? I am sure they could find better use for it.
They could lower your taxes as much as the library would cost. You always are howling about high taxes and wasteful spending. It's not much but it is a start.

[buffalofamily]

Citymouse states:
Why spend the money? I am sure they could find better use for it.
SO TRUE! Someone in the paper last week said that they should fix up the two libraries instead of spending millions.

Quality of life will suffer in two neighborhoods if they close them.
BF

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
You say:

Mr. Griffin won big in almost if not all of the 30 + South Buffalo election districts.
BF

Once again Bufffam you don't have the correct numbers...can you say "skew"...... Number one if they don't give you the numbers...GET the numbers! Then report the numbers...... First there are 33 reporting districts in South Buffalo........ of the 40,000 or so residents "only" 9,087 voted....The greatest majority coming from the Potter/Abbott/McKinley area...now if you want the numbers (nitty gritty) do the research.

This is not to say that there is an excuse for the other area's who had piss poor turn outs, because there is no excuse! To condem someone because they think there is a better way to do things is wrong. Curious....of the 3,000 signatures how many are SB residents? This sounds like a Jimmy (the skew) Griffin type of petition? You remember his petitions......

I understand your concern about them taking away Caz......I use the same branch....I used it when I was a kid...and now my kids use it. This is not East Aurora/West Falls debate...There there is a large distance between the two, about six miles. This is a debate on cost savings to the County tax payer! County money! They must operate on a budget just as you and I do... The usage numbers indicate one is better than two......Trust me nobody is going to die here.........

[WNYresident]

THe whole point is cost saving spread over time. One would be better if there wasn't a need to spend somewhere of $2,500,000 to do so. That's the issue. Close one branch and NOT build another will show a savings... building one to replace two doesn't show a cost savings for over 25 years if you are only saving $100,000 a month. Saving $100,000 seems to be stretching it seeing we need to see the numbers of where the savings are.

But looking at hte buffalo school district issues of showing an acutal budget is probally the same issue about the libraries. No one even the people running the libraries knows what the true numbers are.

:)

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by WNYresident
THe whole point is cost saving spread over time. One would be better if there wasn't a need to spend somewhere of $2,500,000 to do so.
No one even the people running the libraries knows what the true numbers are.
:)

Curious....where did you get the 2.5 if nobody knows what the true numbers are? I really don't think there are that many stupid people running WNY, losing prop. to realize a savings in 25 years! Now that sounds like a real problem...Let me know where you got these figures and I'll double check them......Everything I got could be wrong?

[WNYresident]

I took the middle of the numbers i saw on the post... anywhere from 1 million to 4 million to build a new library.

I'm the one that keeps saying get all the facts and figures.. :)

I was just making an example of $100,000 a year in savings sounds like a lot but when you drop 2.5 mll to do so it's not.

I"m one for facts facts facts! before you whine about stuff.

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by WNYresident
I"m one for facts facts facts! before you whine about stuff.

:) I wish others were like that!!!!

[watchdog]

If you want facts look at Joel's Proposed Book of Jokes...err...I mean Budget

Book "C" Page 5

Cost of New facility: 2.5 million (e)
Annual Cost of Dudley: 248,000
Annual Cost of Caz: 231,000
Combined = 479,000

Upgrades and Renovations of Both facilities : 2 million

Estimated savings annual : "potentially" 100,000 annually

All of this over 100,000 so he can go and "appoint" another friend or two....

right off the bat you'd be saving 500,000 just by renovating and leave these people's libraries alone....

and of course the Budget leaves out the most important figure which would be estimated combined operating costs in one building...

All it says is significantly less....How do they know that with out an estimated figure

So If Joel and the County dont know the exact figures why should we take them for thier word...

[Night Owl]

and of course the Budget leaves out the most important figure which would be estimated combined operating costs in one building...

Countless times, many people have asked the very question:
Where's the savings?

The library director and board members have stated numerous times that this consolidation project is a plan for long-term savings, yet no one has presented anything substantial to back it up.

Curious....where did you get the 2.5 if nobody knows what the true numbers are?

The 2.5 million dollars is what the County Executive is looking to spend on construction of one new library should the two South Buffalo Branches close.

[WNYresident]

Thats my WHHHOOOLLLEEE point about this site. I dont think they even know what they are spending. THey have it going in and out so fast they really lose the handle of the complete situation.

They mention Joel diped into the reserves.. Well eitherway it means you have spent more than you have coming in. When the reserves are gone you have no more. If we have nothing to show for what was spent it was pointless.

THey are all like playing the money game with the developers without acutally looking at the acutal physical effect it has on WNY.

The moment the local goverments had tax incentives to use against each other they formed a small businesses in each town. They call them IDAs.

Each developer gets a town board in thier pockets then each developer tries to gain clients. Each client they build a building for the more profit they make. They don't care they are taking the tax revenue stream from buffalo/town and moving it to another town. THey just want to build thier buildings. But all the while giving the stream of OUR tax money away for up to 15 years.

Ask your town board people what spectlative building incentives are. Someone told me today they get tax discounts to build empty buildings hope to eventually gain a renter. If they don't we get to lok at a empty building for years till it's full. THey in the mean time PAY next to no tax to have that sit there.

I don't know why the residents have to supliment thier building practices. Plus why give a competator of mine a tax break. I'd be pissed about that. If they can't offer a lower prioce on a product becasue they are getting discounts on taxes and utilities that isn't fair to other businesses. Plus they have this BS about hiring people to get these incentives. Look back and see how many companies acutally paid back the money discounts they got even though they never hit their goals. BUT all in the mean time the developers made thier money. Nice huh.

Im still like perplexed how the notion of pay raises poped up seeing we have a budget issue in buffalo. If i was making $100,000 a year and HAD no results to show I couldn't tell someone I want more pay. Specially when the average WNY makes considerablly less on the average.

Look what state/property taxes are going up in general.. think about it in 25 years.. I'm only going to be 64 and hell i dont want to have $12,000 a year property taxes. $3800 or so is bad enough as it is.

We all need to start looking where all this money goes..

[watchdog]

The real problem boils down to our spineless legislature....just want the money for their districts so most of them can pay off their illegal campaign debts......could care less what happens in the future

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by watchdog
The real problem boils down to our spineless legislature....just want the money for their districts so most of them can pay off their illegal campaign debts......could care less what happens in the future

WOW!

[sbGUY27]

Someone should repost the budget report link again.

The money goes to salary. Wasn't it something like 24 million a year. There is where the money goes. That is an awful lot of librarians.

[buffalofamily]

The staff at Cazenovia thing there won't be staff cuts with this plan, but Joel Giambra said a week before the election, that we would have half the staff we have now.

The library staff are fighting for this awful deal. They are digging their own hole in the ground and don't even realize it.


The real problem boils down to our spineless legislature.... I agree with watchdog, we do have a spinless legislator in South Buffalo.

BF

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
The staff at Cazenovia thing there won't be staff cuts with this plan, but Joel Giambra said a week before the election, that we would have half the staff we have now.

The library staff are fighting for this awful deal. They are digging their own hole in the ground and don't even realize it.

I agree with watchdog, we do have a spinless legislator in South Buffalo.

BF

WOW!

[Night Owl]

Even the Buffalo Public Schools have opted not to build NEW but to reconstruct what's already standing.

Headline from Buffalo News Sunday edition Front Page:
Rehab more likely than new buildings

The two branches have minimal/fixable "problems" that can be easily solved with less money and maintaining the 2 locations as they are. And it's very simple, Giambra set out with a mission to spend a large amount of money and the offer he's made has been reduced to friends and neighbors pitted against each other in their communities over, of all things... construction and the glamour of 2 and half million dollars.

Has anyone forgotten this? When the libraries are emptied and deserted, the city of Buffalo would still have responsibility of maintaining two vacant buildings as well as the new library.

And also, the County Executive's plan ONLY covers the cost of construction... nothing more. Land acquisition and payment of an acre of land in the highly residential communities, land preparation/electrical, internet lines plus rerouting of sewer and gas lines, demolition of pre-existing housing/businesses will too come out of Buffalo's pocket book and not from the $2.5 million margin Giambra has set.

simple research, it's all part of the fine print.

[WNYresident]

As an example, lets say we saved $100,000 a year with one library versus two. $100,000 a year is a drop in the bucket out of a $24,000,000 budget I think i saw.

That $100,000 could be overtime for 5 not so nice goverment employees. That wasn't a shot at all civil service people.. I'm talking about the ones that abuse the system.

Or the few percent raise for our elected officials.. That raise will cost the tax payer more than $100,000 a year I bet. Plus remember they saddle all those earnings on an excellent retirement plan we have to pay for. As i said before, when does that layer of cost of doing business in NYS stop going up? I personally think we pay them more than enough, don't you?

Oh, $100,000 a year is 2 patronage jobs in WNY goverment. 2 people's salary's could be used to keep both libraries open and make a few hundred people in SB happy.

Oh, a $100,000.. how many "studies" has WNY had and charged the tax payer thousands of dollars for them?

OH $100,000.. exactly why is the taxpayer held hostage on paying "thier" healthcare? Why can't we all get them the cheapest insurance there is? That's what most americans have...Exactly why should i have to cancel mine to make sure they have thiers?

:)

[buffalofamily]

Many think it's all part of a plan to dumb down South Buffalo. Remember that it is one of the last stable neighborhoods left in Buffalo. It is also a very strong political base. Voters came out the heaviest in South Buffalo 47%, where other areas had as little as 11% turnout.

South Buffalo's population has not changed much, but we've lost police, schools, retail, and now they want to cut access to information. We even lost part of the South Park area to redistricting to Lovejoy.

Think about it.

Buffalofamily

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by Night Owl
Giambra set out with a mission to spend a large amount of money and the offer he's made has been reduced to friends and neighbors pitted against each other in their communities over, of all things... construction and the glamour of 2 and half million dollars. simple research, it's all part of the fine print.

Put a bow on this post and put it under the tree.....Your out of your journalistic mind.... Giambra set out???? How do you set out? 2.5? If the Board of Education had 2.5 of their "OWN" money...they would build new.....Cost of land which is limitied in Buffalo would make this un-realistic to begin with.

2.5? They just built an apartment building on Potters for well under a million...new gas lines, electric, phone, sewers and yes Viginia cable too. Joel didn't set out to build the TEMPLE in hostile territory...He set out to spend "ALL" the tobacco money he could before Christmas 2005.... 2.5- 100k a year a month "FINE PRINT" where do you get these figures???? Pitted? This whole thing is political!!! That is the american way incase you haven't noticed Dems "vs" Repubs................with a spattering of others mixed in....

Buildings.......Olmstead will be the caretaker of the Caz branch...more than likely turn it into a "Hortons" (old one), gonna need the money to up-keep the building..... Oh my god not another vacant building on South Park! Jimmy G. has big plans for that though.... I'm kidding about the Hortons, not kidding about Jimmy(my god 4 years?) Griffin though. The glamour of it all, you must think SB has not got 2.5 million in some time, that we don't know how to act....the temptation of 2.5 million (bad #) or the savings of 100K a day week, month or year....FINE PRINT WHAT FINE PRINT? Well, we should be excited and we should welcome something new to SB.... It's called "CHANGE" not bad change.....it's not going to destroy not one neighbor hood or deprive anybody from using it.......

[buffalofamily]

WELL
Well, we should be excited and we should welcome something new to SB....
SURE something new should be welcomed. It should not be at the expense of two libraries. A recent article in the South Buffalo News suggested that we pay a huge amount of taxes, but have had no big capital project in the area. WELL, why not give us deserving taxpayers a third library? We are paying for it. It's right on our tax bill.

BF

[WNYresident]

2.5- 100k a year a month "FINE PRINT" where do you get these figures???? Pitted? This

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I said as an example. I acutally haven't seen anything in print from either side. That's my point when i say I dont think our elected officials have clue to what is really going on anyhow.

I saw a copy of one budget that might as well been toilet paper. It was very vague over all. I want to see each library run down etc... I know little businesses do it with quick books pro. :)

[WNYresident]

It's called "CHANGE" not bad change.....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Change without progress is just spinning wheels. Thats why enless we change ALL elected groups to remove the special interest factors all WNY will do is spin it's wheels.

[WNYresident]

Why can't we get an actual budget of the erie county libraries? All the numbers with each libraries rundown.

I've been asking for that since the arguement came about the libraries. The PDF on some website someone sent me wasn't really detailed enough..It looked more like a budget over view not something a business would use.

How many libraries are there? isn't hte budget like 24,000,000? Just for a basic giggles and grin lets take the number of libraroes and divid that into 24,000,000 if that's the budget. This stuff has to be narrowed down.

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by WNYresident
2.5- 100k a year a month "FINE PRINT" where do you get these figures???? Pitted? This

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I said as an example. :)

I know...my post was for "night owl" But while I'm here, why don't we build another library and have three in SB? Sounds good to me........That of all the things I've read on here makes a ton of tax...err..... I mean.....give me a break

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
Many think it's all part of a plan to dumb down South Buffalo. Remember that it is one of the last stable neighborhoods left in Buffalo. It is also a very strong political base. Voters came out the heaviest in South Buffalo 47%, where other areas had as little as 11% turnout.
Think about it.Buffalofamily

Ohh no...not the scewed figures again....... Math was not your strong suit was it? Once again I say go to the Erie Cnty board of Elections get the # of registered voters and then look at the # of people who voted and where they (voters) live.....47% is high and not correct. 9,000 out of 40,000? Many think? Dumb down? Police....Fire lets be realistic here...the city can't afford to pay all these people why because the tax base isn't there. Why have people moved....no new libraries...... I can scew with the best of them. Think about it.........

[buffalofamily]

Still, based on how they figure turnout, South Buffalo had the highest.

At least I base my opinion on facts and figures.

You go hang out on Matinoville & Schroederland, where everything is "BIGGER", "BETTER", "NEWER" and based on no facts whatsoever.

GO CRY TO YOUR FRIENDS Mary & Mark. They will assure you that it's going to be alright my friend.

BF

[WNYresident]

I don't hink they are dumbing down people. I see parent dumbing down thier kids when they use tv's, gameboys and playstations for baby sitters.

IN all honestly does anyone really read each post here? SB doesn't want a new library and they want to keep what they have.

Has one acurate figure been posted that estimates the yearly savings with one new library in the middle of the two while maintaining something with the old buildings?

Just ask the erie county library people to had over the paper work that shows the savings including the cost of building the new library. Until they have that in writing with acurate numbers this post shouldn' of even been started. If thier intentions are just to close them and let the idea of a new library fade away then just say so.

You know what we need in WNY? We need real business people running the show. I know i'm finally fed up with lawyer/politician wanna be's thinking they know how to run WNY. If they would so good at what they were doing and reacted to the changes that were happening the last 25 years, this website wouldn't of been started now would it.



:)

[buffalofamily]

Just ask the erie county library people to had over the paper work that shows the savings including the cost of building the new library. Until they have that in writing with acurate numbers this post shouldn' of even been started. If thier intentions are just to close them and let the idea of a new library fade away then just say so.

Just the point. The Library officials, board and elected officials have provided NO proof of any actual savings. Still OVER a year into this loose process, we've been given no information in the community.

We have been given smoke and mirror stories. Buzz words like NEWER, BIGGER, BETTER, TECHNOLOGY, STATE OF THE ART, and BLA BLA BLA, but no facts or figures.

The community was shown a video of the Clarence library, thinking they would get one like it, but the proposed "HUB" would be 5,000 Sq. Feet smaller. The community has been promised "No closed door meetings", but meetings have been going on behind the closed doors.

SHOW US THE PROOF

Let the community decide, it's our taxes.

Buffalofamily

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
Still, based on how they figure turnout, South Buffalo had the highest. At least I base my opinion on facts and figures.
BF

OK BUFF...CRYING IN MARTINOVILLE IS HITTING BELOW THE BELT. I would rather have seen Kenyon win myself... Now I only have problems with your figures when you throw them out as a catalyst for your movement to "SAVE THE LIBRARY (S)". You provide numbers to people that just don't exist or are embelished/skewed/tainted or wrong. As a leader in the push, it is your duty to those that follow your cause. to make sure they don't get led astray. Nothing worse than giving someone bad information just so they jump on your bandwagon. YOUR NOT RUNNING FOR SB COUNCILMEMBER...speak the truth or at least know what your speaking about.


Now to your "quote" above....... Still based on how they figure turn out......my opinion on facts and figures.... Your right Buff.....43% of the vote in Buffalo came from SB which equates to piss poor turn out in Buffalo in general..... Not 43% of the 33 reporting districts in SB voted! That would be historic....Everybody would stump here if that were the case... So in some regards your right....SB did lead the charge in voting...but that was compared to the entire "City" In all your mailings and all your posts you use the same figures, you know the "skewed ones" and I just want you to be honest with yourself and the others that trail along in your wagon.

[Night Owl]

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, so I'll just post it and let the two of you hammer it out a little more :)

SOUTH District COUNCIL MEMBER
33 Districts out of 33 Reporting (100)%

Rep) KENYON, GENEVIEVE M
votes 368 percent 4%

Dem) GRIFFIN, JAMES D
votes 5,892 percent 63%

Ind) MARTINO, MARY M
votes 2,584 percent 28%

Con) MARTINO, MARY M
votes 524 percent 6%

MARTINO, MARY M (Totals)
votes 3,108 percent33%

Office Totals votes 9,368 percent100%

TURN-OUT 49%

Information gained from the Erie County Works website
-election results by district

[Night Owl]

The PDF on some website someone sent me wasn't really detailed enough..It looked more like a budget over view not something a business would use.
the PDF files and ones provided from the B&ECPL's website do not give clear bites in their information.

Has one acurate figure been posted that estimates the yearly savings with one new library in the middle of the two while maintaining something with the old buildings?
Nope, and it won't unless the B&ECPL board decides to release that information. There's nothing made available to the public to show how the savings will occur. The library director says time and again what a great "opportunity" this is, but refuses to display how.

Until they have that in writing with acurate numbers this post shouldn' of even been started.
This thread is a very important example of how local government produces wasteful construction projects. These posts show true meaning to how politics plays a role in something that shouldn't be political based in the first place. It's Giambra that entrusted the people to decide what's needed, some say a new library is while some say the two are sufficient enough- and when I say it has pitted people against one another, I mean it really does. Just bring up the conversation in any populated place in South Buffalo and tension mounts.

Without this thread... people won't have opportunity to speakup on such a neighborhood issue. The more attention that's spotlighted, the more people become aware. Think if there are people reading these forums from another area that turned down this proposal; wouldn't be reassuring to know the people fighting the plan are making an impact in another area of Western New York as well? :)

[buffalofamily]

OOPS--It was higher. I stated 47%, it should have been stated as 49% voter turnout. That is a high turnout. Thank you NiteOwl for the information.

The "Save our Libraries" folks are providing information based on public records.

THE ONLY INFORMATION disputed by the board was(information NOT published by the Save our Libraries group). What THE LIBRARY BOARD HAS DISPUTED, was a so called wrong number given of the office of Mark Schroeder. It turns out that the number in question was correct. It's his office number in County Hall. The same number was provided by the League of Women Voters and various County sources, both online and in print. It was put out by an independent community group. It was then pointed out to the library Board of Trustees that, all "Save our Libraries" printed material have the groups name and a contact number.


They picked apart everything provided by "Save our Libraries", and have not found anything they can dispute.

The library board, officials and elected reps put out one publication called "A New Library For South Buffalo". It's filled with a pile of written fluff based on no stats, figures, information etc. It's distributed in our libraries, was paid for by the library system (our tax money), and was mailed out by the County legslator Mark Schroeder's office (our tax money) again.

Nothing worse than having a library consolidation forced on you, and you have to pay for the campaign doing it.

Buffalofamily

[WNYresident]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The library director says time and again what a great "opportunity" this is, but refuses to display how.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I don't think that's that answer I would expect from an employee. Will this department hand over actual figures or has anyone from the save the library group not asked for them?

Is the "Director" a volunteer position or is it a paid position in the county? I apologize if it’s just volunteer and he’s doing his best.

If we are paying for the "director’s” salary I would you expect a detailed answer if asked.
Can’t we just asked and be handed the actual spending ledgers of the Erie County Library system for this year? We could easily over view it in Excel and cut all the un-necessary items. We then compare what they are spending on various items to confirm we are getting the best deal before we look at "opportunities".

I was thinking earlier about the county taking over Buffalo items as the zoo, etc. They are going to turn them into more job patronage centers…

[buffalofamily]

Is the "Director" a volunteer position or is it a paid position in the county? I apologize if it’s just volunteer and he’s doing his best.

HE is a paid employee $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I was thinking earlier about the county taking over Buffalo items as the zoo, etc. They are going to turn them into more job patronage centers…
Problem is that they are "cherry picking" the institutions they want control over.

BF

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
[
Problem is that they are "cherry picking" the institutions they want control over.

BF

you watch toooooooo much TV

[buffalofamily]

Posted By mynikeballs

you watch toooooooo much TV

Actually, I don't watch much TV at all. I mostly read. The neighborhood libraries are great for that.

Maybe more people would vote if they would turn off the tube and educate themselves and get the facts.


BF

[buffalofamily]

OFFICIAL VOTER TURNOUT

South Council Member Turnout – 49%

Delaware Council Member Turnout – 44%

University Council Member Turnout – 29%

Lovejoy Council Member Turnout – 29%

Masten Council Member Turnout – 26%

Niagara Council Member Turnout – 26%

North Council Member Turnout – 25%

Fillmore Council Member Turnout – 24%

Ellicott Council District Turnout – 22%


COUNTY OF ERIE TURNOUT – 44%


Note the heavier turnout of SB even over the entire county statistics.

REAL STATS - Compliments Erie County Board of Elections 11/25/2003 official results

Buffalo Family

[Night Owl]

Will this department hand over actual figures or has anyone from the save the library group not asked for them?
'Save Our Libraries' the organization; (I don't want to be misunderstood with using that title) has asked countless times as with reporters and people from the general public and no such figures come out.

Just the same tired buzz-line "It's a wonderful opportunity".

Is the "Director" a volunteer position or is it a paid position in the county?
This is paid position the library director has. As per the last B&ECPL director in 1999, the salary was roughly $95,000 a year. I won't speculate on what "benifits" they receive though.

[buffalofamily]

$95.000 is a lot of income in these parts.

That could be why he's pushing the "PLAN". If they wanted it built in the middle of the creek, he would probably say what a "wonderful opportunity" it is for the community. A community he dosen't live in.

BF

[WNYresident]

Why is this director worth $95,000?

Another Civil service multiple choice winner?

For $95,000 I expect more than an "opportunity" is there answer.

SO can we get the "save the library" group to file a FOI that we put togeather? I want all hard paid out cash ledgers for each library including payroll. I bet we can widdle away $100,000 and keep both libraries.

Also, we need to find a new library director. At $95,000 a year salary we should expect more than "an opportunity".

[Night Owl]

The library board is an Erie County board. The city of Buffalo is the only area in Erie County that doesn't have it's own library board, all of the motions and resolutions for Buffalo Libraries are done through a county panel.

The various members of the board don't reside in the nieghborhoods in which they making crutial conclusion about.

[WNYresident]

http://www.buffalolib.org/libraries/index.asp

Seems there’s 52 libraries according to the website.

$24,000,000 budget from what i can gather from these post..

Average budget per library is $461538.00 ($24,000,000 / 52) I understand I’m over simplifying this.

Now if they are closing 2 libraries then building one theoretically we are saving $460,000 a year seeing one is gone. We spend $2.5 million (from what I gather from the post) our PAYBACK should be a little over 5 years then we save ~ $460,000 a year. Why are they only showing a $100,000 a year savings?


Over all i think we should just cut all state/county elected positions paychecks a few percent. The value there will be felt more than the savings of closing one library.

Now worse case, why can't they just close one library and leave the other alone and immediately save about $460,000 a year?

Over all we have to see the real numbers. Anyone know the leader of the save the libraries group? They need some pointers to bolster an argument other than, "save our libraries". :)

Plus why can’t they build a steel frame building versus some over built building for a new library to cut cost. Same goes for the new county building I heard they want to build in buffalo. They seem to through buildings away after so many years of use anyhow. Who says we need to give our government employees grade A office space?

[Night Owl]

The original notion (in 2000) brought to the communities of South Buffalo was to "just to build new". A year ago (to date) the reduced amount Giambra offered is now $2 and a half million if two branches are closed. Truth is, there isn't a need for the B&ECPL to 'reduce costs' because they are staying well within their spending limits and overall budget. In fact, they are coming out about even with supporting all of the braches. The "consolidation" is more a created demand for "construction" projects because there's mystery money to be spent.

It wasn't until earlier this year that "buzz words" began circulating about a 'cost-cutting' measures because the B&ECPL board was bumbarded with questions as to WHY they want to close neighborhood libraries.

why can't they just close one library and leave the other alone and immediately save about $460,000 a year?
In doing so, it would cost one branch more to take on what the two braches do. Additional staff would be needed for additional hours, additional space, additional computers, additional books, additional references, movies, CD's and etc. It would be impossible to fit a whole nother library within just one building, whether it be an existing building or a newly constructed one.

It was noted in this thread about the combined total of both branches on specific items and the new branch will be far less; which means the library partons will recieve far less services that they are paying for via their property tax dollars.

In closing just one branch, it will alienate the residents of one community; which is articled in the B&ECPL policies that can't be done.

The heavily residential South Buffalo is one region in the city of Buffalo, but there are distint neighborhoods within it's boundaries, The Old First Ward, Seneca Street area, South Park area, Abbott rd area, The Valley, Seneca/Babcock and pockets of Keisertown and upto the West Seneca Border.

[Curmudgeon]

Truth is, there isn't a need for the B&ECPL to 'reduce costs' because they are staying well within their spending limits and overall budget.
WNY taxes and deficits are outragious. Every single govt agency (including B&PCPL) should be called upon to reduce expenditures as much as possible. The fact that an agency hasn't exceeded it's projected budget allotment is no reason to not reduce spending.

It wasn't until earlier this year that "buzz words" began circulating about a 'cost-cutting' measures because the B&ECPL board was bumbarded with questions as to WHY they want to close neighborhood libraries.
About 4 years ago a consultanting firm was hired to analyze the libraries and they found the they were just about the most wasteful in the country. That's what started all this. You should read the newspaper more often.

In doing so, it would cost one branch more to take on what the two braches do.
Not really, No. Any marginal costs assoiated with "more activity" at a library would be more than offset by the savings of complete closure of another.

In closing just one branch, it will alienate the residents of one community; which is articled in the B&ECPL policies that can't be done.
the "policies" are nothing more than a "wish list mission statement" put out by a government agency, the B&ECPL. The B&ECPL is 100% subserviant to the county govt and if this agency is told to close branches, it has absolutely no say in the matter at all. Refusal to close branches if ordered will result in the firing and replacement of library management.

Please check your facts.

[Night Owl]

Please check your facts.
These are all factors being brought up during library's monthly board meetings. What I state is factual data being brought up to the B&ECPL board, and are questions raised by the residents who also attend the meetings at the downtown Central Branch. Perhaps I may have not noticed you've attended them.

In doing so, it would cost one branch more to take on what the two braches do.
Not really, No. Any marginal costs assoiated with "more activity" at a library would be more than offset by the savings of complete closure of another.
Yet the remaining aspect stays the same, the residents are recieving less for their disbursements.

That's what started all this.
Actually not, the original offer extended by the county executive was not in efforts to save the B&ECPL money. A first community meeting back in November of last year, the total offered was $4 million and did not include 'cost cutting' procedures, but just additional funds are available to construct a new library if two are closed. A month later, at a second public meeting it was reduced to two and a half million (again) without 'cost cutting' methods. It wasn't until after heat from residents rised that this became an issue of 'savings' which began earlier this year. But, the B&ECPL board haven't shown anything as of yet to uphold thier suggestion how two closed libraries will save any money.

If the libraries are having dificulties meeting their budgets, it would be more reasonable to invert the $2.5 million into the library funds to support the branches but it is not what's being done in this case. It's all about the Razzle - Dazzle.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually not, the original offer extended by the county executive was not in efforts to save the B&ECPL money.
The B&ECPL doesn't have its "own" money to save. All funding it receives comes from the county. They are an agency funded by and accountable to the county. The county is looking to save county money by reducing expenses.

Yet the remaining aspect stays the same, the residents are recieving less for their disbursements.
that is an effect of reducing spending! Less taxes = less govt provided stuff.

Actually not, the original offer extended by the county executive was not in efforts to save the B&ECPL money.
Sure it was! It probably seemed so obvious to the county that this is a cost-cutting measure that they felt it was self-evident.

But, the B&ECPL board haven't shown anything as of yet to uphold thier suggestion how two closed libraries will save any money.
2 main savings - older building maintance and COST OF LABOR , PENEFITS, AND PENSION costs for people who aren't needed.

[Night Owl]

A few Questions I forgot to ask: from your quote

About 4 years ago a consultanting firm was hired to analyze the libraries and they found the they were just about the most wasteful in the country.

1. What was the name of the consultanting firm?

2. Was this 'consulting' done pertaining just to the Buffalo & Erie County Public Libraries or all of the libraries throughout the United States in general?

[buffalofamily]

The study was published by Aaron Cohen Associates LTD

It states about Dudley:

"The Library is located on South Park & Whitfield Avenues. This is a CONVENIENT location as it is close to many of the local area businesses. The community is close-knit and stable with MANY families. The building is one floor with a brick exterior (that needs repointing)."

It is ADA accessable and can be expanded.


It also finds that Cazenovia , built in 1925, needs ADA access, and a better layout. The community would be better served with a small investment in Dudlel and Cazenovia, rather than wasting millions on a consolidation that may eliminate services in both communities.

Buffalo family

[citymouse]

Are you guy's quoting from the same study?

[Night Owl]

Curmudgeon said:
About 4 years ago a consultanting firm was hired to analyze the libraries and they found the they were just about the most wasteful in the country.

But he never replied with which study it was.

Buffalofamily said:
The study was published by Aaron Cohen Associates LTD

citymouse, I don't think they are talking about the same study unless certain items are being misrepresented because in the study done by Cohen Associates there was too a mention of fractional unused or 'wasted' space found at both locations.

[buffalofamily]

Lets fix what we have now. These facilities serve the area well. Fix them up and save at least $3,000,000.00 of OUR tax money.

BF

[buffalofamily]

The Buffalo Common Council Just passed a version of this resolution on December 9, 2003.

Here is a draft: I'll post the final resolution when it is available to me.

Draft Resolution for a Moratorium on consolidation of Public Libraries in Buffalo

Whereas, Buffalo branches have been disproportionately targeted for
consolidation in the past, losing one fourth of their branches (5)
since
1963 to total 15 in 2003;

Whereas, 11 out of 15 Buffalo libraries were targeted for consolidation
in
2000;

Whereas, North Buffalo branches were targeted for consolidation in 2002;

Whereas, South Buffalo branches are currently being targeted in 2002-3;

Whereas, the library branches of Buffalo’s East side are being proposed as the next target of library consolidation;

Whereas, by these actions we can assume that Buffalo’s libraries are being disproportionately targeted for consolidation in the past, currently, and therefore, in the future;

Whereas, Buffalo & Erie County Public Library (BECPL) Board began as a Buffalo Library Board, funded and administered by the city of Buffalo; which nurtured libraries outside of Buffalo by giving them the advantages of being
part of the larger, more established Buffalo system, through legal
contracts with that system;

Whereas, in 1953, the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library system began as a county entity, and in 2003, has grown to 52 library units with 24 boards of trustees, encompassing 36 contracting branches with 22 contracting boards outside of Buffalo and 15 branches in Buffalo with no board and no
contract;

Whereas, the legal and binding contracts, held by the 36 contracting libraries outside of Buffalo have the advantage of having their own boards, picked by their own communities, having their own funding from the county
which they decide how to spend, they pick their own staff and
administration so that, that staff will be attuned to the needs of their particular communities;

Whereas, the Association of Contracting Trustees (ACT) further
represents these 36 libraries outside of Buffalo, while Buffalo libraries have no such representation;

Whereas, the 15 Buffalo libraries are the only branches in the BECPL system without a representative board, a legal and binding contract, the rights and funding to do as they see fit provided by such a contract, or representation in ACT, and are therefore underrepresented in the BECPL system;

Whereas, Buffalo has, in its one city, one-third of the Erie County
population concentrated within 40 square miles of densely urban
landscape, while it takes 22 towns to make up the other two-thirds;

Whereas, according to Greater Buffalo Niagara Regional Transportation Council, forty percent of Buffalo’s adults have no access to cars, and many more uncounted children have not access to transportation, and therefore, these populations must walk to neighborhood libraries in order to receive library service;

Whereas, lack of core services, like neighborhood libraries, helps
cause the dismantling of livable, walkable, safe neighborhoods, degrades services to children, seniors, and job seekers, degrades community values, contributes to crime, blight, and hopelessness;

Whereas, Buffalo libraries are strategically placed to deliver the best service to its citizens - on major bus routes, surrounded by many schools, businesses and homes;

Whereas, targeted Buffalo libraries are successful where they stand, and as an example, the South Buffalo libraries have both been, for years, in the top four of book circulation for the city;

Whereas, funding has been severely cut to Buffalo public schools, and students have even more need for their neighborhood library that they can walk to safely, to accomplish their homework assignments and projects;

Whereas, library consolidation would cost more in Buffalonians’ tax dollars, while delivering less service;

Whereas, Buffalo would have to spend more money for acquiring land, demolition and clearing for one replacement library than for
maintaining two existing buildings;

Whereas, this land acquisition, demolition and clearing will remove businesses and/or homes from tax rolls, and therefore, go against city revitalization efforts;

Whereas, Buffalo would still be responsible for the maintenance of the two current buildings, as well as the replacement building, depending on the terms agreed upon by city and county;

Whereas, BECPL’s own Guidelines for New Library Construction assert, "The board cannot approve of any proposed project that might enhance the quality of library services in one area at the expense of another.", and this rule is clearly broken by the closing of two or more branches in two separate neighborhoods to open only one for one neighborhood;

Whereas, BECPL’s own $38,000 survey by Insight & Associates concluded that, " A bigger, brighter, more technically excellent facility a mile away is little use to a student doing homework everyday close to home."

Whereas, the proposed consolidation plan is, instead, clearly a
downgrade in services, with the replacement facility being smaller than the current combined square footage, having one less meeting room, only one hour of service per week than currently, and the same technology as all BECPL branches;

Whereas, the proposed South Buffalo "hub" facility is to be 12,000 square feet for a population of over 40,000, while the new Clarence library has 17,000 square feet, for a population of 20,000;

Whereas, the $2.5 million is not sufficient to build a large enough
facility to serve the South Buffalo population of 40,000, since the 20,000 population Clarence library cost $3,400,000, and the 7,630 square foot Akron library, with a population of 7,440 cost $2,900,000;

Whereas, the Clarence library has over 71,000 volumes in its collection for a population of 20,000, while the two South Buffalo contain a total of 43,000 some volumes for a population of over 40,000;

Whereas, it is therefore clear that Buffalo libraries are already not
receiving equal services to some libraries outside the city of Buffalo;

Whereas, BECPL documents prove that, in 2000, after 22 hearings with thousands of participants, and after receiving 10,000 signatures opposing consolidation on petitions, BECPL decided against the plan to consolidate 22 BECPL libraries;

Whereas, since 2000, many communities have again rejected a piecemeal version of this consolidation plan, including North Buffalo, Tonawanda, West Falls, and Marilla;

Whereas, the majority of recorded comment opposes library
consolidation, as evidenced by over 2,500 signatures on petitions opposing library consolidation in 2003;

Therefore, be it resolved, that this body opposes the consolidation of any of the 15 Buffalo libraries which are part of the BECPL system;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body opposes closing of any of Buffalo’s 15 libraries, except when replacing one building with one new building with clearly enhanced services, as in the case of the new North Jefferson library to be built;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body officially opposes the closing/consolidation of any BECPL libraries, both Buffalo and outside of Buffalo, for the benefit of all Buffalo and Erie County citizens;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body will recommend that its members be involved in opposing the closing/consolidation of Buffalo’s Public libraries, including writing letters to authorities to support saving neighborhood libraries;

Therefore, be it further resolved, that this body agrees that a Buffalo Library Board should be created to reverse the inequity caused by the lack of Buffalo representation in BECPL.

BF

[Night Owl]

WOW
Great find & post BuffaloFamily!

[buffalofamily]

The message is LOUD & CLEAR in all of WNY. Leave our local libraries alone. Yet, they are trying to push it through.

STILL--NO ANSWERS from those who are accountable. SHAME ON THE County Exec., County Legislator, and Library Board of Trustees!

LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE

BF

[Night Owl]

Just a little something I found on the Metro Community News Website under South Buffalo. In the heading 'Blow off your steam' there were several comments about the South Buffalo Libraries.


Angela, South Buffalo: In response to "Sue" from South Buffalo. The main issue which separated Griffin and Martino on election day was the building of a new library. Griffin against it, Martino for it. Griffin won by a landslide. The people of South Buffalo have spoken. The vindictive tone of your letter reminds me of someone. Griffin won fair and square and the people of South Buffalo don't want any part of whatever pay-off game certain has-been politicians are playing regarding our libraries. Carlitta, South Buffalo: What is going on with these local library meetings? Are they supposed to be open to the public? If you are so lucky as to find them when you get there it is so slanted toward their agenda. And you are not allowed to ask any questions. That is just not right, since we may not all feel like we want to lose our neighborhood library. If they mean invited "only if you share our opinion" then we would all understand not to dare show our faces because we think and are not swayed by a small number of self imposed nobodies who want to take away everything.

Charles, South Buffalo: We must keep Caz and Dudley right where they are. They both serve both communities and are both necessary for both neighborhoods. Hasn't there been enough taken away from us? Libraries are needed, they are essential for all of us. We should all remember the politicians who wanted the library consolidation. After all, they work for us. This is a really bad idea.

Sean, South Buffalo: In response to Sue of South Buffalo regarding the ongoing petition drive. Go tell all the folks who signed the petition to save our South Buffalo libraries that their opinions don't count. Your own library advocate stated to the Buffalo and Erie County Board of Trustees that it took them three and a half weeks to go over the petitions. They say 33 percent weren't valid, which means 2,000-plus are valid. It's typical Mary Martino and Mark Schroeder tactics not to abide by the wishes of the residents. To the 3,000-plus people who signed the petition, I say thank you and please continue to fight to keep Cazenovia and Dudley libraries open. Clearly, the people like Sue are playing politics by counting every signature line by line like they were election petitions. This is the sad and dirty political tricks that are causing these libraries to close. Don't stick Jimmy Griffin with the task of finding a use for empty buildings. He's for saving the existing facilities. That would save the taxpayers millions of dollars while keeping our neighborhood libraries open and strong.

Susan, South Buffalo: I still find it hard to believe that with all of Erie County's financial woes such as the cuts in fire and police departments that the library board is still pushing a one-for-two deal with library consolidation. One has to wonder if there is more going on than what meets the eye? The library board has even admitted that their budget is tight. But still the push is on to throw good money after a bad idea. We must take a stand against the one-for-two bad deal that they are trying to force down our throats. We should all call our elected officials and speak out against this bad deal.

Dolores, South Buffalo: In response to Sue. Every signature on the petition to save our libraries counts as good except for the one person who asked us to take her name off because she said the library was threatening her friend's job. You're part of a tiny clique that wants to close our libraries and because of that you're spreading misinformation. The petition was a public opinion poll, not a political petition. It says right on the top that it's for Buffalo, South Buffalo and friends, which means everybody's signature is good. The signer from Kentucky, the one signer from Kentucky, probably came from here anyway. The majority were from South Buffalo and collected in South Buffalo, but it's Erie County taxpayers who would pay for a hub library and it would be a county library. Why don't you tell the truth. Now the few friends of the nonexistent library are talking about closing Caz and Dudley and putting the new library near the First Ward - entirely out of both our neighborhoods. If they close our two and build there, we'll have no library. Then none of our kids will be able to walk to a library.

Laurel, South Buffalo: Three thousand signatures do mean something. By the way, why is it a nobody gets hold of information and is allowed to look it over. The nobody's opinion does not count and simply does not matter to anyone anyhow. And, yes, we will continue to talk to Jim Griffin because he is a people person and will continue to do what is right for the people. Two more vacant buildings in South Buffalo is not what we need. Two libraries that service two communities are what we need. So stop being selfish, if it's a job you are after just wait and you can stand in line with the people who will get laid off from the library. If you have done your math you could have figured that one out.

metro community news website (http://www.metrocommunitynews.com/steam/index.pl?cid=25)

[Curmudgeon]

I've said it before: The B&ECPL is a giant, wasteful, bloated bureaucracy with way too many branches and employees.

You want to ensure you keep your libraries? Ask that your libraries be removed from the system. Fund them with a special tax assessment district in the neighborhoods they serve. Then you can hire as many people as you like and keep it open for 24 hours a day for all I care. Then your libraries will truly be "your own" paid for by "your tax money".

In fact, I'd like to see the B&ECPL either disbanded completely or downsized to the point of just being an agency with a few employees that keep a central index of all the books of the "affiliated libraries" and facilitate purchasing/movement of books.

Time to get rid of that dinosaur. Let each community fund their own libraries.

[Night Owl]

I'd like to see the B&ECPL either disbanded completely or downsized to the point of just being an agency with a few employees that keep a central index

What you’re asking for an almost complete dismantling of a community service to the city of Buffalo that has been around for nearly 167 years.

This is not my own wording or personal opinion, I am quoting directly from an original B&ECPL document that says:
“As specified by the 1953 New York State Law, the B&ECPL is a legally constituted, federated system serving both the city of Buffalo and Erie County.”

IMO- honestly and from what I quoted above; it just won’t happen in the way you’ve suggested.

[Curmudgeon]

What you’re asking for an almost complete dismantling of a community service to the city of Buffalo that has been around for nearly 167 years.

Yes. "But that's the way we've always done it" is about the worst possible excuse for not changing something that is broken.

I am quoting directly from an original B&ECPL document that says:
When discussing dissolving any agency, pointing to agency documents is no help whatsoever.


IMO- honestly and from what I quoted above; it just won’t happen in the way you’ve suggested.
Well, perhaps I can stir things up. What does B&ECPL do that individual libraries can't do for themselves? Nothing except move money around and consume resources. Each library should have its own funding and and be responsible to the people that use it. Facilities maintainence should be handled as any other municipal building is.

“As specified by the 1953 New York State Law, the B&ECPL is a legally constituted, federated system serving both the city of Buffalo and Erie County.”

Federated?? B&ECPL is a giant, centralized bureaucracy! My model is more "federated" than the stalinist cesspool the B&ECPL is today. We are in the information age - why do we need all these people?

[Night Owl]

Federated??
As I said, it was a quote from an original B&ECPL document, not my own words.

Each library should have its own funding and and be responsible to the people that use it.
actually that is the way it is done in every other location of Erie County except for the city of Buffalo. Lancaster, Cheektowaga and etc all have their own library board to do all of that, but the city of Buffalo is determined by the Erie County Board and not its own.

[sbGUY27]

167 years ? The US constitution has been ratified more in that time than this library thing. 167 years is a long time to do things one way. Times cahnge and that is wht you WNYer's fail to see.

[buffalofamily]

The 2 successful libraries in South Buffalo and other Buffalo neighborhoods are a community asset. They should be preserved as neighborhood assets, as they were intended. Why spend (waste) $2,500,000.00 + city contribution of at least $500.000.00 on ONLY 1 smaller library that may not even service the two communities in which existing facilities operate.

Libraries are not a tax burden. The System as it is, has done an excellent job even in these toughest of times. Why fix something that ain't broke??? Why give up 2 libraries that are working well??? Why is the County so anxious to build and mantain new facilities when efficient and well used libraries already exist???

Change is good. Changes and modern technology have been introduced in ALL of the libraries, both city and suburban. Our BECPL system has changed with the times. The message is clear! Don't downgrade services in Buffalo.

Face it, consolidation of this service is a downgrade. It would bring nothing new but a building, paid for by you and me, while closing 2 libraries.

BF

[buffalofamily]

Supporters Rally to Save Libraries
An overflow crowd rallied with ALA President Maurice Freedman to launch his Campaign to Save America’s Libraries initiative. Freedman, whose own library is facing cuts, spoke to the urgent need for those who understand the value of libraries to protect them during an economic downturn, then invited librarians, trustees, and other supporters—representatives from all types of libraries from Washington to Massachusetts to Florida—to share personal stories of the ways their operations have been impacted by recent budget cuts.
“We understand that libraries are competing with programs ranging from basic human services to those combating the threat of domestic terrorism,” Freedman said. “But we know that our libraries are valuable far beyond the books contained within them. . . . Libraries are fundamental to our democracy and to our communities.
“Libraries are too frequently taken for granted and overlooked when funding decisions are made and now those funding decisions are cutting too close to the bone.” Noting the fact that as the economy goes down, library use goes up, Freedman pointed out that “reducing funding to all of these libraries hurts everyone, but reducing funding to libraries hurts low-income families, new immigrants, and seniors especially hard.”
“When we save our libraries,” Freedman concluded, “we must ensure that the funding is adequate to save the library’s single most valuable resource, the library staff.”
Friends of Libraries USA President Lana Porter added that it was critical that librarians “know you have partners in your concern. . . . We know how important you are,” she said.
Referring to the diminishing funding to libraries in Iowa, state library trustee Dale Ross borrowed a line from Howard Beal in the movie Network: “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore!”
“What we are facing across this country is devastating to our profession,” said ALA President-elect Carla Hayden, “and yet I see the energy and the drive that we need to save America’s libraries.”
Hayden offered advice from her experience as executive director of the Enoch Pratt Free Library in Baltimore, which has been hit with cuts—“like the proverbial canary in the coal mine”—since 1997.
Be prepared, even if you think budget cuts aren’t coming your way, she warned. Get to know state legislators and reward those who have been helpful. Keep library users informed and hold a local rally if you can. Finally, go to the media and tell them what’s happening at your library.
“We have a right to mobilize,” Hayden concluded. “We don’t have to be quiet anymore. We’re here to make sure . . . that America’s libraries survive and that they thrive—it’s in your job description.”

[buffalofamily]

The proponents of the consolidated library proposal are touting the "NEW" library as a "World Class Library" for South Buffalo.

HMMMMM.....
Do you think they can squeeze in Millions of books like other "World Class Libraries" ???

Here is an example of World Class Libraries and the amount of book resources they offer:

1. Library of Congress - 24 Million
2. National Library of China - 20 Million
3. National Library of Canada - 16 Million
4. Deutsche Bibliothek, Germany - 15.9 Million
5. British Library - 15 Million

I would consider changing my view on consolidation, if a true "World Class Library" was the "Offer", but I don't think the tiny 12,000 Square Foot option will fit the bill as "World Class"

At the size it would be, it would be a second rate "hub" and nothing more than we already have. Lets save Millions of dollars and spend far less by fixing all our branch services. Most only need very minor repairs.

BF

[citymouse]

This is a project of the utmost importance. When it is finished it will be the perfect backdrop for photographs of various politicians campaign literature. A kind of "see I get things done" picture.

[Night Owl]

Thanks for the information Buffalo Family.

[Night Owl]

city mouse,

This is a topic that appears to be just as you said. What began as "we have to close one of the libraries in South Buffalo" to a $4 million proposal if you close both branches, to a 2.5 million dollar (so called) "state of the art" consolidated branch and lastly to "a world class library"

It's the 'ever-changing modifications' of Joel's razzle-dazzle plan. :D

[Night Owl]

Printed paper; at the taxpayer’s expense?
LINK: The heat is on: News of the South Buffalo Libraries fires up residents once more. (http://www.speakupwny.com/article_780.shtml)

Gail Block, member of the Interim Committee said at last Thursday’s board of trustees meeting “Everything’s going great. We wanna thank you very much for printing up all them fliers. We got them going out. We really appreciate you for helping us out.”

Her statement during the public comment session thanked the library board for making copies of the their leaflets...

[citymouse]

I know it is not like me, but I have not had much to say about this issue.
I do live in the area and as a student ( many,many, many years ago) patronized the dudley librarary. I remember when they built it. They had a temporary one in a store front across the street in what is now a parking lot.
I supose an argument could be made, with the closing of Holy Family School,that usage will be down at Dudley, but then again the students in the area can still walk there from there homes.
It appears to me that most of the people who disagree with keeping both open are people who don't live here. How many suburban people let thier children walk anywhere let alone the library? Maybe they don't understand. One of the reasons people who chose to live in South Buffalo do so because they don't have to drive thier kids every where. It is a plus to be able to walk most places.
In this cold weather it's one thing to walk five blocks to a library after school as opposed to ten or twelve. Couldn't they renovate and modernize both facilities at much less then closing them and building a new one? We have enough vacant buildings with out adding two more.
Where do they intend to put it, and are most people in favor of one library? I know I am not amd I get the sense most people affected by it don't like it either.
I also sense it is a done deal.

[Night Owl]

Couldn't they renovate and modernize both facilities at much less then closing them and building a new one?

This question has been raised many times throughout the past two years, and the answer is always the same: the 2.5 million is reserved for construction of one new library branch if two are closed. The available money is to be used as it was proposed; only for just a new building, nothing more.

Where do they intend to put it,

A site has not been sellected yet. The Interim Committee for a new Library has meetings scheduled to get community ideas for a 'central' location of South Buffalo. There aren't any blueprints to show the public what the new library will look like. The are no arrangements that have been made as to which construction company is going to build it and it's the city's task to find optional usage for the empty building (Caz & Dudley).

are most people in favor of one library?

It depends on who you ask. A lot of people are in awe over a new 2.5 million dollar building.

But on the flip side, a larger majority are either undecided or just think it's a bad deal. The petitions that were submitted to the B&ECPL board says more than 3,000 residents oppose the consolidation. 95% of the signatures are from people who live in South Buffalo, who use the two branches on a weekly basis and/or have lived in the area and don't want to see them closed for one new library.

I also sense it is a done deal.

Quite the opposite actually. In Giambra's letter to the Library board, he said that it has to be a community decission. The communities of South Buffalo are not in total agreement to this, and so the 'deal' remains open until there is a resolution.

One of the main entities Jimmy Griffin campaigned on was saving these two branches from closing. He speaks often at the board meetings and is totally against the proposal.

Well, it seems I have went on a little much with this reply. :D I wanted to make sure I answered some of the questions you've had... everything is factual based and not of my own personal opinion. There are many articles on the SpeakupWNY News Page that explain more of the library debate.

If you have more questions, you can post them here or request my email adreess from the Admin of this site. Either way, I'll be more than happy to talk with you on this topic.

[citymouse]

Thank you N.O. I really hadn't paying that close attention.
It seems stupid to me to have so much money targeted for one thing that might not be needed, when you could probably upgrade more than two libraries with that kind of money.
I guess that is one of the problems of goverment funding, shortsigtedness.

[Night Owl]

I guess that is one of the problems of goverment funding, shortsigtedness.

naw, just foolish spending and tabacco money ;)

[citymouse]

Tobacco money? I thought Joel sent that all up in smoke.

[Night Owl]

from the Development section of the News Page
LINK: a ‘World-Class’ Library for South Buffalo??? (http://www.speakupwny.com/article_756.shtml)

The two and a half million dollar “project will be funded through capital funds derived from the County’s tobacco settlement proceeds or bonded (borrowed) capital funds. A combination of both sources is also possible”. Says Library director, Michael Mahaney in a December 26th, 2003 letter to a member of the Interim Committee.

He also said in the letter, typed on official B&ECPL letterhead “All public discussion has indicated that the new library will be a minimum of 12,000 square feet in size. A larger structure might be possible depending on site, design and available funds.”

[buffalofamily]

It will be time to dump the county rep in South Buffalo if this project gets dumped on the taxpayers.

His term is up in 2005 folks. Keep that in mind.

How dare they try to take away services from South Buffalo folk. They need to build TWO new libraries AT LEAST!!!

Buffalofamily

[Curmudgeon]

How dare they try to take away services from South Buffalo folk. They need to build TWO new libraries AT LEAST!!!

Yes. how about 10. or 30. or however many YOU think.

[citymouse]

I am in favor of it if they really are going to build a "world class" library in South Buffalo.
I was at the Prince Charles Royal Library in London, the only "world class" library I have ever been to. It took over 15 years to build and takes up about three of our city blocks, and the larger part is located under ground.
If they are going "world class". I am all for it. If they are using the term to build another branch of the county book deposit just to fool the public into another public works\private contract give-away then I am not in favor of it.



What do you think?

[Night Owl]

If they are using the term to build another branch of the county book deposit just to fool the public into another public works\private contract give-away then I am not in favor of it.

That is how it's being done, citymouse.

Editorial: B&ECPL: the Buffalo & Erie County ‘Politicians’ Library? (http://www.speakupwny.com/article_831.shtml)

Unlike the 'save the whales' group who look for money to fund their projects The Save our Libraries people ask for nothing to help awareness and opposition of the proposed plan.

The interim committee is, on the other hand a side group that's funded in part by a politician and the B&ECPL via fliers and etc. to promote the new library.

There's no possible way that a World-class library can be built with a 2 and a half million dollar budget... at least not like the world class in London that you've described.

If it really is going to be 'world class'... I wonder why the President of the United States hasn't come to little ole South Buffalo to support it :p

[Night Owl]

The image attached is part of an 11 X 5 1/2 inch (over sized)postcard being sent out to the people in South Buffalo via bulk rate postal mail.

The library director says they are not part of what the Interim Committee does, but still supports what they do to help with getting the new library pushed through (of course that was a paraphrase) which in real terms - it means the B&ECPL supports misleading the public.

Another thing, the bulk rate permit number belongs to one of our elected officials.

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by Night Owl
it means the B&ECPL supports misleading the public.
Another thing, the bulk rate permit number belongs to one of our elected officials.

Now, lets see...... The B&ECPL is misleading the public by saying they Support a group which is interested in getting what we deserve not what someone else thinks we should have built? You say they are in bed together on this issue? Seems to me your misleading those that read this board. Fact... the county is building a new library and closing down the two that exist! Fact...A small group of people who have "seen the light" have come together to effort a facility that will work for SB... Fact...this elected official realizes this group is willing to work with the county in the design and selection of a sight and he will fight to get what we want.... Oh, and the last fact is your off you rocker!!!

[citymouse]

It seems like much ado about nothing.
What is the problem with what we have now?
what is the cost involved in building a new library?
How does that compare in cost to updating the old?
Who wants a new one and who dosen't (percentage of residents wise)?
Now the people who live on Abbott have to walk to South Park or Seneca. Will South park and Seneca have to walk to Abbott road?
Who walks any where any more anyway?
In light of city and in this case county finances, shouldn't we do what is most cost effective?
Should we spend anything at all?
Inquiring minds want to know.

[Night Owl]

The B&ECPL is misleading the public by saying they Support a group which is interested in getting what we deserve not what someone else thinks we should have built?

What you said makes no sense.

This is the scoop- The B&ECPL and the Interim Committee are the only two 'groups' whom are looking to gain residential support from each other. (no need to put sexual context in the mix) The interim committee is misleading with the statement: 'What do we want in a World-Class library for South Buffalo?'

Seems to me your misleading those that read this board.

Impossible, because I have a letter from Michael Mahaney the library Director whom says he supports what the interim committee is doing. But there is not proof whatsoever that South Buffalo will get a 'world class' library.

Fact... the county is building a new library and closing down the two that exist!

not quite. the county executive offered to build a new library IF the residents agree to give up too libraries for a new one. I have a copy of the proposal that was sent to the B&ECPL stating such a fact. Until there's an agreement made or Giambra revolkes his offer then it still stands as NOT a done-deal.

Fact...A small group of people who have "seen the light" have come together to effort a facility that will work for SB...

partially right, it is a small group. But in my mind they have only seen the dollar signs of 2 and a half million. It's also the same group (interim committee) who attempted to keep some South Buffalo residents from attending 'their' meetings. FACT- one group (backed by the B&ECPL) doesn't decide for the entire south buffalo communities as per Mr. Giambra's original agreement.

Fact...this elected official realizes this group is willing to work with the county in the design and selection of a sight and he will fight to get what we want

not really. This democrat official is just looking to shine the shoes for a republican. He lacks the know-how of baring in mind all of the residents in the areas he represents. Like I said, a small group doesn't decide for a whole section of the city.

Oh, and the last fact is your off you rocker!!!

Yep, you got it... off my rocker and sitting at public meetings to hear what's being said. Perhaps you should consider attending a meeting or two.

[Night Owl]

citymouse,

What is the problem with what we have now?

nothing. The two branches are up to code, and very well maintained.

what is the cost involved in building a new library?

2.5 million -- nobody knows how much of it is going to go in to payroll though.

How does that compare in cost to updating the old?

That's a figure that's been tough in getting an answer for. I do know that it will only take $10,000 the make Cazenovia handicap accessible. An actual estimate from an engineer who checked into it about 2 years ago.

Who wants a new one and who dosen't (percentage of residents wise)?

The B&ECPL director says he have losts on people in favor of the new library, but nothing solid to stand on. One the other hand, the save our libraries group turned over a petition with more than 3,000 signatures on it of those whom are opposed.

Now the people who live on Abbott have to walk to South Park or Seneca. Will South park and Seneca have to walk to Abbott road?

That was one option, a few staff at the library said 'they're looking at building on Heacock park'. But I thought Heacock was Olmstead land which can't be redesigned; at least that is why the Cazenovia can't be expaned.

Who walks any where any more anyway?

There are quite a few people who still walk to the two branches. The are both in residential nieghborhoods.

In light of city and in this case county finances, shouldn't we do what is most cost effective?

of course we should silly :) that's why so many are opposed. The common council seems to think so as well.

Should we spend anything at all?

most are saying just spend what needs fixing and leave the two open. use the remaining money on other branches in the city.

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by Night Owl
[B]Oh, and the last fact is your off you rocker!!!

Yep, you got it... off my rocker and sitting at public meetings to hear what's being said. Perhaps you should consider attending a meeting or two.

First...I know I have it! 2nd I will be at "a" meeting with "plans" for something the County said we "are going to get! 3rd..I think maybe you should really stop using the term "World Class" in your posts. Your idea and someone else's idea of "World Class" can be and are different. This is SB not Toronto! Take the time to come up with a plan.....don't trash a group that is trying to get better than what the county wants to give....2.5 could be 3.5 with their effort? Don't go to the meetings unless you have something construtive to say....stop antagonizing (sp) people!

[Curmudgeon]

"world class" libraries are found in "world class" cities and neighborhoods. SB is neither. You want a "world class" library, move your butt to a "World class" city and buy a world class house nearby...

What SB needs and deserves is a efficient, low maintainence neighborhood library that has a decent selection of books and other sources of information provided at a reasonable and sustainable price for the foreseeable future. It should be staffed with a minimum of people and be energy efficient with decent parking. It doesn't have to look like the supreme court building or cost a lot of money. And, it should have a DECENT ROOF! one that won't have to be re-roofed for about 40 years.

Your 2 libraries are old and will probably need major work in the next 10 years. Put 'em out to pasture and move on to the 21st century.

Oh, and by all means, be ALL OVER the job to ensure it's done right at a reasonable cost. If the B&ECPL knows there's 300 "project managers" out there, they will be more inclined to see the job done right with no funny buisiness.

Things are going to change with your libraries. Be part of it or get shut out. Your choice......

[Night Owl]

I think maybe you should really stop using the term "World Class" in your posts.

'world class' is a term being used by the Interim committee that is being sent out via mail or visiting the library. I am not part of the interim committee. I am using their 'TERM'; the Interim committee is publisizing it that way. They are misleading not I.

View: interim committee's flier to the public (http://www.speakupwny.com/artman/uploads/world.jpg)

don't trash a group that is trying to get better than what the county wants to give

um okay... let's not forget the fact that it's the county that's looking to give it. It's one thing to have high hopes but it's another when someone else is footing the bill. The county is looking to put up 2 and a half mill in bonded money, that we all of the residents in Erie County will have to pay back via higher property taxes. This is not a gift from the county executive.

2nd I will be at "a" meeting with "plans" for something the County said we "are going to get!

The county never guaranteed anything, it was just a proposal sent by Mr. Giambra.

2.5 could be 3.5 with their effort

The plan has already dropped from $4 million, why would then go up if the amount has been lowered once? 2.5 million in construction of a new library, nothing more.

Don't go to the meetings unless you have something construtive to say....stop antagonizing (sp) people!

saying nothing at a public meeting is hardly antagonizing.

[Night Owl]

"world class" libraries are found in "world class" cities and neighborhoods. SB is neither.

Thank you, Curmudgeon. you posted before my reply was finished. I'll say the same. I am not part of the interim committee who is misleading the public by saying the new South Buffalo library is going to be world-class. View the link in my previous post. This is misrepresentation that the B&ECPL is supporting.

[Night Owl]

low maintainence neighborhood library that has a decent selection of books and other sources of information provided at a reasonable and sustainable price for the foreseeable future.

PS-
These are essential entities that the B&ECPL already provides to the ALL of the libraries. MR. Giambra's proposal is for the cost of constrution only. What goes into the new library is the respondsibilty of the B&ECPL.

let me break it down this way:
Giambra- bricks and morter -2.5 mill
people- books and computers & stuff -2.5 mill

what the county executive is offereing and what the people are thinking are two entirely different things.

It doesn't have to look like the supreme court building or cost a lot of money. And, it should have a DECENT ROOF!

you are right on two things, bigger isn't always better and a good roof is a must. Which they both have had replaced recently.

[buffalofamily]

CRUM SEZ:

And, it should have a DECENT ROOF! one that won't have to be re-roofed for about 40 years.

Cazenovia has a newer roof. It was completed in 1995. It was the FIRST replacement of a roof on that structure in 75 YEARS!!!

The less than 10 year old library in Cheektowaga was closed last year for 2 months to replace the roof. NEWER IS NOT BETTER.

BF

[buffalofamily]

CHUM SEZ:

What SB needs and deserves is a efficient, low maintainence neighborhood library that has a decent selection of books and other sources of information provided at a reasonable and sustainable price for the foreseeable future.
WE HAVE THAT NOW WITH CAZ AND DUDLEY

It has been proven that building the new library would be a HUGE cost to the taxpayers in comparison to minor upkeep of the existing locations.

Keep what we have now and save the taxpayers MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!!!!!!!!

BF

[citymouse]

Ok.
Curum, South Buffalo is a world class nieghborhood to those of us who live here. Get used to it.
I wasn't the one who introduced the term world class and I only used it to show how stupid the term sounded when used to describe a nieghborhood branch library.

From the answers I got to the questions I asked, I don't think building a new library is a good idea. It seems like a big waste of money. Once they do it they will probably shorten the hours and reduce the staff because of budget problems anyway.

[Night Owl]

The public hearings hosted by the Interim Committee are not official B&ECPL meetings. This newly formed group was set up to aid in the thoughts of a new library; but instead they are using misleading information with the help of a politician to produce something that will most definately not occur. If anything it's a 'world-class lie'.

Oh, and citymouse. It's been stated on more than one occasion this week from various sources that the East Clinton and Mead Branches are also considered as 'South Buffalo' libraries. I have the distinct feeling two additional east side libraries will be merged as per the plan back in 2000 when this started as a 4-for-1 deal.

Have you heard? what are your thoughts?

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
Keep what we have now and save the taxpayers MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!!!!!!!! BF

There is no money for the up keep of either....Save the tax payer millions of dollars....continue to go to antiquated and non functional buildings? Let's build a world class library.... Look it's time to move on.....there will be no tax hike.....They will force a new library in SB (like it or not), We can get what we want and need, and you are antagonists, these meetings are not to discuss the the left side or the right side.....it's to discuss what we would like to see built, what we deserve! Go to the board with your concerns not to these meetings unless you are going to contribute.......to the process.

[WNYresident]

The library issue should be dead by now. THe ones they have are not costing as much as the politicians would like you to believe as a new "World Class" library would cost. It's almost like saying your used car is going to need LOTS of maintance so lets go by a expensive SUV. They fail to mention the SUV payments would far exceed the repair cost of the already owned car.

Why not build a empire/national steel building we see on TV commercials in the same spot as the old libraies? Demolish the old libraries and build in the same spot. You don't have to spend millions to have functionality. Same goes with police head quarters, or other governmental buildings. It's my opinion but it seems they build these over costly buildings to give the jobs to thier political contributors.... :) Anyone say bribes?

[Curmudgeon]

They're not going to get a "World Class" library, whatever that is. They're going to get a 12,000 sq ft building that is appropriate for their neighborhood, 2 older buildings, and some staff that are no longer needed. That is what consolidation is all about. Sounds good to me. One lawn to mow - one sidewalk to shovel...

[Night Owl]

The library issue should be dead by now.

In April of 2003 the library board accepted the county executive's offer under the conditions that it would be a community-based decission. Over the past 10 months alterations have been made to this process and it has come down to misleading representation from the Interim committee; which is supported by the B&ECPL director.

The term 'World-Class' is as much a fairy-tale as Peter-Pan. Sure, there's no harm in dreaming, but even now and then reality has to play a part.

It's been said by the library director that bonded funds may be used to fund this project. Bonded funds are borrowed funds that the county will acquire up front, and the tax paying residents will have to pay it back. Intentionally, this was to be a present to the South Buffalo communities- but a gift with strings attached is hardly a gift, especially when county money is involved.

As far as there not being any money to fund the current braches, that is a lie. The B&ECPL has sufficient funding available to continue running the Cazenovia and Dudley libraries as with all of city branches. They do have the money in their budget.

Another note to coinside with the post before yours, WNYresident. In a letter from Mr. Mahaney He states:
'These are not official B&ECPL meetings'

So yes, this remains a discussion of 'right and left' because the Interim Committee is a 'left' side and the Save our Libraries group is a 'right' side... there's two 'sides' to every story.

This makes for a broader perspective in reading.
LINK: B&ECPL: the Buffalo & Erie County ‘Politicians’ Library? (http://www.speakupwny.com/article_831.shtml)

WNYresident, you should attend a public meeting or two to further gain understanding why the South Buffalo Library is still an occurring debate. Moreso, when residents opposed to the process are instructed to take their concerns the library board and not at 'one sided' community meetings, it kinda gives the indication that 'public' comments at a 'public' hearing will only be heard if it's something one side wants to hear... in this, a 'public' decission.

[Curmudgeon]

The B&ECPL has sufficient funding available to continue running the Cazenovia and Dudley libraries as with all of city branches. They do have the money in their budget.

Every city & county department should have their "budget" reduced. If this occurred, WNY would no longer have the highest taxes. Just because somebody has allocated a lot of money to a program in the past doesn't mean it should continue!

A classic example of "magical thinking" when it comes to the money tree.....

[WNYresident]

Curm.

I'm as cheap as the rest of them but I dont think the libraries are the issue were all the tax money is going. The old libraries should stay seeing they are used. There's far more important needless things that cuts can be made. Salaries are one of them for starters... :)

[Night Owl]

Just because somebody has allocated a lot of money to a program in the past doesn't mean it should continue!

In a round about way that's what the save our libraries group has been saying all along; but in this case no money (zero, ziltch, nothing, nah dah) for any 'library project' has been allocated anywhere; city or county.

If this occurred, WNY would no longer have the highest taxes.

You're right on avoiding the occurrences of highering taxes. FYI, the new library for South Buffalo will do just that - raise taxes, bonded funds will be used to pay for the construction only and the taxpayers will have to pay all two and a half million dollars back (with interest, I would imagine). All of this while the city maintains the financial respondsibility (sp?) of the two empty buildings.

Time to lower the taxes for the residents in Western New York, don't you think?

Yes taxes will increase, and if they don't then there will be some other new-fangled (fee) tax added somewhere along the lines to pay back what the county will borrow to have the new library built.

Did you know people in Cheektowaga, Amherst, Lancaster and ect. are part of the process? This is an Erie County project, which means residents in all places throughout Erie County will have to pay for the new South Buffalo Branch. You wanna talk about how people are getting boned with high taxes, this is a perfect example to look at instead of scorning the ones trying to stop it.

It isn't the B&ECPL asking for the 'consolidation'... it is the county executive looking to spend money that the county doesn't have.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it right?
If it's gonna produce more taxes, don't fight it???

I hear so many people talking about what the community deserves, how will a new building change that? Do you know?

IMO- a new 'county constructed' building won't make or break the quality of 'service' that the B&ECPL is accountable for.

[buffalofamily]

NIGHT OWL SEZ:

In a round about way that's what the save our libraries group has been saying all along; but in this case no money (zero, ziltch, nothing, nah dah) for any 'library project' has been allocated anywhere; city or county.

Yes, we heard last night that no money has been allocated for said project, but bonds would have to be sold at the taxpayers expense. Yes, the same taxpayers who think this is a gift from the county.

South Buffalo should keep 2 fine locations, and make them better, instead of wasting tax dollars.

BF

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by Night Owl
[B][B] All of this while the city maintains the financial respondsibility (sp?) of the two empty buildings.
Yes taxes will increase, and if they don't then there will be some other new-fangled (fee) tax added somewhere along the lines to pay back what the county will borrow to have the new library built.
You wanna talk about how people are getting boned with high taxes, this is a perfect example to look at instead of scorning the ones trying to stop it.

It isn't the B&ECPL asking for the 'consolidation'... it is the county executive looking to spend money that the county doesn't have.

I hear so many people talking about what the community deserves, how will a new building change that? Do you know?


Your points are good, taxes should be lowered, we should not spend money we don't have. Programed money for improvements, bonds for improvements, it happens everyday!

One of the things that should be brought to the interim group is that there be a new owner for the Caz building before construction begins on a new facility! Make suggestions!

I'm sure the county exec. is not looking to spend money that's not there but looking to save money in the long run. Right now the city could not repair anything at either branch if something were to go wrong! What then? Old and Out Dated! vs New And Improved!

What would a new building do? What happens when you buy new clothes, new house, new car....you feel good about your self. Come up with some plans, present them to the interim comm. so you too can be included in the final draft!:)

[WNYresident]

I'm sure the county exec. is not looking to spend money that's not there but looking to save money in the long run. Right now the city could not repair anything at either branch if something were to go wrong! What then? Old and Out Dated! vs New And Improved!

You must work for the company that builds new libraries. 2.5 million is lot of money and lets see the payback time. IF it's 30 years then it's no good seeing the politicians will be looking to replace hte new library again.




What happens when you buy new clothes, new house, new car....you feel good about your self.

You end up have a giant credit crad monkey on your back. I'm still lost when you look at people that don't have any savings what so ever but have a 200,000 home, new SUV and credits maxed.

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by WNYresident
You must work for the company that builds new libraries. 2.5 million is lot of money and lets see the payback time. IF it's 30 years then it's no good seeing the politicians will be looking to replace hte new library again.

No, I have just come to the realization that we "are" going to get the new library, as well as many others. It's time to put your efforts into building something new! Insure that there is a suitable company that will take over the building at caz so it won't remain empty like the rest of Seneca St.! Work together to get what we need and want, this is like next week it....It's coming, lets be ready for it. I doubt this is a 30 year bond! What happened to the tabacco money you all were insisting on was going to pay for this?

[WNYresident]

The tabacco money wasn't earmarked for a new library.

We'll will get new library because we allow the people in office to to do so. It's time to start looking at hte spending in a responsible way.

[Night Owl]

Right now the city could not repair anything at either branch if something were to go wrong!

Yes the city can do emergency/up keep repairs as needed with these and any of the city branches. One of the misconceptions people have with the control board is many seem to picture it as the that guy on 'seifeld' the one at the deli that says... 'no! nothin for you'.

Money can still flow through the city and state on the the things that are needed and not what's just wanted.

Old and Out Dated! vs New And Improved!

Newer isn't always better, the reinstein (sp?) branch built about 9 years ago was closed just last year for 2 months to replace a leaking roof.

It's coming, lets be ready for it.

I won't mark your words, because discussions are far from over on this isse.

What would a new building do?

Um, my guess would be a place to borrow books and materials. A place to do research and homework. That's what we already have or am I wrong? Do we not already have what a 'library' is intended for... books on shelves, friendly staff and large, comfortable furnature?

---------------------

The tabacco money wasn't earmarked for a new library.

I was assumed a few years back tobacco money would be used, when the first proposal included closing 4 branches for a $4 million library. Two were in South Buffalo and two were on the East side that would have been consolidated into one.

That has since changed, now it's 2.5 for the two branches.

[buffalofamily]

Great points Night Owl,

In addition, it's foolish for some South Buffalo residents to not make an educated informed decision.

The residents would have to give up 2 great libraries is exchange for a proposal that so far has provided NO DETAILS!

A small group is pushing it forward with the help of a county official and the B&ECPL Trustees and officials.

It's just like Giambra's bigger proposal of consolidation Buffalo with Erie County. "Big talk plan", with ZERO details.

YUK !!!

Buffalo Family

[buffalofamily]

Still no details about this lousey deal. How can the residents of South Buffalo let these liars take away their services.

The only thing the county officials have provided is LIES!

BF

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
Still no details about this lousey deal. How can the residents of South Buffalo let these liars take away their services.

The only thing the county officials have provided is LIES!

BF

I can see Seneca and Caz sporting a big new beautiful building with lots of glass and plenty of parking. Perfect place for the "lousey" deal don't you think? Take down some eye sores and replace it with something worthwhile! Stop being an "obstructionist" help prepare SB (or should I say repair) for a change to the good...... Bring on County Govt........... Lets get rid of these State Imposed mandates which resrtict Buffalo from doing more.......

[WNYresident]

Someone has to pay for the glass and parking lots.. why do people just love to spend others money

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Someone has to pay for the glass and parking lots.. why do people just love to spend others money

It's my money too.......It's called "NEW" Something new something old.....Now we have "OLD" Time for something "NEW" We have been paying Cnty Tax, now it's time for them to spend some money on those faithful SB residents! It's only fair that we recoup some of the money we have put into the system.....and to do away with some of the money pits that are in their last stages of life..... What kind of suggestions do you have for the Cazanovia building? Just kind of curious as to your thoughts on keeping that building a viable part of the community....

[WNYresident]

Nope not time for something new when there isn't the funds for something new.

Are you one that has high balances on your credit cards?

You don't go buying new just because you feel you need new.

Have you noticed how many families are in debt lately? You know why? They think they have to have new all the time or the biggest and the best.

Some are truely in debt for various reasons but a lot are just in debt from stupidity.

The best are clients which can't pay thier $50 dollar bill on time but they have cable, newer SUV and a new McMansion.


Once the politicians learn to remove the stupid pet projects and BAD purchasing habits then we might have money for public benefit items.

BUT right now there's no money to be spending on items like that until we get a handle on what is being spent state level/county level/city level.

[mynikeballs]

Originally posted by WNYresident
BUT right now there's no money to be spending on items like that until we get a handle on what is being spent state level/county level/city level.

I don't see why someone's spending habits dictate new or old. $50.00 bills, SUVs and cable have nothing to do with budgeted money....That's what they do is budget money for these projects..I think they have enough money...... Take the time to think about what should happen there....gonna need someone to push for it soon.....

[WNYresident]

Th'ats the point.. the budgets are empty.. You mean there's 2.5 million budgeted right now sitting in an account for a new library? Or will they pass bonds to cover the cost...

I run 3 companies and understand budgeting better than most. We even set budgets for equipemnt replacement so when it's time for a new piece of equipment the funds are there.

Good example is items like garbage trucks. Why not budget a small amount each year so when the trucks are ready for replacement you have the funds for new trucks.

As sandy beach states, the goverment officials spend like drunken sailors :)

[Night Owl]

You mean there's 2.5 million budgeted right now sitting in an account for a new library?

definately- No.

Or will they pass bonds to cover the cost...

Bonded funds will be used for construction of the new library.

The same funds that the residents of Erie County (not just in South Buffalo) will be expected to pay back through increased property taxes. Originally tobacco settlement money was planned, but this added surplus is no longer an option now because it is all gone.

[Night Owl]

I saw this in the Buffalo News the other day and forgot to post it here:

Library system chief to get pay raise
3/19/2004

The head of the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library system will be getting a pay raise, library trustees decided Thursday.

Michael C. Mahaney, director of the 52-branch system for 14 months, will receive a pay raise to $102,000 a year, after the Library board of trustees voted approval to the raise at a meeting, after a review of Mahaney's performance in his first year on the job.

The raise will be retroactive to Jan. 1.

Mahaney, an Elma resident, succeeded former Director Diane Chrisman in the library system's top job. Last year, he made $97,500 in the post.

to view the breifly article click here (http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20040319/2000260.asp)

----------------------------------

IMO-
Libraries are being threatened to close due to budget cuts and consolidational efforts but the director takes a $4,500 retroactive pay raise. How sick is that? One city branch lost its entire Saturday hours as a way of saving money but the Erie County Library director can get a bigger pay check that starts immediately.

[buffalofamily]

How can they tell the residents of Lovejoy that money is tight, and give the library director a raise the next week.

YUK

THIS IS A DISPLAY OF SELFISH GREED AND LIES TO THE PUBLIC!

Time for an investigation and a closer look at the county end of this.

BF

[buffalofamily]

Almost 18 months after the vague proposal, we still have NO clear proposal.

How can a community decide without knowing ???:

A Proposed location- none given (STILL)

architect???

blueprints???

budget??? was "$4,000,000 + now $2,500,000 + hidden costs to the city. BROKEN PROMISE

where the money will come from??? (it is now a reality that the money will be borrowed) leaving the taxpayers with a bill and LESS service. BROKEN PROMISE

Who asked for this in South Buffalo??? The community didn't go to the county and ask for two libraries to be closed!

Will it be a Buffalo Library? County officials now say NO. So it's a county takeover of Buffalo's libraries in the form of consolidation. BROKEN PROMISE

Hidden costs?

Staff cuts are now reality according to library officials. South Buffalo would get LESS staff. This goes against the initial promise! BROKEN PROMISE

"No more closed door meetings" - said Legislator Mark J.F. Shroeder Meetings have been held that the public has not been allowed to attend.
BROKEN PROMISE

Various rules and guidelines of the B&ECPL
BROKEN

3,250 petition signatures and growing SAY NO !

BF & TP

[buffalofamily]

A lot of talk in South Buffalo indicates that if the Cazenovia and Dudley libraries are closed, many will move out of these two nice neighborhoods.

When School 70 was slated to close, many families in walking distance vowed to sell thier houses and move out. Guess what? They did indeed sell their homes near PS #70. We lost some great hard working families in South Buffalo.

Talking to homeowners around Dudley and Cazenovia, they wonder why their taxes would go toward closing their neighborhood libraries that they and their children depend on. They are going to join some of their neighbors, and put up their homes for sale.

BF

[buffalofamily]

People are asking:

Q. Who would pay for the consolidated library?

A. The taxpayers of Erie County would.



Q. Who would pay for the upkeep of two empty libraries?

A. The taxpayers of Erie County and Buffalo would.



Q. Who would suffer most if the two libraries are closed?

A. The taxpayers of South Buffalo and their families.



Q. Why build a new library, when we have two successful
locations with "world class" services?

A. Construction and furniture deals for Giambras buddies.

BF

[buffalofamily]

Stay tuned for more awful library closing details.

The South Buffalo library consolidation effort is going from bad to worse.

Stay tuned!

BF

[buffalofamily]

Now they want to put it on park land. A proposal for the library to go behind South Park High School. That would eliminate the access to more than 3/4ths. of the library users in South Buffalo.

Lets see. Close TWO SUCCESSFUL libraries and open only ONE smaller location that is out of the way.

What Brains!

BF

[buffalofamily]

Talking to folks all around SB, it seems like nobody wants a consolidated location. They prefer the existing libraries that they walk to.

Some liked the idea when it was proposed in their area. Politicians told the folks on McKinley that it would be built by them. People in the Valley were promised a location closer to them (Hecock Park). Seneca residents were drooling at the promise of a library on Seneca Street.

Well, that's the way to get support. Promise the entire population the same thing. Yuk to the politics that should be left out of library policies.

Stay tuned!

BF

[buffalofamily]

South Buffalo residents are wondering why the politicians running for higher office are tight lipped now about their wanting and pushing the closing of OUR libraries. Leg. Schroeder and Assemb. Higgins support CLOSING libraries. They have fought to CLOSE them!

Don't vote for them again...EVER

BF

[Curmudgeon]

Leg. Schroeder and Assemb. Higgins support CLOSING libraries.

So do I.

That's why I will vote for them every time.

I'll vote for any politician who shows the sightest inclination of fiscal responsibility.

[WNYresident]

Curm,

Do you really know how many kids in the inner city don't have computers. More than you think, and the ones which do are usually way out of date.

Keeping two libraries open is peanuts tax payer wise if ran properly. I'd prefer to lose a few patronage people and CUT (YOU HEARD ME, CUT as in PAY DECREASE) some administration salaries throughout government before closeing two libraries. It's time the politicians and croonie take one for the team.

[buffalofamily]

CRUMZ SEZ:
I'll vote for any politician who shows the sightest inclination of fiscal responsibility.

You should know better. This plan to close two libraries will cost upwards of 6 million dollars. The savings only equate to only $100,000 a year. HMMM 60 years before a break even point. The library they are replacing is only 40 years old (DUDLEY), and CAZENOVIA has held up strong for almost 80 years.

CRUMZ - Get it through your head.

THE PLAN WASTES MONEY

BF

[WNYresident]

It's not a waste of money if you are the elected builder of the new library and if your the politician/connected family that might own the property where the new library will be built.

Now i see why the developers try to control the politicians.

[buffalofamily]

Now i see why the developers try to control the politicians.

Yep! With this plan, the politicians have provided NO plans to the community, NO blueprints to the community, NO location to the community, NO architect to the community...

I bet the plan is all a "DONE DEAL" somewhere in a NEW desk drawer in Giambra's office.

BF

[WNYresident]

They don't have time to acutally write the plans seeing they have all day meetings about what they could do for 4 years. Plus i'm assuming 25% of that time we pay them for is spent figuring out how they get re-elected for thier next term of all day meetings.

[buffalofamily]

Plus i'm assuming 25% of that time we pay them for is spent figuring out how they get re-elected for thier next term of all day meetings.

You would be surprised how little time they spend on real work.

bf