something to think about along with my fellow veterans

[buffalojoe]

Some things that should make you think a little a little bit . . .

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during January . . . 1+ per day.

In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.
That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.

Some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, but probably
did not stop to consider:

FDR - led us into World War II. Germany had never attacked us; Japan had.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
an average of 308 PER DAY!

Truman - finished that war and started one in Korea though North Korea never
attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per
year - or an average of 50 PER DAY!

John F. Kennedy - started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked
us. Then Lyndon Johnson - turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year. Or an
average of 16 PER DAY!

Clinton - went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, yet Bosnia
never attacked us.

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and
did nothing. Osama attacked us on multiple occasions.

In the years since terrorists attacked us President Bush liberated
two countries, crushed the Taliban, and crippled al-Qaida. He
put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing
a shot. The terrorist, Sadam, who had slaughtered 300,000 fellow
countrymen, was captured and is being held for trial by his own
people.

Democrats complain about how long the war is taking . . . but, it
took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch
Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy
the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police
after his Oldsmobile sank at Chapaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!

Our Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.

. . . but, wait, there's more:

JOHN GLENN ON THE SENATE FLOOR

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do
for a living. The following exchange between Senators John Glenn and
Howard Metzenbaum is worth reviewing. Not only is it a pretty impressive
impromptu speech; but, it's also a good example of one man's explanation
of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.

Senator Metzenbaum to Senator Glenn: "How can you run for Senate when
you've never held a real job?"

Senator Glenn: "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps. I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. And, I was in the space program.

It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a
nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank.
I ask you to go with me . . . as I went the other day . . . to a veteran's hospital
and look those men, with their mangled bodies, in the eye--and tell THEM they
didn't hold a job! You go with me to the Space Program at NASA. Go, as I have gone, to the widows and orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee--
and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn't hold a job.

You go with me on Memorial Day and stand in Arlington National Cemetery,
where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch
those waving flags.

You stand there, and think about this nation, and you tell ME that those
people didn't have a job? I'll tell you, Howard Metzenbaum: you should be on
your knees every day of your life thanking God that there were some men--
SOME MEN--who held REAL jobs. And they required a dedication to a purpose,
and a love of country and a dedication to duty, that was more important
than life itself. And their self-sacrifice is what made this country
possible. I HAVE held a job, Howard! What about you?"

For those who don't remember: During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an
attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA. Now he's a Senator!
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English thank
a Veteran.subject

[Chancellor Qu'noH]

BRAVO!!!! I retired from that "real job" missing a few things but I do believe in my heart that I was doing the right thing!

Thanks Buffalojoe! :D

[jbinbny]

What a terrific post! Excellent job!!!

Metezenbaum showed just what an ignorant jerk he really was!

Glenn cut him to the quick and it only took the TRUTH!

The Metzenbaum attitude is alive and well in Senators like Hillary, Barbara Boxer and congressmen like Kucinich, Pilosi and others!

THEY HAVEN'T A CLUE AS TO WHAT THEIR TALKING ABOUT!

Bravo again on a great thread!

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by buffalojoe
Some things that should make you think a little a little bit . . .

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during January . . . 1+ per day.
Combat-related American deaths in Iraq:

Since war began (3/19/03): 1360
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 1252
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 1056
Since Handover (6/29/04): 727
Since Election (1/31/05): 255

Approximately 13,000 US servicemen & women wounded since war began.

There were 40 US combat-related deaths (http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/7844869.htm) in January 2004.

Every website I've found lists 107 american deaths during the month of January 2005. That's 3.5 per day.


In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.

That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.

Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings. But as we can see, January 2005 (long after the cessation of major combat operations) was three times deadlier than January 2004, or Detroit.


Some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, but probably did not stop to consider:

FDR - led us into World War II. Germany had never attacked us; Japan had.

And a few days after we declared war on Japan (http://www.worldwar2database.com/cgi-bin/slideviewer.cgi?list=us_war.slides), Germany & Italy declared war on the US (http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/germwar.html), since they had an alliance known as the "Axis". (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/11/newsid_3532000/3532401.stm)


From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year. an average of 308 PER DAY!

What's your point? That WWII wasn't worth fighting? Or the fact that the Iraq war, which is over 2 years old, hasn't yet produced so many US dead. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that WWII was a world war and not played out on the territory of one country.


Truman - finished that war and started one in Korea though North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year - or an average of 50 PER DAY!

North Korea invaded South Korea. North Korea started that war. The United Nations Security Council voted to send a coalition of troops to Korea to turn the communists back. You see, back then there was a global cold war between communists & non-communists that occasionally turned "hot". Korea was one of those conflicts. If the UN hadn't come in to turn back the North Koreans (a brutal Stalinist regime), the entire Korean peninsula would now be run by Kim Jong Il. We turned them back almost to the Chinese border, but the Chinese got involved & pushed us halfway back. Truman wouldn't nuke China, so a cease fire was reached which is still in force today. The Korean war is technically still going on today.


John F. Kennedy - started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. Then Lyndon Johnson - turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year. Or an average of 16 PER DAY!

And there was a very, very strong anti-war movement that developed and totally changed the direction of American political discourse.


Clinton - went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, yet Bosnia never attacked us.

Clinton went to war in Bosnia with NATO and UN consent. Bosnia never attacked us. The Bosnian Serbs were attacking Bosnian Croat & Muslim civilians, and the UN decided that was not a nice thing to do, and NATO decided that genocide on the European continent in the 1990s probably wasn't a positive development.


He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama attacked us on multiple occasions.


In the years since terrorists attacked us President Bush liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, and crippled al-Qaida. He put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot. The terrorist, Sadam, who had slaughtered 300,000 fellow countrymen, was captured and is being held for trial by his own people.


Clinton put nuclear inspectors in North Korea, which were promptly expelled when Bush stuck them in the axis of evil. That freed up the N Koreans to complete their nuclear bombs.

The US doesn't have nuke inspectors in Iran, the IAEA does. And the Iranians aren't cooperating. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1428148,00.html)

Libya is cooperating with its nuclear inspectors. Again - not the US, but the IAEA. (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-12/29/content_294140.htm)

It is true that Saddam was captured and is being held for trial. And that is a good thing. But the war in Iraq seems to have no end as long as the Sunni-Qaeda insurgency continues to explode Americans and innocent Iraqis.


Democrats complain about how long the war is taking . . . but, it took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.

We have taken Iraq, but the security situation is anything but stable. And I am sickened when people defend the Branch Davidians. All they had to do was comply with a warrant. Instead, they waged war on the government. And the government defended itself. If you're served with a warrant or subpoena, are you going to shoot the marshal? Anyone who does that deserves whatever they get.


It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chapaquiddick.

What on Earth does Ted Kennedy have to do with anything? Must be fun for you to make sick jokes over the body of dead girls.


For those who don't remember: During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA. Now he's a Senator! If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.

The John Glenn quote you cite didn't take place in 2004. It took place in 1974. (http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_glenn_metzenbaum.htm)

Metzenbaum left the Senate in 1995. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Metzenbaum)

John Glenn left the Senate in 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Glenn)

And John Glenn never said those words on the Senate floor, but during a primary race in Ohio when the two DEMOCRATS were battling for the nomination to become Senators.

Finally, the 9/11 commission had this to say: "former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States....Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim."

You, therefore, endorse the claims of former officials of Sudan -- a country that the U.S. Department of State has designated as a state sponsor of terrorism every year since 1993 -- rather than the testimony of Clinton administration officials and the findings of the 9-11 Commission.

When I google "Metzenbaum defend communists", (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-31,GGLD:en&q=metzenbaum+defend+communists) the first sites that pop up are predominantly neo-nazi, anti-semitic sites. Is that where you get your information from?

[NCnewbie]

Rock on buffalopundit!!!!!!!!

[speaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by buffalopundit
[B]

I won't bother to wate any time refuting those claims from pundit who twists the facts and plays with words. If these statements were true, as YOU say, then you are saying two wrongs make a right? Or in this case, a lot of wrongs added to a lot of wrongs, make it all right?
There's no question that 17000 humans died, and we are living history and witnessing it up close and personal. There is no question that the Iraqui war was a total mistake and based on inaccurate and never researched information. Several other things you mention, pundit, were not wars and were not called that or even represented as such at the time.

quote:"In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.

That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings. But as we can see, January 2005 (long after the cessation of major combat operations) was three times deadlier than January 2004, or Detroit.

Maybe we should stop putting human lives in harm's way in Iraq.

quote; "Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings."

Maybe we should do both. And maybe we should have the money to do both.

There is no question that those are poor values and poor judgment displayed by the president, his lack of forethought about the aftermath of undertaking this war, and lack of concern, along with all of those other issues Bush is trying to force feed down the American gullet. This war will negatively effect every living being on this earth.

Nice thing, the saving thing, is people are catching on to the creeping brutality which this war and Pres Bush have brought on this earth. The earth doesn't need it.

Thanks for bringing your views to this American public where I can speakup against them.




]

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by speaker
[QUOTE]Originally posted by buffalopundit
[B]

I won't bother to wate any time refuting those claims from pundit who twists the facts and plays with words. If these statements were true, as YOU say, then you are saying two wrongs make a right? Or in this case, a lot of wrongs added to a lot of wrongs, make it all right?
There's no question that 17000 humans died, and we are living history and witnessing it up close and personal. There is no question that the Iraqui war was a total mistake and based on inaccurate and never researched information. Several other things you mention, pundit, were not wars and were not called that or even represented as such at the time.

quote:"In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.

That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings. But as we can see, January 2005 (long after the cessation of major combat operations) was three times deadlier than January 2004, or Detroit.

Maybe we should stop putting human lives in harm's way in Iraq.

quote; "Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings."

Maybe we should do both. And maybe we should have the money to do both.

There is no question that those are poor values and poor judgment displayed by the president, his lack of forethought about the aftermath of undertaking this war, and lack of concern, along with all of those other issues Bush is trying to force feed down the American gullet. This war will negatively effect every living being on this earth.

Nice thing, the saving thing, is people are catching on to the creeping brutality which this war and Pres Bush have brought on this earth. The earth doesn't need it.

Thanks for bringing your views to this American public where I can speakup against them.]

If you're against the Iraq war, why are you calling me out?

[jbinbny]

To buffalopundit, speaker and NCnewbie:

Have any of you ever served in the military and if so what branch, and what was your MOS?

No hostility intended, just a question I have.

[NCnewbie]

No, I've never served in the military. My mother said I was never very good at following orders. :o

What I can say though, is that, I truly appreciate the sacrifice of all veterans. That is not conditional of their views on a particular subject. It is because of them, I have my freedom of speech. Thank you.

Using that freedom of speech, I will say that, I do not agree with this Iraq war. 1700+ US soldiers have died to fight a war that has made our country less safe. Our presence in Iraq has fueled an insurgency that is providing terrorists with deadly experience, and increased the hatred against the US that terrorist recruitment thrives on.

Now that we are in Iraq however, we need a plan to get out. This may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, and I actually think it is unrealistic to set a date, but I believe we need goals. Such as when electricity is restored 100%, we reduce troops. Or, when the govt has written their constitution, we reduce troops. Or when we train 100,000 Iraqi soldiers, we get out.

Just my opinion. Once again, thank you to our veterans who have allowed me the freedom to spout it.

[Nicolas II]

Think that there might be some rumblings from the base of the Vietnam Memorial as President Bush sat down with the leader of Vietnam yesterday to further trade negotiations? Mother Macree! :rolleyes:

[jbinbny]

Originally posted by NCnewbie
No, I've never served in the military. My mother said I was never very good at following orders. :o

What I can say though, is that, I truly appreciate the sacrifice of all veterans. That is not conditional of their views on a particular subject. It is because of them, I have my freedom of speech. Thank you.

Using that freedom of speech, I will say that, I do not agree with this Iraq war. 1700+ US soldiers have died to fight a war that has made our country less safe. Our presence in Iraq has fueled an insurgency that is providing terrorists with deadly experience, and increased the hatred against the US that terrorist recruitment thrives on.

Now that we are in Iraq however, we need a plan to get out. This may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, and I actually think it is unrealistic to set a date, but I believe we need goals. Such as when electricity is restored 100%, we reduce troops. Or, when the govt has written their constitution, we reduce troops. Or when we train 100,000 Iraqi soldiers, we get out.

Just my opinion. Once again, thank you to our veterans who have allowed me the freedom to spout it.


I agree when it's said that American troops should not remain in Iraq indefinetly.

But I do not want the troops to leave before the job is finished. That would be a huge mistake. Another would be to advertise a timetable for their removal. It will not help the fledgling democratic govt taking shape in Iraq one bit.

Indeed, it would have the direct opposite effect.

As a former soldier myself, (and I am damned proud of it), I would say that no President should ever commit the US Army, Marines, Navy or Air Force to combat actions without careful consideration of the risks involved and the objective to be achieved.


That being said, once the US Military is deployed, they do NOT stop until they complete the mission...........NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES!

The worst thing you can do is commit the armed forces of the US to a mission and not allow them to complete it. THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE!

[NCnewbie]

Originally posted by jbinbny
I agree when it's said that American troops should not remain in Iraq indefinetly.

But I do not want the troops to leave before the job is finished. That would be a huge mistake. Another would be to advertise a timetable for their removal. It will not help the fledgling democratic govt taking shape in Iraq one bit.

Indeed, it would have the direct opposite effect.

As a former soldier myself, (and I am damned proud of it), I would say that no President should ever commit the US Army, Marines, Navy or Air Force to combat actions without careful consideration of the risks involved and the objective to be achieved.


That being said, once the US Military is deployed, they do NOT stop until they complete the mission...........NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES!

The worst thing you can do is commit the armed forces of the US to a mission and not allow them to complete it. THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE!

Actually I agree with the sentiment that we should "finish the job". My question is What is the job? If we do not know what the job is, how do know when it is completed?

I also agree that a timetable IS unrealistic. But I do believe guidelines/goals should exist so we know when the mission is completed.

BTW, thank you for your service!

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by jbinbny
To buffalopundit, speaker and NCnewbie:

Have any of you ever served in the military and if so what branch, and what was your MOS?

No hostility intended, just a question I have.

Nope. My father was drafted into two armies. The first one in his home country, and then in the US in 1969. I figure he took my slot. I was born in 1968, so when I turned 18 I registered for Selective Service. That was my duty.

I honor the men and women who fought for this country very, very much. That's why I don't like to see them go off and die in a war that wasn't very well planned, wasn't particularly necessary to the war on terror, and isn't being very well executed.

But you do realize that whether or not I served is completely irrelevant to my ability to hold my opinion, right?

[steven]

Originally posted by jbinbny

To buffalopundit, speaker and NCnewbie:

Have any of you ever served in the military and if so what branch, and what was your MOS?


I cant speak for them but I can speak for me. I did my 20 and retireed in 2001 I was 11b, 11c, and 11m when I got out. Just because I was in the military does not mean I support the current president or his nation building dreams.


Originally posted by jbinbny
That being said, once the US Military is deployed, they do NOT stop until they complete the mission...........NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES!

The worst thing you can do is commit the armed forces of the US to a mission and not allow them to complete it. THAT IS A BIG MISTAKE!

The mistake is thinking that US soldiers are policeman. They Are not. A US soldier is trained to fight in times of war. The war is over, nation building should be conducted by someone else.
If you have been in the military you should no that what we have been seeing in the news is wrong. Very wrong.

Take the prison scandal for instance. An SSG should not be running a prison camp especially a reserve SSG. He has niether the training nor the rank to have all the authority he had. This tells me the military is way overextended when they have a E-6 reservist doing something normaly an E-9 lifer would be doing.

History will not look back upon this time kindly.

[speaker]

Originally posted by buffalopundit
If you're against the Iraq war, why are you calling me out?

Sorry, pundit--that was my bad....as night owl sez

No, I was never in the military. All surrounding me in my life were. I only know the the ripple effect misery when a soldier dies, and the suffering the soldiers, who did come back, went through in various degrees after they found themselves safe at home.

[therising]

a big "we're not worthy" goes out to pundit.

Nice rebuttal!

[Chancellor Qu'noH]

The problem with IraQ is the same problem that was Nam. Not trying to win a war now but win hearts and minds.

Hell with that. we went in to remove saddam and let them set up "They're" own government. It done. Now give them 3 months to get they're army ready and out.

When I was over there you would see people coming out of houses carring aks or old bolt actions and be ready for a fight. You couldn't tell if they were the enemy or not. That is one of the biggest problems....They all have guns everywhere I was an adviser over in the gulf last year and was sent home because I said I was going to shoot first and ask questions later. I see a man or a couple of men running from a house with guns in an area that I was just shot at from ..... Guess what BANG! YOUR DEAD so I was sent home.

[Riven37]

John F. Kennedy - started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked
us. Then Lyndon Johnson - turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year. Or an
average of 16 PER DAY!



This is wrong info !!! Congress had sent advisors into Vietnam in 1959 to protect our oil interest on off shore accounts. It was the only war that private business had lost cilivian workers to combat fighting to protect their interest.

On the Wall the dates read 1959-1975 the longest War US ever fought. In 1962 Kennedy sent our Green Bert into Vietnam as advisors to beef up our CIA advisors we already had there.

LBJ beef up our troops in 1963 and by 1965 we had reached over tow hundred and fifty thousand troops. It was 59, 859 + lives lost however, this doesn not count the 250,000 who died do to their wounds following their extraction from the war or years later do to those wounds. It does not cover the 120,000 who had taken their own lives from 1975 - 1885 do to Gov't failure to teart our troops properly once they returned home.

It was the only US War where we vets were wanked out of combat and placed on the US streets within hours later we were in a fire fight.

Vietnam was the last war to use chemical warfare since WWI and in doing so, cost the lives of at least 20,000 veterans do to that chemical warfare.

It was the only War that the VFW refused to accept Nam vets in stattered cities throughout the country and throughout its posts during the 1970's until about 1980's...It had forced Vets of Vietnam War to form their own orgainization called the VVA. Congressed approved there Charter in 1985 and well as congress offically declaring the Vietnam Conflict to a Vietnam War and allowed us veterans to file our service connected claims.

If, If Turman had step in when he should had we may not have ever went into Vietnam however, because Turman refused to help and carried over to Ike's refusal its a price we paid, my firends paid and I paid....

Today, Vietnam wants our business and wants trade normalization to help close this book of theres and our past. for many many years I hated Vietnam but as time goes by and I become older my hate is lessen a little more. If we the US do not begin trade normalization with Vietnam the US will never be able to put Vietanm to sleep. I hate yes, I hate when the news compair vietnam to other problems in the world and the US and Congress hasn't even fixed our past first. No wonder the media compairs everything to Vietnam. Its time to stop...all I want is to rest and I can't rest when the media refuses to let me rest...stop using my war to compair other fighting in this world...Nothing will ever compair Vietnam to any other fighting in the world...let me rest.


I hate it when the wrong info or hafe info is used...tell it like it is and don't believe everything you read...ask a vet who was there !!

[speaker]

Yeah, riv, the French occupied Vietnam for 37+ yrs and wanted out. The south Vietnamese were terrified of the north because they knew there would be a civil war and they'd be annihlated ands they begged USA to send over troops to help them with terrible stories of genocide. We did and look what happened. the same for Iraq. The vets were really not treated well but we, the people knew it was a horrible thing and often soldiers dying from "friendly" fire. Disease and brutality damaged many guys.
In Afghanistan several of our troops died of cancer from the gas used by the Americans. Imagine how many Afghans died of the same thing? Children, women, our men, their men. Not shot down--a long and terrible death.
Value of human life. Pshaw.
Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan and now Iraq are not and were not WW1 or 2. Just bloody suffering for all.:mad:

[buffknut]

Nice post buffalojoe. Too bad this forum is overwhelmingly anti-Bush, and pro-liberal Democrat. The members hate anything Bush does, have no viable alternate plans to do anything, and believe everything they have been fed for decades from an obviously biased left-wing media. They wonder why Erie County & NY State are wallowing and can't seem to understand that they are part of the problem because they have voted in the liberal Democrats for decades.

They need to revise history because after all, thousands died on fwench beaches in 1944 attacking germany even though it was Japan that attacked us.

They want to go back to the ladeedah pre-9/11 world of Clinton where we ignored the growing threat and didn't do a damn thing about it. They want the UN to tell us what to do despite the obvious fact they would never pass a UN resolution due to the corruption and bribery. They believe everyone except their own President who they just can't get over, actually defeated their heroes Gore and Kerry. They believe Dan Rather, Michael Moore, CNN, and the elites in Hollywood and mainstream media instead of their own President. They don't see how they play right into the hands of al-jezeera. They don't because they don't want to. They want the US to fail. They won't say it, but they act it. They don't get it.

As I said in other posts, they might as well put an obligatory "I hate George Bush" reply into every thread so they can save themselves from repeating their rhetoric against Bush in every thread. I feel like a lone wolf here although it looks like there are a very few others who agree with some of what I've repeatedly said.

This area acts and votes in lock-step with the Dem party locally and nationally. Oh they may say they support a 2-party system and look for the "best" candidate, but they don't show it here.

They are not part of any solution to anything. With these guys leading the way, tell your wives to start wearing burkas because the path Europe is rapidly going down (soon to be Eurabia), we will be next. Thankfully GWB gets this & is doing something about it.

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by buffknut
Nice post buffalojoe. Too bad this forum is overwhelmingly anti-Bush, and pro-liberal Democrat. The members hate anything Bush does, have no viable alternate plans to do anything, and believe everything they have been fed for decades from an obviously biased left-wing media. They wonder why Erie County & NY State are wallowing and can't seem to understand that they are part of the problem because they have voted in the liberal Democrats for decades.

We know precisely what's wrong with NYS and Erie County. And we're smart enough to realize that things have to change. And we're open-minded enough to realize that fundamental change in NYS is a non-partisan issue.


They need to revise history because after all, thousands died on fwench beaches in 1944 attacking germany even though it was Japan that attacked us.

God, that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen, and now I've seen it twice in one thread.

You're the one revising history. During the second week of December 1941:

1. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor
2. We declared war on Japan
3. Japan declared war on the US
4. Germany & Italy declared war on the US in retailiation for declaring war on their ally, Japan.
5. The US declared war on Germany & Italy.

If you don't realize that the sequence of events took place like that, and you continue to spout off that FDR attacked the Germans for no good reason (concentration camps apparently not being reason enough, in retrospect), then I truly feel sorry for you.


They want to go back to the ladeedah pre-9/11 world of Clinton where we ignored the growing threat and didn't do a damn thing about it. They want the UN to tell us what to do despite the obvious fact they would never pass a UN resolution due to the corruption and bribery. They believe everyone except their own President who they just can't get over, actually defeated their heroes Gore and Kerry. They believe Dan Rather, Michael Moore, CNN, and the elites in Hollywood and mainstream media instead of their own President. They don't see how they play right into the hands of al-jezeera. They don't because they don't want to. They want the US to fail. They won't say it, but they act it. They don't get it.

Nobody wants the US to fail. The republicans and the administration have set the US for failure, and shout "treason" when that fact is criticized. Only a traitor would send troops to fight a war without adequate armor. Only a traitor would send American men & women to a desert to fight a war without enough water to go around. Only a traitor would ignore the Pentagon and send far fewer troops to fight a battle and win a peace, despite the generals' pleas. Only a traitor would call someone who criticizes torture a traitor, rather than the torturer himself.

It's not Dick Durbin who's playing into the hands of America's enemies. It's the cretins and morons who are torturing and humiliating prisoners at Abu Ghraib (which is subject to Geneva Convention), and holding prisoners on American soil at Gitmo indefinitely without charge or trial - who are playing into the hands of our enemies.


As I said in other posts, they might as well put an obligatory "I hate George Bush" reply into every thread so they can save themselves from repeating their rhetoric against Bush in every thread. I feel like a lone wolf here although it looks like there are a very few others who agree with some of what I've repeatedly said.

I don't hate George Bush necessarily. I hate his patent incompetence and his contempt for the truth and our troops.


This area acts and votes in lock-step with the Dem party locally and nationally. Oh they may say they support a 2-party system and look for the "best" candidate, but they don't show it here.

I'm sorry - to which party do Gov. Pataki and CE Giambra belong again?


They are not part of any solution to anything. With these guys leading the way, tell your wives to start wearing burkas because the path Europe is rapidly going down (soon to be Eurabia), we will be next. Thankfully GWB gets this & is doing something about it.

On top of being ignorant, you're a bigot, too. Or maybe that's redundant.

[buffknut]

pundit. you have zero credibility with me. So your comments matter not to me. Go ahead, believe the BS you've been fed all you want. Enjoy your own blog all you want. Call me ignorant, bigoted and any other name you want.

You forget about concentration camps in Iraq but then the treatment people get in that part of the world matters not to you, Amnesty Intl, Durbin, and the like. It's easy to criticise the US because you can get away with it without getting killed or imprisoned. Try that in the rest of the world.

You care more about gitmo terrorists who would kill Americans if they could, than our military. You like it when lies are spread that can be used against America. You agree with Durbin & his ilk. Well I don't and I do think they are the traitors.

Don't lecture me on concentration camps. My Dad was there for the liberation of two so I've heard the stories.

You are just another "I hate Bush" guy so you fit right in with the liberal Dem obstructionists who have no interest in fixing anything.

You are a lost cause in my book. You don't get it.

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by buffknut
pundit. you have zero credibility with me. So your comments matter not to me. Go ahead, believe the BS you've been fed all you want. Enjoy your own blog all you want. Call me ignorant, bigoted and any other name you want.

The history of WWII is BS?

And what makes you think I give a crap whether I have "credibility with" you?


You forget about concentration camps in Iraq but then the treatment people get in that part of the world matters not to you, Amnesty Intl, Durbin, and the like. It's easy to criticise the US because you can get away with it without getting killed or imprisoned. Try that in the rest of the world.

I didn't forget about concentration camps in Iraq. If that was going to be the rationale to take Iraq to war, then that should have been stated. But the rationale was WMDs. Which aren't there. Which weren't there in 2003, either. Or 2002, for that matter. But don't let facts get in the way of your opinions.

Also: If you click this underlined text, you will be taken to the Amnesty International report on human rights in Iraq for the year 2001. (http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/IRAQ) Read it, and then tell me that Amnesty doesn't care about what happened there under Hussein. Why don't you at least take a smidgen of time to look things up before you spout off about them?


You care more about gitmo terrorists who would kill Americans if they could, than our military. You like it when lies are spread that can be used against America. You agree with Durbin & his ilk. Well I don't and I do think they are the traitors.

No. I care more about traditional American values than I do about torturers or gitmo-held terrorists. I care more about the America that never would have dreamed of torturing or humiliating prisoners. I care more about the America that never would have imagined holding people in detention without trial, charge, or right of habeas corpus. That America is dying, and the pro-torture radical right are the ones killing it.


Don't lecture me on concentration camps. My Dad was there for the liberation of two so I've heard the stories.

My dad was there? When did I "lecture" you about concentration camps? You're the one who inferred that invading Normandy to push back the Germans wasn't worth it. You're the one who needs to explain himself, not me.

Using your own logic, I could easily state that you care more about Nazi German scum than the people whom they oppressed.


You are just another "I hate Bush" guy so you fit right in with the liberal Dem obstructionists who have no interest in fixing anything.

You are a lost cause in my book. You don't get it.

Ditto.

[speaker]

Originally posted by buffknut
.............. Thankfully GWB gets this & is doing something about it.

No, I would be very happy if "gwb" did something about anything, besides driving the world down to the lowest common denominator. He's a little kid playing with tin soldiers.
Buffknut--You are the emptiest poster in a long time . You know no facts and get to be a bore with your repeats. You are a true ditto head.

[Linda_D]

8 Dec With only 1 dissenting vote, the U.S. Congress declared war on Japan.
11 Dec Germany and Italy declared war on the U.S., which then recognized a state of war with these nations. --Encyclopedia of American History, edited by Richard B. Morris, Professor of History, Columbia University, copyright 1953, 1961, 1965.

It seems that it's buffknut and the other Bush supporters are the ones revising history to suit their interests.

BTW, nice rebuttals, Speaker and Pundit.

[buffalojoe]

If I'm correct congress declared war on Iraq ............

pundit you couldn't handle traditional american heritage...first of all 60 years ago you may have been arrested for the way you talk about the president..

you liberals don't realise how you effect the war...how you indirectlky get our kids killed..The enemy feeds off you emotions and anti goverment....we can't torture the enemy we have to fight by the rules of war.we shouldn't be there ...we shouldn't do this and we shouldn't do that..well guess what, the press is right with you. They put allot of pressure on our commanders to change the strategy on how we fight a war. In doing this we fight conventional and that puts are trrops in a bad situation because our commanders are trying to be politically correct,,,,,
I left the democratic party 3 years ago because the democrates listen to the likes of all those knot heads in massachuetts... and the flamming liberals of California..Honestly I wish we can have half the country and you take the other half. You would be bankrupt in 6 months.
Other then that I love you all. my door is always open, i will feed or help anybody I can....
As I'm getting older and I'm losing more and more friends to death. I'm at the point that I'm madder at the politicians that these kids are dying and most of them couldn't leagally have a drink yet. Then I am at the war itself.

[WestSideJohn]

you liberals don't realise how you effect the war...how you indirectly get our kids killed...No, sending our kids off to war based on bad information is what gets them killed. I'm really tired of people blaming war protesters or Newsweek or whoever for our soldiers dying in Iraq and excusing the man who sent them there in the first place.

[granpabob]

we lock up terrorist with out trail just like japanese and germans were locked up without trail during WWII. except that many of the japanese and germans were US citizens back then not foreign terrorist.
my war was handcuffed with so many regulations on our side that we could never win now we have forgotten that and are handcuffing our men again
the middle east has the idea that they should not trust america because they every time we back some one against terroist leaders we get cold feet and leave. if we leave irag now and let our backers stand alone and die no one in that part of the world will ever trust us again.
whether we were right or wrong in going there is old news, look what happened to our freinds in Vietnam when we left. if we leave without a very strough govenment in place thousand will be left defenseless .face it we have to make sure that when we go they will be ready to stand up.
women are in school now. all the villages have utilies and schools if we leave befor they can defend themselves they will be punished for over stepping the old bounderies.
the world is watching to see if we run home with a job half finished once again. this time we cant blaim it on the UN. this time its just us. we leave irag befor they are ready and no one will ever trust us to back them again.

[buffknut]

Speaker & others, it makes me happy to know I am "empty" to you liberal Democrats. You can be happy with Kennedy, Kerry, & the rest who truly do not take the war on terror seriously.

As I've said, this forum is hopelessly overwhelmingly liberal Democrats. I've resigned myself to that fact. Thankfully the country continues the long-term trend of moving away from your positions, as I have.

So I'll still contribute every so often because that is my right (priviledge actually), even though I am not as smart as you. I'm comfortable with my beliefs. You can choose to ignore me and insult me if you wish, that is your right also.

I thought this forum would discuss solutions to problems facing Buffalo & EC. But it can't because of your misguided hatred of yours and my President. It continues to blind you & infect too many threads.

You are all probably honorable people. Get some therapy and maybe you'll see the light.

A couple brews will do it for me!

Enjoy your weekend.

[speaker]

I don't think this board is overwelmingly liberal--or democrat. Congress said yes to war based on the irrefutable evidence gwb and cheney etc, presented that there were WMD.
Bush's "bring em on" , totally ignoring wisdom and experience. After Nam the American people proclaimed, as a cohesive whole, "we'll never do that again."
I said it before, and I reiterate--I was an unaffiliated republican most of my life, but when I witnessed what the republican/conservative party did to Clinton during his presidential years, I affiliated democrat, and I'm proud of it. I still vote as if there were no labels, but at least I've made my stand.
I long for the peace and contentment (that is, except the the R/C 's constant nagging, pouting and sniping) that the Clinton years brought to the USA.

[therising]

To the posters who are complaining that this MB is full of liberals/democrats:

Please explain this:

http://www.speakupwny.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1955

As of today, there are an even 100 replys. 65 voted that they are on the right side of the spectrum.

Please stop crying about how you're in the minority, it's not very becoming.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by buffknut
Speaker & others, it makes me happy to know I am "empty" to you liberal Democrats. You can be happy with Kennedy, Kerry, & the rest who truly do not take the war on terror seriously.

As I've said, this forum is hopelessly overwhelmingly liberal Democrats. I've resigned myself to that fact. Thankfully the country continues the long-term trend of moving away from your positions, as I have.

So I'll still contribute every so often because that is my right (priviledge actually), even though I am not as smart as you. I'm comfortable with my beliefs. You can choose to ignore me and insult me if you wish, that is your right also.

I thought this forum would discuss solutions to problems facing Buffalo & EC. But it can't because of your misguided hatred of yours and my President. It continues to blind you & infect too many threads.

You are all probably honorable people. Get some therapy and maybe you'll see the light.

A couple brews will do it for me!

Enjoy your weekend.

Slinking away because you stuck your foot in your mouth, buffknut?

You claimed that the posters opposed to the Iraq war were revising history, but the fact is, it was your buddy buffalojoe who started this thread with the right-wing revised history of the US in the last 60 years.

BTW, you -- and several others -- are the ones who insert the partisanship on this board. You and your cohorts are the ones who blindly frame issues and solutions to conform to your narrow "RW conservative is always good, and anything else is bad" point-of-view.

Most posters on this board are very much like most Americans; they aren't doctrinaire "liberals" or "conservatives". On some issues we're left of center and on others we're right of center, and sometimes we're smack in the center. It all depends on the issue. Basically, most of us don't let a bunch of political hacks in Washington do our thinking for us. Deal with it.

[crusader_chris]

Linda_D,

I don't know why you can take the in-your-face slinging you like to dish out, seems like you are sort of a cry baby.

And you use the typical DNC words, like YOU, YOUR...

I am sick of this State and the Pathetic Liberal Attitude and Policies which has screwed the people over, by YOUR people, like Cuomo and all the dingbats in Albany. And Hillary - Your Emperoress hasn't done a G-Damn thing for us!

While I am trying offer something WE can use, and DO ... you always retract the the condescending Democrat Mantra and blame everyone else.

Carl Rove, made is great statement recently about the comments that came out of the DNC and GOP regarding 9-11 ... and it clearly makes the point about the cowardice of the Democrats and how what the Democrats have said, are being used to fuel the hate against America!

Again, the Democrats demanded an apology ... NOT happening and it SHOULD NOT! This is politics, you play tougher than the toughest.

"For those who fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know"

Thanks Buffalojoe for this thread!

[citymouse]

I think it is ironic we have vets living in card board boxes and a draft dodger in the white house.

[crlachepinochet]

Originally posted by crusader_chris
And you use the typical DNC words, like YOU, YOUR...


Is that why Southerners have to use "y'all"? I always thought it was just a cultural thing.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by crusader_chris
Linda_D,

I don't know why you can take the in-your-face slinging you like to dish out, seems like you are sort of a cry baby.

And you use the typical DNC words, like YOU, YOUR...

I am sick of this State and the Pathetic Liberal Attitude and Policies which has screwed the people over, by YOUR people, like Cuomo and all the dingbats in Albany. And Hillary - Your Emperoress hasn't done a G-Damn thing for us!

While I am trying offer something WE can use, and DO ... you always retract the the condescending Democrat Mantra and blame everyone else.

Carl Rove, made is great statement recently about the comments that came out of the DNC and GOP regarding 9-11 ... and it clearly makes the point about the cowardice of the Democrats and how what the Democrats have said, are being used to fuel the hate against America!

Again, the Democrats demanded an apology ... NOT happening and it SHOULD NOT! This is politics, you play tougher than the toughest.

"For those who fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know"

Thanks Buffalojoe for this thread!

ROFLMAO!!!

Another RW sheeple heard from. There must be a school that all RW ideologues attend so that they learn when they can't argue facts, they attack a person as a "liberal" and bring up the Clintons -- Oh, wait, isn't that the Rush Limbaugh University of the Air?

A few points, Chrissy m'boy ...

1. Mario Cuomo, Democrat, hasn't been governor since 1995. George Pataki, Republican, has been in the Gov's mansion since then.

2. If you're so "sick of this state and its pathetic liberal attitudes", I suggest you look for some place that suits you better. Adios, and don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out!

3. I'm not sure what you mean by this:
"While I am trying offer something WE can use, and DO ... you always retract the the condescending Democrat Mantra and blame everyone else." If you're referring to my reply to the DeMint plan for social security, that's on another thread.

4. Finally, what the @#$%! would Carl Rove know about fighting for freedom? Like so many other Right Wing politicians, he talks the talk but never walked the walked. He dodged the draft because of his political connections and never served his country in the military.

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by buffalojoe
If I'm correct congress declared war on Iraq

Yet again, you're not correct. Congress has not formally declared war since 1941.

Congress passed a resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. A resolution does not have the force of law.


pundit you couldn't handle traditional american heritage...first of all 60 years ago you may have been arrested for the way you talk about the president..

The irony inherent in that paragraph is delicious.

Traditional American heritage is all about criticizing the president and the government. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have a need for elections. Or congress. Or political parties.


you liberals don't realise how you effect the war...how you indirectlky get our kids killed..The enemy feeds off you emotions and anti goverment....we can't torture the enemy we have to fight by the rules of war.we shouldn't be there ...we shouldn't do this and we shouldn't do that..well guess what, the press is right with you. They put allot of pressure on our commanders to change the strategy on how we fight a war. In doing this we fight conventional and that puts are trrops in a bad situation because our commanders are trying to be politically correct,,,,,

Liberals don't indirectly get anyone killed. Bad policy and bad planning and bad execution of a war & subsequent peacekeeping are what get our kids killed.

I supported the war at the time Powell went to the UN because I agreed that UN Security Council resolutions should be obeyed, and that a member nation must face consequences for not obeying them. I believed my President when he said that the CIA were positive that Hussein had WMDs. And WMDs were the sole basis to go to war with Hussein, based on the UN resolutions. Without that, it was an illegal usurpation of a brutal dictator's country's sovereignty. We may hate Hussein, but that doesn't give us the right to overthrow whomever we don't like.

So: I find out that Hussein had no WMDs. I was either lied to, or my country's intelligence service is so inept that it can't get basic information out of that country. Either way, a mess.

So: we went to war. But Bush (who got out of Vietnam service with Daddy's help) didn't listen to the generals. Rumsfeld, who is the most arrogant and inept prick on the plant, also didn't listen to the generals, who called for many many more troops than they got. Not to win the war, but to stabilize Iraq afterwards.

Every day Americans pay the price for Bush & Rumsfeld's ineptitude, poor planning, and stubborn arrogance.

Go ahead and cheerlead for Bush and Rumsfeld. There are 1700 American men and women who won't every see the light of day again because of Bush & Rumsfeld. And there are another 13,000 who have been injured.

But so long as you have your yellow magnetic ribbon on the back of your Hummer H2 - you know - the one even less permanent than a sticker - you're "supporting our troops".


I left the democratic party 3 years ago because the democrates listen to the likes of all those knot heads in massachuetts... and the flamming liberals of California..Honestly I wish we can have half the country and you take the other half. You would be bankrupt in 6 months.
Other then that I love you all. my door is always open, i will feed or help anybody I can....
As I'm getting older and I'm losing more and more friends to death. I'm at the point that I'm madder at the politicians that these kids are dying and most of them couldn't leagally have a drink yet. Then I am at the war itself.

War is a horror, and the only sacrifice you're expected to make is that yellow ribbon. Every single American who isn't in Iraq, or doesn't have a family in Iraq should be ashamed of itself. And everyone who voted for Bush in 2004 in the face of an ever-growing quagmire in Iraq with no solution whatsoever should have a good long think.

[WestSideJohn]

you always retract the the condescending Democrat Mantra and blame everyone else.Wow. Chris bashes Democrats for blaming everyone else but then - in the very same post - blames New York State's troubles on Mario Cuomo who hasn't been governor for... how many years is it now?

How about the same standards applying to everyone? If you criticize someone else for playing the blame game, fine. But don't go playing the blame game yourself two lines later. That just makes you a hypocrite.

Same applies to Democrats, Independents, Avon Ladies, Pro Bowlers, and Trekkies.

[buffknut]

pundit, you again showed zero lack of credibility when you tell me I should be ashamed of myself. That is an asinine statement. Should I also apologize to the world for Iraq? Please advise if I should do that too.

Linda, as I've said, I'm saddened you joined the inmates. Oh well.

I agree with you Crusader re Rove. He was right on the mark.

By the way, go back to my previous posts where I showed numerous quotes from Clinton, Kerry, Gore etc re WMD & Iraq. I'm sure you've already ignored them though. It also appears many of you have more faith in the UN than the US and believe Michael Moore more than YOUR OWN PRESIDENT. I'm sure you are also aghast at Gitmo and Koran abuse too.

As I've repeatedly said, some of us get it, you don't. I'm glad GWB gets it. I'm glad he's running this country & not Kerry, and I'm glad that the Republicans are continuing to pick up congressional & senate seats as well as governorships because the Dem party is very soft on national defense & the war on terror. Until the Dems take it seriously, they are kaput and so are your outdated "I miss Clinton" days. And speaker, Clinton's lack of seriousness directly resulted in 9/11. And you long for that? How sad.

I am however disappointed in Pataki who has turned into a liberal Dem.

[WestSideJohn]

So when a Democrat does something wrong, it's because they're a Democrat. But when a Republican does something wrong, it's because they're secretly a Democrat?

Good lord.

[citymouse]

Republicans make mistakes? Humm....
So Rush isn't always right.

[granpabob]

city mouse and others when you mention the draft dodger are you talking about the president who fled the country to avoid the draft and openly protested against the same government he later was elected to lead. you know the guy who chased so many women he never had time to be a president. at least bush was in the guard clinton just fled.
how can you slam bush when your favorit was a womenizing war protested. fair is fair neither one of them has much of a war record but at least bush stayed in the country and faced it
the days of WWII war heros are over war is not clean cut anymore
as for the dem rep debate giambra was a dem until gorsky fell from grace then giambra changed parties , do you think erie county would ever elect a real rep. giambra was a rep in name only and still is. this state votes rep on everything even pataki who claims tio be rep leans to the left on most issues that is when he isnt leaning towards New York City.
its not time to keep blaiming the past for our problems.roosevelt did this Kenendy did that carter did nothing clinton nixon reagan bush it wont stop they all made mistakes they all also helped our country. if we and I include myself dont stop dwelling in the past we will always be in a hole like this
we are in Irag no so we have to finish it I may not like how long it takes but we cant aboandon what has been started. same with afganistan(SP) in our own county we have the same thing sure I blaim liberal dems you may blaim conservative rep, either way we have a mess to clean up look for sollutions not who to blaim

[granpabob]

And dont blaim my point of veiw on rush .i work nights and sleep during his show. and if his point of veiw is so far off why is his show the most listened to show in history. maybe I should start to listen to him

[Riven37]

You know all through our American history there hasn't been a president who did not get fingers pointed at them during a war or conflict. THere is and always will be some people who will never accept War or the types of War's we fight today or in our past. I guess that's ok but you can speak more if you fought in War yourself ortherwise its just talk to me.

Today, 2005, There isn't a kid and I mean kid in our military uniform who is or was in Iraq figting in combat that I have not said welcome to the brotherhood and given them a hug.

I never want your son's or daughter's to feel those negitive feeling I felt when I came home some 37 years later I still feel those feelings how my country let me down inside me.

Don't let these kids today, think you don't care or their War and the loss of their friends will have meant nothing. They never asked for this War, they are the property of the US Government and are told to go fight don't blame the troops.

For those of you who never seen combat up close and personal, I think you have little to say about it. For those of you who have someone in Iraq ready to come home for good I hope, for God sack I hope. When in the middle of the night that son of yours who will cry out in his/her sleep waking up iin clod sweats and crying, shaking, can't bearth without rappid pace...I hope you say nothing but to hold them in your arms and tell them its ok, its not their fault.

May be, just may be they can go on and live a normal life without thinking of their War experience for the rest of their life each and every day....


In my book you never seen combat....shut up!

[Linda_D]

Grandpa, I'm from the Vietnam Era generation, and I don't hold it against any young man who tried to avoid going to fight there. Nobody wanted to go. That includes Clinton, Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, Cheney, et al.

What I criticize is the hypocracy of these same individuals who didn't serve in Vietnam themselves who now wrap themselves in the American flag and proclaim themselves to be great "patriots" -- ie, people who fought for American freedom -- for their own political gain. Clinton never did that. Bush has done it repeatedly, including the infamous "Mission Accomplished" photo-op in May, 2003.

[dtwarren]

Originally posted by Riven37
You know all through our American history there hasn't been a president who did not get fingers pointed at them during a war or conflict. THere is and always will be some people who will never accept War or the types of War's we fight today or in our past. I guess that's ok but you can speak more if you fought in War yourself ortherwise its just talk to me.

Today, 2005, There isn't a kid and I mean kid in our military uniform who is or was in Iraq figting in combat that I have not said welcome to the brotherhood and given them a hug.

I never want your son's or daughter's to feel those negitive feeling I felt when I came home some 37 years later I still feel those feelings how my country let me down inside me.

Don't let these kids today, think you don't care or their War and the loss of their friends will have meant nothing. They never asked for this War, they are the property of the US Government and are told to go fight don't blame the troops.

For those of you who never seen combat up close and personal, I think you have little to say about it. For those of you who have someone in Iraq ready to come home for good I hope, for God sack I hope. When in the middle of the night that son of yours who will cry out in his/her sleep waking up iin clod sweats and crying, shaking, can't bearth without rappid pace...I hope you say nothing but to hold them in your arms and tell them its ok, its not their fault.

May be, just may be they can go on and live a normal life without thinking of their War experience for the rest of their life each and every day....


In my book you never seen combat....shut up!

Well put Riv. I have never seen actual combat. Fortunately for me I was active duty in one of the light periods '84-'85. Just having been in the service gives one a different perspective.

[NoCtUrNaL]

Personally, I'd never join the armed service until there was a war I personally considered worth fighting.

[speaker]

Anybody see this website?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

:mad:

[speaker]

or this under that website?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

[bflonum1fan]

[QUOTE]quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John F. Kennedy - started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. Then Lyndon Johnson - turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year. Or an average of 16 PER DAY!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And there was a very, very strong anti-war movement that developed and totally changed the direction of American political discourse.

Eisenhower actually was in office when the 1st advisors were sent over to RVN. They were volunteer special forces troops. When I was in the Amry (64-67) there were only volunteers going to RVN. I was one who volunteered.

Only after Kennedy was killed, did LBJ really crank up the military effort. In my opinion the anti war movement was started in Bezerkeley and spread through the campii throughout the country. It was devastating to those who served, and to this day I think it is fair to say that most of the veterans hate liberals and all that they stand for. They have a history of appeasment. Also, IMHO, it was the left wing press who lost the war for the US. Had it not been for that, and the Jane Fondas, and Daniel Ellsbergs of the world, the results would have been different.

And so it is with Iraq, Mr Pundit, you start the drumbeat of impending failure. Well to hell with you and the horse you rode in on.

Pundit, you are very quick with your words and references, but I doubt very much if you know what freedom really is. And who have secured it for you.

BRAVO BUFFALOJOE ! ! !

[buffalojoe]

You know everytime I hear that national anthem whether I was in a military uniform or a law enforcement uniform (I would hold a salute) Or in my civies (I will put my right hand over my heart) I will get tears in my eyes .Those tears are are for everyman women and child who lost there lives or altered thier the lives to give us these freedoms that we so freely wave around like they where always are right.

As I read these replys I thank some of you for positive responces.But I do thank the negitive replys more.

I my self am not a total Rw. I'm an issue guy. As far as voting I vote for who I believe will do the best job. I pretty much learned to mind my own business over the years... This I raq thing I do believe was premeditated. I believe Bush s.r. Pulled the troops out to soon and it caused the Iraqies hundreds of thousands of lives. So bush j.r had to go back and give the U.S some creditibility back... Which I believe was enough reason for war (my opinion)

Now one more brief statement. Liberals protesting a war during a draft is onething. But to protest a war when these kids volenteered. When I joined the service it was just at the end of nam and my tour took me through the Iran hostage situation. Out of 10,000 troups based with me about 99% volenteered to go to Iran. Thats what soilders do they fight. So instead of protesting and complaining, why don't you go sit in your yards read a good book have a glass of red whine and let our soldiers do what they are trained to do . "FIGHT"

[NoCtUrNaL]

Originally posted by buffalojoe
So instead of protesting and complaining, why don't you go sit in your yards read a good book have a glass of red whine and let our soldiers do what they are trained to do . "FIGHT"

We don't have time to sit in our yards and drink wine, we're to busy paying the bill so soldiers can kill or be killed.

[crusader_chris]

I read a few posts including Linda_d and I found them amusing - and I got a kick out of them.

First off, as a CANADIAN I have no way to vote or register to vote but I have kept my ears and eyes open, I just for the life of me cannot find any redeaming points about the current DNC and the collective body of Democrats seem like nutjobs.

Bill Clinton left the Country, so go put your GWB draft dodger ideas in your pipe and smoke it. It's okay for Bill not Geoge huh?

Democrats love to fry any Congressmen who says something that offends them, yet it's a different story if Durbin or Reid or Deans says something utterly pathetic. You talk with fork tongue and that's what makes the DNC so laughable.

I don't have to defend Bush, Rush limbaugh or any of them. I am intelligent enough to decide on the issues.

You all talk a good talk, but where's the BEEF? Where's your leadership crafting great plans and ideas - where are they?

You ain't got any!

And Linda_D - my grandmother used to call me Chrissy ... so thanks for invoking some great memories - But she has class and values life - infact she had 10 kids, you'd much rather abort and focus on your selfish career!

[crusader_chris]

Originally posted by NoCtUrNaL
We don't have time to sit in our yards and drink wine, we're to busy paying the bill so soldiers can kill or be killed.

You might as well Shut down our Military since FIGHTING AND KILLING is what they do. Did you know that? It's what Military is, and I doubt you ever served a day in the Service, it's probably BENEATH you.

I did 4 years USMC - including combat, so I know what the hell I am talking about.

Paying the Bill? ha ha - you probably get all your tax money back and some if you're savvy at all with your taxes - that's a goofy statement.

Spew some more crap from your Silver Lips, it's what you do best!

[speaker]

geez---you're abusive, chris. No call for posts like this.

[NoCtUrNaL]

He seems very bitter and angry. The military must have been a perfect fit for him.

Now that he's a civilian, his only fight is with reality...to bad he's losing.

[avet]

Public isn't buying Bush's 'fake reality show'

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/229956_focus26.html

The shelf life of the fakery that sold the war has also expired. On June 7, a Washington Post/ABC News poll found for the first time that a majority of Americans believe the war in Iraq has not made the United States safer.

A week later Gallup found that a clear majority (59 percent) wants to withdraw some or all U.S. troops. Most Americans tell pollsters the war isn't "worth it," and the top reasons they cite, said USA Today, include "fraudulent claims and no weapons of mass destruction found" and "the belief that Iraq posed no threat to the United States."

_____________________________________________


Here is some evidence\eyewitness\professional accounts of why we are in the state of war at the present time,....

----"IRREGARDLESS" !!!!!-----

of them freekin DEMOCRATS\REPUBLICIANS "SAID THIS..., THEY DID THAT..., THEY DID NOTHING..., BLA, BLA, BLA, etc.

LET'S REVIEW AND LOOK AT THE "FACTS" AS BEST AS WE CAN - IRREGARDLESS OF WHAT DEM\REP WAS IN CHARGE, IN THE PAST OR PRESENT, AS BEST AS WE CAN, IN AN "UNBIASED" OPINION. JUST LIKE ANY NORMAL FORENSIC CASE.

WHY HAS VIRTUALLY ALL THE EVIDENCE, OF A MAJOR CATASTROPHY LIKE THIS ONE WAS, BEEN "TOTALLY ELIMINATED" OR VERY BADLY REPRESSED?

SAME THING HAPPENED WITH OTHER MAJOR CATASTROPHIC EVENTS LIKE:
THE JFK ASSINATION, ROBERT KENNEDY ASSINATION, ETC.

ALL IT DOES IS LEAD TO MORE CHAOS, MORE CONSPIRACY THEORIES, AND NOTHING BUT MORE DOUBTS UPON DOUBTS, AND SHEER UTTER CONTROVERSY.
IN OTHER WORDS - ...."THE PERFECT COVER UP".

WHAT IS THE "PERFECTED" METHOD OF A TRUELY HIGHLY PROFESSIONAL SCAM ARTIST ??

"MISSDIRECTION" !!!!!

ASK YOURSELF THIS:
WHAT BODY OR GROUP, IN THE ENTIRE WORLD HAS THE "ULTIMATE", "MOST HIGHLY ADVANCED", "MOST SECERATIVE POWER", "MOST FINANCES", TO COMMIT THE MOST POWERFULL "MISSDIRECTION" IN THE WORLD ???????????

GIVE UP?? IF YOU DO, PLEASE GO OUTSIDE AND SEE IF YOUR FLAG IS UP (IF YOU STILL "HAVE" A HOUSE).

IF THE ACTUAL, REAL, EVIDENCE OF ANY OTHER, REGULAR CASES OF CRIMES WERE INVESTIGATED IN THE SAME, EXACT, B.S. MANNER -
OUR LEGAL SYSTEM WOULD BE CONSIDERED .....A "TOTAL JOKE"

MORE MONEY WAS SPENT ANALYZING A DRESS THAN 9\11.

IT'S ALL BEEN EXPLAINED AWAY BY THE ADMINISTRATION. RIGHT?
BUT WHAT "IF", THE ADMINISTRATION "IS" ONE OF THE REAL PERPS" ? DO YOU REALLY THINK, THAT THEY ARE THEY JUST GOING TO COME RIGHT OUT AND ADMIT IT ? CAUSE THAT'S THE "AMERICAN WAY" ????

AS IN ANY FORENSIC CASE - USE YOUR "OWN" BRAIN - AND ASK THIS COMMON QUESTION:

WHO IS "ACTUALLY" GAINING, AND STANDS TO PROFIT, OR "IS" PROFITING, FROM WHAT HAS HAPPENED ??

AGAIN, I ASK, WHY BOTHER REHASHING THIS??

CAUSE "A LOT" OF PEOPLE HAVE DIED, AND ARE DYING, AT A GREATER RATE EVERYDAY - FOR SOME VERY TOTALLY WRONG MISSREPRESENTATIONS !

_____________________________________________

WTC Basement Blast And Injured Burn Victim Blows 'Official 9/11 Story' Sky High; Eye Witness Testimony Is Conclusive That North Tower Collapsed From Controlled Demolition

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/article/1518131/28031.htm


Declared a hero for saving numerous lives at Ground Zero, he was the janitor on duty the morning of 9/11 who heard and felt explosions rock the basement sub-levels of the north tower just seconds before the jetliner struck the top floors.

He not only claims he felt explosions coming from below the first sub-level while working in the basement, he says the walls were cracking around him and he pulled a man to safety by the name of Felipe David, who was severely burned from the basement explosions.

In fact, Rodriguez’s story is so damaging – so damning – it literally blows the lid off the government story, literally exposing the whole 9/11 investigation as a sham and a cover-up of the worst kind.

His eyewitness account, backed up by at least 14 people at the scene with him, isn’t speculation or conjecture.

"During the 9/11 hearings, NBC brought a crew out to my house and spent a day taping my story but they never did air a word of it," said Rodriguez. "Since then, some reporters and commentators have subtly warned me to keep quiet, told me my life could be in jeopardy and warned me that I really didn’t understand who I was dealing with.

" I disagree 100%with the government story," said Rodriguez. "I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers.
________________________________________

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/shake.html


Video Evidence of an Explosion at the Base of WTC 1

VIDEO
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtcshake.mpg

The video is a unique piece of footage showing the collapse of WTC 1 and it corroborates the above.

The camera was not hand held, it was directly connected to the ground via a tripod, and this allowed the camera to visually capture a ground shake which occurred 14 seconds before the building collapsed.

The video also shows an object fall from the right hand side of the building moments before the camera begins to shake. The close timing of these two events indicates they are linked.

This brings to mind two questions on the offical "truss theory":

How could trusses failing on floors 90+ of WTC 1 produce a ground shake powerful enough to affect a distant camera?

Why did the shake occur 14 seconds before the collapse of WTC 1? If the shake originated from failing trusses the building should have immediately collapsed.
___________________________________________

The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it.

http://www.freepressinternational.com/wtc_11152004_manager_88888.html

(Short video clip on the site)

Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resiliance of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25, 2001. "The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting".

Demartini, who had an office on the 88th floor of the North Tower, died on 9/11/2001 in the World Trade Center attack.
_________________________________________________


Very small segment of the Naudet brothers' documentary "9/11"

http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/Flashes/squibview.mpg

_________________________________________________


Here's a short clip of the firefighters going into the lobby:

http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/underground/lobby.mpg

__________________________________________________
Hope you have broadband - this one is very good.

EXCELLANT VIDEO of Jeff King giving his professional findings of what forensics he came up with as a professional engineer.

JEFF KING - MIT Engineer\Research Scientist

VIDEO
http://www.reopen911.org/video/cte_07.mov

[bflonum1fan]

geez---you're abusive, chris. No call for posts like this.


Keep it up crusader ! Life is not a debate. It is about beliefs, loyalties, and common sense, and yes patriotism.

The reason for posts like this is that there are too many armchair quarterbacks around here. Avet, meet pundit : you must be sharing web sites. As I said, I think that liberals like you tend to overanalyze things and not give any credibility to the popular vote which did elect GWB by a 4,000,000 vote margin. You guys seem to know it all, and you are so arrogant about it.

Basically, it can be summed up like this : You are sore losers !

[NoCtUrNaL]

The real losers are those that have lost or will lose lives and limbs for no good reason.

[RagingBuffalo]

And Linda_D - my grandmother used to call me Chrissy ... so thanks for invoking some great memories - But she has class and values life - infact she had 10 kids, you'd much rather abort and focus on your selfish career!

WTF? :confused:

[therising]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
So when a Democrat does something wrong, it's because they're a Democrat. But when a Republican does something wrong, it's because they're secretly a Democrat?

Good lord.

I think it's more like "When a Republican doies something wrong, it's the fault of the Democrat who used to be in office"

[therising]

Originally posted by Riven37
In my book you never seen combat....shut up!

The genius remarks coming from this thread are great.

First off, God bless every one of you war veterans.

Secondly, the "we fought, you didn't" mentality is a little troubling.

Who did you think you were fighting for? Yourselves? Each other?

[avet]

I never "once" said I know it all !

That's one of the major problems with your "hero" G.W.B.

We will "never" know it all (the real truth) - not for a very long, long, time after he is gone - he seen fit to take care of that, didn't he?

I could never "hope" to know it all, like you seem to, but I really will, keep trying.

________________________

..."you are so arrogant about it"
________________________

Cause I am questioning what I consider some of the best facts that I can try to "find" ?

Cause what I keep finding, I think, ...."stinks to all hell" ?

Cause I am questioning the actions of your "fearless" leader ?

Cause I don't "blindly" accept everything he says is "gospel" ?

I'm considered "arrogant" ...cause I try to use my head ?

You have absolutely no "reasonable" rebuttal for any of the facts I've presented, except
GWB told me so.

Do you even have any inkling whatsoever how you sound ?


YES,.....DUBAYA LOVES ME SO,

'CAUSE THE MEDIA TELLS ME SO,.....

BHAAAAA! BHAAAA !!

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by NoCtUrNaL
The real losers are those that have lost or will lose lives and limbs for no good reason.

you folks sure take your freedom and liberty for granted, no question about it. Shame on you.

[therising]

Originally posted by crusader_chris
And you use the typical DNC words, like YOU, YOUR...



What does this mean???

Democrats use words like "You, Your".....????

And Chris....you seem to have an attitude of "if our boys want to fight, let them fight. Don't deprive them of the right to fight"

I find that to be odd, and disturbing. It doesn't really work that way.

[NoCtUrNaL]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
you folks sure take your freedom and liberty for granted, no question about it. Shame on you.





Vietnam never jeopardized my freedom.

Iraq never jeopardized my freedom.

In all reality, the greatest threat to the American citizen's freedom is the U.S. government.

[Boost Buffalo]

some peole are just incredibly ungrateful...

[avet]

ENRON (KEN LAY) ?,
CARLYLE GROOUP ?,
BIN LADEN FAMILY ?,

It's a good thing that GWB or Bush Sr. had "nothing" to do with any of these!

DID THEY ?

"secret pipeline" ? "through Afghanistan" ?

______________________________________

"Any White House insider who helped Enron would have gotten rich, filthy rich."
______________________________________


Enron ? Ken Lay is one of GWB's closest friend ?

None of this makes "any sense" or is even "remotely plausable", ...RIGHT?

That's why so much, is considered "national security" and so many investigations were stifled?

Cause that would mean, "everything" were going through is just for ....."PURE GREED"

RIGHT ??

____________________________________________

The Enron Pipeline Connection To 9/11

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0206/S00030.htm

A highly reliable confidential client source who wishes to remain anonymous has promised to send me an FBI copy of a high-level Al Qaida report dating back to the embassy bombings in Africa several years ago. The email report was captured in Africa from the computer file of a senior aid to Osama Bin Laden. My client has obtained this document through lawful means.

The email report, written by Al Qaida's head of military operations, Mohammd Atef, describes Al Qaida's view of ongoing secret pipeline negotiations between the US oil companies and the Taliban to build a pipeline through Afghanistan.

This Al Qaida document may be the first hard evidence to break the Enron pipeline cover-up apart.

Back in the 1970's and 80's, Saudi intelligence (not the CIA as has been reported) funded the early Taliban faction and later Al Qaida as part of the insurgency to throw the Russians out of Afghanistan. A few years afterwards, US energy companies (Enron, as the Afghan pipeline consultant for UNOCAL) used the Saudi intelligence connection to the Taliban to begin negotiations for a pipeline across Afghanistan.

Prince Turki is allegedly close to the Bin Laden family which was allegedly promised the construction contract in return for a percentage to the Saudi Royal family. This is a common business practice initiated by the Carlyle Group's contracts in Saudi Arabia.

As the Republican IPO magazine, Red Herring, confirms, President Bush' father was business partners in the Carlyle Group with the Bin Laden family during this period .

Bush senior lectured his son on placating the Saudis, especially with regard to Israel, and even called the Saudis in his son's presence to reassure them that he had told his son their point of view.

Apparently, the deeply angered President Bush mentioned the
private meeting with his father to a close friend, who leaked it to Red Herring. Shortly afterward, another Republican newspaper, the Boston Herald, ran a scathing expose on the number of White House officials with investments in Saudi oil, calling it an "obscene conflict of interest."

Suddenly, President Bush made a sudden and startling switch to adopt a more pro-Saudi view.

Nevertheless, the Israelis have been privately informed that criminal cases against the Saudi-financed terrorists in the US like Sami Al Arian, are being dropped for "lack of evidence" before the evidence has even been collated.

A plausible explanation for the dramatic policy reversal is that someone (allegedly Cheney) told President Bush to call off the dogs at CIA and FBI, because if the Saudis went down, they would take his father down with them. I think our President has a good heart, but is completely boxed in and does not know how to get out from under his father's legacy.

both Crown Prince Abdullah and President Bush can blackmail each other over the Taliban pipeline. Both sides have agreed to pretend that they have always been allies in the war against terrorism, and that Iraq is the real enemy.

Mutual blackmail makes a bit of sense. The Saudi intelligence connection was the key to get the Taliban pipeline negotiations going without the CIA or FBI finding out. The Enron political connection to the Bush and Clinton administrations was key to keeping the CIA and FBI off of the Saudis' backs while the negotiations were underway. Messy little details about terrorism were swept under the rug for the sake of the big picture.

The truth is already starting to leak out. It has just been discovered that Enron had purchased huge tracts of land in the Caspian basin, especialy in Turkmenistan, which property is allegedly still on their books. The acreage is enormous, and worthless.

But, if the Taliban pipeline had been built, Enron might have owned some of the most valuable oil exploration sites in the world, and rescued itself from insolvency.

Any White House insider who helped Enron would have gotten rich, filthy rich.

When Bush's son came into office, Enron allegedly approached Cheney in late January and told him veguely about the secret Saudi-Taliban pipeline negotiations, and how important it was to America's energy policy for generations to come.

Like an idiot, Cheney agreed to keep the lid on any Saudi-Taliban investigations for a while. For the sake of the Caspian Basin pipeline, Cheney passed the word inside the beltway not to allow anyone in the Government to connect the dots.

All across America, ongoing Saudi-Taliban investigations were hindered, obstructed, or closed down, just as the Clinton administration had done before them.

What no one did was check Enron's accounting. The pipeline deal made little economic sense in view of Russian cooperation. To Enron's horror, the pipeline deal collapsed in August. Then came 9/11. Then came the Enron collapse. Then came the Cheney coverup.

Cheney's biggest problem is the two fairly senior intelligence officalls who rebelled and became whistleblowers: Robert Baer of CIA and John O'Neill of FBI. The rest of the FBI and CIA higher ups have kept their mouths shut, although a lot of lower level people are now coming forward to question their superior's strange behavior. The two rebels, Baer of CIA and O'Neill of FBI, were of course, driven into retirement.

Much of the Saudi information was blacked out of Baer's book by CIA censors, but enough remains to thoroughly document the brazen avarice of senior Clinton NSC officials for a Caspian Basin pipeline.

Baer names a few names, but he was driven into retirement before he could learn too much. Still, he learned that both Republican and Democratic officials were involved with the pipeline coverup to the great detriment of American intelligence.

The worst condemnation ever written of the financial corruption in the Clinton administration can be found in the last chapters of Robert Baer's recent book, "See No Evil", where he blames the pipeline coverup for substantially contributing to 9/11.

Baer's book makes a strong case, as do O'Neills friends in France with their book. The explanation is raw and blunt. No partisan politics, just greed. A crooked handful of high level officials in the Clinton and Bush administration were clearly obsessed with the Caspian pipeline plan.

Cheney was not the first to block the investigations, but he is probably the last to be involved with the coverup. That could explain why he is resisting Congress on both the Enron and pre-9/11 intelligence documents. If Congress ever connects the two investigations, the whole house of cards will collapse.

It is, however, theoretically possible that the President may have known about the pipeline deal from his own sources.

President Bush's father was the leading lobbbyist for the Saudis and may have been told everything by his Carlyle Group partners, the Bin Laden family, who were supposedly in line to get the Taliban pipelne construction contract. But it is doubtful we will ever know what Bush senior told his son while the pipeline negotiations were underway.

In terms of the upcoming Congressional investigation, the Al Qaida document is the first direct written evidence to confirm the existence of secret pipeline negotations with the Taliban. Moreover, it confirms that Al Qaida was informed of these negotiations from the earliest stages.

The Saudis could certainly have tipped off the Taliban that the fix was in. It is hard to believe that the Bin Laden construction company did not learn anything from their Carlyle group partners about the pipeline.

Whatever the source, the early date of the Atef report shows that the highest levels of Al Qaida certainly knew about the pipeline secret from the beginning. The pipeline coverup could have convinced Atef that Al Qaida could expoit the lack of coordinated intelligence against them.

In addition to the usual inter-agency bungling, the Enron cover-up was the real reason for the black hole in US intell about events in Afghanistan, and plausibly explains why no US agency was allowed to connect the dots. Moreover it explains why honest officials like Baer and O'Neill were driven into retirement.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by crusader_chris
You might as well Shut down our Military since FIGHTING AND KILLING is what they do. Did you know that? It's what Military is, and I doubt you ever served a day in the Service, it's probably BENEATH you.

I did 4 years USMC - including combat, so I know what the hell I am talking about.

Paying the Bill? ha ha - you probably get all your tax money back and some if you're savvy at all with your taxes - that's a goofy statement.

Spew some more crap from your Silver Lips, it's what you do best!

You are a Canadian living in Clarence who served 4 years in the USMC? I think I have that right.

Now, why would a Canadian who served in the US military and lives in the US NOT become a US citizen? Hmmm... could it be that the security of that "socialized" medical system across the river holds a lot more attraction to this Bush supporter than he lets on???

BTW, if you're Canadian, why are you so interested in American foreign and national affairs?

[bflonum1fan]

Avet, you and Tom Clancy should get together. You seem to think that the whole thing is a big conspiracy.

Enron, Haliburton, yada yada yada ! It's all about the oil, right ?
Well let's see if they want to drink it !

[crusader_chris]

You know nothing Linda... except what jibberish fills that head of yours and what whispers you hear alone.

My Father is an MD and he purposely left a failing system in Ontario, and it's not so great, if you actually paid attention you'd know Doctors are fleeing Socialized Healthcare, becaus ehte system sucks - you must listen to Hillary who says Canada has a National System - so untrue - but if you want to adopt it, then multiply it by 10X and have it here, so much for any penny that sits untouched. You cannot change Doctors in Canada and it took my cousin 2 years to see an OB-GYN in Ontario - where you haven't nearly the option you have here - but then again, you know all the answers right Linda?

There is nothing attractive about the Canadian System Linda - You have it so good... you just must be crazy to say those things or as I presumed, pathetically ignorant.

Still a Canadian YES ... why would I want to be like YOU? You have nothing I would want, that I already have and more to come thanks to my abilities.

I don't plug myself into political parties, or the crap you spew, and the hate you breathe ... I prefer my free will and ability to roam free, unemcumbered by borders and concepts, and I might add I live and think much free-er than you will ever.

I left Yahoo Boards for the same reason I will be done with this one, this website is getting too off coarse and I find the nuts too close to home.

GOOD NIGHT - MY FINAL POST!

[avet]

_________________________________

"You seem to think that the whole thing is a big conspiracy."
_________________________________

Only when way too many facts, and so many of his actions, past and present, make it appear to be "just" that.


__________________________________

Enron, Haliburton, yada yada yada ! It's all about the oil, right ?
__________________________________

RIGHT.


The Bush's, Sr and Jr., had NOTHING personal to do with Enron, or Ken Lay, or the Saudie's ?

Neither Enron nor Haliburton have committed extremely grevious crimes, and have deep connections into the present administration in any way.

Is that what your saying?


Do your binders filter out UV too ?

Or I should say ...."blindfold" !


___________________________________

Well let's see if they want to drink it !
___________________________________

? ? ? ? ? ?

[Riven37]

Originally posted by crusader_chris
You might as well Shut down our Military since FIGHTING AND KILLING is what they do. Did you know that? It's what Military is, and I doubt you ever served a day in the Service, it's probably BENEATH you.

I did 4 years USMC - including combat, so I know what the hell I am talking about.

Paying the Bill? ha ha - you probably get all your tax money back and some if you're savvy at all with your taxes - that's a goofy statement.

Spew some more crap from your Silver Lips, it's what you do best!



Chris I to was a USMC...check your package !!!!!

[Riven37]

Originally posted by crusader_chris
You know nothing Linda... except what jibberish fills that head of yours and what whispers you hear alone.

My Father is an MD and he purposely left a failing system in Ontario, and it's not so great, if you actually paid attention you'd know Doctors are fleeing Socialized Healthcare, becaus ehte system sucks - you must listen to Hillary who says Canada has a National System - so untrue - but if you want to adopt it, then multiply it by 10X and have it here, so much for any penny that sits untouched. You cannot change Doctors in Canada and it took my cousin 2 years to see an OB-GYN in Ontario - where you haven't nearly the option you have here - but then again, you know all the answers right Linda?

There is nothing attractive about the Canadian System Linda - You have it so good... you just must be crazy to say those things or as I presumed, pathetically ignorant.

Still a Canadian YES ... why would I want to be like YOU? You have nothing I would want, that I already have and more to come thanks to my abilities.

I don't plug myself into political parties, or the crap you spew, and the hate you breathe ... I prefer my free will and ability to roam free, unemcumbered by borders and concepts, and I might add I live and think much free-er than you will ever.

I left Yahoo Boards for the same reason I will be done with this one, this website is getting too off coarse and I find the nuts too close to home.

GOOD NIGHT - MY FINAL POST!


Stand down Marine ! Check your PTSD Package !!

[Riven37]

Originally posted by bflonum1fan
Avet, you and Tom Clancy should get together. You seem to think that the whole thing is a big conspiracy.

Enron, Haliburton, yada yada yada ! It's all about the oil, right ?
Well let's see if they want to drink it !



Tom Clancy writes books for entertainment and he knows its just that entertainment to make money...why do you think Clancy's books are real life ???

You people are killing me hehehe

[Riven37]

Here's my question to you all. You all seem to know something about how to run political policy of our government like the Presidency then, why haven't any of you ever ran for persident and if you have did you win ??

You guys like other policy arm chair presidents make me laugh...you want the truth...you can't handle the truth !!!:D

[bflonum1fan]

Our great lefty, pundit says :

We know precisely what's wrong with NYS and Erie County. And we're smart enough to realize that things have to change. And we're open-minded enough to realize that fundamental change in NYS is a non-partisan issue.

Non-partisan ? If you have lived in NYS for any period of time, you probably agree that there are basically 2 entities here : New York City and environs and Upstate. NYC has run the state for as long as I can remember. NYC (a blue city, as are most) contain most of the socialist, union loving, what can gov't do for me today, democrats on the planet.

Having said this, NYS is screwed because with such inbred, litigious, left leaning politicians (including Pataki, who kisses up to the big apple), there is no hope.

The only hope for NYS and EC is if we are able to get citizen referendum.

Liberal and conservative is more a state of mind. As I see it, it is the liberal mentality and all they stand for that is bankrupt of ideas.

[speaker]

JUst go on and on chanting forever. You guys are doing a great job of splitting up this board. We all want to improve conditions here in Erie county and we'll never do it this way.
I just don't like it when a thread is peppered with anti liberal "hillary Schumer" type of remarks. And please don't go back and dredge up a lot of old posts where you perceive, for real or not, that we "started it".
Let's just drop it and get on with the county business.
I think the opposing posters, me included, all speak for themselves and paint the picture of polarization in America.
Please, no more abusive posts. They're so self defeating. And they say nothing but describe personalities of the poster.
Let's put it down to the heat, which we're all NOT used to.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by crusader_chris
You know nothing Linda... except what jibberish fills that head of yours and what whispers you hear alone.

My Father is an MD and he purposely left a failing system in Ontario, and it's not so great, if you actually paid attention you'd know Doctors are fleeing Socialized Healthcare, becaus ehte system sucks - you must listen to Hillary who says Canada has a National System - so untrue - but if you want to adopt it, then multiply it by 10X and have it here, so much for any penny that sits untouched. You cannot change Doctors in Canada and it took my cousin 2 years to see an OB-GYN in Ontario - where you haven't nearly the option you have here - but then again, you know all the answers right Linda?

There is nothing attractive about the Canadian System Linda - You have it so good... you just must be crazy to say those things or as I presumed, pathetically ignorant.

Still a Canadian YES ... why would I want to be like YOU? You have nothing I would want, that I already have and more to come thanks to my abilities.

I don't plug myself into political parties, or the crap you spew, and the hate you breathe ... I prefer my free will and ability to roam free, unemcumbered by borders and concepts, and I might add I live and think much free-er than you will ever.

I left Yahoo Boards for the same reason I will be done with this one, this website is getting too off coarse and I find the nuts too close to home.

GOOD NIGHT - MY FINAL POST!

Chris, YOU took this discussion off course by claiming to be a Canadian who served in the USMC. If you live in a country, voluntarily serve in its military, and have an interest in that country's national politics and international affairs, it seems odd to me that you wouldn't become a citizen. It wasn't like you were drafted into the Marines.

The real problem you have, Chris, is that you can't accept that people who don't agree with you have valid arguments for what they believe -- sometimes more valid than the ones that you have. When you find that you can't defend your positions (or in this case, GWB's postions), you resort to standard right wing diatribes, personal attacks, and plain ol' nastiness. It may work for the likes of Limbaugh and Savage on the radio but it's not going to work on a message board.

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by bflonum1fan
[QUOTE]Pundit, you are very quick with your words and references, but I doubt very much if you know what freedom really is. And who have secured it for you.
BRAVO BUFFALOJOE ! ! !

How do you know what I know?

My father was drafted in 1961 into the Yugoslav People's Army under a communist regime. He left communism in 1966 to come to the US and make a better life for himself & my mom.

I was born in 1968.

My father was then drafted into the US military in 1969, and given immediate citizenship.

My entire extended family remained in Yugoslavia, and we visited and spent sometimes entire summers living there - under communist rule.

I experienced the totalitarian nature of communism from the pettiest inconvenience, to the most egregious civil rights abuses.

And every such experience made me appreciate who I was, where I came from, and where I lived.

So, please: take your holier-than-thou attitude and your ad hominem attacks and stick them in any crevice of your body that you choose.

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by bflonum1fan
Our great lefty, pundit says :


Non-partisan ? If you have lived in NYS for any period of time, you probably agree that there are basically 2 entities here : New York City and environs and Upstate. NYC has run the state for as long as I can remember. NYC (a blue city, as are most) contain most of the socialist, union loving, what can gov't do for me today, democrats on the planet.

Having said this, NYS is screwed because with such inbred, litigious, left leaning politicians (including Pataki, who kisses up to the big apple), there is no hope.

The only hope for NYS and EC is if we are able to get citizen referendum.

Liberal and conservative is more a state of mind. As I see it, it is the liberal mentality and all they stand for that is bankrupt of ideas.

What's your point?

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by buffknut
pundit, you again showed zero lack of credibility when you tell me I should be ashamed of myself. That is an asinine statement. Should I also apologize to the world for Iraq? Please advise if I should do that too.

Linda, as I've said, I'm saddened you joined the inmates. Oh well.

I agree with you Crusader re Rove. He was right on the mark.

By the way, go back to my previous posts where I showed numerous quotes from Clinton, Kerry, Gore etc re WMD & Iraq. I'm sure you've already ignored them though. It also appears many of you have more faith in the UN than the US and believe Michael Moore more than YOUR OWN PRESIDENT. I'm sure you are also aghast at Gitmo and Koran abuse too.

As I've repeatedly said, some of us get it, you don't. I'm glad GWB gets it. I'm glad he's running this country & not Kerry, and I'm glad that the Republicans are continuing to pick up congressional & senate seats as well as governorships because the Dem party is very soft on national defense & the war on terror. Until the Dems take it seriously, they are kaput and so are your outdated "I miss Clinton" days. And speaker, Clinton's lack of seriousness directly resulted in 9/11. And you long for that? How sad.

I am however disappointed in Pataki who has turned into a liberal Dem.

So, you're for the abuse of prisoners who are held indefinitely without charge or trial. Bully for you. And you're also for the desecration of holy books. That must be fantastic next time someone goes to the bathroom on a Bible "inadvertently."

Karl Rove is a national disgrace. He twists the truth - he accuses democrats (read his statement; he lumps all democrats in) of not supporting the war in Afghanistan, yet congress voted 420-1 and Senate voted 98-0 to go to war in Afghanistan after 9/11. He'a a liar, and anyone who says "good for Karl Rove" has zero clue what he's talking about. Learn to use google.

As for 9/11, Clinton takes the blame? That's a laugh. Last time I checked, Bush had been president for 9 months. That seems like ample enough time to reverse Clintons "non-seriousness".

As for being ashamed, you don't have to be. It's just that you should. As should everyone who has endured no sacrifice whatsoever as a result of this war. In WWII, there was shared sacrifice among all the population. Even during Vietnam, because of the draft.

But now? A bunch of housefraus in their Nissan Pathfinders - their sacrifice is $2.25/gal gasoline and a little magnetic non-permanent yellow ribbon. What patriotism indeed.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Riven37
You know all through our American history there hasn't been a president who did not get fingers pointed at them during a war or conflict. THere is and always will be some people who will never accept War or the types of War's we fight today or in our past. I guess that's ok but you can speak more if you fought in War yourself ortherwise its just talk to me.

Today, 2005, There isn't a kid and I mean kid in our military uniform who is or was in Iraq figting in combat that I have not said welcome to the brotherhood and given them a hug.

I never want your son's or daughter's to feel those negitive feeling I felt when I came home some 37 years later I still feel those feelings how my country let me down inside me.

Don't let these kids today, think you don't care or their War and the loss of their friends will have meant nothing. They never asked for this War, they are the property of the US Government and are told to go fight don't blame the troops.

For those of you who never seen combat up close and personal, I think you have little to say about it. For those of you who have someone in Iraq ready to come home for good I hope, for God sack I hope. When in the middle of the night that son of yours who will cry out in his/her sleep waking up iin clod sweats and crying, shaking, can't bearth without rappid pace...I hope you say nothing but to hold them in your arms and tell them its ok, its not their fault.

May be, just may be they can go on and live a normal life without thinking of their War experience for the rest of their life each and every day....

In my book you never seen combat....shut up!

Riven, I think that you may believe opponents to the Iraq war don't support the troops who are fighting it. I think I can speak for all the anti-war posters who have posted on this thread and say that it's not the soldiers who are fighting in Iraq that we have problems with, but rather the people and their wrong-headed policies who put them in harm's way that we criticize.

American soldiers are sent to fight where the POTUS sends them; they don't go on their own. It was GWB and his advisors, all of whom are of an age to have served in Vietnam and all of whom avoided Vietnam or avoided military service completely, who concocted this harebrained scheme. This war wasn't about WMD or terrorists or Iraq being a threat to the US; these were simply convenient excuses to get rid of Saddam Hussein (check out Speaker's links to the New American Century site -- the signees of the 1998 letter to Bill Clinton are the same White House War Mongers who cooked up this war).

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by Riven
In my book you never seen combat....shut up!Why do I have the feeling that your "no combat, no voice" policy only applies to people on one side of the issue?

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by buffalopundit


As for 9/11, Clinton takes the blame? That's a laugh. Last time I checked, Bush had been president for 9 months. That seems like ample enough time to reverse Clintons "non-seriousness".




its no wonder why the libs arent taken seriously anymore.

I'm amused at how many liberals now claim "independant" status. Its as if their name was the problem.

Its not the name...

[speaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by speaker
....... He's a little kid playing with tin soldiers........
[/QUOTE

I was speaking of GWB---he is a politician puppet in the hands of power happy men. And I mean toys, "tin soldiers".
Our soldiers are nothing but faceless numbers to him, not flesh and blood, not brothers and sons.
I repeating this so our vets, our soldiers, know we are patriotic and support them, we love them and worry over them.
And we thank them, from the very bottom of our hearts.

[steven]

Here we go again........
"If your against the war your against the troops"

BS! That's the classic "I have no good argument as to why we are over there so I will try to shame you out of yours." Are we not smart enough not to fall for that crap?

Bottom Line No wmd and no ties to 9/11. The British press have dug up memos from Blair telling Bush this was in fact the case long before the first soldier was deployed. He should be impeached for lying to the country! Here is a clue for the clueless. There are Concentration camps, warlords, despots, and genocide going on every day in Africa and south America. If the US is is going to invade every little pissant country with an evil dictator then tighten your seat belts boys and girls... we might finish up some time 50 yrs from now.

The economy is in the toilet, jobs are being outsourced everyday to overseas countries and at the presidents inaugural he shows up with Iraqis with purple fingers. Whoopee do.
Trivia question: What was the first form of government the Bush admin set up in Iraq after toppling Saddam?
Answer: A national healthcare system of the same type he refuses to have here in the U.S.

Another news flash. The war is over. Its been over. Some people don't seem to get that. What the soldiers are doing now is police duty not soldier duty.

I hate to be so aggressive when posting but this thread has really hit a sore spot. I am so sick and tired of people assuming just because someone has or does serve he automatically jumps on the bush bandwagon. I also have a lot of friends across the pond and can say unequivocally that Bush is the most disliked American president in my life time. No European countries trusts us anymore and we have lost the ability to lead the free world as we did before. ......... Wait a second, isn't that funny as hell? Bush won the election because he told the American people he had the moral compass, but by lying about WMD and 9/11 he lost the moral compass to lead the world.
*Sigh* End of long winded rant

[buffknut]

Steven, you are also wrong on all fronts so you can join the rest of your "I hate Bush" friends on this forum. Who cares if the Europeans hate us? What exactly good do they do? Europe, with some exceptions, has become irrelevant on the world stage.

We can't lead? That's a joke. The USA leads the way around the world. You obviously don't see what's going on in Lebanon, Iraq, Azerbijan (sp) and all over the world where people are embracing positive change thanks to GWB and the USA (see www.publiuspundit.com for a roundup of world news).

You also prefer to believe the UN, France, Michael Moore, Kennedy, Kerry, and all the rest of the anti-US crowd, instead of YOUR OWN PRESIDENT OF THE USA.

You want the US to fail. You help play right into the hands of al-jezeera and the like. You are part of the problem.

I'm saddened that Crusader Chris has tired of this forum. He was a voice of reason. There are a few others here who get it, but Steven, you do not.

I too, am tired of the left-wing Democratic rhetoric (despite many of you retreating from being called left wing or liberal - I guess you may be ashamed of that label after all). But I'll stick around if for no other reason than to annoy you all.

Gore lost, Kerry lost, and Democrats are losing seats in Congress & Senate & Governorships (see www.polipundit.com). So more Americans apparently reject your viewpoint than accept it. Maybe it's because they could care less about hurting the feelings of those poor Europeans. Boo-Hoo.

Seemingly the only place where you can go to espouse your BS is on a liberal Democratic forum like this one. Maybe you and the other inmates can organize a "We're Sorry" party. That's about all you're good for.

[avet]

____________________________________________

"Europe, with some exceptions, has become irrelevant on the world stage."
____________________________________________

Because that's the way the "GLOBAL CAPITALISTIC - NWO" wants it.
In the same way, the many poor\ex-vets\jobless right here are treated - "irrelevant".

You obviously don't see what's going on ..."RIGHT HERE" !

__________________________________________

"You also prefer to believe the UN, France, Michael Moore, Kennedy, Kerry, and all the rest of the anti-US crowd, instead of YOUR OWN PRESIDENT OF THE USA."
__________________________________________
YES.

But were not, "anti-US". We just care more than you, and see it a lot more "realistically" than you ever will, stuck in your trance.

__________________________________________

But I'll stick around if for no other reason than to annoy you all.
__________________________________________
It's not, what I would say, you really should be "proud of".


Can you even imagine a USA that did'nt have to finance this contrived, illegal war? The TONS of money we'd have to better ourselves, strengthen our nation, our borders, & military?
________________________________________
"Ready for a permanent 60% increase in federal taxes? U.S. government spending is out of control..."
"The total gap? A $47 trillion shortfall, says this article."
________________________________________
Hospital bills spin out of control
USA TODAY
Hospital sticker shock is hitting the USA.
It isn't just $5-a-pill aspirin. Daily room charges exceed $5,000 in some New Jersey hospitals.
Critics say hospitals are....
... unfairly using their growing clout in many markets and charging far more than it costs to provide services.
Spending on hospital care is the fastest-growing segment of the nation's health care tab.
_________________________________________

Imagine a properly "managed", "affordable" health system -
Medicaid\health care problems could be "history" - for EVERYBODY - EVERYWHERE!
We wouldn't mandatoraly need "exploitive" INSURANCE companies to RAPE the public with OUTRAGIOUS insureance rates, and make HUGE profits, BEYOND what we are ALREADY OVERCHARGED IN THE FIRST PLACE, by the HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

What a freekin industry - thriving on the profits and misery of the masses of the "have nots", who have to pay for the necessities of the "have mores" !!

_________________________________________
Why Medicare, Public Housing and Other Government Programs Are Out of Control--And Will Stay That Way

"...any federal government and most state government "solutions" create "large, complex social bureaucracies." Until we have creative alternatives, these one-size-fits-all "solutions" will fail.
Costs grow faster than any estimated efficiencies. We see this everyday. School systems consolidate to gain efficiencies, yet taxes keep going up and scores keep going down.
_________________________________________


Imagine school taxes\teachers salaries\school costs that were "reasonable". Everyone could afford to get a better education - without having to mortgage half their career away or have to be born to someone who is one of the "have mores" . Technolodgy would "boom" and our nation could excel like the proud nation it once was.

The vast amount of teachers it would create, could spread "education" among those who still, in this very day and age, use cannibalism, weird rituals, and are ruled by severe teranny, etc. in their poor and extremely starving society.

The WEAK could fight back INTELLIGENTLY - NOT WITH AN AK-47\RPG under every bed !!

But that's the way the new globalistc "powers that be" WANT IT !

How else can you get "volunteers" to FIGHT, unless you dangle that "chance" at getting an education, like a "PORKCHOP" in front of their noses ? They have made it so it's, their ONLY chance and opportunity (in this great nation?).

Are there any "have more" kids fighting?

Are there any "have more" kids struggling to get an education?

How much more "manipulative" and clever can it be????

Education is the key - not "their" FREEKIN, %$#$*, STINKIN' WAR!

How do you ultimitely\easily control the masses?
MAKE GETTING AN EDUCATION - OUT OF REACH FOR THE MASSES.
MAKE THE GOVERNMENTS CONTROL VERY, VERY, UNNECESSARILY COMPLEX
MAKE HEALTH CARE - OUT OF REACH FOR THE MASSES.
MAKE DECENT LIVINGS\JOBS OUT OF REACH FOR THE MASSES.


THE GOVERNMENT "CAN", AND "HAS" THE POWER TO STOP ALL THIS -
BUT NEVER, EVER, WILL - THE WAY IT IS SETUP NOW.

As long as it is RUN by the "have mores" who personally ..."OWN IT".

(you don't like that term - to bad - "BUSH" -the acting leader, of the most powerful nation in the world, created it, using it in PUBLIC, referring to himself and his supporters - and that's a fact).

[buffknut]

Avet, I think you're a closet socialist.

Bush is the PRESIDENT OF THE USA. Not the "acting leader". You are part of the "I hate Bush" crowd so I can't take you seriously despite your lengthy, difficult to read posts.

Get used to it for 3+ years longer.

Then you can vote for Hillary. Put the sign on your lawn now.

I hope Michael Moore's next film will see you first in line. You have now admitted you are beholden to the liberal Democrats that you believe so firmly in. Congratulations.

You clearly don't get it. You are a lost cause. you are part of the problem. Please renew your MSM subscriptions and make sure you sign up for al-jezeera on your satellite.

Remember, the majority of Americans are voting for change and the Dems are losing their grip. That's a fact.

[avet]

....I can't take you seriously despite your lengthy, difficult to read posts.
FORGET OUR COPY OF "SOLDIER OF FORTUNE " MAGAZINE

IN THE BEEMER, DID WE ??

[avet]

Results 1 - 10 of about 2,790,000
--- for ----
BUSH IS THE MOST HATED PRESIDENT IN HISTORY

2,790,000 ??????????????????

HOLY SH** !!! ALMOST THREE MILLION !!!!

NOW THAT'S SATURATING THE FREE MEDIA WITH HIS POPULARITY !!!

------------------------------------------------
"Even NY Times centrist pundit Thomas Friedman says, "I have never known a time in my life when America and its president were more hated around the world than today."
------------------------------------------------
Most hated president in history!
And this is just here. The rest of the planet hates him even more than we do.
Bush's Poll Position Is Worst on Record.
-------------------------------------------------
We can support the troops without supporting the President.
— Disgraced Republican Trent Lott, failing to support the U.S. president, during the Kosovo crisis.
-------------------------------------------------
Bush has the most dangerously simplistic view of the world of any president in my memory.
--------------------------------------------------
Bush is the most prone-to-classify, the most secretive president in the 20th century. His administration leans dangerously toward the authoritarian.
---------------------------------------------------
Bush's foreign policy has been a dangerous disaster. He's almost restarted the Cold War with Russia and the nuclear arms race. America is not only hated in the Middle East, but it has few friends anywhere in the world thanks to the arrogance and ineptness
of the Bush administration.
---------------------------------------------------


I'd list some more, but, I do have compassion for your "I hate to read" problems.

[speaker]

Originally posted by buffknut
Remember, the majority of Americans are voting for change and the Dems are losing their grip. That's a fact.

No, but it sure sounds like you and biker need to get a grip. If we were all talking together you and biker would be shouting and gesticulating, because that's the only way you can win argument. Your argument is no argument but a series of put downs, condecension insults and yelling. This is all too familiar and I don't like it. The discussion quickly decayed into nonsense with you and your fellow believers, buffknut, but I have to think that even a few republicans get a giggle out of it.
Don't ever say anything, just insult, go off the track, change your mind abruptly---but, carry a little flag and wave a big stick. That'll help us get out of this situation.

[avet]

"According to the prestigious Southern California think tank, The Gluton Group"

---NOT---

Michael Moore, or me, or Stevens, or Speaker, etc.


... cood it b troo?

_______________________________________
Stupid people love Bush
New study shows correlation between decline of IQ and rise of GOP

"Stupid people love Bush" new study proves According to the prestigious Southern California think tank, The Gluton Group, stupid people prefer President George W Bush over Senator John Kerry by a 4-to-1 margin. As Chief Resident Dr. Louis Friend characterized the results of the research, "the less intelligent you are, the more you like Bush." This landmark study, conducted over a 5 month period, involved 2400 likely voters bridging all economic stratas in the 17 states generally considered up for grabs on November 2nd. Participants were tested for intelligence, then asked to fill out a 12 page series of questions involving the Presidential candidates with results released earlier this week.
The consensus: the higher the IQ, the less people trust Bush and respect the job his administration has done. The lower the IQ, the more people admire his steadfastness. "It was pretty much a slam dunk. There's no nice way to say this. Dumb people like him. They think his unwavering nature is a positive personality trait. They even venerate him for never admitting mistakes, even when he's wrong. On the other hand, smart people think he's a lying bully. I mean, c'mon, you have a deserter accusing a decorated veteran of treason. Who's going to buy that besides stupid people?"

Preliminary results:
IQ Above 140: Kerry 80%, Bush 20%.
120-140: Kerry 65%, Bush 35%.
100-120: Kerry 54%, Bush 46%.
80-100: Bush 54%, Kerry 46%.
60-80: Bush 60%, Kerry 15%, Dale Earnhardt Jr. 25%.

Apparently Bush's good-evil, black-white philosophy resonates on an inverse relationship with higher education, whereas it became evident over the period of analysis that John Kerry's nuanced arguments are only understood by people who paid attention in any class above the 5th grade.

Doctor Friend elaborated: "It has to do with intellectual curiosity. Folks see Bush in front of a stream talking about the environment and they assume he's in favor of it, even though if you read his legislation, I'd be surprised to hear him endorse shade. This also explains why Bush gets away with pretending he doesn't know how the Senate works, allowing him to call Kerry a flip-flopper."

Friend released evidence that this type of disconnect exists across the board: education, foreign policy, the economy, post 9-11 security response and State Dinner entertainment choices. Also discovered was a direct correlation between the number of preset Country Western stations on car radios and Bush's approval rating. Dr. Friend attributes this phenomena to the simplicity inherent in the messages indigenous to both. Classical music listeners were preponderantly Kerry supporters, but surprisingly, on heavy metal, the two split down the middle.

Spotting a trend, Friend cautioned, "Because of the deterioration in public education, larger and larger segments of the population are creeping downward IQ-wise, cementing the hold Republicans have on the electorate." However, if the election were held today, Bush would hold a lead of 52-48 in the popular vote, but would be virtually tied in the Electoral College, which Bush supporters argue against because the word College angers them. When contacted, a Kerry spokesman just chuckled. No Bush spokesperson was made available for comment. It was also found that Ralph Nader supporters were the brightest of all political proponents tested, but Dr. Friend dismissed them as "too smart for their own good."

[crlachepinochet]

Originally posted by buffknut
Steven, you are also wrong on all fronts so you can join the rest of your "I hate Bush" friends on this forum. Who cares if the Europeans hate us? What exactly good do they do? Europe, with some exceptions, has become irrelevant on the world stage.

We can't lead? That's a joke. The USA leads the way around the world. You obviously don't see what's going on in Lebanon, Iraq, Azerbijan (sp) and all over the world where people are embracing positive change thanks to GWB and the USA (see www.publiuspundit.com for a roundup of world news).

You also prefer to believe the UN, France, Michael Moore, Kennedy, Kerry, and all the rest of the anti-US crowd, instead of YOUR OWN PRESIDENT OF THE USA.

You want the US to fail. You help play right into the hands of al-jezeera and the like. You are part of the problem.

I'm saddened that Crusader Chris has tired of this forum. He was a voice of reason. There are a few others here who get it, but Steven, you do not.

I too, am tired of the left-wing Democratic rhetoric (despite many of you retreating from being called left wing or liberal - I guess you may be ashamed of that label after all). But I'll stick around if for no other reason than to annoy you all.

Gore lost, Kerry lost, and Democrats are losing seats in Congress & Senate & Governorships (see www.polipundit.com). So more Americans apparently reject your viewpoint than accept it. Maybe it's because they could care less about hurting the feelings of those poor Europeans. Boo-Hoo.

Seemingly the only place where you can go to espouse your BS is on a liberal Democratic forum like this one. Maybe you and the other inmates can organize a "We're Sorry" party. That's about all you're good for.

Lost the popular vote the first time, and won with the slimmest margin for a sitting president in history while setting the agenda. I'm so sick of people making it sound like John Q. Public camped outside polling places, broke down the doors, and voted for Bush in a landslide. 51%-49% is some landslide, huh? And Bush struts around the White House talking about the "mandate" he has been given.

I'm afraid that biker may have just substituted his websites for the mainstream media that he claims we all blindly follow. Did you ever think, biker, that you think these sites are beacons of truth because that is what you'd like to hear? It's good to question the media, just like it is good to question the president. Everyone has an agenda to get out, even publiuspundit.com and polipundit.com.

[Boost Buffalo]

you libs still crying over the election?

Amazed that Kerry was the best you could run...its shameful. Libs will vote for anything liberal. First Gore, then Kerry...amazing. Who's next, Hillary? Good grief.

You folks are downright irresponsible. And How's that ambulance chaser Kerry's prettyboy doing? Talk about a posterchild for the need for legal reform. He's it.

[WestSideJohn]

The post immediately above mine is the perfect example of the sort of attitude that's doing serious harm to our nation. Rational discussion of issues and solutions has been replaced by insults, ad hominum attacks, and the neverending quest to portray anyone who doesn't share the same point of view as "them" instead of "us."

I see it every day coming from Liberal Democrats and Conservative Republicans. Posts filled with statements like "you libs" or "you wingnuts" or whatever. It's appalling. We have enough real enemies without people turning on fellow Americans who happen to have a different point of view.

Grow up.

[bflonum1fan]

Well all you have to do is read through the 7 (or 8) pages of this thread to find out who the real libs are. They are able to spend an immense amount of time coming up with 'authoritaive' sources to make their case. That's because they aren't able to do so from their own set of beliefs, which are limited . . . limited to the 'I hate Bush' and sore loser mentality.

In short you are brainwashed by the likes of moveon.org, probably NPR and PBS, all liberal media outposts.

Most of all, you libs have shown that the cultural divide in this country are probably more severe than they were prior to the Civil War. We now are probably closer to a civil war in this country than in Iraq. Trouble is, you guys don't have any guns ! You've managed to legislate them away.

You are so predictable, it's too boring to cntinue with this thread.
I'm outta here . . . have a great life.

:D

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
The post immediately above mine is the perfect example of the sort of attitude that's doing serious harm to our nation.

harm? get real. This country is solid, and the libs cant stand it. All libs do is claim how awful everything is, its remarkable. And then they root for our sworn enemy and claim its America thats the bad guy. Shameful Libs indeed...

And its amusing that the name lib is an insult to the libs. And its also amusing how many libs now claim independence from all parties, yet they continue to root for the lowly weak and worthless libs.

I realize that the republicans have faults too, and thats fine. Its the liberal democrats that remain atrocious. Good luck in '08 libs, Lol.

[steven]

Originally posted by buffknut
You also prefer to believe the UN, France, Michael Moore, Kennedy, Kerry, and all the rest of the anti-US crowd, instead of YOUR OWN PRESIDENT OF THE USA.

You want the US to fail. You help play right into the hands of al-jezeera and the like. You are part of the problem.

I'm saddened that Crusader Chris has tired of this forum. He was a voice of reason. There are a few others here who get it, but Steven, you do not.

I too, am tired of the left-wing Democratic rhetoric (despite many of you retreating from being called left wing or liberal - I guess you may be ashamed of that label after all). But I'll stick around if for no other reason than to annoy you all.

Gore lost, Kerry lost, and Democrats are losing seats in Congress & Senate & Governorships (see www.polipundit.com). So more Americans apparently reject your viewpoint than accept it. Maybe it's because they could care less about hurting the feelings of those poor Europeans. Boo-Hoo.

Seemingly the only place where you can go to espouse your BS is on a liberal Democratic forum like this one. Maybe you and the other inmates can organize a "We're Sorry" party. That's about all you're good for.

wow I count 6 paragraphs and the best you can do to refute what I have said is say who cares about europe? Lame Man. I'm glad your on the other side of this argument. 6 paragraphs of nothing.


Originally posted by buffknut
You want the US to fail. You help play right into the hands of al-jezeera and the like. You are part of the problem.

Excuse me? Let me tell you something pal I served 20 yrs in Sams army and was in 4, count them genius, 4 combat zones. CIB recipient with a star son, you got one?

I'm not a democrat or a liberal so spare me your anti liberal speech's. Shows just how small minded you are when you think that anyone that disagrees with you has to be a liberal. The "for me or against me" attitude would have gone over well in Nazi Germany or communist Russia it doesn't play so well in Buffalo does it?

Since you keep trying to turn this thread into liberals vs conservatives let me add a few points to this argument. (I am sure you will blindly ignore them in your attempt to paint me a liberal)

A real conservative would be a lot more fiscally responsible than Bush has been and wouldn't be chugging up the largest deficits in history. A real conservative would have built a consensus with other world leaders like Reagan and Bush's Daddy did before jumping in way over his head. A real conservative would have allowed veterans benefits retroactive to the legislation instead of phasing it in over 10 yrs so many Vietnam and Korea era vets will never see thier full benefits. That's a real conservative, Bush is just a used car salesman that has gotten away with the biggest lie in American history. Reagan had airports named after him, 5 yrs from now the republican party will be trying to dodge any association with GWB

Bush also has the dubious distinction of being the first American president with two dui's. He cant even legally drive a car in his home state. This is our moral compass? Please Spare me your rhetoric until you find some substance to go with it.
There, now you can make another pointless post filled with rhetoric and lacking in facts.
Have at it.
.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
The post immediately above mine is the perfect example of the sort of attitude that's doing serious harm to our nation. Rational discussion of issues and solutions has been replaced by insults, ad hominum attacks, and the neverending quest to portray anyone who doesn't share the same point of view as "them" instead of "us."

I see it every day coming from Liberal Democrats and Conservative Republicans. Posts filled with statements like "you libs" or "you wingnuts" or whatever. It's appalling. We have enough real enemies without people turning on fellow Americans who happen to have a different point of view.

Grow up.

WestSide, you're one of the few voices of reason on this thread, and you are exactly right.

When Bush I was in the White House, Washington gridlock supposedly resulted from a Republican POTUS and a Democratic Congress. During the Clinton years, there was also gridlock in Washington, and pundits blamed that on a Democratic POTUS and a Republican Congress. Well, after 5 years with a Republican POTUS and a Republican Congress, there is still gridlock on important issues like Social Security. Why is that? Because nobody will give an inch for the good of the country. Instead Democratic Congressmen stand their ground, and Republican Congressmen stand theirs, and the POTUS figures it's gotta be his way or the highway. When individual Democrats and Republicans try to come up with compromises to get things done, they're called "traitors" by their fellows. It used to be that bipartisanship and compromise were common occurrences in Washington; now they're both dirty words -- and the country is NOT better off because of it.

[buffknut]

Steven, you should be proud of your service and decorations and I salute you for them. I have none and did no military service. None at all. Not a minute. Now apparently that makes me less an American than you because unfortunately you fought more for yourself than for all Americans regardless of whether they were in the military or not. I really hope that most of our vets see it differently than you do. My Dad saw extensive combat in N. Africa & Europe but you'd never had known it by talking to him. He certainly didn't go around insulting people who did not serve.

You and your other liberal Dem friends (oops, you don't want to be called that) are consistent in that you hate Bush and show it across all your threads. Any dissent from your version of political correctness is seen with disdain. Well, guess what - that is how I view you too. So I'm no better than you. See, we share something in common after all.

The only thing is, GWB is still the Pres for 3+ years more, the Dems continue to lose seats in Congress & the Senate, Europe is still not a model for us to aspire to since their unemployment is significantly higher, and they have a festering immigration problem that makes ours look downright benign (when was the last time you heard of a Hispanic beheading?), the Dems are still losing Governorships and in general, the country seems to be doing just fine under GWB leadership. It's never perfect but it beats the rest of the world. Oh I know you'll dispute all that because you are smarter than I am.

And Avet, so what if I do drive a beemer (nice cars but I have higher priorities for my money)? Is that a crime to you? Does it make one less an American? Should I buy only the car you tell me too?

Funny, when you liberal Dems throw the insults, that's ok. The only thing I continuously call you is liberal Dems. Guess the truth hurts.

[buffknut]

Oh and Linda, please identify the compromises offered by the Dems. Enlighten me.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Linda_D
It used to be that bipartisanship and compromise were common occurrences in Washington; now they're both dirty words

thats nonsense, Linda, you know it is. You're just doing your best to be negative. Its all you got.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by buffknut
He certainly didn't go around insulting people who did not serve.And neither did Steven. He was replying to another poster who questioned his patriotism simply for having a different political ideology.

[avet]

And Avet, so what if I do drive a beemer (nice cars but I have higher priorities for my money)? Is that a crime to you?
I couldn't care any less


Does it make one less an American?
Nope. You fit the mold perfectly.


Should I buy only the car you tell me too?
Should I have to buy only what your saying, cause your saying it?

[steven]

There, now you can make another pointless post filled with rhetoric and lacking in facts.


Originally posted by buffknut
Steven, you should be proud of your service and decorations and I salute you for them. I have none and did no military service. None at all. Not a minute. Now apparently that makes me less an American than you because unfortunately you fought more for yourself than for all Americans regardless of whether they were in the military or not. I really hope that most of our vets see it differently than you do. My Dad saw extensive combat in N. Africa & Europe but you'd never had known it by talking to him. He certainly didn't go around insulting people who did not serve.

You and your other liberal Dem friends (oops, you don't want to be called that) are consistent in that you hate Bush and show it across all your threads. Any dissent from your version of political correctness is seen with disdain. Well, guess what - that is how I view you too. So I'm no better than you. See, we share something in common after all.

The only thing is, GWB is still the Pres for 3+ years more, the Dems continue to lose seats in Congress & the Senate, Europe is still not a model for us to aspire to since their unemployment is significantly higher, and they have a festering immigration problem that makes ours look downright benign (when was the last time you heard of a Hispanic beheading?), the Dems are still losing Governorships and in general, the country seems to be doing just fine under GWB leadership. It's never perfect but it beats the rest of the world. Oh I know you'll dispute all that because you are smarter than I am.

And Avet, so what if I do drive a beemer (nice cars but I have higher priorities for my money)? Is that a crime to you? Does it make one less an American? Should I buy only the car you tell me too?

Funny, when you liberal Dems throw the insults, that's ok. The only thing I continuously call you is liberal Dems. Guess the truth hurts.

Well I called that one didn't I ? No argument, just more rhetoric.

What's wrong guy don't want to address the largest deficit in history while your talking about what a fine job he is doing? Don't want to chat about Bush's DUI's while your so fixated on who Clinton was playing hide the salami with? Not interested in how Bush screwed over disabled veterans? Those aren't as appealing discussions as calling me a liberal are they?

I guess not, at least for people like you..........
:(

[Riven37]

Originally posted by Linda_D
Riven, I think that you may believe opponents to the Iraq war don't support the troops who are fighting it. I think I can speak for all the anti-war posters who have posted on this thread and say that it's not the soldiers who are fighting in Iraq that we have problems with, but rather the people and their wrong-headed policies who put them in harm's way that we criticize.

American soldiers are sent to fight where the POTUS sends them; they don't go on their own. It was GWB and his advisors, all of whom are of an age to have served in Vietnam and all of whom avoided Vietnam or avoided military service completely, who concocted this harebrained scheme. This war wasn't about WMD or terrorists or Iraq being a threat to the US; these were simply convenient excuses to get rid of Saddam Hussein (check out Speaker's links to the New American Century site -- the signees of the 1998 letter to Bill Clinton are the same White House War Mongers who cooked up this war).


You believe that don't you ? Its always the troops who get hurt by protesters and their hairbrain idea to change the Government views during a War. Hey, the Government don't care what you say or don't say. They do care about the outcome which you could never change.

During my time in vietnam all those protesters at home all they did was get more men killed because you people forgot something, we had TV's in Vietnam and watched you guys and your protesting which made us made. Hey are these your firends....


Peter Prontzos
Juergen Dankwort
Jeremy Hinzman


The war in Irqa is about one thing like WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam, was all about OIL...OIL...OIL...OIL !!!! The storiers we know about why these war's happen were the secondary underline story.

[speaker]

No, riv, it's about more than oil, but I agree that a lot of guys died so the US can have OIL.
I draw attention again to this;

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

The republicans were so afraid of Clinton that they spent years searching for anything to finish him off. He did what they couldn't. NO debt. NO deaths.They would have loved it if he bit the bait and started this whole thing in Iraq. Then when the American people got angry they could say look at what these liberals do. It would have been a whole different tune. And then they could have gone on joyously with their agenda there. They figured Clinton, or any democrat, losing the next presidential election on these grounds, would let them slide in without a struggle and allowed them to totally follow their agenda of gaining power and making money. But Clinton didn't bite.
So they had to make it a patriotic thing--go to war with Iraq.
They had to make it a moral thing-go to war with Iraq.
And to win thes last two elections they were willing to do anything.
These men want the world, but have lost it.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by steven




Well I called that one didn't I ? No argument, just more rhetoric.

What's wrong guy don't want to address the largest deficit in history while your talking about what a fine job he is doing? I
:(

thats all you libs got is rhetoric. Anti-American rhetoric is what you hang your hats on. Its all you got. "America is the bad guys" is the lib's slogan.

And regarding our deficit, you should be greatful this country isnt in a depression and a world war, which is what could have easily happened if 911 wasnt handled properly, which it was. The impact that the country's worst attack had on our economy was tremendous, and now we're clearly recovering, we're stronger and we're wiser. No thanks to the libs.

You ungrateful bastards forgot about 911 already, you like to dismiss it because it was handled effectively by the republican administration. Now you kick America because we hold terrorists prisoners.

And you libs wonder why you get zero respect.

[Linda_D]

Riven, the protests against Vietnam and the opposition to the Iraq invasion are two very different beasts. American soldiers were denigrated by many ignorant people for fighting in Vietnam -- in effect, they were blamed. Outside of a handful of individuals, almost all opponents of the Iraq invasion focus their attacks where it belongs: on the politicos that sent the troops there not the troops who are fighting there. To take the cliche from the religious folk, opponents of the Iraq invasion hate the war, not the soldiers.

[Boost Buffalo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by speaker
[B]No, riv, it's about more than oil, but I agree that a lot of guys died so the US can have OIL.
I draw attention again to this;


right, its the republican's fault that Bill Clinton was a weak, worthless, lying whore. what a bunch of crap.

Its our fault that Clinton was impeached and disbarred. Clinton cant even practice law anymore. And its only due to his blatant lack of integrity.

And you say Iraq war is only about oil? Just more liberal rhetoric.

What about the constant threats Saddam made against the free world? What about Saddam's constant foghorn to the terrorist world to band together and defeat America? What about the constant defiance Saddam played against the weak and useless UN? Remember? What about the the hundreds of thousands of gruesome murders Saddam et al perpetrated ?

Saddam proved to the world that tyrants and terrorists can do whatever they damn please. Well, not anymore, can he, no thanks to you libs.

You libs remain disgraceful and ungrateful...

[avet]

WHY...is this happening IF BUSH is SUPPORTING OUR TROOPS ?????
-------------------------------------------------------
The V.A. recently reported a $1 billion deficit in the FY '06 budget.
Sec. Nicholson talks about demands placed on V.A. programs by soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, among other issues.
-------------------------------------------------------

HERE'S YOUR SUPPORT FOR OUR TROOPS,
FROM YOUR "NO BID" COMPANY,
WHO IS "CONNECTED" TO THE ADMINISTRATION,
AND WHO THE ADMINISTRATION, "PROFITS" FROM
WHILE INVESTIGATIONS ARE BEING "BLOCKED"
BY THE SAME ADMINISTRATION

I CAN JUST PICTURE THEM,
SITTING IN VERY FANCY SETTINGS,
IN UTTER, COMFORT,
WAITED ON, HAND AND FOOT,
EATING THE BEST CUISINE MONEY CAN BUY,
COOKED BY THE BEST COOKS,
DISCUSSING, AND SAYING:

......."THOSE BOYS MUST STAY THE COURSE"
_________________________________________

"Mayberry accused Halliburton of serving U.S. troops food that had passed its expiration date or even had been damaged in an insurgent attack."
_________________________________________
WTF !!!!!! Their feeding our troops food with EXPIRED EXPIRATION DATES ?????

Whistleblowers are THREATENED ??

I watched C-Span last night. Halliburton IS WAY, WAY, OUT OF CONTROL, BUT IS IN NO WAY IN DANGER, OF BEING OFFICIALY INVESTIGATED, BY THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION.

THIS IS CONSIDERED ..... " *SUPPORTING OUR TROOPS "
(*supporting their "own" personal incomes)


Lawmakers slam Halliburton on costs

...audits criticizing Halliburton for inflating costs, billing for unnecessary equipment and submitting millions of dollars in duplicate costs on two contracts valued at more than $11 billion.

identified more than $1 billion in "questioned" costs and another $442 million in "unsupported" billings

provided operations and maintenance support at Baghdad International Airport. The government expected the cost of that assignment to be about $1.9 million. Halliburton's estimate was $12.8 million.

Ex-manager accuses
Halliburton also came under fire Monday from Rory Mayberry, a former food production manager for the company at Camp Anaconda in Iraq.

Mayberry accused Halliburton of serving U.S. troops food that had passed its expiration date or even had been damaged in an insurgent attack.

"We were told to go into the trucks and remove the food items and use them after removing the bullets and any shrapnel from the bad food," Mayberry, who is now working in Iraq for another contractor, told the lawmakers in a videotape.

Mayberry also accused Halliburton of shipping workers who dared speak to military auditors off to more dangerous locations.
'Keeping us quiet'
"The threat of being sent to a camp under fire was their way of keeping us quiet," he said.

Pentagon auditors also criticized Halliburton for hiring too many workers. They discovered a $268,000 charge, for instance, for 20 general laborers to clean two tents.

Halliburton also had charged $1.4 million for 146 workers to provide electrical, plumbing and cleaning services but only had 62 personnel on hand, Army auditors said.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by speaker
No, riv, it's about more than oil, but I agree that a lot of guys died so the US can have OIL.
I draw attention again to this;

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

The republicans were so afraid of Clinton that they spent years searching for anything to finish him off. He did what they couldn't. NO debt. NO deaths.They would have loved it if he bit the bait and started this whole thing in Iraq. Then when the American people got angry they could say look at what these liberals do. It would have been a whole different tune. And then they could have gone on joyously with their agenda there. They figured Clinton, or any democrat, losing the next presidential election on these grounds, would let them slide in without a struggle and allowed them to totally follow their agenda of gaining power and making money. But Clinton didn't bite.
So they had to make it a patriotic thing--go to war with Iraq.
They had to make it a moral thing-go to war with Iraq.
And to win thes last two elections they were willing to do anything.
These men want the world, but have lost it.

Speaker, I think your assessment of this group is probably accurate.

For those of you who haven't bothered to check out Speaker's link, here are the signers of the 1/26/1998 letter to Clinton advocating the removal of Saddam Hussein because of the "threat" he posed to the US.

The ones in red are current or former members of George W. Bush's administration. With this bunch as advisors to the POTUS, a US invasion of Iraq was inevitable; 9/11 was simply an excuse.


Elliott Abrams
Richard L. Armitage
William J. Bennett
Jeffrey Bergner
John Bolton
Paula Dobriansky
Francis F_ukuyama
Robert Kagan
Zalmay Khalilzad
William Kristol
Richard Perle
Peter W. Rodman
Donald Rumsfeld
William Schneider, Jr.
Vin Weber
Paul Wolfowitz
R. James Woolsey
Robert B. Zoellick

[WestSideJohn]

I am amazed that Boost Buffalo could quote another poster saying "No, riv, it's about more than oil" and then later in the very same post say "And you say Iraq war is only about oil? Just more liberal rhetoric." So either your reading skills need polishing or you're deliberately misrepresenting what others say to make your point. Which is it, Boost?


You libs remain disgraceful and ungrateful... Oh, never mind. I think I have my answer.

[steven]

Gee Boost
That was funny how you quoted me. You left off this part:

Don't want to chat about Bush's DUI's while your so fixated on who Clinton was playing hide the salami with? Not interested in discussing how Bush screwed over disabled veterans?

thought I would add that back in since you seem to want to ignore it. Care to address those issues?

But thanks for reminding me, I also meant to mention that bush is the first president in more than 70 years to accumulate a net loss of jobs during his first term. The smart money says buy the end of his second term he will have managed to repeat that dubious distinction.

No doubt about it. One of the worst presidents in US history. Terrible economic record and "oooppppsss I started a war by mistake". 50 yrs from now history will look back on your president and laugh at him.

[granpabob]

wow i see far right fighting far left .little to much B.S. for me. if this is any showing of our county's belief's then we are in trouble.
I dont see any compromise on either side. love bush hate clinton love clinton hate bush but no middle ground
the same divide that torn the country apart during Nam. and yes it is the same to the men and women serving now and then, when you are in the war zone and see no support at home it hurts. it makes your freinds death seem shamed at home.
we were even shamed by our own vfw legion and va and i used small letters on purpose for these small minded groups.that claim to be for vets and then shun Vietnam vets because ours wasnt a real war.
I dont want the new vets to feel that lack of backing like we did. and if anyone spits on one of these vets watch out for their angry Vietnem dads and grandads
If you dont like the war let your vote talk. televised protests and anti war rallies are seen by our vets and it hurts. It also brings me some very bad dreams I have fought hard to be rid of. and memories of how we were treated when we returned home.
get of the high horses and find a middle ground that might just solve something.

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
you libs still crying over the election?

Amazed that Kerry was the best you could run...its shameful. Libs will vote for anything liberal. First Gore, then Kerry...amazing. Who's next, Hillary? Good grief.

You folks are downright irresponsible. And How's that ambulance chaser Kerry's prettyboy doing? Talk about a posterchild for the need for legal reform. He's it.

Yeah. People who get butchered by negligent doctors and are crippled for life or killed should get a maximum $250,000.

That's all well and good until it happens to you. And people can be as anti-litigation as they want, but if they get rear-ended, their first call will be 854-2020.

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by buffknut
Steven, you should be proud of your service and decorations and I salute you for them. I have none and did no military service. None at all. Not a minute. Now apparently that makes me less an American than you because unfortunately you fought more for yourself than for all Americans regardless of whether they were in the military or not. I really hope that most of our vets see it differently than you do. My Dad saw extensive combat in N. Africa & Europe but you'd never had known it by talking to him. He certainly didn't go around insulting people who did not serve.

I certainly think that people who have been in combat have a better sense of what war is all about than people who haven't - myself included. I have humility. I don't think I have all the answers to everything.

But don't patronize Steven by "saluting" him one sentence before you rip him a new one.


You and your other liberal Dem friends (oops, you don't want to be called that) are consistent in that you hate Bush and show it across all your threads. Any dissent from your version of political correctness is seen with disdain. Well, guess what - that is how I view you too. So I'm no better than you. See, we share something in common after all.

What freedoms, then, are we fighting for? If we're all supposed to join in lockstep and obey our president, regardless of whether he's right, then what sort of democratic, representative republic do we have? If we can't exercize our right to free speech and to criticize government, then what's the point?

But I do remember back in the 90s how united the country was, and how President Clinton received nary a criticism from the right. Oh, what heady days those were.


The only thing is, GWB is still the Pres for 3+ years more, the Dems continue to lose seats in Congress & the Senate, Europe is still not a model for us to aspire to since their unemployment is significantly higher, and they have a festering immigration problem that makes ours look downright benign (when was the last time you heard of a Hispanic beheading?),

Yeah - Europe. With their free health care, and their vacations on the Mediterranean, and their 2000+ years of Western Civilization. Who needs 'em!


the Dems are still losing Governorships and in general, the country seems to be doing just fine under GWB leadership. It's never perfect but it beats the rest of the world. Oh I know you'll dispute all that because you are smarter than I am.

It takes a special kind of incompetence to invade & occupy an OPEC member but see oil prices skyrocket from $30 - $60/barrel.


And Avet, so what if I do drive a beemer (nice cars but I have higher priorities for my money)? Is that a crime to you? Does it make one less an American? Should I buy only the car you tell me too?

Funny, when you liberal Dems throw the insults, that's ok. The only thing I continuously call you is liberal Dems. Guess the truth hurts.

Well, since you cannot tolerate any criticism of, or dissent regarding, the President, that makes you a fascist. Truth hurts.

[steven]

It takes a special kind of incompetence to invade & occupy an OPEC member but see oil prices skyrocket from $30 - $60/barrel.

Oh man, that one got me laughing so hard I almost fell out of my chair.

Problem here is to many people that pull the lever for a donkey or an elephant. Your either for me or against me and If I am a republican and you disagree with me your a liberal/commie/pinko/*** if your a dem and you disagree with me you a big bussiness/money grubbing/capatalist swine.

I dislike Bush intensly for the reasons I have stated. But truth be told, I could care less about his two DUI's. Whenever the far siders bring up clintons cheating ways its a good way to shut them up and watch them cringe. Kinda hard to spout morals when your guy is a convicted drunk. I always save up the two times his daughters where picked up for drinking underage with fake ID (it runs in the family maybe?) and the gay daughter of the VP for the real hard core far siders. Again, these are issues I could care less about but if your going to play the morals/character card turn about is fair play.

[WestSideJohn]

That's an excellent point, Steven. Holier than thou only works if you're actually holier. Otherwise you just come of looking like a... well, insert a word my mother would be shocked to find out I know.

[Boost Buffalo]

Bush's drinking? thats all you got...

the fact is the President gave up drinking years ago and made something out of his life, and then became president. But you know that, and all you can do is see negative, because its all you got to work with.

Republicans love a good success story and libs love a failure. Nobody more pessimistic than our libs.

Sadly, ex-president Bill Clinton continues to make news with his continued cheating on his wife...real nice.

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
Bush's drinking? thats all you got...

the fact is the President gave up drinking years ago and made something out of his life, and then became president. But you know that, and all you can do is see negative, because its all you got to work with.

Republicans love a good success story and libs love a failure. Nobody more pessimistic than our libs.

Sadly, ex-president Bill Clinton continues to make news with his continued cheating on his wife...real nice.

Does Clinton cheating amount to a success story in your non-lib mind?

[steven]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
Republicans love a good success story and libs love a failure. Nobody more pessimistic than our libs.


So having two dui's and being the first president to reside over a net job loss in 70 years coupled with the largest deficit in history is your idea of a success story????????? *sheesh* what's it take before you call it a disaster, a meteor hitting the earth???

[speaker]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
Bush's drinking? thats all you got...

.

Well, no...we've actually got a lot more than Bush's drinking.
I'm saying that the war in Iraq was thought up and planned a long time ago--since before 1998, anyway. The death and destruction were considered unimportant.
They thought they could kill two birds with one stone--first, Bill Clinton, who was not going to run again but Gore was a threat. And then getting control of all the oil fields in the world, including Alaska. Haliburton is positioned to do this.
When plan A didn't pan out, it was just a matter of waiting for the opportune time. When Blair reported there were WMD in Iraq (that is, if it happened that way) those were the magic words. Even though it was decided that there were NO WMD there, they had to act. They weren't sure that Bush would be reelected.
And the moral right balanced tens of thousands of American casualties on one side with stem cell research, theory of evolution and abortion on the other, and voted the hyenas in.

[heresthesun]

A voice of reason! I noticed not anyone responded to your post though. When I was a young girl and watching TV I saw Viet Nam Vets get off a plane coming home, there were protesters spitting at them and throwing food at them and calling them dispicable names. I was horrified. I knew at an age where girls are more interested in boys and makeup that this was just WRONG!
I could be wrong but I wonder if the anti war movement for a lot of people is to just recapture their youth.
If you're against the war and we are already in Iraq, why is mostly everyone in this forum beating to death "the war is wrong and I'm against it" opinion. How about solutions and looking at what good has come about. If you think that we should pull out now and asap, is that the right thing to do? Think about it. If you keep circling back to the point that "we invaded Irag" "We shouldn't be there", we get nowhere! What should we do now and is that reasonable? I much prefer well thought out opinions rather than the talking points either side presents.


Originally posted by granpabob
wow i see far right fighting far left .little to much B.S. for me. if this is any showing of our county's belief's then we are in trouble.
I dont see any compromise on either side. love bush hate clinton love clinton hate bush but no middle ground
the same divide that torn the country apart during Nam. and yes it is the same to the men and women serving now and then, when you are in the war zone and see no support at home it hurts. it makes your freinds death seem shamed at home.
we were even shamed by our own vfw legion and va and i used small letters on purpose for these small minded groups.that claim to be for vets and then shun Vietnam vets because ours wasnt a real war.
I dont want the new vets to feel that lack of backing like we did. and if anyone spits on one of these vets watch out for their angry Vietnem dads and grandads
If you dont like the war let your vote talk. televised protests and anti war rallies are seen by our vets and it hurts. It also brings me some very bad dreams I have fought hard to be rid of. and memories of how we were treated when we returned home.
get of the high horses and find a middle ground that might just solve something.

[WestSideJohn]

Sun, I both agree and disagree.

I agree that at this point we need to work on solving the Iraq problem rather that getting stuck on "we shouldn't be there in the first place." We're there. Let's fix the problem and get the hell out.

The reason I disagree is that by simply moving on we fail to hold those responsible for this mess accountable, which practically guarantees it will happen again. I don't want to be posting online in 10 or 20 or 30 years about that new war we just started based on false intelligence.

I also have an issue with the people who supported the invasion and now want us to withdraw (and based on poll numbers, that's quite a few people from both parties). If our mission in Iraq was important enough then to start, it's important enough now to finish. On the other hand if it's not important enough now to finish, it was never important enough then to start.

[buffalojoe]

First things first. Ever since man kind started there has been war. People fighting for greed and the rest fighting for survival. Is it right to fight for greed NO. I really don't feel like this war was for greed. I believe it was in reponce to the 100 thousand iragies killed after the pull out of the first war.(gassed) Now if you can stand by and let any reshime just murder women children and men. Then you have every right to protest. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I just sat there and watched someone get killed by thugs wether its in iraq or the U.S

Linda D. when I was in the service we had many of non-citizens fight for the US forces. Because the united states does so much for there countries they like to return the favor.some do it for a job.Others do it because they feel like they belong to the winng team..what ever the reason I say thank you to them.

My friend that said something across the pond. England is like the land of transits. There are more arabs in england in most countires then there are natives. Belgium has shut there borders. The other side of the pond became so liberal that they lost control' They are losing there own identity.

My friend from yugosalvia, Yes you had it tough under comminism. Yes we are spoiled. Yes we did see what was going on in your country. watching kids getting blown up. Yes we did have to be imbarressed before we got involved. If I where in charge at the time We would of been involved earlier. That was under President Clinton.. (Who I believe should be the president of the UN.)
I do agree our politicans can over sell something to much. But I for one watched the special about Iraq post war or the first conflict. Thats why I feel so strong about this one. After where done in this area we will go to africa and straighten out that mess.

If we don't fix all these problems those people will do what you would do to protect your family.They will run to safer ground the U.S. So to my friend who said his freedom hasn't been attacked. To you I say your ethier very selfish or you really didn't mean to make such a dum comment. These people will flood our country.

Hey all have a happy fourth of july. To all my fellow servicemen democrate and republican I salute you all.

[Riven37]

Originally posted by Linda_D
Riven, the protests against Vietnam and the opposition to the Iraq invasion are two very different beasts. American soldiers were denigrated by many ignorant people for fighting in Vietnam -- in effect, they were blamed. Outside of a handful of individuals, almost all opponents of the Iraq invasion focus their attacks where it belongs: on the politicos that sent the troops there not the troops who are fighting there. To take the cliche from the religious folk, opponents of the Iraq invasion hate the war, not the soldiers.


WHO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK SENT ME AND MANY TO VIETNAM ITS WAS THE POLITICOS AS YOU PUT IT...WHAT ARE YOU DUMB ?? yOU PEOPLE PISS ME OFF YOU HAVE NO GLUE TO WHAT'S NEED ALL YOU CAN DO IS CRY ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE HAPPEN. AFTER 9/11 THIS us WANTED BLOOD AND THEY DIDN'T CARE WHO'S BLOOD NOW, THAT BLOOD IS FLOWING YOU DON'T WANT IT ANY MORE...YOU BUCH OF CHICKEN **** PEOPLE..YOU FRATHER SEE THOSE BOYS IN IRAQ DIE KNOWING THEY HAD NO AMERICAN SUPPORT JUST LIKE I FELT IN THE NAM..YOU CHICKEN **** PEOPLE YEAH I'M PISST OFF VERY MUCH SO YOU PUSHED ON MY PTSD AND ALL MAY ANGER INSIDE...YOU CHICKEN CRAP PEOPLE DO THE RIGHT THING STOP FIGHTING OVER BUSH AND START SUPPORTING THOSE TROOPS...I TELL YOU KNOW AFTER IRAQ YOU WILL HAVE A NEW BUNCH OF YOUNG BOYS HAFE NUTS WHEN THEY COME HOME AND YOU PEOPLE WILL BE THE FIRST TO CRY HELP THEM, OH HELP THEM....AND STOP COMPARING MY WAR TO IRAQ...DIFFERNT TYPE OF WAR AND DIFFERENT REASON....MOST OF YOU PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE REASON WHY VIETNAM HAPPEN ONLY WHAT THEY WANTED YOU TO KNOW ABOUT....STOP SAYING IRAQ IS LIKE VIETNAM THAT IS PISSING ME OFF AND HEATS UP MY PTSD TO THE POINT I WANT TO LOCK AND LOAD ON PEOPLE WHO DON'T EVEN HAVE A BACKBONE ENOUGH TO GO FIGHT..WHEN YOU DO THAT THEN, YOU CAN SPEAK OUT OTHERWISE STOP..YOU'RE NOT EVEN GOOD AT BEING AN ARM CHAIR PERSIDENT.

YES I'M PISST OFF....

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Riven37
WHO IN THE HELL DO YOU THINK SENT ME AND MANY TO VIETNAM ITS WAS THE POLITICOS AS YOU PUT IT...WHAT ARE YOU DUMB ?? yOU PEOPLE PISS ME OFF YOU HAVE NO GLUE TO WHAT'S NEED ALL YOU CAN DO IS CRY ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE HAPPEN. AFTER 9/11 THIS us WANTED BLOOD AND THEY DIDN'T CARE WHO'S BLOOD NOW, THAT BLOOD IS FLOWING YOU DON'T WANT IT ANY MORE...YOU BUCH OF CHICKEN **** PEOPLE..YOU FRATHER SEE THOSE BOYS IN IRAQ DIE KNOWING THEY HAD NO AMERICAN SUPPORT JUST LIKE I FELT IN THE NAM..YOU CHICKEN **** PEOPLE YEAH I'M PISST OFF VERY MUCH SO YOU PUSHED ON MY PTSD AND ALL MAY ANGER INSIDE...YOU CHICKEN CRAP PEOPLE DO THE RIGHT THING STOP FIGHTING OVER BUSH AND START SUPPORTING THOSE TROOPS...I TELL YOU KNOW AFTER IRAQ YOU WILL HAVE A NEW BUNCH OF YOUNG BOYS HAFE NUTS WHEN THEY COME HOME AND YOU PEOPLE WILL BE THE FIRST TO CRY HELP THEM, OH HELP THEM....AND STOP COMPARING MY WAR TO IRAQ...DIFFERNT TYPE OF WAR AND DIFFERENT REASON....MOST OF YOU PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE REASON WHY VIETNAM HAPPEN ONLY WHAT THEY WANTED YOU TO KNOW ABOUT....STOP SAYING IRAQ IS LIKE VIETNAM THAT IS PISSING ME OFF AND HEATS UP MY PTSD TO THE POINT I WANT TO LOCK AND LOAD ON PEOPLE WHO DON'T EVEN HAVE A BACKBONE ENOUGH TO GO FIGHT..WHEN YOU DO THAT THEN, YOU CAN SPEAK OUT OTHERWISE STOP..YOU'RE NOT EVEN GOOD AT BEING AN ARM CHAIR PERSIDENT.

YES I'M PISST OFF....

Riven, don't yell at me!!! I NEVER supported the Iraq war. NEVER, EVER, and it wasn't because I doubted that Saddam Hussein had WMD or that I'm a pacifist (I supported US action in Afghanistan). Iraq was NEVER a threat to the US because it was never a hotbed of terrorism (unlike Saudi Arabia), and it couldn't deliver WMDs (that it turned out not to have) via missle further than about 100 miles. Removing Saddam Hussein took resources away from the pacification of Afghanistan and it put the hunt for Osama bin Laden (hey, remember him?) on the "back-burner".
It would mean the long-term occupation of Iraq, and well, we've all seen the results of that!

If US soldiers are going to fight a war, they ought to fight for something more worthwhile than the POTUS' ego or corporate profits.

[granpabob]

linda I hope you plan on going to the VA hospital and explaining to all the half insane vets why you made them feel hated. why you made their best freinds death seem to be a waste . go right on protesting the war just dont forget what it does to our men.

as for haliburton sure they over charge they have to pay ten times the normal pay scale just to get men to go to a ar zone, and they have to carry hugh insurence policies on those men.plus they often lose all their equipment to war, just how many companies do you think there are who will take this work and have experience doing it, all the other companies were totally foreign and not willing to cooperate with our military.
sure they charge allot and maybe chaney"s freinds run it but there realy aren't many other options. you dont just hire Joe Pickup truck to do this work. I doubt their are more the four or five companies in the world who could and would do this work

If we do leave now without finishing the job what message will it send to our military

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by granpabob
linda I hope you plan on going to the VA hospital and explaining to all the half insane vets why you made them feel hated. why you made their best freinds death seem to be a waste . go right on protesting the war just dont forget what it does to our men.

as for haliburton sure they over charge they have to pay ten times the normal pay scale just to get men to go to a ar zone, and they have to carry hugh insurence policies on those men.plus they often lose all their equipment to war, just how many companies do you think there are who will take this work and have experience doing it, all the other companies were totally foreign and not willing to cooperate with our military.
sure they charge allot and maybe chaney"s freinds run it but there realy aren't many other options. you dont just hire Joe Pickup truck to do this work. I doubt their are more the four or five companies in the world who could and would do this work

If we do leave now without finishing the job what message will it send to our military

what the hell are you talking about?

and ill take my chances with an almost postal riven here.....

I understand the need to support our troops, to thank them for their service, to make sure they feel appreciated, to give them the care that they need when they come home....

so why on earth would ANYONE be pissed off about protesting the war? protesting the war IS NOT THE SAME AS PROTESTING THE SOLDIERS! I'd rather see all of our troops get on planes and come home. No more deaths, no more injuries. Let the iraqi's kill themselves. Who cares? Why should my friends die to give those morons democracy?

[Boost Buffalo]

Halliburton has no peers, no other company has the capabity and success rate of Halliburton.

If I'm not mistaken and check this if you will, Halliburton has serviced every single war and military conflict at least since and including WW2 where America was involved. They have been hired by every one of our presidents including no-bid contracts, both democrat and republican, barring none, since the same time.

Halliburton is also a huge player in our space program and are credited with the rescue of the manned Apollo 13 among numerous other things, if I recall correctly.

Halliburton is a great American Corporation with a great American success story. Thats why the libs dont like it, because Halliburton is successful, they're American and they're a corporation, the things libs detest most.

Also, as a shareholder, I absolutely love the company for the ROI.

[speaker]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
Halliburton has no peers, no other company has the capabity and success rate of Halliburton.

If I'm not mistaken and check this if you will, Halliburton has serviced every single war and military conflict at least since and including WW2 where America was involved. They have been hired by every one of our presidents including no-bid contracts, both democrat and republican, barring none, since the same time.

Halliburton is also a huge player in our space program and are credited with the rescue of the manned Apollo 13 among numerous other things, if I recall correctly.

Halliburton is a great American Corporation with a great American success story. Thats why the libs dont like it, because Halliburton is successful, they're American and they're a corporation, the things libs detest most.

Also, as a shareholder, I absolutely love the company for the ROI.


Yes , please do google halliburton

[avet]

Are you one of them, how do you say? ....flip-flopers ??


____________________________________

Originally posted by biker June 21st, 2005 10:54 AM
Competition in any service yields a better price. Proven again and again. If the bidding process is rigged (often the case in the public sector, where favoring your friends is rampant), it will not yield the best outcome.
___________________________________
Boost Buffalo
I'm agreeing with the biker 100% on this front.
____________________________________


---SAME PERSON -- DIFFERENT DAY -------

_____________________________________
Originally posted by Boost Buffalo June 29th, 2005 09:59 AM

Halliburton is a great American Corporation with a great American success story. Thats why the libs dont like it, because Halliburton is successful, they're American and they're a corporation, the things libs detest most.

Also, as a shareholder, I absolutely love the company for the ROI.
____________________________________



Halliburton, the company formerly headed by Vice President Cheney, has won contracts worth more than $1.7 billion under Operation Iraqi Freedom and stands to make hundreds of millions more dollars under a "NO-BID" contract awarded by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, according to newly available documents.

Even before the first shots were fired in Iraq, the Pentagon had secretly awarded Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root a two-year, "NO-BID" contract to put out oil well fires and to handle other unspecified duties involving war damage to the country’s petroleum industry. It is worth up to $7 billion.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by avet
Are you one of them, how do you say? ....flip-flopers ??


____________________________________



I dont understand your post...flip flopper?

And regarding Hallibuton's profits, hundreds of $millions in profits on multi billion dollar contracts arent out of line for such high risk contracts. A 10% markup on a $7billion contract is $700 million. 10% is probably a rather high estimate at that, and 10% isnt out of line for any deal, public or private.

You libs hate success storys because they're not yours. You prefer to see losers who require section 8 programs...why I dont know.

In addition, no bid contracts are common practice in purely private industry. Negotiated deals are often preferable to an open bidding process for numerous reasons, in private industry.

Also, Halliburton is often the only company capable of performing such high risk, high cost, high delivery contracts.

So whats the problem?

[avet]

Originally posted by biker June 21st, 2005 10:54 AM
Competition in any service yields a better price. Proven again and again. If the bidding process is rigged (often the case in the public sector, where favoring your friends is rampant), it will not yield the best outcome.
___________________________________
___________________________________
Boost Buffalo
I'm agreeing with the biker 100% on this front.
____________________________________


"no bid contracts are common practice in purely private industry"



I dont understand your post...flip flopper?

Are you serious ?

[granpabob]

protesting the war is protesting the soldiers they are trying their best to help iraq and you are saying stop wasting your time its not worth it . dont help that kid dont help the girls get educated its not worth it just come home and let them all die.
our people are there because they beleive in the job or they would not have joined now you are saying its all wrong you shouldn't be there those people should save their selves. all the good they are doing is over looked and any misstake is put on the front page .
I know how it felt to be told my fighting was a waste of time. I know the pain from hearing how terrible I was to be involved in a war so far from home. while I helped a starving kid the radio told me I was evil. yah that sure is just protesting the war and not the men.
any off you ever been spit at by a WWII veteran I have . have you been forced to leave a vfw meeting because you didn't serve in a "REAL WAR" I did. are these new vets going to get the same thing are they evil because they belief their country, and what it is doing NO stop telling the world that they are wasting their time fighting a war they beleive in

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by avet


Are you serious ?

yes, very serious.

No bid contracts dont necessarily mean no competition, it simply means the contract is not put out to open bid. Often specific companies are selected and invited to negotiate a deal, rather than respond to a bid package.

In the case of Hallibuton and public contracts, No-bid deals are the result of only one viable company able to perform such a task.
As was the case with Hallibuton and the Saddam-torched oil fields.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by granpabob
protesting the war is protesting the soldiers they are trying their best to help iraq and you are saying stop wasting your time its not worth it . dont help that kid dont help the girls get educated its not worth it just come home and let them all die.
our people are there because they beleive in the job or they would not have joined now you are saying its all wrong you shouldn't be there those people should save their selves. all the good they are doing is over looked and any misstake is put on the front page .
I know how it felt to be told my fighting was a waste of time. I know the pain from hearing how terrible I was to be involved in a war so far from home. while I helped a starving kid the radio told me I was evil. yah that sure is just protesting the war and not the men.
any off you ever been spit at by a WWII veteran I have . have you been forced to leave a vfw meeting because you didn't serve in a "REAL WAR" I did. are these new vets going to get the same thing are they evil because they belief their country, and what it is doing NO stop telling the world that they are wasting their time fighting a war they beleive in

wow...that's twisted..

Instead of realizing that war protesters value our soldiers so much that we would rather see them come home and NOT DIE, you would rather have more of them die in a bull**** war so the rest can get credit for it?

THAT is the most asinine thing I have ever read.

And as for your fellow soldiers spitting on you and not allowing you into VFW meetings, well those are SOLDIERS doing that, not war protesters.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by granpabob
protesting the war is protesting the soldiers they are trying their best to help iraq and you are saying stop wasting your time its not worth it . dont help that kid dont help the girls get educated its not worth it just come home and let them all die.
our people are there because they beleive in the job or they would not have joined now you are saying its all wrong you shouldn't be there those people should save their selves. all the good they are doing is over looked and any misstake is put on the front page .
I know how it felt to be told my fighting was a waste of time. I know the pain from hearing how terrible I was to be involved in a war so far from home. while I helped a starving kid the radio told me I was evil. yah that sure is just protesting the war and not the men.
any off you ever been spit at by a WWII veteran I have . have you been forced to leave a vfw meeting because you didn't serve in a "REAL WAR" I did. are these new vets going to get the same thing are they evil because they belief their country, and what it is doing NO stop telling the world that they are wasting their time fighting a war they beleive in

Thats right grandpa.

And our sworn enenmy loves these phony-based liberals protesting our country. It gives them needed support to move agressively against us, resulting in more harm to our fighting men and women. Making the war far more difficult than need be.

[Boost Buffalo]

Libs, why wouldnt John Kerry allow the reprint of his 1972 book "The New Soldier"?

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by granpabob
linda I hope you plan on going to the VA hospital and explaining to all the half insane vets why you made them feel hated. why you made their best freinds death seem to be a waste . go right on protesting the war just dont forget what it does to our men.

as for haliburton sure they over charge they have to pay ten times the normal pay scale just to get men to go to a ar zone, and they have to carry hugh insurence policies on those men.plus they often lose all their equipment to war, just how many companies do you think there are who will take this work and have experience doing it, all the other companies were totally foreign and not willing to cooperate with our military.
sure they charge allot and maybe chaney"s freinds run it but there realy aren't many other options. you dont just hire Joe Pickup truck to do this work. I doubt their are more the four or five companies in the world who could and would do this work

If we do leave now without finishing the job what message will it send to our military

How long do you think the US ought to stay in Iraq, grandpa, in the name of "supporting our troops"? Six years? Twelve? If you don't ever define "the job", it NEVER gets done, grandpa, and that's where Bush is.

How many more men and women have to suffer terrible injuries, psychological damage or death before the POTUS and his advisors come up with some way of extricating the US from the mess they made? Not only did the White House War Mongers embark on an "preemptive strike" without a planning beyond "mission accomplished" photo-ops, they still don't have an exit plan, just "stay the course", two years after the end of "major combat".

What message does it send our military to send them to fight an endless war for no good reason????

[avet]

resulting in more harm to our fighting men and women

Like your company your profiting from feeding our troops food with expired expiration dates??

You think about that the next time you open your check !!!!!

YOU are the one "profiting" from their suffering !!!!!!!

I served. Don't even give me any bs I'm hurting the troops !!

I care about them more than you ever can - sitting here, collecting your dividends - SIR !!

[speaker]

[i]Originally posted by granpabob have you been forced to leave a vfw meeting because you didn't serve in a "REAL WAR" I did. are these new vets going to get the same thing are they evil because they belief their country, and what it is doing NO stop telling the world that they are wasting their time fighting a war they beleive in [/B]

grandpa--anybody who ever asked you to leave for that reason is wrong, wrong, wrong and stupid besides.
The wars from ww1 and ww2 were absolutely different types of wars, not just for the reasons for them but the tecniques, and I agree, the vets from the two world wars were treated as heroes and glorified. Korea, Vietnam, maybe the Gulf and now the Iraqui wars are dirty and mean and confusing, not that the others weren't, but these were wars completely strange to us, but mostly to you men who fought them, and died in them. It's not you, our guys, we hate, but these wars that made you go out there where we couldn't go. I know you're defending us. And when I meet a vet I have such a feeling of awe in my heart, because he has laid down his life for us.

[avet]

Libs, why wouldnt John Kerry allow the reprint of his 1972 book "The New Soldier"?
WHY DON'T G.W.B. "EVEN WRITE A BOOK" ABOUT HIS EXPLOITS ??

OH! THAT'S RIGHT !!!

HIS EXPLOITS ARE CONSIDERED

"TOP SECRET" - "NAT'L SECURITY" & OUT OF THE PUBLICS VIEW

[buffalopundit]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
Libs, why wouldnt John Kerry allow the reprint of his 1972 book "The New Soldier"?

Probably the same reason Lynne Cheney won't allow a reprint of her 1981 masterpiece "Sisters" (http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art19337.asp).

[avet]

granpabob

I was drafted. I served. I KNEW Nam was totally "wrong". I did NOT want to go, but I did what they wanted me too. I "appreciated" the protestors and all they did to STOP the idiotic, stupid, waste of so many good lives. I KNOW what your saying, when you talk about comming home. It was not a very joyous occasion. I actually was embarressed with my short haircut, and couldn't wait to grow it all back, so I did not stick out.

The "killings" - that just seemed to go on, and on, and on, and on.

FOR WHAT ???

HOW MANY MORE WOULD HAVE DIED NEEDLESSLY IF THE WAR HAD CONTINUED ?

Did you honestly, really, support the people who were "supporting the war", when you were there ?

As I do now, and you are doing, I have NOTHING, but "NOTHING", but the UTMOST deep respect, and compassion for "anybody" in uniform who is serving. I seriously. actually WEEP everytime I hear another local soldier was killed.

I DON'T CARE how much these people back home, who NEVER served, who are gaining profits from this war, sporting stickers on their Beemers, cashing their dividend checks at the bank, say they are "supporting the troops", and their WAR, to me, ...IT'S UTTER B.$. !!!!

You above anybody else, should know, as I'm sure you do, it was all about our "brothers\sisters" that ever mattered, that will cover your back, with their lives if necessary, just as you would have covered theirs, NOT their bs, lying, agenda's that matter. I HATED every moment of that war with a huge passion, but I miss the brothers\friends that I made as much as my own parents. Those people will "never die", in my mind.

To "them", the "WALL" is a $$$$ attraction. To us, I believe I can speak for us both, it means all the good people that will NEVER, EVER, HAVE the chance, to be ...."all they could have been".

---IT WAS ALL FOR WHAT ?----

granpabob,
I love ya brother - please believe me, I am doing it cause I really do weep for them, and I REALLY DO CARE.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by buffalopundit
Probably the same reason Lynne Cheney won't allow a reprint of her 1981 masterpiece "Sisters" (http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art19337.asp).

thats quite a reach. When Lynn Cheney is a presidential contender, we'll scrutinize her over a novel she wrote.

But getting back to Kerry's book "The New Soldier" which wasnt written as a novel, why do you suppose he wouldnt allow the reprint?

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by avet


granpabob,
I love ya brother - please believe me, I am doing it cause I really do weep for them, and I REALLY DO CARE.

how does scorning America and comforting the enemy help our soldiers? Sensible people believe it has the opposite effect.

[Boost Buffalo]

General George Washington would have today's liberals swinging from cherry trees.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
how does scorning America and comforting the enemy help our soldiers?Avet served our country in Vietnam. His patriotism has been proven <i>more</i> than satisfactorily. Shame on you.

[avet]

how does scorning America and comforting the enemy help our soldiers?
You don't read too well - DO YOU ??

[granpabob]

i have never seen the wall even the traveling wall was too hard too face years ago I burned all my photos as they brought back the dreams .Might have been differant if I could shoot back with more then a 35 mm nikon .only shots I took for real were from a few hundred feet in a helo when the gunner was left behind rest of the time my orders were to use my camera. and hearing my cheif say that they"re are no cowards in front of a camera. which by the way is BS.
I will continue to support my president and my troops until heads much smarter then me say its time to pull out. for now I have to with draw from this talk befor my wife sees that I have mentioned war again I promised her I would not after my last set back

[steven]

Originally posted by avet
You don't read too well - DO YOU ??

He does read Well it just doesnt matter to him

Boost got his debating skills from the rush limbaugh institute of "If I cant have a good argument I'll change the subject, or call you a liberal/dem/commie/pinko/f@g. This class is taught at the "be a good nazi and dont question your government" university.


Ask him how he can say a president that was the first president to reside over a net job loss in 70 years coupled with the largest deficit in history is a good president and he starts to chat about books and Kerry.

Bet you 10 bucks he cant make 5 post in this thread without reverting back to form.

[avet]

I will continue to support my president and my troops until heads much smarter then me say its time to pull out. for now I have to with draw from this talk befor my wife sees that I have mentioned war again I promised her I would not after my last set back

I hear ya. I hope smarter heads will "begin" to prevail too.

Your voice will be missed here, even though you earned it, "the hard way", but I understand.

I just feel too compelled to do what they did for me back then. Otherwise, I too, could have been a part of the WALL.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by avet
I hear ya. I hope smarter heads will "begin" to prevail too.

Your voice will be missed here, even though you earned it, "the hard way", but I understand.

I just feel too compelled to do what they did for me back then. Otherwise, I too, could have been a part of the WALL.

I wasn't even born yet, so I'd love a little history lesson here....

When people protested 'nam, were they protesting the fact that people were killing yellow people, or were they protesting the fact that we were there?

[avet]

Both.

Ever see Mel Gibson's "We Were Soldiers"?

Ever see people killed\mangled "live" - "in person". Don't matter what color it is - everybodies blood is RED.

I could not watch the whole thing. I wept like I haven't in a long time.

For "Self-defense", I'd kill in a heartbeat.

What was that "exact date" that Iraq attacked us?

I seemed to have forgotten.

Osama Bin Ladin attacked us on 9/11.

When did we catch him? I forgot that too.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
Shame on you.

shame on me for not subscribing to your anti-American crap? up yours

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
shame on me for not subscribing to your anti-American crap? up yours No. Shame on you for questioning the patriotism of <i>anyone</i> on this board, let alone a combat veteran.

[avet]

Well WestSideJohn,

I'm afraid Boost Buffalo has finally got us!

His point is just so ..."to the point", and undenyably thought out with great "knowledge" and "forethought".
_______________________

up yours

_______________________

I just don't think I have ANY good answers to that pure "cut to the bone", well thought out, quip.

I'm totally "speechless" !!!!!

[WestSideJohn]

Originally Posted by Boost Buffalo
up yours!Not unless you buy me dinner.

How's that, Avet?

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
Not unless you buy me dinner.

How's that, Avet?

Is that all it takes?

[avet]

Not unless you buy me dinner.

I happen to know this "great" new "BurgerKing" ?


Boost Buffalo
Whew! I'm "still" reeling from that awfull good comeback of yours.

By the way, just for my own "curiosity", can you tell us just how much you make in dividends a month?

Do you happen to say a quiet prayer for our troops and "thank them" everytime you deposit that money in your account?


Ever taste food that was "beyond" the expiration date? It generally makes you sick. That's why they put expiration dates on them (in case you didn't know).

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
Is that all it takes? Depends on the guy. And the restaurant.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
No. Shame on you for questioning the patriotism of <i>anyone</i> on this board, let alone a combat veteran.

I never did that.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
I never did that. No? Avet - a combat veteran - had posted:


granpabob, I love ya brother - please believe me, I am doing it cause I really do weep for them, and I REALLY DO CARE.At 1:27 p.m. today you quoted the above and replied:


How does scorning America and comforting the enemy help our soldiers?Avet and Granpabob and any other veterans posting on this board have <i>more</i> than proven their love of country through service in combat. Their patriotism is above reproach.

[speaker]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
.

And our sworn enenmy loves these phony-based liberals protesting our country. It gives them needed support to move agressively against us, resulting in more harm to our fighting men and women. Making the war far more difficult than need be.

Is that you can do is generalize and insult? A few of you posters get like this when you have nothing to say.
The harm to our fighting men is there. It doesn't need support. They will fight as long and as hard as they can because they don't care if they die-dying is just moving on to a better place to them.

[speaker]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
how does scorning America and comforting the enemy help our soldiers? Sensible people believe it has the opposite effect.

Who on this board scorns America and comforts the enemy? O thee twister of words?
Quote a post for me that says this. You should really be ashamed of yourself, boost, but let me put it this way--you're in with a lot of people who twist just like you.

[speaker]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
General George Washington would have today's liberals swinging from cherry trees.

Wrong--that isn't the democratic credo--noone in the history of the US has ever been penalizrd for saying he doesn't or didn't like the president.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by speaker
Wrong--that isn't the democratic credo--noone in the history of the US has ever been penalizrd for saying he doesn't or didn't like the president.

I never said that either.

But you liberals are funny characters. You prove it over and over again.

[WestSideJohn]

Unlike Boost, I don't presume to speak for someone who has been dead for two centuries. But it strikes me that a man who served as General in the American <b>Revolution</b> would probably not have issues with the free expression of opinions critical of a ruler named George.

[steven]

Bet you 10 bucks he cant make 5 post in this thread without reverting back to form.


Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
But you liberals are funny characters. You prove it over and over again.

Haha Good thing you didnt bet me. 2 posts later and he is calling someone a liberal again.

:D

[therising]

Most intelligent post of this thread:


Originally posted by ERIEMAN
wow...that's twisted..

Instead of realizing that war protesters value our soldiers so much that we would rather see them come home and NOT DIE, you would rather have more of them die in a bull**** war so the rest can get credit for it?

THAT is the most asinine thing I have ever read.

And as for your fellow soldiers spitting on you and not allowing you into VFW meetings, well those are SOLDIERS doing that, not war protesters.

Of course, no one responded to it.

Go ahead, Boost - call me a liberal. (Can you ever make a post without bringing up the liberal generalization thing???)

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
shame on me for not subscribing to your anti-American crap? up yours

This is the best you can do???

ROFLMAO!!!

Now I know why you support GWB. Both of you are long on cliches and short on substance.

[LaNdReW]

All this hubub from a cut and paste from the web somewhere....

Buffpundit, Good job fighting back with thought and facts...and without too much namecalling. Don't let em drag you down to the name calling level.

Boost, you need to get some new lines....I think you need to use the current Rush "Name d'jour", OBSTRUCTIONIST. Bring out facts to fight back, don't name call. Just because someone does not agree with GW, does not mean they supported Clinton or they are liberal.

Boost, do you realize how foolish you sound when you say things like "bush haters" or call people "unamerican"? You and other dittos DEFINE unbridled hatred for presidents with Clinton.

[Chancellor Qu'noH]

Wow Did this post degrade..... We I guess you have to expect it when you get two camps with such passion for they're opinions.

I figure everyone is allowed they're opinion or what I was fighting for was just a sham.

I am a vet, I didn't always agree on what we were fighting for or about, but I did my "JOB" to the best of my ability. Figured it was the best way to insure I would get home alive.

To all the Vets out there.... Thanks for a job well done you all have my absolute respect and deserve a life of peace and honor.

[therising]

Originally posted by Chancellor Qu'noH
I figure everyone is allowed they're opinion or what I was fighting for was just a sham.


This quote reminds me of another issue.
Chancellor, what do you think about flag-burning?
Needless to say, you're not FOR flag-burning, but don't you think an ammnedment making it illegal would also make a mockery of the freedom for which you were fighting?

I'm curious to hear the opinion of a reasonable vet.

[WestSideJohn]

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I do want to say this:

I love the flag, not for what it is, but for what it represents. I wish we were as worried about the damage to our country as we are about the damage to a piece of fabric.

[Chancellor Qu'noH]

Flag burning .... Really doesn't bother me. When a flag reaches it "retirement stage" they burn them anyway. As for someone burning it in protest.... well that under the constitution is they're right.

I am not for a amendment for that. If you go to that point then what is to stop them from taking it off my jacket or the ones you see in cars windows or anywhere they? deem inappropriate.

But the point you wish to hear is that I don't agree to it because it is {and I believe this} they're Right to do so to make a point. Most need to remember that we salute the Flag as a figure head. You honor what the flag means to you not what others want you to think it means. Same as saluting a senior officer. You salute the rank.......not the person under it.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by LaNdReW
All this hubub from a cut and paste from the web somewhere....

Buffpundit, Good job fighting back with thought and facts...and without too much namecalling. Don't let em drag you down to the name calling level.



so you liked his crack about Lynn Cheney's novel? or was it the one about President Clinton's cheating meant nothing? Which one of Pundit's profound comments did you like, or was it both of them? You call that fighting back?

You folks are clever...good luck

[speaker]

Originally posted by Chancellor Qu'noH
Flag burning .... Really doesn't bother me. When a flag reaches it "retirement stage" they burn them anyway. As for someone burning it in protest.... well that under the constitution is they're right.

I am not for a amendment for that. If you go to that point then what is to stop them from taking it off my jacket or the ones you see in cars windows or anywhere they? deem inappropriate.

But the point you wish to hear is that I don't agree to it because it is {and I believe this} they're Right to do so to make a point. Most need to remember that we salute the Flag as a figure head. You honor what the flag means to you not what others want you to think it means. Same as saluting a senior officer. You salute the rank.......not the person under it.

My hat's off to Chancellor.

[Riven37]

I have VA today, I'll get back to this board and re-read everything again...soon !!!!:mad:

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Chancellor Qu'noH
Flag burning .... Really doesn't bother me. When a flag reaches it "retirement stage" they burn them anyway. As for someone burning it in protest.... well that under the constitution is they're right.

I am not for a amendment for that. If you go to that point then what is to stop them from taking it off my jacket or the ones you see in cars windows or anywhere they? deem inappropriate.

But the point you wish to hear is that I don't agree to it because it is {and I believe this} they're Right to do so to make a point. Most need to remember that we salute the Flag as a figure head. You honor what the flag means to you not what others want you to think it means. Same as saluting a senior officer. You salute the rank.......not the person under it.

Very well said, Chancellor. The hard part about freedom of speech is accepting that even people whose ideas and/or beliefs you despise have the right to express those ideas and/or beliefs.

[granpabob]

freedom of speach is one sided. sure you can burn the flag or a cross but you cant pray in school same with witchcraft on holloween (A religion ) but no God on christmass harry potters sorcery is ok but not the bible. its ok to slam the president but we are stupid if we back him. and rush may have good points or bad but that does not make all who disagree with the left ditto heads many of us dont like rush or any talk show
the flag represents the entire country when it is burned it says you hate the USA if that is your point go ahead and leave no one is forcing anyone to stay. if you find somewhere you like better good for you. flag burning is meant only to antaganize and force a confrontation it solves nothing.
but if we allow laws to be passed banning the right to protest it hurts freedom of speach oops they already have those laws you cant picket within fifty feet of a clinic but unions can block any driveway or doorway they want Yah freedom of speach is very one sided.
its almost against the law to be a white christain male conservative who likes the president
I thought everyone who liked the last president was insane so I guess its my turn to be insane now. just dont call me stupid because I disagree with you. and from behind these glasses my side seems right but dont stop giving me your point of veiw it makes me dig deeper into my own ideals and helps me further devolpe my point of veiw

[WestSideJohn]

I have a slightly different perspective, granpa. I don't see the whole "Christian male Conservatives under attack" thing - probably because I'm too busy being attacked by Christian male Conservatives, both legally and physically.

On the legal front, how many laws are on the books limiting the rights and freedoms of Christian male Conservatives in the United States? Now compare that with the number of laws on the books - enacted by Christian male Conservatives - limiting the rights and freedoms of gay people. How many Constitutional amendments targeting Christians have there been in the past few years? How many targeting gays?

Have you ever been physically assaulted for being Christian? A male? A Conservative? I've been <i>physically assaulted </i>for being gay, right here in Buffalo, New York. By Christian male Conservatives.

Have you ever attended a funeral where protesters picketed across the street because the deceased was a Christian? I've attended a funeral where protesters - Christians, by the way - picketed across the street because the deceased was gay.

The overwhelming majority of Christians are good, decent people who try to follow and live the teachings of Christ. That's wonderful. God bless them.

But come on, let's keep things real here. Christian male Conservatives have a great deal of political power in this country and to portray them as the helpless victims of those evil pagans is simply not accurate.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
I have a slightly different perspective, granpa. I don't see the whole "Christian male Conservatives under attack" thing - probably because I'm too busy being attacked by Christian male Conservatives, both legally and physically.

On the legal front, how many laws are on the books limiting the rights and freedoms of Christian male Conservatives in the United States? Now compare that with the number of laws on the books - enacted by Christian male Conservatives - limiting the rights and freedoms of gay people.

Have you ever been physically assaulted for being Christian? A male? A Conservative? I've been physically assaulted for being gay, right here in Buffalo, New York. By Christian male Conservatives.

Have you ever attended a funeral where protesters picketed across the street because the deceased was a Christian? I've attended a funeral where protesters - Christians, by the way - picketed across the street because the deceased was gay.

The overwhelming majority of Christians are good, decent people who try to follow and live the teachings of Christ. That's wonderful. God bless them.

But come on, let's keep things real here. Christian male Conservatives have a great deal of political power in this country and to portray them as the helpless victims of those evil pagans is simply not accurate.

That's just a sad situation no matter how you look at it. I never understood the Christians' cries of "we are being discriminated against". I take a lot of crap for being atheist, and quite frankly, am glad that prayer is not allowed in public schools. I don't want my children praying for anything. I honestly feel like any person that is religious feels that I am "no good" and feels like they have to convert me to make themselves feel better.

I can't completely sympathise with you though, because the discrimination that happens to atheists is definitely not the same as that of gays. I hadn't really even given it much thought until a friend of mine came out of the closet and feared the ramifications from friends and family.

The whole gay choir thing was sickening.

[ERIEMAN]

And for the record, I don't hate Bush because he is christian. I hate Bush because he wants everyone else to be christian.

[LaNdReW]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
so you liked his crack about Lynn Cheney's novel? or was it the one about President Clinton's cheating meant nothing? Which one of Pundit's profound comments did you like, or was it both of them? You call that fighting back?

You folks are clever...good luck

No, I liked this:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by buffalojoe
Some things that should make you think a little a little bit . . .

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during January . . . 1+ per day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Combat-related American deaths in Iraq:

Since war began (3/19/03): 1360
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) 1252
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 1056
Since Handover (6/29/04): 727
Since Election (1/31/05): 255

Approximately 13,000 US servicemen & women wounded since war began.

There were 40 US combat-related deaths in January 2004.

Every website I've found lists 107 american deaths during the month of January 2005. That's 3.5 per day.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the city of Detroit there were 35 murders during the month of January.

That's only one American city--about as deadly as all of war torn Iraq.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Maybe we should devote some resources to stopping those killings. But as we can see, January 2005 (long after the cessation of major combat operations) was three times deadlier than January 2004, or Detroit.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, but probably did not stop to consider:

FDR - led us into World War II. Germany had never attacked us; Japan had.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And a few days after we declared war on Japan, Germany & Italy declared war on the US, since they had an alliance known as the "Axis".


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year. an average of 308 PER DAY!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What's your point? That WWII wasn't worth fighting? Or the fact that the Iraq war, which is over 2 years old, hasn't yet produced so many US dead. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that WWII was a world war and not played out on the territory of one country.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Truman - finished that war and started one in Korea though North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year - or an average of 50 PER DAY!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



North Korea invaded South Korea. North Korea started that war. The United Nations Security Council voted to send a coalition of troops to Korea to turn the communists back. You see, back then there was a global cold war between communists & non-communists that occasionally turned "hot". Korea was one of those conflicts. If the UN hadn't come in to turn back the North Koreans (a brutal Stalinist regime), the entire Korean peninsula would now be run by Kim Jong Il. We turned them back almost to the Chinese border, but the Chinese got involved & pushed us halfway back. Truman wouldn't nuke China, so a cease fire was reached which is still in force today. The Korean war is technically still going on today.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John F. Kennedy - started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. Then Lyndon Johnson - turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year. Or an average of 16 PER DAY!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And there was a very, very strong anti-war movement that developed and totally changed the direction of American political discourse.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clinton - went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, yet Bosnia never attacked us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Clinton went to war in Bosnia with NATO and UN consent. Bosnia never attacked us. The Bosnian Serbs were attacking Bosnian Croat & Muslim civilians, and the UN decided that was not a nice thing to do, and NATO decided that genocide on the European continent in the 1990s probably wasn't a positive development.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama attacked us on multiple occasions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the years since terrorists attacked us President Bush liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, and crippled al-Qaida. He put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot. The terrorist, Sadam, who had slaughtered 300,000 fellow countrymen, was captured and is being held for trial by his own people.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Clinton put nuclear inspectors in North Korea, which were promptly expelled when Bush stuck them in the axis of evil. That freed up the N Koreans to complete their nuclear bombs.

The US doesn't have nuke inspectors in Iran, the IAEA does. And the Iranians aren't cooperating.

Libya is cooperating with its nuclear inspectors. Again - not the US, but the IAEA.

It is true that Saddam was captured and is being held for trial. And that is a good thing. But the war in Iraq seems to have no end as long as the Sunni-Qaeda insurgency continues to explode Americans and innocent Iraqis.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Democrats complain about how long the war is taking . . . but, it took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



We have taken Iraq, but the security situation is anything but stable. And I am sickened when people defend the Branch Davidians. All they had to do was comply with a warrant. Instead, they waged war on the government. And the government defended itself. If you're served with a warrant or subpoena, are you going to shoot the marshal? Anyone who does that deserves whatever they get.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chapaquiddick.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What on Earth does Ted Kennedy have to do with anything? Must be fun for you to make sick jokes over the body of dead girls.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For those who don't remember: During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA. Now he's a Senator! If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The John Glenn quote you cite didn't take place in 2004. It took place in 1974.

Metzenbaum left the Senate in 1995.

John Glenn left the Senate in 1999

And John Glenn never said those words on the Senate floor, but during a primary race in Ohio when the two DEMOCRATS were battling for the nomination to become Senators.

Finally, the 9/11 commission had this to say: "former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States....Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim."

You, therefore, endorse the claims of former officials of Sudan -- a country that the U.S. Department of State has designated as a state sponsor of terrorism every year since 1993 -- rather than the testimony of Clinton administration officials and the findings of the 9-11 Commission.

When I google "Metzenbaum defend communists", the first sites that pop up are predominantly neo-nazi, anti-semitic sites. Is that where you get your information from?


__________________

And This:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by buffknut
pundit. you have zero credibility with me. So your comments matter not to me. Go ahead, believe the BS you've been fed all you want. Enjoy your own blog all you want. Call me ignorant, bigoted and any other name you want.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The history of WWII is BS?

And what makes you think I give a crap whether I have "credibility with" you?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You forget about concentration camps in Iraq but then the treatment people get in that part of the world matters not to you, Amnesty Intl, Durbin, and the like. It's easy to criticise the US because you can get away with it without getting killed or imprisoned. Try that in the rest of the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I didn't forget about concentration camps in Iraq. If that was going to be the rationale to take Iraq to war, then that should have been stated. But the rationale was WMDs. Which aren't there. Which weren't there in 2003, either. Or 2002, for that matter. But don't let facts get in the way of your opinions.

Also: If you click this underlined text, you will be taken to the Amnesty International report on human rights in Iraq for the year 2001. Read it, and then tell me that Amnesty doesn't care about what happened there under Hussein. Why don't you at least take a smidgen of time to look things up before you spout off about them?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You care more about gitmo terrorists who would kill Americans if they could, than our military. You like it when lies are spread that can be used against America. You agree with Durbin & his ilk. Well I don't and I do think they are the traitors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No. I care more about traditional American values than I do about torturers or gitmo-held terrorists. I care more about the America that never would have dreamed of torturing or humiliating prisoners. I care more about the America that never would have imagined holding people in detention without trial, charge, or right of habeas corpus. That America is dying, and the pro-torture radical right are the ones killing it.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't lecture me on concentration camps. My Dad was there for the liberation of two so I've heard the stories.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



My dad was there? When did I "lecture" you about concentration camps? You're the one who inferred that invading Normandy to push back the Germans wasn't worth it. You're the one who needs to explain himself, not me.

Using your own logic, I could easily state that you care more about Nazi German scum than the people whom they oppressed.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are just another "I hate Bush" guy so you fit right in with the liberal Dem obstructionists who have no interest in fixing anything.

You are a lost cause in my book. You don't get it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ditto.


__________________

[--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are others but I dont feel like cutting and pasting all day.(plus I ran out of characters)

I could respond like you do, either by namecalling, belittling, or stating some out of context comment.

Whats next? Saying Gore said he invented the internet?

[atotaltotalfan2001]

Originally posted by steven
I cant speak for them but I can speak for me. I did my 20 and retireed in 2001 I was 11b, 11c, and 11m when I got out. Just because I was in the military does not mean I support the current president or his nation building dreams.



The mistake is thinking that US soldiers are policeman. They Are not. A US soldier is trained to fight in times of war. The war is over, nation building should be conducted by someone else.
If you have been in the military you should no that what we have been seeing in the news is wrong. Very wrong.

Take the prison scandal for instance. An SSG should not be running a prison camp especially a reserve SSG. He has niether the training nor the rank to have all the authority he had. This tells me the military is way overextended when they have a E-6 reservist doing something normaly an E-9 lifer would be doing.

History will not look back upon this time kindly.



Insightful post. What do you think the history books will say about this time?

[avet]

Flag burning .... Really doesn't bother me.
Same here.

A flag is nothing more than a "symbol". Just like a football crest or logo, it "symbolizies" an entity, like a sign on a store, to make itself readily & easily recognizable. Cheerleaders were "colors" and use pom-poms of the same color to make themselves stick out above all others. Bikers (bad boys) wear colors to designate themselves from other biker groups.

Some people can get "so worked up" over burning a flag, it borders on pure transe-like insanity. It is not anything more than a mere "symbol" of an entity.

Do you think it is worth dying for if you desecrate a bikers "colors" in some bar? It's just a "symbol", but to them, that will mean death or darn near to it. Why ? Cause that's the "weight' that these people give that "symbol". It's just a jacket with a sown on crest. If you found one lying somewhere near your house, you'd probably "burn it", cause generally their awful filthy and most, will even urinate on it as an initiation tradition. So to you it's just a filthy rag, but the bikers give it the "status" that some I'm sure, have died over for "any disrespect".


The flag is nothing more than a mere "symbol". Some people give it that "exact same weight" as a bikers colors, and absolutely go freekin "berzerk" if it even so much as "touches the ground" for a mere brief instant. It's just a "sign". Just a mere "symbol" , and to many others means absolutely "squat", just like the filthy colors you found laying near your house, that you could easily burn, or throw out, in an instant.

Some people give way more respect to a flag than they do other "real people" !

In my opinion "people" and there "actions" are worth 10 fold over what some mere "symbol" or "sign" or "flag" means. There are bikers who have really "earned" their colors, and then their are so-called bikers who just as easily can put on that established symbol they "bought" or had made, that probably never have even been in "any" fight, anywhere, or did any of the deeds required to earn them colors. But I guarantee one thing, that guy can "act" that part to the max, and will strut his attitude, his colors, his b.s.. with his chest out, MORE than any other guy whose actually been there and done it.

There are people who wave the flag the hardest, and the highest, like a "well trained" cheerleader with the "color coordinated" pom-poms, but when it comes down to actually "showing" or "doing", or having to "die" for that so called "symbol", they just can't seem to be found. Or they "WILL FIND" any reason, legality or "excuse", if there is one, anywhwere on the planet, not to stick their neck out in harm's way, to defend that so called "symbol" that they wave higher than everybody else.

The flag "symbolizes" America? Yet how do we treat those who actually been there and done it? We cut their funding? But in the very same newspaper, there will be an article describing a specific public union that got raises for their members that is well above even the standard rate of inflation - and that seems to go on year, after year, after year. Please explain that, to that vet, who came back disabled, or lost his job, or is living out on the streets. There's a whole lot of them. How many ex-teachers live in the "streets"? How many ex-politicians live in the "streets"? Know any ex-cops living in the "streets"?

If were going to go overboard with protecting a "symbol", then here's what I want done (if I really want to get crazy & "out of control" ).
How about a law, that all those who "fled" to Canada, to avoid the draft, (and then were given 100% amnesty), should not be even allowed to own a flag? Or be let to stand anywhere within 100 ft of a flag? That to many, who have actually "been there" and "done it", would "symbolize" a lot more.

"Symbols" can be easily "fabricated" & "sold", like the ribbons at Wal-mart.

People and their actions ..."cannot".

Their "actions" is what made America so great, not the "colors" they "wear". You burn a flag, whoop-de-do. We all kill, mame, torture, & burn "people", far, far worse than we can ever mistreat any flag, every single minute of the day, all over the globe, over nothing more than some fabricated ....."colors" (which they will also die for too).

Were arguing about protecting "colors" and not ...."people". It's very sad to me.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by avet
Were arguing about protecting "colors" and not ...."people". It's very sad to me. This is my vote for quote of the week.

[Boost Buffalo]

to suggest the flag is nothing but "colors" is extremely shallow and grossly disrespectful.

And this comes from a self proclaimed combat vet? I question that claim.

Shame on you for this assault against our flag and for which it stands, and as we approach July 4th, no less.

[avet]

You sir PROVE MY POINT TO A ...."t".

Thanks !

[speaker]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
to suggest the flag is nothing but "colors" is extremely shallow and grossly disrespectful.

And this comes from a self proclaimed combat vet? I question that claim.

Shame on you for this assault against our flag and for which it stands, and as we approach July 4th, no less.

OOOOOH GAWD

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by avet
Same here.

A flag is nothing more than a "symbol". Just like a football crest or logo, it "symbolizies" an entity, like a sign on a store, to make itself readily & easily recognizable. Cheerleaders were "colors" and use pom-poms of the same color to make themselves stick out above all others. Bikers (bad boys) wear colors to designate themselves from other biker groups.

Some people can get "so worked up" over burning a flag, it borders on pure transe-like insanity. It is not anything more than a mere "symbol" of an entity.

Do you think it is worth dying for if you desecrate a bikers "colors" in some bar? It's just a "symbol", but to them, that will mean death or darn near to it. Why ? Cause that's the "weight' that these people give that "symbol". It's just a jacket with a sown on crest. If you found one lying somewhere near your house, you'd probably "burn it", cause generally their awful filthy and most, will even urinate on it as an initiation tradition. So to you it's just a filthy rag, but the bikers give it the "status" that some I'm sure, have died over for "any disrespect".


The flag is nothing more than a mere "symbol". Some people give it that "exact same weight" as a bikers colors, and absolutely go freekin "berzerk" if it even so much as "touches the ground" for a mere brief instant. It's just a "sign". Just a mere "symbol" , and to many others means absolutely "squat", just like the filthy colors you found laying near your house, that you could easily burn, or throw out, in an instant.

Some people give way more respect to a flag than they do other "real people" !

In my opinion "people" and there "actions" are worth 10 fold over what some mere "symbol" or "sign" or "flag" means. There are bikers who have really "earned" their colors, and then their are so-called bikers who just as easily can put on that established symbol they "bought" or had made, that probably never have even been in "any" fight, anywhere, or did any of the deeds required to earn them colors. But I guarantee one thing, that guy can "act" that part to the max, and will strut his attitude, his colors, his b.s.. with his chest out, MORE than any other guy whose actually been there and done it.

There are people who wave the flag the hardest, and the highest, like a "well trained" cheerleader with the "color coordinated" pom-poms, but when it comes down to actually "showing" or "doing", or having to "die" for that so called "symbol", they just can't seem to be found. Or they "WILL FIND" any reason, legality or "excuse", if there is one, anywhwere on the planet, not to stick their neck out in harm's way, to defend that so called "symbol" that they wave higher than everybody else.

The flag "symbolizes" America? Yet how do we treat those who actually been there and done it? We cut their funding? But in the very same newspaper, there will be an article describing a specific public union that got raises for their members that is well above even the standard rate of inflation - and that seems to go on year, after year, after year. Please explain that, to that vet, who came back disabled, or lost his job, or is living out on the streets. There's a whole lot of them. How many ex-teachers live in the "streets"? How many ex-politicians live in the "streets"? Know any ex-cops living in the "streets"?

If were going to go overboard with protecting a "symbol", then here's what I want done (if I really want to get crazy & "out of control" ).
How about a law, that all those who "fled" to Canada, to avoid the draft, (and then were given 100% amnesty), should not be even allowed to own a flag? Or be let to stand anywhere within 100 ft of a flag? That to many, who have actually "been there" and "done it", would "symbolize" a lot more.

"Symbols" can be easily "fabricated" & "sold", like the ribbons at Wal-mart.

People and their actions ..."cannot".

Their "actions" is what made America so great, not the "colors" they "wear". You burn a flag, whoop-de-do. We all kill, mame, torture, & burn "people", far, far worse than we can ever mistreat any flag, every single minute of the day, all over the globe, over nothing more than some fabricated ....."colors" (which they will also die for too).

Were arguing about protecting "colors" and not ...."people". It's very sad to me.

that was a post worthy of saving. send that to people on the 4th and on flag day so people remember that they arent saluting a piece of cloth - they are saluting everything this country stands for. Good post, avet...

and i just figured out your name...a vet....

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
that was a post worthy of saving. send that to people on the 4th and on flag day so people remember that they arent saluting a piece of cloth - they are saluting everything this country stands for. Good post, avet...

and i just figured out your name...a vet....

Arent you the one that claims there's no God? None at all?

To compare our flag to a football logo is just outragous and immature as it gets. To call you kids shameful is being kind.

[atotaltotalfan2001]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
to suggest the flag is nothing but "colors" is extremely shallow and grossly disrespectful.

And this comes from a self proclaimed combat vet? I question that claim.

Shame on you for this assault against our flag and for which it stands, and as we approach July 4th, no less.


And you served your country in combat, when exactly? Common on. Show a little respect for those offering different opinions. Sounds like his opinions were forged in a different world than yours. You don't like his POV, so suddenly he's lying about his background? I think the person you should be shaming is yourself.

[avet]

If we were ever attacked, I'll take a few groups of dedicated, caring, "people", over 10,000 boatloads of "flags" any day of the week.

Flags flying everywhere, ... without "people" ....are totally "useless".

[ERIEMAN]

Arent you the one that claims there's no God? None at all?

that is correct. I do not believe in ghosts, nor do I believe in symbolism, pictures of mary underneath thruway overpasses, the shroud of turin, or noah's ark. Nor do I feel I have to prove myself intellectually because my beliefs differ from yours. I am conforted by the fact that others, like myself, question what our parents taught us. You should go to the Center for Inquiry someday. You might actually learn something.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/

There just happens to be a conference on "The Social Effects of Dogmatism and Deception" in September. You might want to go to that. Actually, take GWB with you.


To compare our flag to a football logo is just outragous and immature as it gets. To call you kids shameful is being kind. [/B]

Hey, if symbolism means something to you, then that's your thing. Don't knock those who look beyond the symbolism of the flag and actually focus on the meaning behind it.

[avet]

PEOPLE standing around, just holding flags are also...."useless"

in case were attacked.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by avet
If we were ever attacked, I'll take a few groups of dedicated, caring, "people", over 10,000 boatloads of "flags" any day of the week.

Flags flying everywhere, ... without "people" ....are totally "useless".

What did you think about kid rock with the flag? Bono at the super bowl?

I think KR took a lot of unnecessary flak for that incident. I can only think of a handful of artists that donate their time to USO...

and bono is an *******. he used the flag to line his leather jacket ater 9/11, and revealed it during the halftime show. he got a cheap ovation, in my opinion....

[avet]

What did you think about kid rock with the flag? Bono at the super bowl?
Can't say I'm familiar with either incident. For me, the people in the entertainment industry, who make mega-mega millions, that are all doing some major, major drugs, all the time, don't say too much that I really care about. They are not living in the real world, or have to abide by real world rules.

[Riven37]

Ok guys lets show our pride sign this post if you are a veteran.

Riven37

USMC. Lima Co. 3rd Battalion 1st Marine Division, Vietnam 69-70.

[Riven37]

Hey, if symbolism means something to you, then that's your thing. Don't knock those who look beyond the symbolism of the flag and actually focus on the meaning behind it. [/B][/QUOTE]


I don't think there is any meaning beyond the flag. The mean of the flag is the flag and I read your site sounds like sciencetology to me...Huber believed in what you believe in to be cleared is to be right.

I ask you to do one thing for me don't kick my flag in the dirt. I bleed under that flag and lost 42 good men under that flag. Be respectful toward my flag and me.


Now here's one for you.

I believe in god however, don't you think he is very tired of not talking for the past 2000 years. Find the premise in that one you none believer of ghost...

[Riven37]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
that was a post worthy of saving. send that to people on the 4th and on flag day so people remember that they arent saluting a piece of cloth - they are saluting everything this country stands for. Good post, avet...

and i just figured out your name...a vet....


Hey ERIEMAN, here's some news for you everything is symbolism from the flag to your home. So that means I can knock down your symbol of a home and you can't cry about it right ?

oh and here Riven 37 you shouldn't have any trouble figuring out my name hehehe.

[steven]

One of the most stirring lines I have every seen in a movie was in the move "Glory".

"If this man should fall, Who will Carry These colors!"

The colors (flag) dont have the meaning they did in those days primarily because they have lost there functional use. The Colors (flags) originated from use in combat. The commander would observe the battle from the highest piece of terran he could get a hold of and was only aware of who was what by where he could see the unit flags on the battlefield. In this manner he could deploy his units accordingly. Radios and technology have made that a thing of the past.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by Riven37

I don't think there is any meaning beyond the flag. The mean of the flag is the flag and I read your site sounds like sciencetology to me...Huber believed in what you believe in to be cleared is to be right.

you don't think theres any meaning beyond the flag? You don't think it stands for all of the men and women who died for this country so that we can keep our demcracy? You don't think it stands for all of the great leaders (before GWB) that shaped this country into what it is? You don't think it stands for all of our natural wonders, like Niagara Falls, the Grand Canyon, or even the waterfalls of Kauai? So when you say the pledge of allegiance, what are you actually doing?

scientology? do you even know what scientology is? they think ALIENS exist among us. Think "sciencefictiontology". the Center for Inquiry is essentially a classroom where they discuss free thought. It is a part of UB, and i believe they got a 20 or 30 million dollar grant to move to a bigger structure.


I ask you to do one thing for me don't kick my flag in the dirt. I bleed under that flag and lost 42 good men under that flag. Be respectful toward my flag and me..

I would never do any such thing.


Now here's one for you.

I believe in god however, don't you think he is very tired of not talking for the past 2000 years. Find the premise in that one you none believer of ghost...

Where's your logic? I could see your logic if you said "SHE is very tired", because no woman can keep quiet for longer than, say, the average length of a football game. But to trying to prove that there is a god by telling someone "you havent heard from this god, nor have you seen this god for a very long time, so you will soon" is just silly!

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by Riven37
Hey ERIEMAN, here's some news for you everything is symbolism from the flag to your home. So that means I can knock down your symbol of a home and you can't cry about it right ?


You have ZERO logic. None whatsoever.

[Riven37]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
You have ZERO logic. None whatsoever.


YOU NEED TO WATCH YOUR MOUTH WITH ME...RESPECT DUDE, NONE OF YOUR ub bs HIGH AND MIGHTY..... JERK:mad:

[Riven37]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
You have ZERO logic. None whatsoever.


I did hate Da Cart, if you know who he was hummmmmmmm!!!

[Riven37]

TO ERIEMAN


Where's your logic? I could see your logic if you said "SHE is very tired", because no woman can keep quiet for longer than, say, the average length of a football game. [/B][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by ERIEMAN
[B]


Now you are slapming women oh boy, I don't think many people here will like you Erieman.


And I could care less if your program has a Billion dollars...throwing your ego at others isn't very nice...lighten up you are not the high and mighty dude.

Here's one for you ERIEMAN...is appears it is not very logical for you to be on the internet...where's your logic for that one...I question if you even know what logical thinking is all about more like, you repeat what you learn form school.....hows that !!:D

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by Riven37
I did hate Da Cart, if you know who he was hummmmmmmm!!!

HAHAHAHAHHAH!HHAHAHAH! DA CART! HAHAHA!

I hate Ja Rule and 50 Cent. Is Da Cart some new rapper, or are you talking about Descartes?

[Boost Buffalo]

erieman is back pedaling, first he agrees with that flag desecrating and phoney avet, then he claims he understands the deep meaning of our flag, which includes our nation under God. But erieman is totally Godless. Then he states that he hates our president because of religion, as he refers to him as "your president". Not too consistent, erieman.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by Riven37
TO ERIEMAN


Where's your logic? I could see your logic if you said "SHE is very tired", because no woman can keep quiet for longer than, say, the average length of a football game.

Now you are slapming women oh boy, I don't think many people here will like you Erieman.


And I could care less if your program has a Billion dollars...throwing your ego at others isn't very nice...lighten up you are not the high and mighty dude.

Here's one for you ERIEMAN...is appears it is not very logical for you to be on the internet...where's your logic for that one...I question if you even know what logical thinking is all about more like, you repeat what you learn form school.....hows that !!:D


You won, man. I can't argue with that. You presented a fine case, young man! I really need to sit down and think why I'm on the internet now. I'll go back to "my program" now and think about it.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
erieman is back pedaling, first he agrees with that flag desecrating and phoney avet, then he claims he understands the deep meaning of our flag, which includes our nation under God. But erieman is totally Godless. Then he states that he hates our president because of religion, as he refers to him as "your president". Not too consistent, erieman.

Wow, you're absolutely right. I hate the flag because I don't believe in a god. I really hadn't thought about it in that light before, but now that you say it, I feel like my life has been explained to me.

I thought you weren't really reading my posts at all. Apparently, you were reading them a lot more carefully than I was because you got more meaning out of them than I actually put into them.

[avet]

I ask you to do one thing for me don't kick my flag in the dirt. I bleed under that flag and lost 42 good men under that flag. Be respectful toward my flag and me.
Riv buddy, nobody is suggesting to purposily disrespect the flag. Those 42 "good men", you, and the hundreds of thousands, more like millions, of other "good men" - "ARE" the flag. They are what makes it a symbol of all the "good" that we can be more than "extremely" proud of. They were there, "where ever" our country asked us to be - RIGHT or WRONG.

What disturbs me, is, that very SAME EXACT SYMBOL, represents many, CORPORATE CROOKS to many, many others all the way around the world.

I know you won't believe this, but a couple of weeks ago, I was watching the news, and they happened to show a video of the front of the Rath bldg as they were doing a story. There was an American flag waving in the breeze, and for a brief moment, I got really "pissed". I thought to myself, they don't DESERVE to HAVE an American Flag.

They are inept, crooked, and ripping off the taxpayers - and they have the AUDACITY to do it, inside a bldg behind an American flag ??? %$#*& !!!!! What a total freekin disgrace !!!!

WHERE'S KEN LAY? Remember him?
WHY ISN'T HE IN ...."JAIL" ???!!!
Why is this "HISTORY" making crook's "name", not even MENTIONED anymore?

To many others, everywhere else, when they think of the American flag, they think off things like this, because they don't know, or would even give a rat's a** even if they did know, about "run-away brides or any other petty a** bs. It's the Enron's (& their connections to the Bush's), and their "secret" deals, "secret" pipelines running across their country that they really care about. IT IS "THEIR" COUNTRY - NOT OURS. They are mostly poor & starving people, and in act of helplessness & desperation, can do little more than to burn our flag in anger. I can't hate them when I see that. I don't go "ballistic" over that.

How would we feel about it, if we found out that country "XYZ" was planning on building a very hush-hush $ecret pipeline across the USA ? We'd go FREEKIN BERZERK !!!!

Ain't it amazing how perfectly good crystal clear videos of our flag burnings appear "instantly", world-wide, in nations that don't even have tv's, video camera's, or even "electricity"? To be there to capture that very brief spontanious moment "perfectly" & be broadcasted "everywhere" is astonishing to me. It couldn't have been "planned" any better, to rile up the total fury of the American people who do go ballistic. How many "good men" have died over that?

Why are we financing this?: "U.S. taxpayers finance political risk insurance"

--------and not------------

our troops "defending" our country (Funding cut by 1 billion)

Whose getting the DISRESPECT here?
______________________________________________

The $550,025 that the Enron Corp. gave Bush over the years makes it his No. 1 career patron, according to the Center for Public Integrity.
Enron got Bush to contact Texas’ congressional delegation in ’97 to promote a corporate welfare program in which

-------U.S. taxpayers finance political risk insurance----------

for the foreign operations of corporations such as Enron.
_______________________________________________

Late last month, the wife of former Enron chairman Kenneth Lay tearfully told a national television audience that she and her husband were struggling to avoid personal bankruptcy following the collapse of the Houston energy-trading company. What Linda Lay failed to tell viewers of NBC's Today show, however, was that she and her husband had shifted millions in personal assets to investments that are beyond the reach of creditors or legal judgments.

In February 2000, Mother Jones has learned, the Lays paid about $4 million -- an amount greater than Lay's entire salary from Enron that year -- to buy variable annuities that will, starting in 2007, guarantee the couple an annual income of about $900,000. While stocks and most other ordinary investments are open to attack by creditors, life insurance policies and annuities are protected in many states. Variable annuities of the sort purchased by the Lays are basically tax-deferred investments wrapped in insurance policies.

Six states -- including Texas, where the Lays live -- provide the maximum degree of protection to investments in variable annuities, leaving them virtually impervious to attack by creditors.

(OUR FLAG REPRESENTS THIS KIND OF STUFF GOING ON ????)
_______________________________________

When Bush headed for the White House, he was backed by a wall of money - bent money. Fund-raiser-in-chief for his electoral campaign was Kenneth Lay, former chief executive of energy company Enron. Bush used to call him 'Kenny boy' before he found it prudent to distance himself from the crook. Lay was almost single-handedly responsible for a disappearing act on assets of $80 billion, the biggest corporate fraud in American history. As we have pointed out in an earlier article, Enron went from nothing to $80 billion and then back again. What did it ever produce? Nothing. Enron was a trader. What did it have to sell? It bought political influence in the States. Thirty-five members of the Bush administration were on the payroll or in receipt of 'donations' Enron then exported this political influence all over the world. Essentially it bought politicians in every continent and then mysteriously won the tenders for privatised energy projects.

(IT REPRESENTS THIS TOO, TO OTHERS)

[avet]

Right now, as I'm typing this, I'm watchin a C-Span Senate discussion about a proposal to create a law regarding flag burning . I'm listening to Sen Robert Bennet, Rep-Utah speak, & he said something that really stuck to me.

He said (don't quote me exactly - I don't type that fast):

"If we need to make it a 'law', ...an 'amendment', to ban flag burning, then what it stands for is pointless & truely undeserving"

In other words RESPECT can only be EARNED and cannot be aquired by ...

making it a "law" ...to respect it.

That "IS" the FREEDOM "good men" have fought for, and what the flag really should represent.

[LaNdReW]

Originally posted by avet
Riv buddy, nobody is suggesting to purposily disrespect the flag. Those 42 "good men", you, and the hundreds of thousands, more like millions, of other "good men" - "ARE" the flag. They are what makes it a symbol of all the "good" that we can be more than "extremely" proud of. They were there, "where ever" our country asked us to be - RIGHT or WRONG.

What disturbs me, is, that very SAME EXACT SYMBOL, represents many, CORPORATE CROOKS to many, many others all the way around the world.

I know you won't believe this, but a couple of weeks ago, I was watching the news, and they happened to show a video of the front of the Rath bldg as they were doing a story. There was an American flag waving in the breeze, and for a brief moment, I got really "pissed". I thought to myself, they don't DESERVE to HAVE an American Flag.

They are inept, crooked, and ripping off the taxpayers - and they have the AUDACITY to do it, inside a bldg behind an American flag ??? %$#*& !!!!! What a total freekin disgrace !!!!

WHERE'S KEN LAY? Remember him?
WHY ISN'T HE IN ...."JAIL" ???!!!
Why is this "HISTORY" making crook's "name", not even MENTIONED anymore?

To many others, everywhere else, when they think of the American flag, they think off things like this, because they don't know, or would even give a rat's a** even if they did know, about "run-away brides or any other petty a** bs. It's the Enron's (& their connections to the Bush's), and their "secret" deals, "secret" pipelines running across their country that they really care about. IT IS "THEIR" COUNTRY - NOT OURS. They are mostly poor & starving people, and in act of helplessness & desperation, can do little more than to burn our flag in anger. I can't hate them when I see that. I don't go "ballistic" over that.

How would we feel about it, if we found out that country "XYZ" was planning on building a very hush-hush $ecret pipeline across the USA ? We'd go FREEKIN BERZERK !!!!

Ain't it amazing how perfectly good crystal clear videos of our flag burnings appear "instantly", world-wide, in nations that don't even have tv's, video camera's, or even "electricity"? To be there to capture that very brief spontanious moment "perfectly" & be broadcasted "everywhere" is astonishing to me. It couldn't have been "planned" any better, to rile up the total fury of the American people who do go ballistic. How many "good men" have died over that?

Why are we financing this?: "U.S. taxpayers finance political risk insurance"

--------and not------------

our troops "defending" our country (Funding cut by 1 billion)

Whose getting the DISRESPECT here?
______________________________________________

The $550,025 that the Enron Corp. gave Bush over the years makes it his No. 1 career patron, according to the Center for Public Integrity.
Enron got Bush to contact Texas’ congressional delegation in ’97 to promote a corporate welfare program in which

-------U.S. taxpayers finance political risk insurance----------

for the foreign operations of corporations such as Enron.
_______________________________________________

Late last month, the wife of former Enron chairman Kenneth Lay tearfully told a national television audience that she and her husband were struggling to avoid personal bankruptcy following the collapse of the Houston energy-trading company. What Linda Lay failed to tell viewers of NBC's Today show, however, was that she and her husband had shifted millions in personal assets to investments that are beyond the reach of creditors or legal judgments.

In February 2000, Mother Jones has learned, the Lays paid about $4 million -- an amount greater than Lay's entire salary from Enron that year -- to buy variable annuities that will, starting in 2007, guarantee the couple an annual income of about $900,000. While stocks and most other ordinary investments are open to attack by creditors, life insurance policies and annuities are protected in many states. Variable annuities of the sort purchased by the Lays are basically tax-deferred investments wrapped in insurance policies.

Six states -- including Texas, where the Lays live -- provide the maximum degree of protection to investments in variable annuities, leaving them virtually impervious to attack by creditors.

(OUR FLAG REPRESENTS THIS KIND OF STUFF GOING ON ????)
_______________________________________

When Bush headed for the White House, he was backed by a wall of money - bent money. Fund-raiser-in-chief for his electoral campaign was Kenneth Lay, former chief executive of energy company Enron. Bush used to call him 'Kenny boy' before he found it prudent to distance himself from the crook. Lay was almost single-handedly responsible for a disappearing act on assets of $80 billion, the biggest corporate fraud in American history. As we have pointed out in an earlier article, Enron went from nothing to $80 billion and then back again. What did it ever produce? Nothing. Enron was a trader. What did it have to sell? It bought political influence in the States. Thirty-five members of the Bush administration were on the payroll or in receipt of 'donations' Enron then exported this political influence all over the world. Essentially it bought politicians in every continent and then mysteriously won the tenders for privatised energy projects.

(IT REPRESENTS THIS TOO, TO OTHERS)

Very nice post.

[speaker]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
erieman is back pedaling, first he agrees with that flag desecrating and phoney avet, then he claims he understands the deep meaning of our flag, which includes our nation under God. But erieman is totally Godless. Then he states that he hates our president because of religion, as he refers to him as "your president". Not too consistent, erieman.

You are sooooo right, boost, now, will you please give it a rest?:D

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by LaNdReW
Very nice post.

Yes. Avet would have made Da Cart very proud.

[granpabob]

seems to me that this entire post is stating that if I like the president of the United States i' m dumb
if i repsect the flag i'm an idiot
and I am totally hopeless if I believe in GOD
Maybe I should just bow down befor your suppior logic and give up my religion for your new age crap.
or should I take down the flag i fly in front of my home to honor those who died fighting under its banner. should I stop removing my hat when it passes so as not to offend you. will you laugh at me when I solute what you call meaningless
to me not respecting the flag and the country means I show disrespect for all who fought so it could still fly.
you can have it your way just dont call me stupid because I beleive in God Country and the flag .I do stand for the national anthem or is that just another song to all of you

[granpabob]

I joined speak up because I thought it was a way to help or county a way to straighten out the mess we have right here at home .
I did not join this group so everything I beleive in could be belittled there are many of us idiots who do beleive in old fashioned ideals. God the flag the president (Yes I did not like clinton but He was the elected president so He was my president its part of democracy I may not like the man in office but I respect the office he is serving in. reagan and the bushes I voted for and would again.
I am not going to waste mytime being told how stupid I am to deagree with you if you want to talk about erie county buffalo and our problems that is where you will find me

[WestSideJohn]

Here are a few of the many things the flag represents to me:

Liberty
Equality
Justice
Honesty
Opportunity
Fairness
Freedom
Bravery
Sacrifice

I see these things under attack <i>every day</i> in this country, and that pisses me off far more than a piece of fabric being lit on fire. Nobody is saying that showing respect for the flag means you're an idiot. What I <i>am</i> saying is that many of the people crying out for protection for the flag are the very same ones attacking the things the flag stands for.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by granpabob
seems to me that this entire post is stating that if I like the president of the United States i' m dumb
if i repsect the flag i'm an idiot
and I am totally hopeless if I believe in GOD
Maybe I should just bow down befor your suppior logic and give up my religion for your new age crap.
or should I take down the flag i fly in front of my home to honor those who died fighting under its banner. should I stop removing my hat when it passes so as not to offend you. will you laugh at me when I solute what you call meaningless
to me not respecting the flag and the country means I show disrespect for all who fought so it could still fly.
you can have it your way just dont call me stupid because I beleive in God Country and the flag .I do stand for the national anthem or is that just another song to all of you

I CHALLENGE you to show me the post in which I said that people believe in god are stupid. Post it. For everyone to see. I'd like to see it myself. I'm the one defending my beliefs, not you. It was Boost Buffalo that tried to discredit me by pointing out my atheism, and not ONCE did I profess to know who was right or who was wrong. I maintained that it was what I believed, and didn't treat anyone as if they were wrong for believing in a god.

also

I CHALLENGE you to find the post in which I said it was offensive or meaningless to salute the flag. You won't find it. In fact, I listed what the flag means to me.

You've completely missed the point of this thread and what people are trying to say. People are saying that the flag means more to them than anything you could even fathom in that closed-minded brain of yours. Whether you've served this country in time of war or not, the flag invokes thoughts of SOMETHING. Some 'nam vets must fu*king HATE the flag since it might invoke thoughts of their country sending them to a senseless war. Or, because they are a paraplegic after losing both legs in a minefield.

However, behind the flag is the USA alone. Whether the flag is there or not, people have this country to be proud of or hate.

[speaker]

grandpa--you're reading these things INTO posts. If you really read them you'll see a bunch of people who love their country. I have a big flag out in front of my house. I'm not sure if the God people talk about it a great big guy with grey hair and beard who just sits up in the sky, or what. I feel a spiritual presence. I'm sure that my questioning Him does not offend Him, if He's there.
My kind of God would appreciate the questions.
I just ask, why, in this year 2005 are we still killing each other. The pain and waste. All of those years of raising these kids, all of these people who were beloved babies at one time--we feed and nurture them so they can be slaughtered?

[speaker]

Originally posted by speaker
They will fight as long and as hard as they can because they don't care if they die-dying is just moving on to a better place to them.

I just want to straighten out this post of mine. I mean, the insurgents are taught they're going off to a better place ( 28 virgins, ten young men, and all that) so they are the formidable danger--because they don't care if they die. Our troops don't want to die, they see a wonderful life right here and then maybe heaven.
Just wanted to say that:)

[avet]

there are many of us idiots who do beleive in old fashioned ideals.
I don't give a rats behind about, ...it was Clinton\Bush, or it was the Rep\Dem's, or the Left\Rights !!!!

We are in BIG, BIG TROUBLE as a nation - without naming ANY specific names. Corporate Greed is RAMPANT and GROWING into WORLD proportions - YET NOTHING IS BEING DONE TO STOP IT!!

Where have the "old fashioned ideals" gone you ask?

We are RIGHT NOW, "in the present" :

The most "hated" country IN THE WORLD.

Extremely BROKE and the deficit is getting worse by a mile everyday.

Yet, we have INDIVIDUALS who are NOW more wealthy than many ENTIRE NATIONS, and THEY are the ONLY ones getting the HUGE TAX BREAKS.

We have INDIVIDUALS who stole BILLIONS who were NEVER arrested, and STILL live like kings

We have VETERANS defending the flag, who live in the streets, are jobless, or making very low wages

Remember that proud old saying "Made in the USA" - well that's 'history' today, ain't it ?

Remember pensions? (none public jobs) They used to be around.

Remember when a brief hospital stay used to be a couple hundred dollars? Well TODAY, filling a single perscription costs that much. Thanks to rampant CORRUPT corporate practices.

Remember a new car costing $1,500 ? Today just your 'car insurance' is that much. Average new car is $30,000 +. Thank your "unchecked" rampant CORPORATE greed for that.

Remember when premium gasoline was 24-25 cents a gallon, AND they pumped it, AND they checked the air in your tires, radiator, oil level, and washed your windshield ?

Remember a new house costing a mere 15-20 grand? Well that EXACT same house today is SUPPOSEDLY now worth $85,000 (by your tax assor - not your realitor) and the tax rate on that same house has quadrupled or more.

Remember when you used to put your money in the bank and make some small interest? What's the interest rate now? FIVE cents for $1,000 per month ? Go borrow that same money out of your bank!

Remember when we had presidents\candidates who DIDN'T belong to "Skull & Bones" ? Remember when we used to have debates? (real ones)?

Remember when Social Security was secure?

Remember when the CIA did'nt have "top secret" budgets that God only knows is how big?

Etc.

Well, grandpabob THEM DAYS ARE OVER & LONG GONE. AND UNLESS WE STOP IT, IT IS GOING TO GET A LOT, LOT WORSE.(period)

BY THE WAY THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE "NEW AGE"

IT'S CAUSED BY YOUR "NEW WORLD ORDER" (as quoted by Bush Sr. in a public speech as Pres.)

PLEASE ....SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL "MULTI-BILLIONAIRE" ..."*HAVE MORES" (*as quoted by Bush Jr. as Pres)

IT'S THE "NEW CORPORATE - NWO - AMERICAN WAY" !!!

[avet]

Remember when the hard earned money you saved long and hard for had a plaque over the kitchen doorway ?

---"My house is my castle"----

Well, it ain't that way anymore, is it?

Did you or I or any legal citizen in the USA fly a plane into the twin towers? Cause it's OUR rights that are dwindling, step by step, while at the same time, our borders have bigger "WELCOME" signs - right behind the "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" sign.


Neighborhood shudders at eminent domain's reach

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050701/1018821.asp

The Supreme Court's latest ruling on eminent domain could have far-reaching consequences. In theory, a developer who wants to replace smaller homes with more expensive houses could now do so whether property owners like it or not.

[Nicolas II]

I don't disagree with you one bit, and in many respects I begin to feel that this is not the America that I was raised in...........however, is that reality, or merely evoultion of perspective over time? For instance, read (or watch) the Grapes of Wrath----things appeared rather dismal back then as well. Corporate greed has always existed. In fact, one could argue that it is a necessity for the corporation to exist. Be that as it may, I suspect that as we get older, we become more sensitive to, and intolerant of, the constant kicks in the ass rendered to the "little guys". Is there a solution? Well, ultimately enough little guys band together to start a revolution.

[avet]

________________________________

is that reality, or merely evoultion of perspective over time?
________________________________

It's a reality that's been in a gradual process since 1913 when the "richest" people in the world, at the time, got together in "secret" to create the Federal Reserve System, which is neither Federal, nor government controlled, nor even owned by Americans. Yet it has more power than the president of the US & has complete control over our finances & the ability to print any and all paper money they want (not backed by any gold).

Just like the tale; "There once was a papa bull & his son standing on a hill, overlooking a herd of cows,....." it's been a long but slow & steadily progressive process.

________________________________

Corporate greed has always existed. In fact, one could argue that it is a necessity for the corporation to exist.
_________________________________

It definitly needs to 'profit' to exist, but today those profits are in 'no' way being distributed evenly. The workers are made to work longer and harder, the corporations are avoiding paying any fair share of their taxes, thru newly created off-shore tax shelters & a very, very complicated tax code. They DEMAND tax breaks to build\expand their record profiting business. The well-off corp leaders, who make almost as much as a million dollars a month, are paying less taxes, thru off-shore banks, tax loopholes, and government handed out tax breaks.

Everything that is happening today, was an acknowledged fear & dicussed as potential problems as early as when they were writting the Constitution, by our forefathers.

Big money will "control" government - not the people. And that's "exactly" what's happening!


________________________________

"Be that as it may, I suspect that as we get older, we become more sensitive to, and intolerant of, the constant kicks in the ass rendered to the "little guys"
________________________________

Those mere little 0.025% tax raises, or so, over many, many years, are now bitting us in the butt, cause we always just said, "hell, what's another mere 0.025% or so?" But what about taking into account the adjusted inflation rate for today's min wage? That 0.025% increase feels like .25% to the "have nots". They cannot sacrifice anymore while the "have mores" take, and take, and take.

The solution, which is now going to have to be extremely drastic, "cannot" & "will not" happen, as long as there are those with big $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

We cannot even control a piss-ant, out of control county, let alone an entire nations economy, controlled by the millionaires\billionairs, and working in MEGA-TRILLION dollars of out of control budgets. They are Giambra's on triple strength Viagara

[Riven37]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
HAHAHAHAHHAH!HHAHAHAH! DA CART! HAHAHA!

I hate Ja Rule and 50 Cent. Is Da Cart some new rapper, or are you talking about Descartes?


Yep, Descartes...spend his whole life trying to prove is god real... Hey three college dgrees later I still can't spell that mans name hehe My professor couldn't spell mine either....:D

[Riven37]

Originally posted by avet
Riv buddy, nobody is suggesting to purposily disrespect the flag. Those 42 "good men", you, and the hundreds of thousands, more like millions, of other "good men" - "ARE" the flag. They are what makes it a symbol of all the "good" that we can be more than "extremely" proud of. They were there, "where ever" our country asked us to be - RIGHT or WRONG.

What disturbs me, is, that very SAME EXACT SYMBOL, represents many, CORPORATE CROOKS to many, many others all the way around the world.

I know you won't believe this, but a couple of weeks ago, I was watching the news, and they happened to show a video of the front of the Rath bldg as they were doing a story. There was an American flag waving in the breeze, and for a brief moment, I got really "pissed". I thought to myself, they don't DESERVE to HAVE an American Flag.

They are inept, crooked, and ripping off the taxpayers - and they have the AUDACITY to do it, inside a bldg behind an American flag ??? %$#*& !!!!! What a total freekin disgrace !!!!

WHERE'S KEN LAY? Remember him?
WHY ISN'T HE IN ...."JAIL" ???!!!
Why is this "HISTORY" making crook's "name", not even MENTIONED anymore?

To many others, everywhere else, when they think of the American flag, they think off things like this, because they don't know, or would even give a rat's a** even if they did know, about "run-away brides or any other petty a** bs. It's the Enron's (& their connections to the Bush's), and their "secret" deals, "secret" pipelines running across their country that they really care about. IT IS "THEIR" COUNTRY - NOT OURS. They are mostly poor & starving people, and in act of helplessness & desperation, can do little more than to burn our flag in anger. I can't hate them when I see that. I don't go "ballistic" over that.

How would we feel about it, if we found out that country "XYZ" was planning on building a very hush-hush $ecret pipeline across the USA ? We'd go FREEKIN BERZERK !!!!

Ain't it amazing how perfectly good crystal clear videos of our flag burnings appear "instantly", world-wide, in nations that don't even have tv's, video camera's, or even "electricity"? To be there to capture that very brief spontanious moment "perfectly" & be broadcasted "everywhere" is astonishing to me. It couldn't have been "planned" any better, to rile up the total fury of the American people who do go ballistic. How many "good men" have died over that?

Why are we financing this?: "U.S. taxpayers finance political risk insurance"

--------and not------------

our troops "defending" our country (Funding cut by 1 billion)

Whose getting the DISRESPECT here?
______________________________________________

The $550,025 that the Enron Corp. gave Bush over the years makes it his No. 1 career patron, according to the Center for Public Integrity.
Enron got Bush to contact Texas’ congressional delegation in ’97 to promote a corporate welfare program in which

-------U.S. taxpayers finance political risk insurance----------

for the foreign operations of corporations such as Enron.
_______________________________________________

Late last month, the wife of former Enron chairman Kenneth Lay tearfully told a national television audience that she and her husband were struggling to avoid personal bankruptcy following the collapse of the Houston energy-trading company. What Linda Lay failed to tell viewers of NBC's Today show, however, was that she and her husband had shifted millions in personal assets to investments that are beyond the reach of creditors or legal judgments.

In February 2000, Mother Jones has learned, the Lays paid about $4 million -- an amount greater than Lay's entire salary from Enron that year -- to buy variable annuities that will, starting in 2007, guarantee the couple an annual income of about $900,000. While stocks and most other ordinary investments are open to attack by creditors, life insurance policies and annuities are protected in many states. Variable annuities of the sort purchased by the Lays are basically tax-deferred investments wrapped in insurance policies.

Six states -- including Texas, where the Lays live -- provide the maximum degree of protection to investments in variable annuities, leaving them virtually impervious to attack by creditors.

(OUR FLAG REPRESENTS THIS KIND OF STUFF GOING ON ????)
_______________________________________

When Bush headed for the White House, he was backed by a wall of money - bent money. Fund-raiser-in-chief for his electoral campaign was Kenneth Lay, former chief executive of energy company Enron. Bush used to call him 'Kenny boy' before he found it prudent to distance himself from the crook. Lay was almost single-handedly responsible for a disappearing act on assets of $80 billion, the biggest corporate fraud in American history. As we have pointed out in an earlier article, Enron went from nothing to $80 billion and then back again. What did it ever produce? Nothing. Enron was a trader. What did it have to sell? It bought political influence in the States. Thirty-five members of the Bush administration were on the payroll or in receipt of 'donations' Enron then exported this political influence all over the world. Essentially it bought politicians in every continent and then mysteriously won the tenders for privatised energy projects.

(IT REPRESENTS THIS TOO, TO OTHERS)



Lighten up dude...check your angry level...lighten up...its out of your control dude....


I don't like it when I see the American flag being burned or drag in the dirty. An image comes to me when I see that an image I lived long ago. Our combat base flew three flags we fought under. American flag, South Vietnam flag and the Confeterate flag.

I know I can't control who does what buy in my book...its wrong but yet again, this country is changing and changing for the worst I believe. I believe we are heading toward a dectatorship in this country. The signs are all around you if you stop and listen to congress and what they are saying. Congress is telling america that change is coming. I don't believe I will see this change but if I do, I know I wont like it.

[Riven37]

Originally posted by granpabob
seems to me that this entire post is stating that if I like the president of the United States i' m dumb
if i repsect the flag i'm an idiot
and I am totally hopeless if I believe in GOD
Maybe I should just bow down befor your suppior logic and give up my religion for your new age crap.
or should I take down the flag i fly in front of my home to honor those who died fighting under its banner. should I stop removing my hat when it passes so as not to offend you. will you laugh at me when I solute what you call meaningless
to me not respecting the flag and the country means I show disrespect for all who fought so it could still fly.
you can have it your way just dont call me stupid because I beleive in God Country and the flag .I do stand for the national anthem or is that just another song to all of you


granpabob, no one is saying you need to change and don't you dare so. I think there is so much diversaty on these boards and much are young bloods, who one day, will run this country. I believe America is changing going in the wrong direction like passing that land grab issue recently by the Supreme Court which I believe is way out in left feild, far left. Once they replace O'Connor you will see all these isssue come up in the Supreme Court.

[Riven37]

Originally posted by avet
I don't give a rats behind about, ...it was Clinton\Bush, or it was the Rep\Dem's, or the Left\Rights !!!!

We are in BIG, BIG TROUBLE as a nation - without naming ANY specific names. Corporate Greed is RAMPANT and GROWING into WORLD proportions - YET NOTHING IS BEING DONE TO STOP IT!!

Where have the "old fashioned ideals" gone you ask?

We are RIGHT NOW, "in the present" :

The most "hated" country IN THE WORLD.

Extremely BROKE and the deficit is getting worse by a mile everyday.

Yet, we have INDIVIDUALS who are NOW more wealthy than many ENTIRE NATIONS, and THEY are the ONLY ones getting the HUGE TAX BREAKS.

We have INDIVIDUALS who stole BILLIONS who were NEVER arrested, and STILL live like kings

We have VETERANS defending the flag, who live in the streets, are jobless, or making very low wages

Remember that proud old saying "Made in the USA" - well that's 'history' today, ain't it ?

Remember pensions? (none public jobs) They used to be around.

Remember when a brief hospital stay used to be a couple hundred dollars? Well TODAY, filling a single perscription costs that much. Thanks to rampant CORRUPT corporate practices.

Remember a new car costing $1,500 ? Today just your 'car insurance' is that much. Average new car is $30,000 +. Thank your "unchecked" rampant CORPORATE greed for that.

Remember when premium gasoline was 24-25 cents a gallon, AND they pumped it, AND they checked the air in your tires, radiator, oil level, and washed your windshield ?

Remember a new house costing a mere 15-20 grand? Well that EXACT same house today is SUPPOSEDLY now worth $85,000 (by your tax assor - not your realitor) and the tax rate on that same house has quadrupled or more.

Remember when you used to put your money in the bank and make some small interest? What's the interest rate now? FIVE cents for $1,000 per month ? Go borrow that same money out of your bank!

Remember when we had presidents\candidates who DIDN'T belong to "Skull & Bones" ? Remember when we used to have debates? (real ones)?

Remember when Social Security was secure?

Remember when the CIA did'nt have "top secret" budgets that God only knows is how big?

Etc.

Well, grandpabob THEM DAYS ARE OVER & LONG GONE. AND UNLESS WE STOP IT, IT IS GOING TO GET A LOT, LOT WORSE.(period)

BY THE WAY THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE "NEW AGE"

IT'S CAUSED BY YOUR "NEW WORLD ORDER" (as quoted by Bush Sr. in a public speech as Pres.)

PLEASE ....SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL "MULTI-BILLIONAIRE" ..."*HAVE MORES" (*as quoted by Bush Jr. as Pres)

IT'S THE "NEW CORPORATE - NWO - AMERICAN WAY" !!!


A vet let me ask you this question, Why are you so angry?

My scond question is this, Do you feel you've been cheated ?

[Riven37]

This is my last word on flag buring.

In my angry way:

I see anyone burning my flag expect an ass kicking and if I can't beat you expect to see my gun up your ass.

If that doesn't work check your home or car might be booby traped.


Normal way:

I see anyone burning my flag I'm sure I'll have fun with taken their identity and reek havic in their life.

If that doesn't work I'm sure I could fine so dirty to pass around.


Rational way:

I see anyone buring my flag taking their picture and placing it on a web site would make their life a bit unhappier.

If that doesn't work sending their picture to a forgian country with a ltter staying how he/she hates their country, religion, etc...





:p

[lyn1639]

Originally posted by Riven37
Lighten up dude...check your angry level...lighten up...its out of your control dude....


I don't like it when I see the American flag being burned or drag in the dirty. An image comes to me when I see that an image I lived long ago. Our combat base flew three flags we fought under. American flag, South Vietnam flag and the Confeterate flag.

I know I can't control who does what buy in my book...its wrong but yet again, this country is changing and changing for the worst I believe. I believe we are heading toward a dectatorship in this country. The signs are all around you if you stop and listen to congress and what they are saying. Congress is telling america that change is coming. I don't believe I will see this change but if I do, I know I wont like it.

You remind me of my cynical aunt who says that what's really been going on for years is that "they're trying to bring us down to the level of less well-off countries just to shut them up". I don't quite believe that, but I do see the changes, also. If nothing else, we are our own worst enemies because we often allow it to happen by letting petty divisiveness (much of what has been said on this thread as an example) weaken our voices instead of uniting into a strong voice in defense of what the founders of our country believed in strongly enough to rebel against a king to achieve. As we approach the celebration of Independence Day, we need to reflect on those beliefs and ask ourselves if they are indeed still important. I know where I stand on it. I'm the daughter of a country founded by rebels, and I'll be damned if I'll go down without a fight!

[atotaltotalfan2001]

Originally posted by lyn1639
You remind me of my cynical aunt who says that what's really been going on for years is that "they're trying to bring us down to the level of less well-off countries just to shut them up". I don't quite believe that, but I do see the changes, also. If nothing else, we are our own worst enemies because we often allow it to happen by letting petty divisiveness (much of what has been said on this thread as an example) weaken our voices instead of uniting into a strong voice in defense of what the founders of our country believed in strongly enough to rebel against a king to achieve. As we approach the celebration of Independence Day, we need to reflect on those beliefs and ask ourselves if they are indeed still important. I know where I stand on it. I'm the daughter of a country founded by rebels, and I'll be damned if I'll go down without a fight!



Frankly, I don't even see the point of the flag burning amendment, or the controversy surrounding it.

Flag burning is not rampant -- never has been, in this country at least. This, anyway, is what the Citizens Flag Alliance says, a group that is solidly behind the proposed amendment.

From it's web site:

"Flag burning has never been widespread in our society...... "


If flag burning ever did become rampant, I'd say something was seriously wrong in this country, since it has been, by and large, respectful of its flag and what it is meant to represent. At that point, flag-burning would be the least of its problems.

I think flag burning is one of those "non-issue" issues meant to polarize this country even more. United we stand, divided we fall -- or, in this case, fail to notice serious issues, like a war without end, terrorism, the constant deterioration of the middle class, the almost certainty that none of us will have pensions one day and will be just plain lucky if we can even afford health care.

With issues like that before us, it seems a poor use of our time to focus on a problem that is, in fact, not a problem at all.

[speaker]

Originally posted by atotaltotalfan2001
I think flag burning is one of those "non-issue" issues meant to polarize this country even more. United we stand, divided we fall -- With issues like that before us, it seems a poor use of our time to focus on a problem that is, in fact, not a problem at all.

I agree with this.

[steven]

Since this thread is tittled for vetrans I' will re ask a question here, sorry for the repost but no one has answered me as of yet.

-Bush has cut Va funding almost ever chance he could get.

-He hasnt passed one decent pay raise for soldiers since being in office despite deploying soldiers in various hot spots in the world.

-But worst of all Bush threatened to veto the dsiability bill (CRSC)and congress (in one of the few shows of bipartisanship) had to attach the bill to something else Bush wanted before he was forced to sign it. Even then it was approved as a "phased in" meaning many vietnam and Korea era vetrans will never live to see that what was rightfully thiers. Even worse disabled vets rated at 50% and below still dont get it.

When I hear people mentioning support Bush and the troops in the same breath I shudder. When will he Support the troops?

For that matter I see a lot of vetrans or people that say they are vetrans supporting Bush. Do you my fellow vetrans have any clue about how he has acted on the legislation that affects you? CRC Retired pay. etc? Or are all of you one or two tour vetrans with no disabiltys that his actions have had no effect on?

[Riven37]

Originally posted by steven
Bush has cut Va funding almost ever chance he could get.

Steve, I don't understand what you mean by Bush cut vets benefits. When in fact, we will be getting 32 million for healthcare this year and next year.

-He hasnt passed one decent pay raise for soldiers since being in office despite deploying soldiers in various hot spots in the world.

Yes Steve, your right about this and many are on food stamps and welfare which many don't hear about. I believe they should be paid according to the action their in. Correct me if I'm wrong, when I was in Vietnam I received combat pay and hazardous duty pay and overseas pay...I wonder do our todays troops get this or not.?

-But worst of all Bush threatened to veto the dsiability bill (CRSC)and congress (in one of the few shows of bipartisanship) had to attach the bill to something else Bush wanted before he was forced to sign it. Even then it was approved as a "phased in" meaning many vietnam and Korea era vetrans will never live to see that what was rightfully thiers. Even worse disabled vets rated at 50% and below still dont get it.

Steve, I know Washington has been trying to cut off vets with 50 % and below and only service 60 & above like my self. This would save congress billions each year but they (congress) has been stop by us vets.

When I hear people mentioning support Bush and the troops in the same breath I shudder. When will he Support the troops?

Don't shudder Steve, I support our troops because I understand how important for them to know they are supported from back home and this is from my first hand experience. Today, I still feel those bad feelings when I received no support only to get slaped, punch, spit on and called many names.

For that matter I see a lot of vetrans or people that say they are vetrans supporting Bush. Do you my fellow vetrans have any clue about how he has acted on the legislation that affects you? CRC Retired pay. etc? Or are all of you one or two tour vetrans with no disabiltys that his actions have had no effect on?

Well Steve CRC doesn't effect me I'm not retired out due to wounds but I know some vets who are and let me tell you this, I wish I had retired out due to wounds because they are making more money then I will ever make. And what congress needs to do is pay us disable vet a decent pay rate. I will never work again and you make more then I..I'm near homelessness if prices keep climbing up.

Anything else Steve ......

[lyn1639]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by avet
[B]________________________________


"Be that as it may, I suspect that as we get older, we become more sensitive to, and intolerant of, the constant kicks in the ass rendered to the "little guys"
________________________________

Those mere little 0.025% tax raises, or so, over many, many years, are now bitting us in the butt, cause we always just said, "hell, what's another mere 0.025% or so?" But what about taking into account the adjusted inflation rate for today's min wage? That 0.025% increase feels like .25% to the "have nots". They cannot sacrifice anymore while the "have mores" take, and take, and take.

==================================

I thought that all was just a backdoor "fix" for Social Security and Medicare ..... we work and work, pay into it all along, and then considerately die before reaching retirement because health care got too expensive for us working stiffs without golden parachutes, tax shelters, and bene's out the wazoo. Or maybe I'm just cranky because I need to start getting ready to leave for work.

[steven]

Riven
Your post doesn't make any sense. By "retired due to wounds" I am assuming you mean disabled vets? If so First you say "I know some vets who are and let me tell you this, I wish I had retired out due to wounds because they are making more money then I will ever make" Then you say "what congress needs to do is pay us disable vet a decent pay rate".

Which is it?

I'm sorry but I don't understand what your trying to say. At first it seems your implying disabled vets make to much, which I find hard to believe, then you are saying we don't make enough and laying the blame at the feet of congress.

A lesson in the legislation is due.

Congress sent Bush the legislation when he first got elected and in total BS fashion he approved it then refused to fund it. 2 yrs later congress again sent him the legislation and he vetoed it. To finally get it passed congress had to remove the bottom 50% of veterans and do it as a phase in meaning many Korean and Vietnam era vets will never live to see their benefits. Ridiculous considering these people received their injuries in service of their country. No civilian has to suffer thru an offset of their benefits so why should a soldier?

Honestly you military people need to keep yourselves informed of who is doing what for you on capitol Hill! While Bush was busy fighting CRC and CCRDP guess who was one of its strongest backers? OH NO !!!!!!!! THE EVIL LIBERAL HILLARY CLINTON. Bush said veterans don't deserve the same benefits civilians do, Evil liberal Hillary Clinton said they do. Guess who gets my vote ?

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by steven
THE EVIL LIBERAL HILLARY CLINTON. Bush said veterans don't deserve the same benefits civilians do, Evil liberal Hillary Clinton said they do.

steven, regarding the above, I dont believe it. Could you be more specific and complete, meaning dont take statements out of context?

My understanding is that Bush wants veteran benefits enhanced tremendously but the liberals foul it up by adding nonsense and waste to the equations.

No way do I believe any of our elected officials want to harm or undermine our combat veterans in any way, shape or form.

[therising]

Riven / Grandpabob, and the rest:

I can not fathom how you can not understand the concept of supporting our soldiers, but protesting against a war.

I do realize that the '60's was a weird time. And I do realize that Vietman vets may have been treated like crap when they got home.

But, it's not like that anymore.

You have to realize that it's possible for a person to:

1) Love our country
2) Protest a war that they feel is unjust
3) Support our troops
4) Believe that the basic concept of freedom of speech allows someone to burn a flag.

Believe it or not, it's possible for a rational person to feel all of the above at the same time.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo

Originally posted by Steven
"Honestly you military people need to keep yourselves informed of who is doing what for you on capitol Hill! While Bush was busy fighting CRC and CCRDP guess who was one of its strongest backers? OH NO !!!!!!!! THE EVIL LIBERAL HILLARY CLINTON. Bush said veterans don't deserve the same benefits civilians do, Evil liberal Hillary Clinton said they do. Guess who gets my vote ?"

steven, regarding the above, I dont believe it. Could you be more specific and complete, meaning dont take statements out of context?

My understanding is that Bush wants veteran benefits enhanced tremendously but the liberals foul it up by adding nonsense and waste to the equations.

No way do I believe any of our elected officials want to harm or undermine our combat veterans in any way, shape or form.

You don't believe it??? ROFLMAO. Whenever facts disturb Bush supporters' fantasy world, you deny they're facts.

Here's a quote from checkfact.com about GWB's support for veterans. Now, the original headline of this article was that Kerry claimed Bush was cutting veterans' benefits. That wasn't true. What is true, though, is this:


Some Denied Benefits; A Cut Proposed

In January, 2003 the Veterans Administration announced that -- because the increase in funds couldn't meet the rising demand -- it would start turning away many middle-income applicants applying for new medical benefits.

That led to accusations that Bush was denying benefits to veterans. " We have 400,000 veterans in this country who have been denied access in a whole category to the VA," Kerry declared during a debate Oct. 9, 2003. The VA's estimates of the number who might be denied benefits is much lower, and in fact nobody can say with certainty how many middle-income veterans might have signed up for medical benefits if they had been allowed.

Meanwhile the VA continues to add hundreds of thousands of disabled and lower-income veterans to those already receiving benefits, and has kept paying benefits to all veterans who were already receiving them.

The middle-income veterans who currently aren't being allowed to sign up are those generally with incomes above 80% of the mid-point for their locality. The means test cut-off for benefits ranges up to $40,000 a year in many cities. And any veteran with income less than $25,162 still qualifies no matter where they live. Those figures are for single veterans. The income cut-off is higher for those with a spouse or children.

Veterans groups have called for "mandatory funding" of medical benefits, which would automatically appropriate whatever funds are required to meet demand. Kerry has endorsed mandatory funding, which would allow middle-income veterans with no service-connected disability to resume signing up.

The administration also has proposed to make the VA's prescription drug benefit less generous. Currently many veterans pay $7 for each one-month supply of medication. The administration proposes to increase that to $15, and require a $250 annual fee as well. Congress rejected a similar proposal last year. The proposal wouldn't affect those -- such as veterans with a disability rated at 50% or more -- who currently aren't required to make any co-payments.

And it should be noted that the administration is proposing to increase some benefits, including ending pharmacy co-payments for some very low-income veterans, and paying for emergency-room care for veterans in non-VA hospitals.

Here's an article about increasing the death benefits for combat deaths ... it's from February, 2005 ...


Pentagon to Raise Death Benefits
Plan Could Double, to $500,000, Pay for Combat Victims' Survivors

By Bradley Graham and Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, February 1, 2005; Page A01

Under pressure from Congress, the Pentagon yesterday announced plans to increase death payments by nearly $250,000 to families of U.S. troops killed in combat zones.

The proposed rise, which defense officials are asking be made retroactive to October 2001 for relatives of U.S. troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, would effectively double, to $500,000, the cash that survivors can receive in immediate government payments and life insurance proceeds.

"This increase is a recognition that in certain areas of benefit compensation, the support packages for survivors have not been kept up to date," said Bryan Whitman, a senior Pentagon spokesman.

The initiative follows a mounting effort on Capitol Hill to correct what some lawmakers have decried as paltry compensation at present for survivors of U.S. troops killed in combat. The political concern has reflected growing public distress over the deaths, injuries and long hours of duty being endured by U.S. forces in Iraq.

Both Republicans and Democrats have introduced legislation to raise military death payments, part of a broader effort in Congress to improve conditions for those who serve in the armed forces, their families and veterans.

"What the Pentagon has put forward is a good core approach," said Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.), a leading advocate of greater death payments. "It will serve as a good vehicle now for moving forward."

Under the Pentagon's plan, a one-time, tax-free "death gratuity" paid to survivors of military men and women killed in the line of duty would rise from $12,420 to $100,000. The government also would increase the limit of life insurance coverage for service members by $150,00 to $400,000. The government would pay the premiums on this extra coverage for troops in combat zones.

As of yesterday, 1,415 Americans had died in the Iraq conflict and 156 had died in Afghanistan and other places designated part of the global war on terrorism, according to the Pentagon. The cost of covering higher gratuity payments and extra life insurance settlements to relatives of these troops would be about $280 million in retroactive payments, according to the Defense Department.

"There is no price that you can put on human life, and no amount of money that can compensate for the loss of a loved one," said Whitman, who discussed the Pentagon proposal after it was reported by the Associated Press. "But we can make a family's financial circumstances more bearable."

The plan, which requires congressional approval, is expected to be detailed further today by senior Pentagon authorities in testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee. It will be sent to Congress formally next week as part of the president's 2006 budget request, officials said.

The U.S. government currently provides various forms of compensation to service members' survivors, including specific payments for such categories as burial, housing relocation, education and child support.

But gratuity payments and life insurance coverage are particularly important because they are a source of quick cash at a time when grieving families most appreciate the financial cushion.

The gratuity, introduced in 1908, had grown to only $3,000 by the time of the Persian Gulf War in 1991. It was raised to $6,000 after that war and boosted to $12,000 in 2003. At that time, Congress also made it tax-free -- before that, half was taxable -- and tied future increases to military pay raises.

Still, the payments have been dwarfed by government settlements averaging $2.1 million paid to families of those killed in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

As for life insurance, troops are covered under a group program that charges modest premiums. But some service members have elected to reduce their coverage, sometimes without notifying their spouses or next of kin. The new Pentagon plan would require such notification.

Retired Marine Col. Lee Lange, deputy director of government relations for the Military Officers Association of America, said his group was "pleasantly surprised" by the Pentagon's proposal. The association, which represents 368,000 current and former military officers and surviving spouses, has lobbied for larger survivor benefits. So has the Military Coalition, an umbrella group of 35 military organizations with more than 5 million members.

Lange said his organization and others had to fight hard to double the gratuity payment two years ago.

"We just couldn't get attention on the issue," he recalled.

Donna Gilmore of Stafford, Va., lost her husband, Sgt. Maj. Cornell Gilmore, the senior enlisted man in the Judge Advocate General's Corps, when Iraqi insurgents shot down the helicopter he was riding in on Nov. 7, 2003. She received $250,000 in life insurance, a one-time death gratuity of $12,000, and $1,600 a month in an indemnity and survivor benefits.

"The money doesn't go far, it really doesn't," said Gilmore, who sold a car, cut back her children's living allowances and is working overtime in hopes of staying in the family home.

Her greatest concern, she added, is that the existing level of death benefits will push young military widows and their children into poverty. "They should not have to live in abject poverty on top of the despair," she said in a phone interview.

So, Booster, the death benefit issue first came up in February. When does it finally get increased??? How about the end of June??? So much for "supporting the troops".

Since the Republicans control both houses of Congress and the White House, it ain't the Democrats dragging their feet on this one, whether you believe it or not.


Pentagon Implements Higher Death Benefits

Friday, July 1, 2005
(07-01) 14:05 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) --

The military announced Friday that it will begin providing vastly increased death benefits to the next-of-kin of military personnel killed in combat zones or combat-related training.

Last month, President Bush signed into law the increase in the death benefit from $12,000 to $100,000. The military announced Friday it was implementing the law.

The increase was part of an $82 billion emergency appropriations bill to fund the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, which also included a provision increasing military life insurance payments from $250,000 to $400,000.

The new benefits are available to the relatives of those killed since Oct. 7, 2001, the day the United States began overt combat operations in Afghanistan. It will take several months to find everyone who is eligible for the retroactive benefit, the Pentagon said in a statement.

More than 1,700 U.S. military personnel have died in Iraq, according to the Defense Department. About 150 have died in Afghanistan and neighboring countries.

[Boost Buffalo]

leave it to anti-happy Linda to come up with a nagative article with a negaitve angle...

and show me other countries that comes close to those benefits. America is amazing.

[avet]

Leave it to the extaticly-happy well-off Boost Buffalo, who sits home salavating on his dividend checks from Halliburton.

A company, blatently "ripping off over-taxed taxpayers money", feeding our troops food with EXPIRED expiration dates, that THREATENS any whistleblowers, and is under a blanket of protection by the administration (that profits heavily from also).

Neither he, nor anyone in the administration, or their off spring, has served his country, in ANY way whatsoever, that would put them in "harms" way (except for possibly, asphyxiation by the flag, in a strong, in-opportune, wind - or tripping on their banks walkway to cash their dividends ).

As a stockholder in Halliburton, please tell me, what do you plan to do about those attrocities?
Nothing - cause according to you, "it's all bs", right? But more importantly than protecting our troops, it would hurt YOUR precious POCKETBOOK !

And YOU have the BA**S to call me a "PHONEY" , and "caring" people like Linda NEGATIVE ???

If I EVER get the chance to meet you in person, I HOPE YOU HAVE THE BA**S TO CALL ME A "PHONEY" MY "FACE" !!!! I won't waste my time on unpleasant metaphors here, that's not my style.

I WILL be more than happy to show you my style. And you can take that to the ...."BANK" !

____________________

"America is amazing"
____________________

SO IS YOUR COMPLETE LACK OF CARING FOR OUR TROOPS - CALLING ANYTHING WE SAY TO SUPPORT THEM ......"NEGATIVITY" ! ! ! !

----"TRUELY AMAZING"------

[avet]

show me other countries that comes close to those benefits

OH! THOSE SWEET, SWEET ...BENNIES !!!

"America IS amazing"


"Pentagon alleges Iraq rip-off Cheney's former company may be gouging U.S. for gas"


"Halliburton Goes Offshore to Rip Off Workers"


...the Bush administration and Halliburton have stonewalled this investigation as well, as the company remains open for business.


Halliburton has proven one fact beyond any doubt. If a company is engaged in the war profiteering business, having an American Vice President to cover your ass is priceless.


Halliburton feeds spoiled food to troops in Iraq!


"Protecting the troops is secondary to protecting the oil fields"


Whistleblowers, auditors describe Halliburton's rip-off of US taxpayers


Cheney's Halliburton paves the way for... Corporate America's invasion of Iraq


"Bush Administration Pays Halliburton For Services Never Rendered"


"Government auditors found KBR had overcharged taxpayers for everything from plywood to cleaning military offices."


"Halliburton bills taxpayers $45 per case of soda, $100 per bag of laundry"


"Halliburton is bound so intimately to the defense establishment it might as well be an adjunct to the military. (Mr. Cheney still receives deferred compensation from Halliburton but insists he has no role in the awarding of contracts.) "


"Like Boeing, Halliburton also is accused of ripping off the federal government. In one now popularized instance, the company charged the US government $2.64 cents per gallon of gasoline, despite the fact that the average spot price in the region was less than 75 cents per gallon. "



"Whistleblowers Ignored"

Last summer, 5 whistleblowers, who were past employees of Halliburton, came forward to tell tax payers what was really going on in Iraq. They specifically described how the company was robbing tax payers blind with apparently not a care in the world about discovery or punishment.


...according to the Herald, an insider involved in the deal alleged that the companies involved were approached by a Halliburton employee seeking kickbacks worth up to $3 million during contract negotiations. "We're not talking about a paper bag. This guy was after a percentage of your sales every month," the insider said. "They wanted kickbacks of 3 per cent to 4 per cent, which pushed up the prices because then the sub-contractors would add the price of the kickbacks to their costs."


"A former Army chaplain who later worked for Halliburton's KBR unit today told Congress about KBR's abuse of U.S. taxpayer funds in the middle east. Marie deYoung, who worked as a logistics specialist for KBR said, "There was no regard for spending limits." In a sharp attack on her former employer, she said, "KBR came first, the soldiers came second." She also lamented that, "Soldiers don't really get treated that well in the Army."


"Halliburton profited from deals with Iraq during Saddam Hussein's dictatorship and during Dick Cheney's tenure as CEO. The deals, which began before Halliburton acquired the two subsidiaries responsible for them, were conducted discreetly through several Halliburton subsidiaries in Europe.
The deals with Iraq were legal, but, as Martin Lee of the San Francisco Bay Guardian has put it, "in terms of sheer hypocrisy, Halliburton's relationship with Saddam Hussein is hard to top."


"As investigators from 60 Minutes discovered, Halliburton has used an offshore subsidiary incorporated in the Cayman Islands (where the company has no oil and gas construction or engineering operations) to trade with Iran, a country that the Bush administration has described as part of an "axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world."


On May 18, Halliburton will hold its annual shareholders meeting in downtown Houston. Inside, CEO David Lesar will be congratulating himself on the astonishing $7.1 billion revenue the company has made off its recent work in Iraq.

This number is double what the company made in the war-torn country the previous year; it boosts Halliburton's overall revenue some 25 percent, bringing it to over $20 billion for 2004.
____________________________________

THE "NEGATIVITY" IS ......"AMAZING" !!

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by avet

If I EVER get the chance to meet you in person, I HOPE YOU HAVE THE BA**S TO CALL ME A "PHONEY" MY "FACE" !!!!

yes, you're a phony. you're nothing but a dumb kid still wet behind the ears. Now go tell your mommy you're sorry.