Never Giambra!

[tomac]

Why is it that no one brings up the fact that for eight years Joel Giambra was the chief fiscal officer of the city of Buffalo? It was due to his activities that the city got itself into the financial mess where it is today. In the past three years, Erie County has gone from a solid financial footing under the previous administration to that of a borrower municipality -- again! All because of the financial policies of Joel Giambra.


:mad:

[WNYresident]

I wasn't watching Giambra at that time. Is there anyone that read this post that agrees?

[sethtriggs]

I'm really not sure. I know that Giambra's successor Nanula took a big hit for the city's record budget shortfall. But I thought things were generally steady with Giambra, (steadily decreasing commensurate with the city's population decline.)

-Seth

[Curmudgeon]

yep, he was the first to sound the alarm. remember when he advocated the dissolution of the city as a solution to the budget problem? that's when he held that office. I still think that's a good idea.

[tomac]

Originally posted by sethtriggs
I'm really not sure. I know that Giambra's successor Nanula took a big hit for the city's record budget shortfall. But I thought things were generally steady with Giambra, (steadily decreasing commensurate with the city's population decline.)

-Seth
Nanula was starting to take flak over the city's financial condition within MONTHS of his taking office. Neither he nor anyone else could possibly do that much damage in that little time.
Look now at the County's finances. The Tobacco Money is almost completely gone, frittered away on lots of projects that have nothing to do with health issues (except Joel's political health) which was the original mandate in the settlement that Dennis Gorski set up and accepted.
Joel spent more than a million dollars changing the look of the front of the Rath Building. Why? Was it so one of his contributors could get a pay-back?
Also, why is the FBI investigating one of the Highway Department maintenance facilities for wrongdoing?
Enquiring minds want to know!!
:mad:

[BuffaloRepublic]

dont blame the bean counters...its the decision makers that have caused the problem......by that i mean the people of buffalo who hold elective power over the polititions but refuse to make changes and hold elected officals responsible........the city has been raped for years while the citizens did nothing but vote a straight party line............anyone who has lived in buffalo over the past 20 years is the primary problem....since they allowed this to happen........if an outstanding independent candidate with an outstanding plan to revialize the city.........our brainy citizens would vote their old party line...........if charles manson was running for office as a democrate he would be mayor..................... your typical buffalonian is the stereotype.............only cares about their can of gennie, their wings and the bills.........IM SORRY BUT BUFFALO IS IN A STUPID MESS BECAUSE IT IS INHABITED BY STUPID, NARROW MINDED NITWITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WNYresident]

Mr Buffalo, are you calling me a nitwit? I live in WNY.

[tomac]

Originally posted by BuffaloRepublic
........the city has been raped for years while the citizens did nothing but vote a straight party line............

I agree sir, you are correct! And for eight years as City Comptroller, Joel Giambria was one of the rapists!
As chief fiscal officer of the city of Buffalo, he must take at least some of the blame for the shape that the city is in. Yet he says nothing!
He claims to have become a Republican, yet since he's been there, most of the appointed positions have been city Democrats.

[WNYresident]

We can vote anyone in that swaps parties enless then they follow the jist of that party.

Once again though if he's using democrates that are truely qualified for the positions i would rather see that than a republican not qualified. Bad part is the groups that are dem and rep over the last 20 years are the same hacks.

Why can't they all just leave. Go to some other state with thier union bosses and ruin that area.

THe proof is all around us. They have ran NYS into the ground.

[Allyssa]

anyone who has lived in buffalo over the past 20 years is the primary problem

not me!

maybe we're all nitwits because of the ones educating us, we're the ones in the head of the class rasing our hand to ask a question, share our views and answer the politicians... but do they ever call on us? NO way, Jose!

It's really hard talking to someone that doesn't have a care to listen.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with a bottle of Genny, a bucket of wings and a comfy spot to take in a bills game every now and then.

[buffalofamily]

VOTE HIM OUT

[buffalofamily]

VOTE VOTE VOTE///// VOTE VOTE VOTE///// VOTE VOTE VOTE/////

[Unregistered]

WNYresident


Sure as hell didnt take you long to mention a Union did it?...........
WNYresident Are you in a Union or was your Father?

[WNYresident]

Originally posted by Unregistered
WNYresident


Sure as hell didnt take you long to mention a Union did it?...........
WNYresident Are you in a Union or was your Father?


OH i giggled..

Me in a union. Not quite. Unions are not bad dont take me wrong. I think the civil unions we have in NYS are currupt to a point. I know everyone wants more but you get to the point that the funds are not there.

Now just because healthcare costs are skyrocketing, it's not my issue. I have myself to worry about not the coverage of every NYS/WNY employee.

Every notice how teachers will sacrafice thier own? Instead of all of htem taking a small cut to allow others to work, they let them get laid off. Talk about support of each other. lol

Same with police etc... lay off 20 or more cops instead of all of them taking a little off thier paychecks.

THe money jsut isn't there to give all civil union and politicians upper middle class wages/beni's. Plus a lot of people are struggling so they are not going to cut thier paychecks with higher taxes so the civil servants/politicians get to stay in thier class.

[tomac]

Originally posted by Unregistered
WNYresident


Sure as hell didnt take you long to mention a Union did it?...........
WNYresident Are you in a Union or was your Father?

When did the Unions become the "Bad Guys"? I was a civil servant for 32 years, working for Erie County's Department of Public Works. And yes, I was a Union worker, CSEA, for 30 of those years after we went to a union shop in 1972.
When I started working for the county, I had friends laugh at me for taking that job and making under $5,000 per year (really!). They weren't laughing quite as hard when the stell mills closed, when Chevy and Ford cut back, in fact, they became rather nasty about the fact that I was still working when a lot of them either weren't or were working at crap jobs to pay off the bills that they accrued when they were living the high life.
Anyway, as civil service, I had to take examinations any time I wanted to be considered for a promotion, and pass the exam high enough to beat out the competition. Sometimes I did, sometimes not; that's the way it was.
The last round of exams that I took were for District Highway Maintenance Engineer. All five existing engineers retired and there were six men in the downtown office (myself included) to take the exam and get the promotion. Except Joel didn't see it that way. He didn't want five experienced people doing the work, he wanted five of his friends and supporters in these postitions. One was an engineer from our downtown office, one was a former town highway engineer, one was a plumber, one was a laborer from Local 210 (Joel's old hang-out - so much for being anti-union!), and one was a land developer. This last one made WGRZ's television news for being under investigation for malfeasance.
It was at this time when I finally used my Union representation to sue Joel Giambra for breaking New York State Civil Service law in making these appointments. I forced the exam to be held. The terms of the court ruling indicated that the results were to be "fast-tracked" and gotten back to us ASAP. The test was held in May of last year, but the results were not released until November (normally I would take a test in October and get the results by early January, about 90 days), so this "fast-track" took twice as long as normal. During that time, the State of New York had a retirement incentive, which I took. After I was gone a month, I was notified of the results.
Joel has made numerous comments about "Union workers" and "Civil Servants", mostly in the connotation of us being lazy and inefficient thieves.
I won't say that he destroyed the County Highway Division, other politicians and their contributers started that, but he has tried to put an acceptable face to it.
Think about this; Joel recently called for the overturning of the Police back-pay reimbursment. We won't go into the fact that the money is in place for this and that the Police have worked for FOUR YEARS without seeing this promised money. What I want bring up is the fact that the Police Benevolent Ass'n. had endorsed Giambra's opponent, Dan Ward just the week before.
Giambra is on a Power Trip, trying to become the King of Western New York, appointing people to favored positions and crushing opposition.
I just hope people remember this on Election Day!

[tomac]

Originally posted by Unregistered
WNYresident


Sure as hell didnt take you long to mention a Union did it?...........
WNYresident Are you in a Union or was your Father?

One other thing that came to me, Giambra wants to outsource and privatize the Department of Public Works (actually this was started years ago under Rutkowski, another fine Republican) by going to consultants (defination - Someone who'll borrow your watch to tell you the time, then keep your watch) and private firms to do what had been "County Work".
Case in point. Every so ofter someone hits a deer in Erie County. It happens. From 1997 until 2001, county forces from the Maintenance Districts removed these carcases from the road and disposed of them. Total cost to the taxpayer was $1250.00 for District One (northernmost district running from Newstead to Grand Island, inclusive). In 2002, it was decided that "that work is too nasty for OUR people to do" and it was privatized. The contract was written up so only one company could qualify. In 2002, that company charged Erie County taxpayers (that's you and me, pal) about $25,000. That's one District out of five.
Other jobs have been let [I]without contracts , which is against the law.
Now after the folks who had been doing this work cheaply are gone, is it possible that these companies might decide to raise their rates a tad, say about 500%? Who's going to stop them? And if you don't want this to happen at that time, who will DO the work?
You can support YOUR civil service now or watch this come down.
Oh, if you're wondering that there might be something in it for you at that point, be assured that these companies doing the work will be sure to pay their employees at least minimum wage.
If you don't like it, look at the job market, there'll be at least ten folks ready and eager to take your place in line.

[BuffaloRepublic]

I think everyone should support the Civil Service Unions...the sooner the City collapses the sooner things will change....it would be great ....we could have civil service people serving the remaining residents who would all be civil service people.....we could get the population down to about 1000............................union heaven........no one left but union people...........yep lets all join a union and finish off the city and start over......................Americans never are up to doing much until there is no alternative...then look out

So lets all look for the union label....until buffalo becomes a fable!!!

[WNYresident]

Didn't the USSR fall seieng everyone was paid for by the goverment?

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Didn't the USSR fall seieng everyone was paid for by the goverment?

Do you people actually think that after Civil Service has been done away with that your streets will be plowed or repaved as cheaply as they are now?
Trust me when I tell you that when these politicians get their cronies into position to "take care of business" you will:
1) see prices spiral so that
2) taxes go up to pay for projects or
3) projects do NOT get done. [kind of like where the city of Buffalo is at this stage of the game]

Actually I really don't care, because I will be moving myself. BuffaloRepublic(an) and WNYresident can pay to keep Joel's cronies and supporters fat and happy.

Think of me when you get stuck in a snowdrift or when you lose your exhaust system on the County's fine road system. But think pleasant thoughts.

[WNYresident]

naw, won't happen. A lot of these cronies are going to be purged from the system and hopefully the rest of the political losers will get voted out. These are not very bright people, a lot are just parisites in the system. There's also a lot of good politicians that can't get thier agenda done seeing we have a lot of self serving politicians elected.

It will get to a point where they are not going to have the cash in the bank to cover thier paychecks. Eitherway they are going to go. The question now is how fast can we purge them. The sooner the better I guess.

The buffalo news hasn't seemed to help the region much and hopefully one of the local TV stations will get on the ball to start exposing how stupid a lot of the local leaders are.

I mean just look around WNY, it ain't working well. I'm happy with what i'm earning in WNY but I know a lot of people that are having a hard time in business. I know i'm getting tired of the rising cost for utilities, insurance and healthcare. If it wasnt for the tax burden and some other issues there would be more jobs in NYS. Politicians don't care seeing they just keep taking thier checks. Politicians raise taxes, no issue, they will just raise thier pay. That attitude has to stop seeing it's harmful to NYS as a whole.

I also know there's a lot of hard working good people in WNY.. You can see it in all the volunteers that work at the non profits in WNY. It's odd though, you see 1 non profit volunteer doing the work of 3 people, and in some civil union departments you see 3 people doing the job of one. Now if you noticed I said some, there are also some very very good town/city/county employees also.

It's just the time we need to change how things are done. We have no choice.

I can bale out of WNY at anytime I would like to. I just happend to be "made in buffalo" and would perfer to stay here. The moment i saw hillary get elected who was made in arizona or where ever, I knew we have issues here. Oh is she still drawing a check while selling her book?

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
naw, won't happen. A lot of these cronies are going to be purged from the system and hopefully the rest of the political losers will get voted out. These are not very bright people, a lot are just parisites in the system. There's also a lot of good politicians that can't get thier agenda done seeing we have a lot of self serving politicians elected.

Sorry, it's already happening. When I started in the Highway Division, there were around 75 men and women working there under the supervision of 3 licensed eningeers. We would survey a road, do our own design work, set up the contracts and go out and oversee the construction project. In those days we rebuilt some twenty to twenty-five miles of road per year, and rehabilitated over 400 miles (usually blacktop overlay, sometimes sight-distance correction) as well.
Now there are 6 men up, there is little to no reconstruction, and the politicians BRAG if they overlay 100 miles of road surface. And check out some of the roads that have had this "band-aid" fix. They tend to start breaking up within three years.
These "not very bright" people are setting up contracts for their friends, sidestepping the bidding process and generally gouging the taxpayer trough.
Fer'instance, let's say you wanted to fix your porch. I come along and tell you that I'll do a class job and only charge you 10% of the cost of the porch itself. Sounds good, right? What will you do when I design and build a porch that will be at least three times the value of your house? That's what the private design consultants have been doing since the days of Rutkowski. And we've been paying for it.
Oh, and if their designs were reworked in the Highway Office (as usually happened) they STILL got their quoted price. Tell me again that there were no sweetheart deals going on here. Tell me again that these people weren't very bright.
Certain politicians put some of these contractors in business and kept them there for years, usually until one side or the other finally retired out. These people may not be the brightest bulbs on the tree, but they're doing a fine job cleaning out your wallet. And you don't even realize it.

It will get to a point where they are not going to have the cash in the bank to cover thier paychecks. Eitherway they are going to go. The question now is how fast can we purge them. The sooner the better I guess.

They will not go until there is not a drop of blood left to be sucked out. Unless the taxpayers wake up and they are shown the door.

The buffalo news hasn't seemed to help the region much and hopefully one of the local TV stations will get on the ball to start exposing how stupid a lot of the local leaders are.

The Buffalo News is in Joel's back pocket along with WBEN radio and most of the television stations. When was the last time you saw an article openly critical about the County Government anywhere?

I mean just look around WNY, it ain't working well. I'm happy with what i'm earning in WNY but I know a lot of people that are having a hard time in business. I know i'm getting tired of the rising cost for utilities, insurance and healthcare. If it wasnt for the tax burden and some other issues there would be more jobs in NYS. Politicians don't care seeing they just keep taking thier checks. Politicians raise taxes, no issue, they will just raise thier pay. That attitude has to stop seeing it's harmful to NYS as a whole.
I also know there's a lot of hard working good people in WNY.. You can see it in all the volunteers that work at the non profits in WNY. It's odd though, you see 1 non profit volunteer doing the work of 3 people, and in some civil union departments you see 3 people doing the job of one. Now if you noticed I said some, there are also some very very good town/city/county employees also.
It's just the time we need to change how things are done. We have no choice.
I can bale out of WNY at anytime I would like to. I just happend to be "made in buffalo" and would perfer to stay here. The moment i saw hillary get elected who was made in arizona or where ever, I knew we have issues here. Oh is she still drawing a check while selling her book? [/QUOTE]

What does Hilary have to do with County Government? I'm talking about crooked local politicians, crooked Federal politicians is a different thread.

[BuffaloRepublic]

cowards always run away from the truth

[WNYresident]

Oh i'm sorry, the Hillary comment ment that it starts from the top down. You lead by example. How do you tell the people below you not to run a business while you are working when your prancing around trying to sell a book.

Giambra getting a $50,000 truck, well everyone other politician who's ego is as large as his believe they should steal the money from a tax payer for a truck also.

I think Joe Hajduk mentioned there is a employee in cheektowaga conducting his own business and business for Dennis while collecting a paycheck. Now how does that person tell the employees under neath him not to do the same thing when he's doing it himself?

Plus if you haven't forgotten, there hasn't been a speakupwny.com in the mix until 2 months ago. :)

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Oh i'm sorry, the Hillary comment ment that it starts from the top down. You lead by example. How do you tell the people below you not to run a business while you are working when your prancing around trying to sell a book.

Ohh, I see! Kind of like Newt Gingrich!;)

[WNYresident]

Newt Gingrich! ? how does that apply?

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Newt Gingrich! ? how does that apply?

Newt wrote a book [not very good, I read it] and took it around the country and touted it. Rush and the dittoheads lauded him for being an author. Still it did sell some two million copies [Ms. Clinton's sold some eight million - not that her book is any better]. He didn't seem to think that there was anything wrong with selling his book. He wasn't the first; she won't be the last.
Joel Giambra, to my knowledge, hasn't written a book yet.

[WNYresident]

tomac:

Certain politicians put some of these contractors in business and kept them there for years, usually until one side or the other finally retired out. These people may not be the brightest bulbs on the tree, but they're doing a fine job cleaning out your wallet. And you don't even realize it.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I have realized it. That's why this site is started. You need to be smart to exist in this enviroment they made.

So now it's time to apply some of these smarts to how things are going to get done around here. Besides me, I think there are quite a few residents that are not happy with the way things are. We just need to open thier eyes to how things are happening in WNY. Once we show them how we are getting boned we need to get them to the poles. THey need to realize what WNY could be. I dont mean grow.. i mean lower cost of doing business and let the businesses grow, not the goverment.

:)

[WNYresident]

Tomac:

They will not go until there is not a drop of blood left to be sucked out. Unless the taxpayers wake up and they are shown the door.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Isn't the DA supposed to police them somewhat? Who acutally monitors the ethics of what is going on with our tax money?

[WNYresident]

tomac:

The Buffalo News is in Joel's back pocket along with WBEN radio and most of the television stations. When was the last time you saw an article openly critical about the County Government anywhere?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I suppose thats why we are here :) If TV and the news are profit driven only then thier revenue stream must stop. I always wondered how much lottery pays them for ALL those ads. Thhose ads are not cheap. I can see thier ads being pulled if the wrong things are written about. I dont care who is who, you spend our money without waste. We work to hard for the money so the county, state, and WNY will have to spot spending it foolishly.

But you know we never as residents told them how we expect them to be. It's time now to tell them what we expect out of out goverment leaders and workers if they expect to be paid what they are. We really never have done that. They are always telling us how things are going to be. Well, as i said before, just look around you, you see what WNY is like.

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Tomac:

They will not go until there is not a drop of blood left to be sucked out. Unless the taxpayers wake up and they are shown the door.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Isn't the DA supposed to police them somewhat? Who acutally monitors the ethics of what is going on with our tax money?

Remember Frank Clark is an elected official of the same party as Giambra. What happened to that investigation of the Aurora Maintenance Barn that was "supposted to be completed in a couple more days" a week ago last Friday.
Why doesn't somebody look into the possible comflict of interest as the County Sheriff bought a home from the person being investigated.
I think the odds of anything substantial coming out of this investigation are negligable.
Years ago, the FBI was approached because of the cozy relationship between a former Public Works Commissioner and a certain contractor, always getting jobs while doing sub-standard work, always having "cost overruns" paid for with no questions asked, etc. The FBI stated flatly that if there was no paper trail, they couldn't do a thing.
If they're smart, and these people are that, they can sidestep for years.

[Anonymous1Music]

This scheister needs the boot like nobody's business.
I was ready to show him the door as soon as he returned
from Sloan-Kettering, but felt sorry for the guy and gave
him a pass 'til he fully recovered. Turns out his sickness
is upstairs, after all! I didn't think i could want to see a
County Executive unemployed so quickly, so soon after
getting rid of Gorski. Boy, was I wrong! And what's this
loser got going for himself, a community college
degree!?! Jeez! What were we thinking?!?

[Curmudgeon]

"king joel"???

You must be a civil service employee. Giambra is the bogeyman of civil service employees.

"Dan Ward will save us! He's our guy - we paid for him!!!"

thanks for tipping your hand.....

[tomac]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
"king joel"???

You must be a civil service employee. Giambra is the bogeyman of civil service employees.

"Dan Ward will save us! He's our guy - we paid for him!!!"

thanks for tipping your hand.....

Okay, you've tipped YOUR hand. You must represent the private interests that King Joel has been spoon feeding since he got in. I AM a former employee for the Department of Public Works, Highway Division (you know, the one whose Deputy Commissioner was just dumped for malfeasance).
Since Joel got in when the voters fired Gorski (republicans blew it with that election - hell I could have been elected given political backing!), his representative Commissioners and Deputy Commissioners have been allowing no-bid contracts for their friends and associates, one appointee has been buying supplies for his private business and having YOU (and the rest of the taxpayers) pick up the tab. And because the County was paying for the purchases, there was NO sale Tax involved. When the items were shipped to the maintenance facility, they were immediately transferred to his job-site for use by his company.
Were there dishonest Civil Servants? Of course, no one is perfect and you do get a few "bad apples", but look at the record; Joel has had two Deputy Commissioners removed, one for malfeasance and one for Sexual Harrassment and at least one appointee removed who is now under investigation for Grand Theft. If a person is known by the company he keeps, what does that say for Br'er Joel?
As I stated before, Joel was City Comptroller for two terms before becoming County Executive (after a failed attempt to become Mayor) and since that time he has been pissing away the County Budget like a sailor whose been at sea for a year. Moneys that Gorski had stockpiled were freely tossed to political contributers. Purchases were made without going through the bid process and whenever something came back to bite Joel in the ass, he'd blame the unions, 9-11, the Blackout or whatever excuse was handy. Can Dan Ward turn the County around? I don't know, its finances are extremely screwed up, more so than any outsider realises.
As to the "King Joel" moniker, that is because Joel seems to be trying to get a lot of unified support. He got Swanik and D'Benidetti to give him needed leverage to rubber stamp his agenda, you notice that anyone who doesn't back him has their constituants frozen out of needed work like Fronczyk and the Broadway Market.
Joel isn't the frist politician to attack the Civil Service System, its been done before. But think about this; I could design a roadway (been there, done that) and have my plans reviewed by my boss, a licensed Professional Engineer with a cost to you, the taxpayer for say $100,000. Or we could (and do) send the project to Cannon Associates (or any of a dozen design firms) and have them do the work. It'll come back identical in all things except pricetag. Theirs will cost you in excess of $750,000. If you wants to spend that much, feel free to go ahead, I don't - I'm (as they say) on a fixed inbcome.
"In the old days" when I was much younger, we had 75 or so engineers in our office. with three licensed Professional Engineers overseeing our work. We would get some twenty-five miles of highway reconstruction completed per year, as well as two or three bridge projects, and we, through our maintenance facilities, would overlay as much as three hundred miles of roadway per year. Nowadays, because we ship out ALL of our design work (you don't get much work done with a staff of 5) the most we can do is a mile or two, a couple of smaller culvert jobs (unless a bridge is in danger of collapsing) and we've contracted the overlay out to private firms so we can only afford to do about eighty miles or so.
Think about this when you say that Joel is fighting for your wallet. He is, but its because he (and his handlers) want the contents.
I'll say this also. Back in 1970 when I first started, people like you who were working at Chevy, Ford, Republic Steel and Bethlehem launghed at me for working at a job that paid little ($4,940 per year to start). When those plants downsized or shur down althgether, I was criticized by those same people for being a "taxeater" while they had to scramble to find a new job (that may have only paid them HALF of what they were making previously). Gee, I'm sorry. Now they are gleeful that the "taxeaters' jobs" have been outsourced. When you people wake up and realize how much it is costing you and that's one of the reasons our kids are moving out of the area, maybe you'll realize what you have allowed these politicians to do to you.
Until then, WAKE UP ERIE COUNTY!!!!

[Curmudgeon]

<<<You must represent the private interests that King Joel has been spoon feeding since he got in.>>>
I represent a private interest all right - it's called "myself" - that's it.

I'm not going to pretend like I know all about the details about how Giambra runs his operation. I don't really care whos toes he steps on. All I want to see is a transfer of power away from the "civil service union/dem party/benefit recipient" cartel that is responsible for the higest taxation and most unfriendly business climate in the nation today.

If your (former) department is able to perform work for a lesser amount than a private entity, your department should be able to participate in the bidding process job-by-job. Every civil engineering job should be "priced" internally as part of the bid process, and if it can be done cheaper in-house, reject the outside bids. Simple enough...

Call me discriminatory - I don't think degreed professional engineers are really the problem here. Perhaps people like yourself, who are able to command comparable salaries in the private sector, should "divorce" yourselves from the agenda of the overpaid garbagemen, police, etc. who are the real problem. Labor solidarity really isn't in your (if your were still working) best interests in this climate.

<<<...When those plants downsized or shur down althgether...>>>
Those plants left because of the high taxation and union demands. The "Taxeaters" killed the golden goose.

<<<Can Dan Ward turn the County around? I don't know, its finances are extremely screwed up, more so than any outsider realises.>>>
No. His job is to maintain the status-quo as long as possible until the system implodes.

In a nutshell, the local govt system consumes too much relative to other regions in the US (local Gross Domestic Product) and all the producers (businesses, ambitious people) are leaving. You are experiencing a "brain drain" like East Germany did in the 50's. Their solution was to build the berlin wall to stop their producers from leaving. That option is not available to you. What dirty deeds Giambra is allegedly doing are trivial when one looks at the big picture.

[tomac]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
<<<You must represent the private interests that King Joel has been spoon feeding since he got in.>>>
I represent a private interest all right - it's called "myself" - that's it.
I'm not going to pretend like I know all about the details about how Giambra runs his operation. I don't really care whos toes he steps on. All I want to see is a transfer of power away from the "civil service union/dem party/benefit recipient" cartel that is responsible for the higest taxation and most unfriendly business climate in the nation today.

There is NO "civil service union/dem party/benefit recipient". The biggest reason that our taxes are so high is because of the "Cadillac-style" welfare system that was put in place during the days of Nelson Rockefeller (remember hime? He was a Republican!) and maintained by politicians today who are too gutless to revise it and tell the loafers to get a job or get the hell out of town. Civil Service Unions aren't like the UAW or the teamsters, we don't have the right to go on strike when we get crapped on by management. And when you say "dem party" aren't you really talking about liberal politicians? Check out the voting records of some of your Republicians before you slam the other side of the aisle. It was Patacki that gave free health benefits to welfare recipients and tuition breaks to illegal aliens

If your (former) department is able to perform work for a lesser amount than a private entity, your department should be able to participate in the bidding process job-by-job. Every civil engineering job should be "priced" internally as part of the bid process, and if it can be done cheaper in-house, reject the outside bids. Simple enough... [/QUOTE]

Do you honestly know WHAT you are talking about? If you have a staff of people doing a job, WHY would you go looking for outside competition that would only cost more? The answer in this case is that the outside competition has paid large dollars to the politicians to be given those jobs and our office was ordered to comply.

Call me discriminatory - I don't think degreed professional engineers are really the problem here. Perhaps people like yourself, who are able to command comparable salaries in the private sector, should "divorce" yourselves from the agenda of the overpaid garbagemen, police, etc. who are the real problem. Labor solidarity really isn't in your (if your were still working) best interests in this climate. [/QUOTE]

That's true, but those people working in the private sector aren't making but a small fraction of what their companies get for doing these jobs. $10.00 - $12.00/hour while the bosses get $1,000,000s; you're right, why would we need labor solidarity?

<<<...When those plants downsized or shur down althgether...>>>
Those plants left because of the high taxation and union demands. The "Taxeaters" killed the golden goose. [/QUOTE]

Damn straight! We agree on that 100% But you have GOT to start realizing that the "taxeaters" in this case are the welfare loafers. I mean, why in God's name should ANY of them get jobs when they can make as much doing NOTHING?
Civil Service employees had NOTHING to do with killing the "Golden Goose", we pay taxes just like you do. If the is a "Cartel" like you mentioned before it is the "Professional Welfare Recipients (multi-generational)/Gutless politicians/liberal eggheads (who thinks that anybody should be supported in the manner, with somebody else's money)

<<<Can Dan Ward turn the County around? I don't know, its finances are extremely screwed up, more so than any outsider realises.>>>
No. His job is to maintain the status-quo as long as possible until the system implodes. [/QUOTE]

That is unfortunately true. But its closer to implosion than you (or most any taxpayer) realizes. I wish Ward luck -- he'll need it.

In a nutshell, the local govt system consumes too much relative to other regions in the US (local Gross Domestic Product) and all the producers (businesses, ambitious people) are leaving. You are experiencing a "brain drain" like East Germany did in the 50's. Their solution was to build the berlin wall to stop their producers from leaving. That option is not available to you. What dirty deeds Giambra is allegedly doing are trivial when one looks at the big picture. [/QUOTE]

Tell you what, seeing that you'll be the last one here, please turn the lights out when you finally leave. I'll be gone in another year or so. I'm currently looking for a place with a lower cost of living and easier property taxes. Know what? I am currently having an emparrasment of riches; I have too many choices.
Know what happened in Pennsylvania when they put in residency requirements for welfare recipients? Their taxes went DOWN by 40% and most (about 80% according to the Buffalo News article I have from 1978) moved to New York State. Guess what, NONE of these folks went to work for Civil Service!
Ohh, those "dirty deeds Giambra is allegedly doing" amounts to plundering over $40,000,000 in the tobacco funds and giving it to his political friends. Check out his "kitchen cabinet" sometime, those folks could care less if you and yours make it. They take care of themselves.

You know, this is getting boring. I am out of here. Like I said before, turn the lights out when you finally leave, there won't be anyone left.

[WNYresident]

Tomac:

Nope you can't go just yet. See you know how hte system works and I learned more from this one post from you compared to many others.

You could b an excellent team leader on the non-efficent workings of the county departments.

Please don't leave just yet. :)

[Curmudgeon]

<<<we don't have the right to go on strike when we get crapped on by management. >>>
Well then, QUIT. You're an engineer - you can get work elsewhere. You were not born to be in civil service all your life.


<<<There is NO "civil service union/dem party/benefit recipient". ...bla bla bla...>>>>
<<<Civil Service employees had NOTHING to do with killing the "Golden Goose">>>
Ahhh, yes there is. OVER HALF OF THE CITY BUDGET GOES TO PAY POLICE/FIRE SALARIES ALONE!
Now when things get tight you stick the knife in the backs of your fellow "cartel" members - the welfare people who you were supposed to "service" with bloated bureauracracies like HUD and other social service govt organizations that provided SO MANY jobs to your civil service union breathern..... Why wern't you bitching about them 5 years ago?


<<<I'll be gone in another year or so. I'm currently looking for a place with a lower cost of living and easier property taxes. >>>

Well played! You've collected a sweet deal as a municipal employee during your career and now you're going to collect your "sweetheart deal" retirement package that your union extorted out of me, the taxpayer. Now you have to balls to complain about "high taxes and cost of living". All that "high cost" is going to pay for YOUR retirement! You've been living high on the hog and now you're leaving your (end everyone elses) kids to foot the bill. I hope everyone else leaves as well and the number of taxpayers dwindles to such a small amount that the state has no choice but to cut pension payments to "those poor old retired civil servants who now live in Boca Raton".

Your self-rightiousness makes me want to puke.

Thanks for doing your part to screw over the younger generation.

[tomac]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
<<<we don't have the right to go on strike when we get crapped on by management. >>>
Well then, QUIT. You're an engineer - you can get work elsewhere. You were not born to be in civil service all your life.

I DID quit, via retirement. 8-P

<<<There is NO "civil service union/dem party/benefit recipient". ...bla bla bla...>>>>
<<<Civil Service employees had NOTHING to do with killing the "Golden Goose">>>
Ahhh, yes there is. OVER HALF OF THE CITY BUDGET GOES TO PAY POLICE/FIRE SALARIES ALONE!

Do you want to live anywhere near the city of Buffalo with no police or fire protection? I don't know if you're brave or just plain stupid!

Now when things get tight you stick the knife in the backs of your fellow "cartel" members - the welfare people who you were supposed to "service" with bloated bureauracracies like HUD and other social service govt organizations that provided SO MANY jobs to your civil service union breathern..... Why wern't you bitching about them 5 years ago?

You obviously haven't been paying attention, Civil Service groups among others have been warning the taxpayers about welfare abuse for years. Remember a few years ago when Mario Cuomo said in a speech how there was no such thing as multigenerational welfare in New York State? Why do you think he said that? Maybe because some watchdog group claimed that there was?


<<<I'll be gone in another year or so. I'm currently looking for a place with a lower cost of living and easier property taxes. >>>

Well played! You've collected a sweet deal as a municipal employee during your career and now you're going to collect your "sweetheart deal" retirement package that your union extorted out of me, the taxpayer. Now you have to balls to complain about "high taxes and cost of living". All that "high cost" is going to pay for YOUR retirement! You've been living high on the hog and now you're leaving your (end everyone elses) kids to foot the bill. I hope everyone else leaves as well and the number of taxpayers dwindles to such a small amount that the state has no choice but to cut pension payments to "those poor old retired civil servants who now live in Boca Raton".

Where did you work? If you haven't provided for your retirement why is that my fault? I worked for over thirty years at the same job for less pay than I could have gotten elsewhere (admittedly) but I stayed for the job security and the retirement benefits. I EARNED that retirement money and the last time that I looked, I didn't see ANY restriction as to where I would be allowed to live in these United States (except maybe Area 51), so why shouldn't I move some place where my fixed income goes a little further?

Your self-rightiousness makes me want to puke.

And your ignorance and chauvenism against someone other than yourself knowing what's going on leave me baffled. Howw do you make it through the day? Or do you just sit back and order another beer? That must be it; it isn't me that makes you want to puke, you've had too many beers. Go have another one.

Thanks for doing your part to screw over the younger generation.

I put two kids through college with no help from you or yours, how did I screw over the younger generation? If you want to see someone who's screwing over the younger generation, look at a picture of just about any politician; they're the ones who take your money. You bought a war in Iraq, you've been keeping welfare recipients living in luxury for decades, you've been paying for large corporations to move their jobs to Mexico, South America and Asia and you've footed the bill for the politicians' retirement packages and health benefits (check into it some time to see just WHAT they've voted for themselves while deciding that there wasn't anything wrong with YOUR Social Security).
You keep falling for their strawman when they tell you that its all the union's fault. If it wasn't for the unions, you'd be working for $3.00/hour like they do in Mexico.

[WNYresident]

Good one Tomac

Curm, see yoru pushing it to the extreme to a point. Tomac isn't the part of the problem.. he was just in the begining when it started to get out of hand. It's the limits we are setting now that are going to drive us into the ground. If we didn't hireout consultants and stuff people like tomac salary etc wouldn't even phase us.

Politicians are now screwing us. They are screwing us to a point that it's criminal. Just look at what hte mayor of buffalo takes, hillary, are state senators. A lot of these people wouldn't be making the type of cash they make without the help of thier friends in goverment.

I might be wrong but very few unconnected successful business people become politicians. They are busy doing thier own thing and the ones that are very successful normally help out with community issues in thier own ways. They also complain about politicians.

Curm read what tomac is stating before you try to rip him a new butt hole. :)

[Curmudgeon]

Tomac isn't the part of the problem..

Tomac, You've disclosed that you are an engineer so I'm going to make the assumption that you are a rational and analytical person in my following diatribe:
I take great offense to the fact that you don’t understand why someone of my generation takes exception to your retirement compensation terms.

I worked for over thirty years at the same job for less pay than I could have gotten elsewhere (admittedly) but I stayed for the job security and the retirement benefits

how did I screw over the younger generation?

You yourself admit that you took a civil service job knowing full well that it paid below market-value wages. The reasons why you did this is a perception that you had better job security than your private sector peers (a harmless reasonable assumption) AND “The retirement benefits”. You KNEW that you would get a platinum retirement plan out of the county if you spent your career working there. In effect, you chose to DEFER a portion of your market-value salary in return for greater reward in your retirement years.
What really happened was the taxpayers of your generation conspired to finance a portion of your true market-value salary through the retirement system, and when the bill came due (when YOU retired), the people of my generation were stuck making up the unpaid part of your salary in spades…
If you had made the SAME as your private sector counterparts, I could dismiss your platinum retirement package as stupidity on the part of the leaders of that generation. That you freely admit that you took that deal in return for less-than-market-value wages just proves that a fraud on a massive scale was perpetrated by your generation on the people of mine.
My mother-in-law recently retired from the state. She is 62 and will receive 90% of her salary (~$50,000) for the remainder of her natural life. Being that she is in good health, I can reasonably assume she will live to about 90. She will draw significantly more in retirement pay than SHE EVER MADE AS AN EMPLOYEE!
Thomas Jefferson wrote extensively on the evils of intergenerational debt. This is exactly what is occurring here. It is one thing to finance construction of a “long-term durable good” like the thruway or the verrizano bridge with long term bonds because that resource will be used by many generations and it is fair to distribute the cost as such. My generation has gained nothing by having to pay a portion of your salary. You will never calculate a load or estimate storm runoff flow again, but the hidden cost is still there, paid for my me and my peers every time you get your check in the mail.
One of the reasons why the control board was instantiated was that the financial forecast showed a ballooning health/pension benefits cost in the next few years. This fixed expense adds cost (but no benefit) to the declining tax revenue stream. This in turn drives away businesses and ambitious young people who seek relief from this cost and they leave the state. This results in a smaller and smaller “producer pool” feeding an ever growing “consumer pool” (You and your peers). There could very well be a financial meltdown, like too many amps flowing through a wire.
Now can you see why I’m a little ticked off at the people of your generation? People my age feel we’ve been had. I’d like to see the US go through a period of hyperinflation just so that the value of my debt to you gets reduced (a real possibility in the future). When I was in the womb, I had no control over the fact that you were lending money to my mother and I would have to pay the bill at such an outrageous interest rate.

And your ignorance and chauvenism against someone other than yourself knowing what's going on leave me baffled.
I think you need to re-examine your above statement. You can call me many things, but ignorant isn’t one of them. I think you have already come to that conclusion…

[Unregistered]

Looks like Crumb, the angry young person who couldn't get a civil service job has met his match. Nice one tomac.

[Curmudgeon]

Looks like Crumb, the angry young person who couldn't get a civil service job has met his match. Nice one tomac.

Ahh, I've never applied for a civil service job and you are a complete idiot. Met my match? Huh?

[tomac]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Tomac isn't the part of the problem..

Tomac, You've disclosed that you are an engineer so I'm going to make the assumption that you are a rational and analytical person in my following diatribe:
I take great offense to the fact that you don’t understand why someone of my generation takes exception to your retirement compensation terms.

I worked for over thirty years at the same job for less pay than I could have gotten elsewhere (admittedly) but I stayed for the job security and the retirement benefits, so how did I screw over the younger generation?

You yourself admit that you took a civil service job knowing full well that it paid below market-value wages. The reasons why you did this is a perception that you had better job security than your private sector peers (a harmless reasonable assumption) AND “The retirement benefits”. You KNEW that you would get a platinum retirement plan out of the county if you spent your career working there.

Platimum? No Good maybe, never Platinum.

In effect, you chose to DEFER a portion of your market-value salary in return for greater reward in your retirement years.

That is exactly what we (all of us civil servants) did. A portion of our pay was held by the New York State Retirement, under the supervision of the State Comptroller (Ned Regan and then Carl McCall) and invested for us like a 401k. Seeing as they had the money of thousands of employees, they were able to turn a very large profit on the principal.

What really happened was the taxpayers of your generation conspired to finance a portion of your true market-value salary through the retirement system, and when the bill came due (when YOU retired), the people of my generation were stuck making up the unpaid part of your salary in spades…

You have just proved that you don't know what you're talking about. My pension comes from investments made for me by the State Comptroller, NOT from the General Fund (i.e. your tax dollar$) In fact the State Legislature has been trying to get controll of the Retirement fund for years so they can piuss it away on welfare and pork for their pals. The various Comptrollers have so far successfully fought them off.

If you had made the SAME as your private sector counterparts, I could dismiss your platinum retirement package as stupidity on the part of the leaders of that generation. That you freely admit that you took that deal in return for less-than-market-value wages just proves that a fraud on a massive scale was perpetrated by your generation on the people of mine.
My mother-in-law recently retired from the state. She is 62 and will receive 90% of her salary (~$50,000) for the remainder of her natural life. Being that she is in good health, I can reasonably assume she will live to about 90. She will draw significantly more in retirement pay than SHE EVER MADE AS AN EMPLOYEE!

And you sound more bitter about it than anything else.

Thomas Jefferson wrote extensively on the evils of intergenerational debt. This is exactly what is occurring here.

I don't think that he was talking about retirement packages. In jis day, you'd be lucky to live to age 45.

It is one thing to finance construction of a “long-term durable good” like the thruway or the verrizano bridge with long term bonds because that resource will be used by many generations and it is fair to distribute the cost as such. My generation has gained nothing by having to pay a portion of your salary. You will never calculate a load or estimate storm runoff flow again, but the hidden cost is still there, paid for my me and my peers every time you get your check in the mail.

Who told you the you have to pay my retirement? My Social Security maybe (if its still there when I hit 62) just like I had to cover the Social Security of folks who retired before I did, but my Retirement package was invested by ME, MYSELF and NO ONE ELSE.

One of the reasons why the control board was instantiated was that the financial forecast showed a ballooning health/pension benefits cost in the next few years. This fixed expense adds cost (but no benefit) to the declining tax revenue stream. This in turn drives away businesses and ambitious young people who seek relief from this cost and they leave the state. This results in a smaller and smaller “producer pool” feeding an ever growing “consumer pool” (You and your peers). There could very well be a financial meltdown, like too many amps flowing through a wire.

That is the City; they have a different package than I did. fr'instance they have FULL Health Care benefits; I get somewhat less than half (half to start and I pick up ALL future increases [did you ever see health costs go down?]) Also Jimmy Griffon, before he l;eft his mayor's office, gave the city a going-away present -- he allowed the garbage men to work half-days for a full day's wages. Get your municipalities straight.

Now can you see why I’m a little ticked off at the people of your generation? People my age feel we’ve been had. I’d like to see the US go through a period of hyperinflation just so that the value of my debt to you gets reduced (a real possibility in the future).

That is real intelligent, when that happens, you get to watch your family starve, or become a migrant worker. My dad lived through the Depression, he told me many times how rought it was. I had friends that came here from Germany in the 1920s (a period of hyperinflation that you seem to want). That period of worthless money helped give rise to Adolf Hitler. Care to have someone like him telling you how to live? I sure as hell do NOT.

When I was in the womb, I had no control over the fact that you were lending money to my mother and I would have to pay the bill at such an outrageous interest rate.
And your ignorance and chauvenism against someone other than yourself knowing what's going on leave me baffled.
I think you need to re-examine your above statement. You can call me many things, but ignorant isn’t one of them. I think you have already come to that conclusion… [/B]

Wake up and smell the coffee, pal. Your politicians are screwing you to the wall and telling you that its my fault. All I ever did was work for a living and put two kids through college in the process. Those kids had to move out of state to make a living wage. I will follow them soon enough. At that time you will still be getting screwed to the wall and still be told that its still all my fault.
Maybe when Joel and Patacki and the rest have wrung the last dollar out of your wallet, you'll finally wake up.
Maybe when your house is on fire and there's no firemen....
Maybe when there's someone breaking into your house and there's no cop....
Maybe when you're in snow up to your ******* and the roads aren't plowed...
Maybe then you'll wake up.

[Unregistered]

Tomac = 2
Crumb = 0


Hey tomac, check out www.realtor. com for calculators to determine cost of living, crime, etc before you move. Whats interesting is WNY is a cheaper place to live than many others.

[WNYresident]

Curm,

Tomac made valid points.. Remember argueing with him it mute seeing he's alredy out of the system. The issue at hand is what we have going on now.

He made some very realistic points that i hope you took notes on. They are spending our money through thier "Friends" and milking it all the way down hte line.

They don't look at it that way seeing they have been doing it for so long. It's basicily legalized organized crime.

When you stop bidding on projects, when you start handing over insanely hi consulting fees to have yoru friends tell you how to do your jobs, and when you have payoffs like the "olma" case it's apparent we need changes.

Curm, once again that's why I felt this board had to be started. We need people like tomac that knows how it was 25 years ago and how it changed for the worse. We need the honest people that were in the system to point out the not so honest procedures going on today.

Do we really need a over priced road through a town? do we really need a new county building that doesn't go out to bid but through a labor pack agreement? do we need all the political hires at the erie county water authority? Do we need duplication of services so thier buds have jobs? Do we need currupt social services programs?

I think not and with that said we are going to start to do our best to stop it. We will do our best to pull our hard earn cashed from thier greedy fingers and then tell them to go ruin someone elses state.

Rememeber it's NYS against the world not just 49 other states.

[Curmudgeon]

go to http://www.ongov.net/Press/articles/817.shtml
it is but one citing of what will be an underfunded pension fund very soon, and then any shortfall must be made up out of the general fund - my tax money.

I don't think that he was talking about retirement packages. In jis day, you'd be lucky to live to age 45.
Funny? yes. True? no....

That is the City; they have a different package than I did.
Before you seemed to be defending ALL municipal employess. Now we see there are differences.... I'd said it before; out of the entire spectrum of municipal employees, I find YOU the least egregious, with your type of job and the gov't entity you worked for. There are others that are the real problem.

The bottom line is this: NYS has the highest state tax burden in the US and WNY has an alarming rate of exodus of young people and industry. from 1990-2000 25% of people 18-35 LEFT!
Where do you think this tax burden is coming from? Pataki? Is he stuffing that tax money into his mattress? A swiss bank account? Come on, mr engineer......
This tax burden is imposed by the high cost of civil service labor in this state. It is the largest expense the state has by far. Is welfare fu*ked up too? of course it is. Like I said with the city police/fire payroll being over 50% of the total budget. And when I ask you about what part you played, you come up with the Nuremburg defense - "I was just doing my job"....

And now you are leaving as well... You complain about "the high cost of living". Why do you think your taxes are so high? To pay for all those guys who work for your town.

You refuse to acknowledge there is a problem and that civil service might be cotributing to that problem. This present situation is simply not sustainable and WILL result in a calamity in the near future if not addressed.

That is real intelligent
I'm not talking "wheelbarrows of worthless gurrency" inflation - i'm talking Jimmy Carter 15% inflation for a few years....

The bottom line is WNY screws over its young. That's why they are all leaving. And that is a recipe for disaster. WNY has one of the highest concentration of elderly in the US, like FLA or AZ. It's not that they all move to WNY to retire, rather all they young move AWAY, skewing the demographics.

But I think you are an educated person and already know this. Thats why you are moving.

Throw me a bone and at least acknowledge that all is not well with the civil service system in NYS.

[tomac]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
You refuse to acknowledge there is a problem and that civil service might be cotributing to that problem. This present situation is simply not sustainable and WILL result in a calamity in the near future if not addressed.

Why is it that for over one hundred years Civil Service worked splendidly and in the last five has become a piarah? Could it be that someone who has been in the system for a few years might know where the bones are buried and the politicians want them gone? Could it be that private consulting firms might be viewing all of that work that they could be doing (and, if no Civil Service, write their own ticket at the same time)?
Civil Service designed the Thruway, the Aurora Expressway and the Southern Expressway. These roads were designed for cheap dollars and built by private contractors under State and Counoty supervision. You show me a consultant who'll be able to do that, much less be willing to.

That is real intelligent
I'm not talking "wheelbarrows of worthless gurrency" inflation - i'm talking Jimmy Carter 15% inflation for a few years....

I stand by my statement. You should real intelligence by wishing hard times on others. Grow up.

The bottom line is WNY screws over its young. That's why they are all leaving. And that is a recipe for disaster. WNY has one of the highest concentration of elderly in the US, like FLA or AZ. It's not that they all move to WNY to retire, rather all they young move AWAY, skewing the demographics.

That's 100% true, but you better wake up and see who's causing these problems. You could have absolutely NO civil service, nor the pensions that go with them and guess what? The politicians would STILL be chasing the young folks and anyone else who's had enough out.

But I think you are an educated person and already know this. Thats why you are moving. Throw me a bone and at least acknowledge that all is not well with the civil service system in NYS.

I can't do that; I refuse to spread lies. Civil Service is as good as it gets and better than most. We'd have to be to stay and put up with this crap.
By the way, check out some time, the difference between Civil Service and appointed positions, okay?
Until then, WAKE UP!

[Curmudgeon]

You are hopelessly partisan. You refuse to acknowledge that the system that you contributed to and benefited from is in any way responsible to the ficsal calamity that is now before us. You remind me of those red army retirees moping about red sqare with thier communist party ribbons tacked on their overcoats, still espousing the virtues of the party.
Delve into a budget breakdown in any NYS govt entity - you'll see the 2 biggest pie wedgies are "payroll" and "benefits". Look at other states budget pie charts - those pie wedgies are a lot smaller.... Spare me the "patronage big conspiracy" crap.


I stand by my statement. You should real intelligence by wishing hard times on others. Grow up.
You don't seem do give a rat's ass abut my generation. Why should we care about yours? You wait and see, the "baby boomer" generation is going to try to take everyting they can once they decide they are done working, like yourself. I would completely support the Federal Reserve allowing a little "debt relief" inflation to reduce the amount of debt that I never signed up for but have to pay. I hope that in 10 years, I make $300,000 a year, a loaf of bread cost $10, and you still get the "same amount" of dollars that you get today. Enjoy your daily meal of cat food, hopefully that will be the only thing you can afford on your "fixed income". That can of cat food will cost you $5.97.

Oh, by the way, the Social Security nonsense you spouted before about paying for your parents... The average S.S. recipient today recovers ALL of the money (in time adjusted REAL dollars) that they have ever contributed in 14-18 months. Thanks for your contribution.....

[tomac]

Delve into a budget breakdown in any NYS govt entity - you'll see the 2 biggest pie wedgies are "payroll" and "benefits". Look at other states budget pie charts - those pie wedgies are a lot smaller.... Spare me the "patronage big conspiracy" crap.

Look again Bozo, its "Welfare" and "Medicaid" Payroll doesn't come close.

I stand by my statement. You should real intelligence by wishing hard times on others. Grow up.
You don't seem do give a rat's ass abut my generation. Why should we care about yours? You wait and see, the "baby boomer" generation is going to try to take everyting they can once they decide they are done working, like yourself. I would completely support the Federal Reserve allowing a little "debt relief" inflation to reduce the amount of debt that I never signed up for but have to pay. I hope that in 10 years, I make $300,000 a year, a loaf of bread cost $10, and you still get the "same amount" of dollars that you get today. Enjoy your daily meal of cat food, hopefully that will be the only thing you can afford on your "fixed income". That can of cat food will cost you $5.97.
Oh, by the way, the Social Security nonsense you spouted before about paying for your parents... The average S.S. recipient today recovers ALL of the money (in time adjusted REAL dollars) that they have ever contributed in 14-18 months. Thanks for your contribution..... [/B]

This little tirade proves that you are a miserable, jealous little man who obviously dislikes his mother-in-law (the evil witch is getting ALL that money and its coming right out of YOUR wallet). You are so pathetic that you wish evil times on others because you are jealous of something that they WORKED FOR and want them to lose it. Maybe someday down the road, when its YOUR turn to retire, some pisspot will tell you to go bankrupt and starve so HE won't have to pay for YOU. When that time comes, think of the people that you crapped on with your mount (or keyboard in this case)
The only other thing that I can figure is that you are one of Joel's cronies (or maybe your father is) and you are trying to make yourself look good by going after anyone whose opinion differs from the "party line". Is that true, could you be a political hack? You sure as hell sound like one.
Too bad I'll never know, because you are going into my killfile and will be blocked on my computer henceforeth.
See you around, until then BITE ME.


<<< PLONK >>>

[WNYresident]

<<< PLONK >>> ?

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
<<< PLONK >>> ?

Means that he's no officially a non-person (as far as I'm concerned)
Plonk is the sound of him being no longer recognized by my computer as I hit the button.

[WNYresident]

Oh dear Curm has been <<<PLONKED>>>


How can we PLONK politicians?

[Curmudgeon]

Well, that guy obviously cannot deal with real critisism about the system that he has so handsomely benefitted from. My mother-in-law and I have a wonderful relationship, I DON'T work for civil service, so I don't have any shady "income-deferrment" issues, and I am a fairly wealthy man who isn't jealous of anyone. I have a wonderful quality of life and a happy family that I support. And, I don't have to join a group of other people (union) to extort money out of the taxpayer.

This guy has been spending too much time with his peers telling each other how wonderful they are and what a benefit they are to the taxpayer. Any dissent on that issue results in a venomous retort.

How silly that he labeled me "part of the conspiracy" of Joel. Yep, it's a big secret society designed to screw him over and I'm a secret agent....

PLONK? I know you are but what am I? or something....

[Curmudgeon]

PLONK

I've been plonked! That's a first! It's somewhat liberating to have been plonked in a way. :)

[Unregistered]

"you are jealous of something that they WORKED FOR and want them to lose it. "

Just a comment from the peanut gallery here...

I too have been in a position to observe first hand some of the hijinks in government (in this case), Erie County government.

Aside from the above opinions and the disagreements, my concern is legitimate.

I have witnessed MANY county workers with no professional degrees, indeed I'm pressed to recall any at all who had an aspiration other than their holidays, summer hours and guaranteed wage increases.

Many of these workers are doing semi-clerical duties while making a wage that is FAR above the "market value" for the work that they are doing. Depending on how long they have had their position with the county, their wages run into the 30k+ bracket and above. These folks are looking at a retirement package of 80% wages plus full health, dental insurance etc.

I post this not because I have an agenda with civil service employees but because I believe that Tomac has failed to address the magnitutde to which this is a concern for all of us.

Someone mentioned the rising number of elderly in Erie County. Oh boy if the public was aware of the alarming rate that these folks are climbing onto the Medicaid rolls and demanding in-home health services and the like, if the public had a clue about the cost of this and how it rises steadily each year, we'd see an exodus alright. I'm next!

[WNYresident]

This is what i'm talking about. Tomac earned his keep with what he did. We then have the semi-clerical ones that are just not needed or over compensated for thier efforts.

Each town or city will have some good paid employees seeing it's a given. It's the promises, the handout welfare, the unneeded workers that are going to destroy us. Also, the underhanded non-bidding of projects. I remember how strict bids were 15 years ago. It was the lowest within reason to get a sale or project. Now it's more who you know.

[Unregistered]

"Now it's more who you know."

It's ALL who you know

[WNYresident]

Just a comment from the peanut gallery here...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dear Mr. Peanut. (no dis-respect)

So,

can you fill us in more with your findings? I noticed a few useless positions in the town i live in along with a lot of useless positions mentioned by other people in thier towns.

What type of department do you work in that you would see what we are trying to expose?

[Curmudgeon]

I told tomac on several occasions that I found HIS OWN PERSONAL story not so egregious relative to the rest of them. He chose to defend the system itself and thats why I lambasted him.

Peanut, at least you are being honest and actually acknowledging the problems that I identified, and I thank you for that.

I post this not because I have an agenda with civil service employees but because I believe that Tomac has failed to address the magnitutde to which this is a concern for all of us.
It's not a concern for him, because he played the "pyramid scheme" like a winner. He got his, and now he's cashing out, as he has admitted. The least he could do is come clean.

Someone mentioned the rising number of elderly in Erie County.
That was me - it's not really rising numbers of elderly so much as declining numbers of non-elderly... Yep, the "pyramid scheme" is in the process of falling apart, and tomac came out a winner (for now).

Thanks for the honesty, peanut.

[Unregistered]

Yep, the "pyramid scheme" is in the process of falling apart, and tomac came out a winner (for now)."

Your cheeky jocularity aside, I fail to see how any of we working professionals benefit from this. Surely this "scheme" is something that has been investigated before?

What is the current "control board" going to do to change it and how many generations will this take?

I've read opinions here on the breaking away of western NY state from the current situation of being anchored to "NY" state. Is this feasible when ( it appears that) a large number of people in western NY are employed by civil service and rely on it ( the NY State pension fund) ?

State convention? What are we talking about here to save ourselves?
I love the fact that this board exists but what good can we effect if we are not meeting with each other face-to-face and eliciting the type of ideas and exchange that are so WONDERFULLY EXPRESSED HERE????

[Curmudgeon]

What is the current "control board" going to do to change it and how many generations will this take?

Good question. As I see it, the city has an extreme case of what the rest of the state already has: Let's call it "special interest critical mass". This occurs when a special intrest gains control over a political process to the detriment of the remaining population. In this case, the special interest is the civil service bureacracy. The city has a relatively large population of public employees and few other good paying jobs. When this occurs, the voters will just keep on voting for politicians that pledge to keep the system the way it is, until the money runs out.

The state level politicians recognized that the endgame was near, but they couldn't do anything about it themselves because they also rely on the special interest. That's why they created to control board - to insulate themselves from reprisal from the predominate special interest in the state - the civil service unions.

This is why your taxes are the highest in the nation - the civil service unions have a stranglehold on the political process. If you don't like it, go out and vote for the guy who ISN'T endorsed by the CSEA, etc...

You'll be paying for the largess of the past for the foreseeable future. NYC is still paying off control-board bonds from the early 70's.. The current unholy alliance has to be deconstructed before ant progress can be made.

[Unregistered]

If the corruption goes to the top in the county, you might have your changes faster than you think.

[tomac]

Originally posted by Unregistered
If the corruption goes to the top in the county, you might have your changes faster than you think.

We can only hope!
Look here's one example of the kind of crap that's been going on in the Giambra administration:
Did you ever wonder what happens to the deer that have been hit by vehicles? Well the laborers at the various highway maintenance barns dispose of them.
In District 1, (which runs from Clarence to Grand Island) the total cost for removal of these deer carcasses was $1,250 (for five years). The year that Giambra got in, the administration decided that "that work was too messy and dangerous for OUR people to do -- let's privatize it! So a contract was set up and it went out to bid. A couple of the contractors that I talked to complained that the contract was slanted so that only one of the bidders could possibly win the bid. And surprise, surprise, he did.
That year, in District 1, the bill for deer removal was $25,000. And the SPCA (where we AND he took the animals) didn't change their rates. And there are four other districts what spent similar amounts as well.
But hey, business is business and civil service employees are EVIL, so that makes this kind of shenanigans acceptable, I guess.
Just remember -- its all the UNION's fault!

[WNYresident]

IN this instance how was this the unions fault?

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
IN this instance how was this the unions fault?

I'm not exactly sure, but according to Giambra, everything is the Unions' fault.

[Unregistered]

Oh you were being funny :) It's not totally the unions fault at all. It's the politicians that gave everything away without covering thier butts with the guarantees

[Curmudgeon]

I like how you cite anecdotal evidence of specific privatization misdeeds to convince us that privatization in general is a bad idea and doesn't work.... silly.

WNY is but one county in the USA. There is a LOT of privatization occuring successfully elsewhere. Why can't it be done here? We all know why you DON'T want it. Nice job trying to convince us that our local leadership (or any that may follow) is inherently corrupt and cannot be trusted to administer any privitized programs at all.....

As long as you convince everyone that privatization=corruption, you won't have to worry about being displaced by private industry! How convienent......