The City

[WestCoastPerspective]

Here's a little something for the anti- 'everything must be downtown crowd' and the planner-bashers who think those planners are out to take away the freedom to choose where and how one lives. I'm pro-city (surprise!) and this article did a great job of summing up why. It is an article written a while ago in the Buffalo News by William Graebner

"Without hesitation, I choose the city"

I choose the city . . .

Because I want to live--and I want my children to live--in the society of the future, rather than the society of the past. The future is multicultural, global, and heterogeneous; the suburbs offer monoculture, isolationism, and homogeneity. Why would anyone choose to live in a place that is 97 percent American white? Can children thrive if they grow up in a social and cultural backwater?

Because I believe in a community of shared responsibility, in which those who are more fortunate help those who are less so. Despite its limited resources, the city at least tries to be this kind of community. Think of the City Mission, Friends of the Night People, the downtown YWCA, and dozens of other social agencies. The suburbs have community, too, but it is a different sort of community--the community of the cul-de-sac, the community of the country club--built on exclusion rather than inclusion.

Because I believe in living life with a sense of adventure. The suburbs are peopled with cowards, those who fled from the challenges and rigors and anxieties of diversity and difference to harbors of safety. Still cowards, they are afraid to come downtown. Can flight be described as a moral choice? Is this the lesson that suburbanites teach their children: that fear is the basis for a satisfying life?

Because the city is a place of elegance and beauty, designed with human beings in mind. The suburbs have no elegance and not much beauty; they were designed for cars, not people; for isolated private enterprise, not public life. The suburban culture that produced the intersection of Sheridan Drive and Niagara Falls Boulevard is aesthetically bankrupt. What kind of person trades Elmwood Avenue for the pre-fab, mirrored, muzaked interiors of suburban shopping malls? Can a child learn to interact with the world from the back of an Explorer? The suburbs are ugly. Even the driving is better in Buffalo. Am I missing something? Because in the city I am surrounded by history, touched by the noble legacy of my culture: by the refined elegance of Louis Sullivan's Guaranty Building; by lingering signs of the Pan American Exposition; by the incredible vision of Frank Lloyd Wright; by the ornate splendor of Shea's Buffalo; by the grace of Edward Lupfer's Peace Bridge; by the soaring optimism of City Hall; by the haunting hulks of 19th century grain elevators; by the lore that surrounds the Canadiana; by historic neighborhoods. The suburbs will be old someday, too. But what will be there to preserve? Which big-box store will be saved for posterity? Around which of those office parks will preservationists of the future rally?

Because the city has physical integrity. It was built with real plaster, solid oak, beams 6 inches wide, and by craftsmen with skills. The simplest corner bar has palpable authenticity. In the suburbs, the doors are hollow (take that as a metaphor), and the corner bar has been replaced by national chains with the "old-timey" feel. Will you tell your kids about the good old days at Fuddruckers? Because the city is stimulating. It is alive--alive with ethnic groups and new immigrants, people of color, the young down on Chippewa at midnight, the poor and downtrodden (and even some of the rich), the avant-garde at Hallwalls, the mentally ill, the Chevy worker on the graveyard shift--and those who live in it are alive. The suburbs were created as a haven from all that stimulation, all that life. They are its antithesis. The suburbs are a living cemetery. Count me out.

OK- someone refill my wine glass and pass the caviar!
:D

[Boost Buffalo]

Great one Westcoast, absolutely wonderful. As a life long City of Buffalo resident and lover of life, I enjoyed the read thoroughly.

[Curmudgeon]

Very good stuff! A manifesto for sure. All the suburbs ask is that you pay for your experience yourselves. It's seems a bit disengenuous that a city person like yourself scorns the private enterprise and sterile environment of the suburbs, yet many of your kind continually demand "aid" (cash) from those very same suburbs.


It's a lot like the doe-eyed bohemian liberal arts student rallying against the evil establishment, while secretly begging money from her father who's a wealthy attorney in Amherst...

This is the USA, and you can do whatever you like. Just pick up the check when the bill comes due.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon

This is the USA, and you can do whatever you like. Just pick up the check when the bill comes due.

by the direction you fools in Amherst are heading, it looks like your wallets will be pried further open by your own wild and wayward municipality.

And that sterile wasteland wonderland plastic clad environment of Amherst is now deemed first choice for the poor to relocate. Vouchers in hand...times they are a changing.

Buffalo welcomes Amherst folk as well as all other cash carriers to enjoy our incredibly beautiful rich environment. And they are arriving.

So you steer clear of Buffalo? Or are you just against a fair state and county contribution like the other damn fool naysayers like Jim O?

[Linda_D]

Let me count the reasons why I wouldn't move back to "the city"...

10. Noise. Sirens. Loud music. Loud vehicle motors. More sirens.

9. Drug dealers and their dogs. City neighborhoods are infested with them. I prefer neighborhoods where the Golden Retrievers and Boxers outnumber the pitbulls.

8. Abandoned houses. This is not just an "East Side" thing anymore!

7. Absentee landlords. Not only do they let their property fall into disrepair, they rent to low-lifes who don't work, let their kids run wild, and "party hearty" while those of us who work try to sleep.

6. Urban rednecks. For every chardonnay sipper there's probably ten of these dudes who wear their ignorance and bigotry on their sleeves like Boy Scout badges. Some climb the political ladder to become elected officials.

5. Public school segregation. The public schools have become mostly non-white (72% in a city that is only 46% non-white) and poor (82% students qualify for free meals) while white middle class students hide out in private schools. So much for "diversity".

4. Safety, or lack of same. I don't want to be a prisoner in my own home or be afraid to walk around the block after dark or let my kids play outside.

3. Lack of snowplowing. Snowblowing your street gets old real fast. Been there, done that.

2. Buffalo BOE. The Buffalo BOE is more interested in buildings and keeping the plush jobs in City Hall than in teaching children. The last time the schools had a big cut in teachers, more than a hundred were laid off -- but only 1 administrator lost his job.

1. The Everything-Must-Go-Downtown Crowd. After going 0 for 40 years, these guys are still pushing "downtown revitalization"!

[WestCoastPerspective]

Linda = bigot

The main reason the city is in the mess it is in is because of white flight. The 'haves' left behind the 'have nots'. The city is strained to provide basic services. Yes there is government waste, so don't throw that back at me. But there's waste at all levels. But, life is good in the 'burbs, we have ours, to hell with everyone else! Lets put a wall around there folks and keep them in the urban jungle. Not my problem....I'll just sit back, bitch about the lack of development locally, high taxes, and stagnation and scratch my butt and wonder why.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Linda_D
Let me count the reasons why I wouldn't move back to "the city"...



what a bunch of crap Lol

Linda, what, did you live in the slums? under a bridge?

[steven]

Linda
You are just not a city person Linda, I doubt from seeing the posts you make that you would feel comfortable living in any city, not just Buffalo. Your earlier statement that makes assumptions that everyone needs to travel on county roads that led to no where but strips malls belies that.

Nothing wrong with that. I am not a country person and would be driven crazy if I lived where you did. Different strokes for different folks

As to these other wild assumptions you have about all city neighborhoods once again your way of the mark. I live on the west side in a working class neighborhood. No one on my block has a Pit Bull (although the Asian lady across the street does have a ferocious pussy cat). No one is dealing drugs. I would guess 70% of the houses on my block are owner occupied. and we don't have any abandoned buildings.

Public school segregation is a problem but that's the fault of the teachers not the residents. If they want to compete with charter schools and private schools they are going to have to learn to do there jobs better.

Lack of snowplowing? You lost me on that one, and I have never heard the term "urban redneck" but it does sound like a contradiction in terms.

You mentioned safety and noise, I can tell you the biggest problem we have here is not from anyone in our neighborhood but from the hoards of suburban kids that come here to party and act outrageous on the weekends and Wednesday (ladies night).

You are not equipped for urban living and that's fine. I certainly am not comfortable shopping in the strip malls all week, attending soccer games and listening to what I consider brain dead radio that babbles on for hours about the latest reality TV show. That seems to me to be all that suburban life is about. I like to shop in specialty shops where the owners know my name. I listen to public radio and my kids play football. I also like to be able to take my kids to the zoo, museum, or art gallery with out it being like visiting another country.
Different strokes for different folks

[buffknut]

This is stupid. I love the city. I work there. I grew up there. Now I live in the burbs. I like the burbs too. Why am I a coward for living in the burbs?

It's elitist to sit there and act superior because you live in the city. It's elitist to sit there and act superior because you live in the burbs. It's elitist to sit there and act superior because you live in the country. It's elitist for me to sit here & write how elitist you are.

See, it's stupid.

There are only 2 kinds of people in the world - those who say there are only 2 kinds of people in the world, and those that don't.

[buffy]

Ditto buffnut

West Coast P, ever been to Snyder or Williamsville? We have the Elmwood shopping atmosphere and elegant homes, the old glen falls park, village charm, clean streets, lots of people walking all hours, "safest city in america" designation for 4 consecutive years and always in the top five.

Anyways, you've made your point and I hear ya. I spent over 30 years in Buffalo, it has got its good points and its bad. Its good is VERY good and Its bad is VERY bad. I like the middle and I've got ithere. Snyder & Williamsville are just about perfect IMO!

[Boost Buffalo]

Williamsville used to be a wonderful place until 100,000 more cars moved into the neighborhood.

[steven]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
Williamsville used to be a wonderful place until 100,000 more cars moved into the neighborhood.

Agreed and that is exactly what's wrong in Erie county. A lot of Buffalos suburbs are not suburbs. They have in fact turned into mini cities. I was in the army for 20 yrs and traveled around the world/country during that time. I can say from experience what we call suburbs here would be called cities in a lot of other places

I always wondered what is the purpose of moving out into the country if you want a bar restaurant and shops located around you? Isn't the point of moving out of the city to get away from that? I am not trying to be condescending I am genuinely puzzled. Amherst/Williamsville is turning in to a city. With a population of 116,510 how much more growth do the residents of Amherst want? Didn't they move there originally to be in a quiet place with plenty of room?

I just don't get it

[therising]

I love Cities. I spent the first 34 or so years of my life living in Cities.

Now I live in the burbs. Is it better? I don't know, but it suits where I am in my life now.

This is what i've never understood - Why can't people just live and let live? Why do the elitist crowds in every city in this Country have to knock those who choose to live in the burbs? Why are there so many Linda D's who refuse to belive that there are still safe places to live in the city?

[moonshine]

Linda = bigot

Dude, you live on the other side of the friggin' country. What is your point? If you've got the goods that we all desire so much, why not move back here and put the rubber to the road? If the gospel you are preaching is in such demand you should have no problem finding a fat salary here, no? Seems strange that you have enough time to monitor ever post that happens thousands of miles away, but you are quick to call someone a bigot because they don't live in the neighborhood you are claiming to be the holy land.

[Shovel ready]

WCP thanks for posting this!

The author gives a nice summary on all the things wrong with suburbia, mainly it's asthetic bankruptcy and near-complete reliance on the automobile. We have to remember that the post-war burbs reflect the ideals of modernism---design that evokes the trimph of machine over man; Efficiency over asthetics; Convenience over physical integrity. The house became the machine for living. The office park, the machine for working, ect. ect.

What I did not quite agree with is the author labeling anyone who lives in the suburbs as being a cowardly loser. Perhaps we can lay collective blame on the white middle classes that fled the cities en- masse, but I have a hard time laying this upon individuals. Sure I know of plenty of suburbanites who are selfish (this constitutes the silent, dumb majoirty haha) and couldn't give a crap about community, but there are decent people who live in the burbs as well.

The city is a real tough sell to your averge family of a husband, wife and the 2.4 kids.

Yes, there are middle class families that remain. They are often progressive types that send their kids to City Honors or Hutch Tech and if the kids can't get into those schools, they splurge on a private school or move over the border into Kenmore or Amherst as a last resort.

But the typical WNY family opts for the suburban district with a "safe" school. I can understand. No typical middle class family in their right mind would send their kids to a school where the enrollment is 94& black. And trust me, many city schools are like this. The forced bussing and "desegregation" only drove familes out of stable city school districts into the burbs. The regional population quickly "resegregated" itself.

So yeah, the schools are the first regional problem that needs to be fixed. Buffalo and it's inner suburbs need to consolidate. Exclusionary school distrciting will no longer work. I think the city should restore neighborhood schools that have a 20% "oustide district" student quota. Surrounding suburban distritcs should take up some of this slack too to better distrubute the regions "special needs" students thoughout the system so no one particular school is terrible. In the meantime I think residents who can be enticed into returning to the city should have the option of forming their own charter schools.

Anways to others replied. Linda, once again you have it all wrong. I have lived in MANY city neighborhoods and never have been remotely near an abandoned house, overwhelmed by sirerns or had any pitbulls near me. I've walked around the west side alot at night and never once feared for my life. Your fears are indeed irrantional. I've rarely had a problem getting out of my street during a snowstorm. Frankly If you hate the city why the hell do you bother lurking in a city politics forum??

And responding to the comments about Williamsville, the obscene traffic on Main St. has sapped the village of all "quaintness" it once had. I had to run an errand there cross the sreet on foot and I had to wait like 7 mins (no joking) before I could safetly cross. The idiots on the Amherst town board allowed all those stupid office parks to be built out on Main toward Transit, so no they are stuck with a traffic nightmare from hell. So much for those "tranquil" suburbs...

I agree, Amherst is so built out it should have to call itself a city. 116,000 people, a major retail and office center constitutes much more than a TOWN.

But I digress multiple times here.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Originally posted by moonshine
Dude, you live on the other side of the friggin' country. What is your point? If you've got the goods that we all desire so much, why not move back here and put the rubber to the road? If the gospel you are preaching is in such demand you should have no problem finding a fat salary here, no? Seems strange that you have enough time to monitor ever post that happens thousands of miles away, but you are quick to call someone a bigot because they don't live in the neighborhood you are claiming to be the holy land.

Did I write the piece? I put it up for conversation- Don't attack me. Seeing we joined the forum at the same time and you have more posts than I do, its strange you have the time to monitor 'ever' post that happens. And your logic there escapes me...finding time, quick to call.....hmmmm. Whats in that Tonawanda water?

Look a little harder at Linda's post and tell me that doesn't reek of racism. I never said the city was the holy land- I'm just defending it from the suburban bashers/hate crowd.

I've paid my dues in Bflo, I'm just on a temporary hiatus, Dude. :D

[Shovel ready]

Look a little harder at Linda's post and tell me that doesn't reek of racism.

heh, i did notice Linda seems pretty terrified of black people.

[steven]

watch out or she will think your an "urban redkneck"

[Curmudgeon]

So yeah, the schools are the first regional problem that needs to be fixed. Buffalo and it's inner suburbs need to consolidate. Exclusionary school distrciting will no longer work. I think the city should restore neighborhood schools that have a 20% "oustide district" student quota. Surrounding suburban distritcs should take up some of this slack too to better distrubute the regions "special needs" students thoughout the system so no one particular school is terrible. In the meantime I think residents who can be enticed into returning to the city should have the option of forming their own charter schools.

Holy cow! I can see you learned nothing from the first stab at desegregation (social engineering). Good luck rounding up suburban kids and forcing them to show up at east-side schools to become part of the 20%. You might be able to get the Nat'l Guard to enforce that at gunpoint, if there wern't so many guard members deployed to Iraq...

The only way you could pull off suburban/city integration would be to dissolve the city district and to send those kids to suburban schools. And, you'd have to give the suburbanites money to do it.

Your plan, while well-intentioned, is not only doomed to failure, but will cause the bottom to fall out of an already weak real-estate market.

Nobody wants their kids exposed to the failures of a self-serving dysfunctional urban school district.

[Linda_D]

Obviously, using stereotypes to diss the 'burbs is perfectly fine, but you city boosters sure get ruffled when somebody uses parallel stereotypes to diss the city.

WCP, I used the term "low-lifes" because that is precisely what they are, no matter what their skin color. You and your fellow boosters assume I was using it as a euphemism for "black" because that's what your experience in Buffalo has taught you. If I'd meant black or Hispanic, I would have used those terms.

Am I a bigot for providing statistics showing that while 54% of Buffalo's population is white, only 28% of Buffalo public school children are white? How does pointing out that 82% of Buffalo public school children qualify for free breakfasts/lunches -- and indication of how poor the students are -- make me a bigot? Are you again assuming that this is pointing a finger at non-whites? Sorry, but it's pointing a finger at Graeber and his bull manure about raising children in "multicultural, global, and heterogeneous" surroundings.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by steven
Linda
You are just not a city person Linda, I doubt from seeing the posts you make that you would feel comfortable living in any city, not just Buffalo. Your earlier statement that makes assumptions that everyone needs to travel on county roads that led to no where but strips malls belies that.

Nothing wrong with that. I am not a country person and would be driven crazy if I lived where you did. Different strokes for different folks

As to these other wild assumptions you have about all city neighborhoods once again your way of the mark. I live on the west side in a working class neighborhood. No one on my block has a Pit Bull (although the Asian lady across the street does have a ferocious pussy cat). No one is dealing drugs. I would guess 70% of the houses on my block are owner occupied. and we don't have any abandoned buildings.

Public school segregation is a problem but that's the fault of the teachers not the residents. If they want to compete with charter schools and private schools they are going to have to learn to do there jobs better.

Lack of snowplowing? You lost me on that one, and I have never heard the term "urban redneck" but it does sound like a contradiction in terms.

You mentioned safety and noise, I can tell you the biggest problem we have here is not from anyone in our neighborhood but from the hoards of suburban kids that come here to party and act outrageous on the weekends and Wednesday (ladies night).

You are not equipped for urban living and that's fine. I certainly am not comfortable shopping in the strip malls all week, attending soccer games and listening to what I consider brain dead radio that babbles on for hours about the latest reality TV show. That seems to me to be all that suburban life is about. I like to shop in specialty shops where the owners know my name. I listen to public radio and my kids play football. I also like to be able to take my kids to the zoo, museum, or art gallery with out it being like visiting another country.
Different strokes for different folks

Actually, Steven, I've lived in all three types of places -- actually four: I was raised in the country; I lived for 20 years in Buffalo; I lived in a small village outside of Albany for a couple of years; and I lived in an Albany suburb for about 7 years. I currently live in the city of Jamestown, but my neighborhood is close to the city line and has a definite "suburban" feel even though most of the houses on my street were built in the 1920s.

I don't "hate" Buffalo the city, but I do lose patience with the Everything-Must-Go-Downtown crowd who refuse to acknowledge that the city's failure to take care of its ordinary citizens who live in ordinary neighborhoods -- going back forty years or more -- is the major cause of the city's population loss. I'll give you just three examples. Back in 1985 or 1986, Mayor Jimmy Griffin (the quintesential urban redneck) told residents "to relax with a six pack" instead of complaining about unplowed residential streets. In 2000, Mayor Tone partied on the City Hall steps for First Night while buses still weren't running in parts of the city because all the snow removal concentrated on making sure downtown and the Olympic Torch route were cleared. In 2005, the Common Council passes a resolution to get a new stadium in downtown -- because the state is giving aid to NYC for the Jets stadium.

I also don't have any patience with the City-Is-So-Superior-to-the-Suburbs crowd, as represented by Graeber, either, who base their superiority on stereotypes and myths, and turn a blind eye to the reality of the city's problems as well as the fact that people today are mobile; they don't have to live next door to something to support it or use it. In fact, I'd bet neither the City Mission nor Shea's could stay open without donations/patronage from suburbanites.

[Curmudgeon]

The main reason the city is in the mess it is in is because of white flight.

shame SHAME upon those people who have examined what the various municipalities have to offer AND acted in the best interests of themselves and their families!

Let's blame the fall of communism on those selfish individuals who jumped the Berlin Wall while we're at it.....

The new Bflo Schools Superinendant said it best yesterday when he said "the best way to get rid of chrater schools is the have a superior product. then people won't go to the charters".

The same could be said for the city in general.

[Linda_D]

originally posted by Gabe
Linda, once again you have it all wrong. I have lived in MANY city neighborhoods and never have been remotely near an abandoned house, overwhelmed by sirerns or had any pitbulls near me. I've walked around the west side alot at night and never once feared for my life. Your fears are indeed irrantional. I've rarely had a problem getting out of my street during a snowstorm. Frankly If you hate the city why the hell do you bother lurking in a city politics forum??

ROFLMAO.

Let's see, with the four people murdered yesterday, the city's homicide total for 2005 is already 19 ... that's on pace to hit 57 killings for the year. Oh, yeah, that happened in on the East Side, so maybe those don't count, huh?

[Boost Buffalo]

whats your point?

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
The new Bflo Schools Superinendant said it best yesterday when he said "the best way to get rid of chrater schools is the have a superior product. then people won't go to the charters".


Only four or five months ago, the Buffalo Board of Ed was embracing charter schools as a way of "saving" the district. Now, they're claiming charters as Buffalo public schools' public enemy #1. I think the BOE members ought to take a good hard look in the mirror.

[Trolls_r_us]

I can kind of see both sides of this issue.....

I live in the city on Lafeyette St between Elmwood and Delaware. In my immediate area the houses are GORGEOUS, lawns are like golf course greens, the Elmwood strip is a (SAFE, even at night) and short walk away, and my rent is WAY cheaper than I have paid in smaller, less interesting places....

Lafeyette and the imemdiate area is full of nice tree lined streets, great shops, it's pretty quiet for the most part, but also located right in the heart of the action

HOWEVER, take a short drive down W. Ferry, cross over Linwood ave (lived there once too, same deal) and onto Main St, take any random side street east of main, and it is like an entirely different WORLD, without exaggeration. I'm talking LITERALLY a 5 minute drive or 15 minute walk to a freaking GHETTO like I had previously never seen before....

My point is, where I live now and the neighborhood 3 streets over (a decent distance but still only 3 freaking streets) have very litttle in common other than the name "Buffalo" For all intents and purposes, it could be two different cities, each with its own experience and "feel" so to speak....

When I have children, I, like so many other "20 somethings" will probably move to the suburbs for the SCHOOLS. There is NO WAY I am sending my child to an inner city school. Call me whatever you want, I frankly don't care

My parents made the same decision back in the day about Rochester. They BOTH LOVED living in the city for all its fun and conveniences, but the SCHOOLS is the ONE REASON they moved out to the sticks. As soon as they had kids, they made the decision to move for better schools.

SOUND FAMILIAR??

UNTIL the schools become a place where you can send your child without fear of them being stabbed on the playground, you have the RESPNSIBILITY as a parent to give them the best you can give them, which RIGHT NOW is in the suburbs.

or a charter school in the city.... Either way, for THOUSANDS of people who have headed to the "burbs" the decision ahs come down to SCHOOLS

[WestSideJohn]

I don't want to get into this whole city vs. suburbs thing because frankly, it's a big part of the reason why Western New York is struggling. The problems of the city impact people who live in the suburbs, and vice versa (though perhaps on a smaller scale). Instead of looking at the issue in terms of "us vs. them" we'd do better looking at it as just "us."

Don't we have enough real problems without turning on each other?

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Linda_D


I don't "hate" Buffalo the city,

oh come on, its all you do is spew hate and displeasure. You dont sound too content, Linda. You find the worst of the worst and spew likes it all there is.

[buffy]

In defense of traffic jams during Main Street Williamsville during certain times of the day, the same can be said about Elmwood Ave.

[steven]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
I don't want to get into this whole city vs. suburbs thing because frankly, it's a big part of the reason why Western New York is struggling. The problems of the city impact people who live in the suburbs, and vice versa (though perhaps on a smaller scale). Instead of looking at the issue in terms of "us vs. them" we'd do better looking at it as just "us."

Don't we have enough real problems without turning on each other?

*Cheers and Claps*

[Shovel ready]

Good luck rounding up suburban kids and forcing them to show up at east-side schools to become part of the 20%


Curmudgeon, I am not advocating sending suburban kids to schools on the east side where they will be grossly outnumbered.

What I was trying to get at was taking kids from the most distressed areas and distrubuting them throughout the regional school system.

No more than 10-15% of the regional population is minority. All of our schools should reflect this. It makes no sense when a school in North Buffalo or the West Side is 80% black.

No school in this "regional" district should be no more than 20% minority.

I think the idea should be to dissolve any school districts on the eastside, restore neighborhood schools to the rest of the city (while maintaining some of the magnet schools that have worked well over the years).

This could make stable neighborhoods in the city even more attractive and attract more families back. Meanwhile some suburban schools could take some of the city slack.

For example, Amherst Central and Celeveland Hill takes a small portion
minority students from the adjacent Kensington-Bailey area, ect.

Meanwhile more subsidized housing should be earmaked in inner-suburban areas. This can lighten the load on the city and better distribute the poor throught the region. The idea should be to empty out the worst neighborhoods closest to the city core and clear out everything that is rotting. Crumbling houses will be torn down. Lots will be redivided for infill construction. Old houses in relatively decent condition can be fixed up like new. These areas should be redeveloped into beautiful new neighborhoods.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by Buff Lifer
In defense of traffic jams during Main Street Williamsville during certain times of the day, the same can be said about Elmwood Ave.

Main St. is about 4 times the width of Elmwood. With one lane of traffic on each side (and parked cars serving as a buffer), Elmwood is much easier to cross in peak traffic.

Main Street is about 6 lanes of trafic and people generally drive 40-50 miles an hour, creating a foreboding speedway. Since Elmwood is so narrow, cars usually don't go any faster then 30 mph when there is alot of traffic.

Williamsivlle needs a few things to make it less of a traffic hell:

-Traffic calming on Main St. This means putting in a center median, widening sidewalks, planting trees, ect.

-Getting the I-90 toll moved past the Transit Rd. exit. I have a hunch that alot of the rush hour gridlock on Main St. is due to people annoying the thruway toll built at a time when there was not much but farmland in that location. Times have chaned and the toll needs to be moved up to alleviate uncessecary traffic that clogs Main and Wherle.

-STOP BUILDING THOSE DAMN OFFICE PARKS near Transit. Those suburban roads were built to handle rural and light-resedential traffic. Intensive commercial uses in a decentralized location like the Main/Transit area creates a traffic nightmare. Such development should be clustered in a Central Business District (like downtown Buffalo) where there is already the infrastructure in place to handle intensive commercial uses AND PLENTY OF SHOVEL-READY SITES. Plus downtown is a centalized location for the entire region and a centralized public transit hub within reach for EVERYONE.

That's all for now.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Group forum meet in the 'burbs????:

http://img251.echo.cx/img251/3227/tea20big6od.jpg


:D

[Deerhunter]

The garbage pockets of the City give the city a bad name. I am an advocate of knocking down all the vacant houses/buildings. Hiring a tough DA, equally tough Judges, and build a new , bigger , Holding Center. Start punishing lowlifes with actual time, misd. offense = 1 yr in jail. You could clean up the streets in short order. Until that time, the criminals will use the Holding Center as a Hotel, and the crime wave will continue. And I can tell you all, firsthand, it is a pathetic joke. It might cost more to house these scumbags, but I think the payoff to the City and communities would be well worth it. I don't blame anybody who moves out of the City, especially the garbage areas. Its too bad our society is concerned with doing the politically correct thing, instead of the realistic get-things-accomplished plan. Until that time people that can afford to , will continue to move out of the city, leaving the poor, and the garbage behind. Some of you may know, there is a heroin problem amongst many young adults that live in the suburbs. You would be surprised at the number of plates that come back to suburban residences. They come into the city to buy their dope, then move it out to the burbs.

[WNYresident]

I still like my idea of chaining them to the floor or exploding neck collars.. Just think as they run we can create some jobs for cleanup duty :)

[citymouse]

I have never lived anywhere else but South Buffalo. I can walk to a store, a Bar,Banks, Barber shop, Caz park, South Park Lake as well as numerous diners and resturants.
I know all my neighbors for blocks around and we socialize on many occasions.
My kids walked to the same schools I did. I can also go for awalk around the streets of my neigborhood 24-7 with no worries.
To me this becomes of increasing benefit as gas approaches three dollars a gallon.
My prperty taxes are cheaper, and the services such as plowing have much improved over the years, as well as garbage pickup.
Why would I leave?, why would anyone?
I find the suburbs a sterile and inconvinient place to live.
Of course that is my observation, as i never actually lived there.

[yokes]

I think the overlying issue is the brilliance of the writer. In the original peice that started the thread they managed pigeon hole all who disagree or have different opinions as racist wackos through great use of stereotyping and generalizing in much the same way he claims the suburbanites wrongfully think about the about the city.

Hmmm why cant we all get along ;)

[therising]

Citymouse, you make excellent points. South Buffalo is a neighborhood.

The neighborhood feel is something that is lacking in many suburbs. Williamsville being an exception, I suppose.

[biker]

Citymouse

I'm curious, do your kids live in the City too.

No shot intended here, I'm just curious.

[300miles]

This whole City vs. Suburbs fight is a waste of time and energy.

[citymouse]

Originally posted by biker
Citymouse

I'm curious, do your kids live in the City too.

No shot intended here, I'm just curious.

Two out of three. The one that dosen't moved out of the city because they more or less inherited a house outside of it.

[citymouse]

Originally posted by 300miles
This whole City vs. Suburbs fight is a waste of time and energy.

Not completley. I have friends who moved out to the suburbs years ago and still spend a good part of thier social life here. Not all of it, mind you, but more and more as thier kids got older.
They seemed pretty frazzeled with driving thier kids every where. My kids and thier friends walked to the ice rink, the Caz pool, school dances, and Library.
It just seems they are a little more independent then thier suburban counterparts.
They all grew up fine and have become responsible adults. They were not angels by any means but in the long run removing kids to the suburbs dosen't guarentee they turn out any different on average then city kids. It is not where, but how they grew up.
Low or no mortgage payments and taxes in a older well kept home seemed more important to me than a big lawn and new home.
It also allows for more retirement investment, More of an ability to financially assist your children while they continue thier education.
In short more disposable income for things like travel and socializing.
I also enjoy the buzz and hustle of city politics.
As I said, I find the suburbs stifling and confining.
Apperently a lot of people don't. I think, as I said before, when gas hits three or four dollars a gallon more people will agree with me.

[crlachepinochet]

I like walking to my Dollar General on Kenmore, they have deals on some things that are even better than the supermarkets. I've gotten to know some of the cashiers, and I prefer it now to the big guys. Why the hell do people have to hold up my cozy little store?

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by citymouse

They seemed pretty frazzeled with driving thier kids every where.

Yes, many suburban parents are turned into full time taxicab drivers when it comes to shuttling their kids all over the place. It can become quite taxing on the spirt not to mention the clock.




Originally posted by citymouse
as I said before, when gas hits three or four dollars a gallon more people will agree with me.

And this WILL be happening within very soon. A lifestyle revolving around excessive motoring for every little need will eventually become too expensive.

[citymouse]

Originally posted by crlachepinochet
I like walking to my Dollar General on Kenmore, they have deals on some things that are even better than the supermarkets. I've gotten to know some of the cashiers, and I prefer it now to the big guys. Why the hell do people have to hold up my cozy little store?


I know it is, but I don't consider Kenmore or Lackawanna a suburb. Especially Kenmore, It is more of a neighborhood and a tight one at that, at least what I know of it.

[300miles]

This is a waste of time because everyone is generalizing about the stereotypical city where everything is walkable, and the stereotypical suburb where everything is quiet and safe.

There are many suburbs that are walkable, just as there are many areas of Buffalo that are NOT walkable. Likewise there are suburbs that are noisy and full of industry, while some areas of the city are very peaceful with big backyards and no business nearby.

The whole gas shortage argument is meaningless because half (or more) of the businesses in the area are NOT in the city. I could move downtown, but would still need to drive 20miles everyday to my job in the burbs. A gas shortage won't force businesses downtown, especially when the majority of their employees live in the burbs anyway. With the booming economy of the burbs, businesses are crowding the business strips like Niag Falls Blvd and Transit. You don't need to drive more than a block or 2 to get everything you need anymore.

I don't have kids and my ideal place to live would be downtown, or elmwood and that's my goal to get there. I love city life, (i'm starting to sound like Green Acres, aren't I? Da da da da da Fresh Air! Da da da da da Times Square!!) I like the city traffic, the people, the shops, bars, restaurants, and the last place I want to be right now is the suburbs. If I weren't tied to Buffalo, I'd be in Chicago, NYC, or Toronto right now living downtown. I want to be 5 minutes from all the action.

But once I have kids, I would ditch the city and move to the burbs. I'd get the big yard, near a good school, in a safe area. Those are the facts. I don't give a rat's a$$ what anyone else argues... that's what i'm doing. So what's the point of arguing over "my neighborhood is better than your neighborhood"? No-one is going to change their minds. It's a personal preference. End of story. One is not BETTER, it's just DIFFERENT.

[buffy]

YA' HEAR THAT...END OF STORY:)

[Curmudgeon]

I think the city is a great place: I just expect the residents to pay for it themselves.

[biker]

Curmudgeon:

I agree with both sentiments.

Further, I think that saddling the poorest community in the County with all the tax-exempt public buildings is a mistake. Get them out of here.

And now we'll have another piece of tax-exempt property, except that it'll be empty: the Safety Building (man, do I ever feel safer now that that boondoggle is built).

Take the buildings and their "high-paying government jobs" (as some dope put it) out of downtown and let me have my City back.

[WestCoastPerspective]

great....and replace them with? Parking lots?

[crlachepinochet]

It's not as if there's a shortage of space downtown. Sure, there seems to be a growing demand for space, and there might not be every kind of office space available, but I'll take the gov't workers and their lunch money spent downtown at least for now. We're still in a stage where anything going on in the city is good, we can't afford to be picky right now.

[biker]

Originally posted by crlachepinochet
It's not as if there's a shortage of space downtown. Sure, there seems to be a growing demand for space, and there might not be every kind of office space available, but I'll take the gov't workers and their lunch money spent downtown at least for now. We're still in a stage where anything going on in the city is good, we can't afford to be picky right now.

Which is what has been said for decades.

Think outside the box.

Both of you.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Originally posted by biker
Which is what has been said for decades.

Think outside the box.

Both of you.

And your idea of relocating government offices out of the city helps who/how/where/at what cost? What replaces the offices? Tax-paying vacant lots? Yipppeee! That solves alot. Bikers' save Buffalo plan: Relocate all employees that are in government buildings, churches and schools to the suburbs so we can tax the property! :eek:

Think, before telling everyone else to think.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by biker


Think outside the box.



A stupid idea is a stupid idea whether its in or outside the box.

In your case you need to learn how to think.

If government offices were suddenly taken out of downtown there would not be much left there. So what would we have? An even more vacant downtown!

Bright idea!

[Boost Buffalo]

Move the government tenancy out of downtown?

That has got to be the most ignorant recommendation regarding urban repair that I've ever read.

And most of that government tenancy is in privately owned, privately financed and beautifully executed private investments with first class architecture and institutional grade quality construction.

And these do pay taxes, more and more every year.

Not to mention all the business they bring downtown, too.

biker ist ein Arschloch

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Gabe
A stupid idea is a stupid idea whether its in or outside the box.

In your case you need to learn how to think.

If government offices were suddenly taken out of downtown there would not be much left there. So what would we have? An even more vacant downtown!

Bright idea!

Yeah, it is a bright idea, gabe. Downtown redevelopment has been going on for forty years, and hasn't moved off square one while the rest of the city has been dragged down because every spare penny has been spent within sight of City Hall. @#$% public money -- local, state or federal -- for downtown redevelopment -- if downtown can't support itself, then let it sink.

If the city had invested 20% of the bucks it's poured into downtown projects over the last four decades into neighborhoods -- into schools, code efforcement, snowplowing, crime prevention etc, it would probably have 50,000 more people living within the city. Wake up and smell the coffee, boy. Buffalo is more than downtown. In fact, 98% of Buffalonians live outside downtown.

You want to save Buffalo, Gabe, well, how about starting with the hardest job first? How about redeveloping the East Side? Not with the few crumbs City Hall throws, but with a real project -- why not put the federal courthouse on the East Side? How about connecting it to the Central Terminal? Rehab the landmark and put it to use. There's acres and acres of virtually barren land for the courthouse and for parking lots. Most of the property is already owned by the city or worth so little that the city wouldn't notice the loss of tax revenue and there wouldn't be much displacement of residents or businesses. In fact, it might give the Broadway Market a nice boost.

Want an easier redevelopment project? How about putting the federal court house in the Richardson Complex? Again, save a landmark, no loss of tax monies, give a struggling neighborhood a nice boost.


You need to learn how to think, Gabe.

[WestCoastPerspective]

The Richardson neighborhood is struggling?

So the courthouse would boost these neighborhoods but not boost downtown? HUH?!?!?

Downtown development has moved off square one in 40 years?

Now we know that LindaD doesn't know what she's talking about.

Linda must be a laid-off snowplow driver, thats all she harps on.

[300miles]

any building that employs that many people (such as the govt buildings) should be Downtown. Downtown has the infrastructure to handle that load of people, cars, traffic... The last place it should be is in a remote city neighborhood.

[Shovel ready]

Linda does not seem to understand the purpose of a downtown.

Mainly that it clusters government buildings, law offices and courthouses within walking distance, and offers the roads and infrastructure for intensive offce and other commercial uses.

The whole idea is CENTRALIZATION of essential services. A downtown is cetral to the regional population and usually the hib of a local public transportation system, meaning it is accessible to ALL. Even those worthless schlubs who don't own automobiles.

If we followed the logic of Linda and Biker, county social services would be out in the middle of an amherst office park where many people who need the services can't even reach it.

Oh and Linda if you care so much about the East Side you should go buy a house there, fix it up and live in it.

hah, didn't think so...

[Boost Buffalo]

right on Gabe, except for the location of the welfare offices. I would like to see them out in Amherst, perhaps right on Main Street in new Williamsville.

And to prevent a deal killer, I'll personally pay everybodies bus fair that needs a lift out there. Can we do it?

But the courthouses, the FBI, Social Security, IRS, Secret Service, federal Reserve, etc etc etc etc stay put downtown.

Then lets welcome those Williamsville people back home to Buffalo where they belong.

[biker]

Gabe:

It is you who do not know what the purpose of downtown was and to what it is evolving.

Downtowns as we know them-----the retail, entertainment and business centers of their areas---came into being in the late 1870s, with the advent of the electric railcar. For the first time, cheap and quick transportation was available to every resident.

On fixed lines, they all converged on "downtown." This bustling, vibrant downtown had its heyday from about 1890 through the end of WWII.

Since 1950, the areas outside the central city in each metropolitian contained more than half the residents. Buffalo included.

It's time for a paradigm shift.

Sixty years of government-induced or directed "development" has failed. As compared to forty years ago:
fewer people work downtown;
fewer people live downtown;
fewer people shop downtown.

Give some other model a chance.

Government interference is preventing downtown from evolving into the new form that could be self-sustaining.

Derelict buildings----like those at the corner of Oak and Genessee---- are withheld from development on the chance that the owner might "strike it rich" with the next convention center or casino.

I'm not talking about relocating all government buildings at once out of downtown. As new ones are built, build them someplace else. With the mobility of the car, there's no reason for these functions to be close together

No one here has once answered to the immorality of burdening the poorest municipality in the County with all this government tax-exempt property.

Let the City find its new equilibrium and its new uses without the interference of government.

Set my real estate free!!!

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by biker


I'm not talking about relocating all government buildings at once out of downtown. As new ones are built, build them someplace else. With the mobility of the car, there's no reason for these functions to be close together



Not everyone owns a car, you dolt.

[biker]

Now watch the names.

I've wanted to call you an ignorant scum-sucker, but I haven't.



So you think Buffalo should be burdened by all this tax-exempt property by the very small minority who have no access to a car?


Weak, Gabe. Very weak.

[citymouse]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by biker
[B]
Sixty years of government-induced or directed "development" has failed. As compared to forty years ago:
fewer people work downtown;
fewer people live downtown;
fewer people shop downtown.

Over all in Erie county:
Fewer people live;
Fewer people work;
Fewer people shop.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by biker

No one here has once answered to the immorality of burdening the poorest municipality in the County with all this government tax-exempt property.



Government occupied buildings bring a lot more wealth and capital to downtown than just property taxes. Its pretty simple to understand.

And most government offices downtown are already in private buildings that do pay taxes.

Why is this hard to understand?

[WNYresident]

Government occupied buildings bring a lot more wealth and capital to downtown than just property taxes. Its pretty simple to understand.

Other than having a few which are tax exempt or minimally paying property taxes explain to me the wealth part? Are you saying they bring mroe to downtown than let say, businesses?

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Gabe
Linda does not seem to understand the purpose of a downtown.

Mainly that it clusters government buildings, law offices and courthouses within walking distance, and offers the roads and infrastructure for intensive offce and other commercial uses.

The whole idea is CENTRALIZATION of essential services. A downtown is cetral to the regional population and usually the hib of a local public transportation system, meaning it is accessible to ALL. Even those worthless schlubs who don't own automobiles.

If we followed the logic of Linda and Biker, county social services would be out in the middle of an amherst office park where many people who need the services can't even reach it.

Oh and Linda if you care so much about the East Side you should go buy a house there, fix it up and live in it.

hah, didn't think so...

Did I say put government buildings in Amherst? No. I said use them to start redevelopment in Buffalo neighborhoods. Put Erie County Services on the East Side where the poor people are, not in downtown. Then it won't matter if they have a car or busfare because a lot of them can just walk there!

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
Government occupied buildings bring a lot more wealth and capital to downtown than just property taxes. Its pretty simple to understand.

How? With their bag lunches and their cups of yogurt after their workout at the Y? Maybe King Joel and his gang of thieves take 2 hour lunches in fancy restaurants regularly -- that seems his style -- but most city, county, and state workers don't have the time or the money to indulge. Actually, neither do most private sector workers.


Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
And most government offices downtown are already in private buildings that do pay taxes.

Why is this hard to understand?

Did Tone and Joel sell City Hall and the Rath Building? The city court building? What about the federal court builidng (the existing one, not the one they really ought to build elsewhere)? I thought the BECPL just spent $3 million on renovations, so where are they going? You're blowing smoke, BB, because you ain't got nothin'!

[WNYresident]

Originally posted by Linda_D
How? With their bag lunches and their cups of yogurt after their workout at the Y? Maybe King Joel and his gang of thieves take 2 hour lunches in fancy restaurants regularly -- that seems his style -- but most city, county, and state workers don't have the time or the money to indulge. Actually, neither do most private sector workers.



Did Tone and Joel sell City Hall and the Rath Building? The city court building? What about the federal court builidng (the existing one, not the one they really ought to build elsewhere)? I thought the BECPL just spent $3 million on renovations, so where are they going? You're blowing smoke, BB, because you ain't got nothin'!


Why are they building a new federal building? Isn't the old one working currently?

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Why are they building a new federal building? Isn't the old one working currently?

the Dulski Building's useful life had expired and a local, private developer built a brand new one with private money and leased it to the feds, suite by suite.

Its beautiful, its private, its privately managed and maintained and sparkles on a once longtime paved parking lot. And its already been sold to another group of successful private investors. Transfer tax dollars etc are flowing everywhere.

Next the Dulski Building will be sold to private enterprise. Its terrific, the whole deal.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Linda_D


Did Tone and Joel sell City Hall and the Rath Building? The city court building? What about the federal court builidng (the existing one, not the one they really ought to build elsewhere)? I thought the BECPL just spent $3 million on renovations, so where are they going? You're blowing smoke, BB, because you ain't got nothin'!

Linda, relax, and I dont know what you're talking about. I know those arent going anywhere. ???

[Boost Buffalo]

But Linda, you do have something there, sell the Rath Building.

Cant see where that does us much service anyway. And we'll move Giambra and the boys down the street near the Darwin Martin House where they can slug around unnoticed.

[Linda_D]

I'm simply going to add to what Biker said about downtowns.

The downtown footprint -- tall buildings jammed close together -- developed when communications technology was limited to the telephone and telegraph, when labor was cheap, and when companies were not only smaller but local or regional, even if their business was national.

Today technology enables communications across the country without anybody leaving his or her work site -- all you need are a speaker phone and an internet connection. Moreover, technology has shrunken the labor needs of business. A sharp administrative assistant with a PC and the right software can replace the office typing pool, and has. Finally, businesses have gone multinational, so corporate headquarters tend to congregate in large cities like New York and LA while back office operations tend to gravitate toward smaller cities because of the cost factor.

What this means is that there's no longer the need for all the downtown office space that exists. Offices are no longer tied to downtown for ease of communication. There are not only fewer corporate HQs to go around, but fewer workers in the HQs and the Regional Offices -- and back office operations can be done more cheaply than outside downtown areas.

So, Gabe and BB in particular, even if there were no suburbs, the importance of downtown areas for business would be diminishing. Add suburbs and a generally declining population, and the only way downtown Buffalo "prospers" is at the expense of everything else in the city, which is what's been going on for at least 4 decades in Buffalo.

The "heyday" of downtowns as central business districts is finished. Technology has made downtowns obsolete, and the lack of "downtowns" and "centralized services" in prospering suburban towns like Amherst or Cheektowaga proves that.

BTW, don't start the whine about gas prices, Gabe & BB. Ever hear of "telecommuting"? Ever participate in a "virtual meeting"? Ever taken a college class via "distance learning"? I don't suppose so, you two -- and several others -- are too busy playing SimCity and trying to recreate a past that never was. Yoohoo -- it's 2005 not 1905, gentlemen!

[WestCoastPerspective]

Yes downtowns have diminished in importance and most are finding they need to recreate themselves- some are more successful than others. They aren't the business and retailing centers they once were (Chicago, NY, Seattle, San Fran, Boston being exceptions). But they are coming full-circle. Residential is returning to downtown areas. If there ever is a critical mass, some retail will follow. No, it will never again be the hub of retailing in WNY- the corner of Walden and Union has that distinction for the next 15 years at least- and it isn't the office hub it used to be either. But it is still the largest concentration of offices in the area. And as the downtown becomes more vibrant, the greater lure it will be for businesses. It is true that business don't need to be located in close proximity as they used to, but many firms and employees prefer an urban setting for the conveniences, the quality of life, and excitement.

The obituaries have been written for downtown for decades yet they seem to keep chugging along. What is the national vacancy rate for offices downtown anyway? Is there more or less space in the nations' downtowns today or 30 years ago? Yes there has been substantially more space built in suburbs but downtowns are far from dead. Even Detroit's is coming back!

[biker]

I never said downtown was dead and I don't want it to be.

I do want the over-arching interference of government and developers (and I don't know who uses whom) to stop interfering with the rebirth of downtown.

[therising]

Biker - although I disagree with a lot of what you say, most of your posts are not dumb. Until now. You're rationale here makes no sense. And I'm surprised at you, because you normally seem to be a downtown supporter. Despite what you may think, govt workers are not struggling downtown. I still don't see the logic in your statement.

Linda, on the other hand is no surprise. Your constant "Why does everything have to be downtown?" posts have made your stance clear. But now, you're taking it one step further. You are trying to use rationale to show why Cities, in general are dinosaurs. Using your rationale, maybe I'll get rid of my dog for a virtual pet. Maybe I'll NEVER call my mother again, because I can just text message her.

Linda - don't use technology as a means for forgoing human interaction.

[biker]

Therising

I am a downtown supporter. I ride the subway, eat in restaurants, go to plays and used to shop downtown.

I am against government-directed and (tax) supported downtown development.

Government leadership has shown again and again they don't have the brains needed to carry out basic functions without waste. patronage and corruption. Let alone that they are capable of guiding economic development.

I am in favor of letting small businesses move back into downtown and provide those services which people who live and work downtown want.

The only people who benefit from IDAs and their ilk are the developers and their enablers, the politicians who temporarily inhabit positions of authority.

[therising]

I'll give you this much. On a personal, perhaps selfish, note, I too would prefer to have most of the gov't workers downtown replaced with private sector workers.

I often see people downtown that I do business with. You bump into people in a lobby, at the food court, in a restaurant, etc, and the potential for further business always exists. (NOTE TO LINDA, KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN PROMOTIN TELECOMMUTING)

Nevertheless, there is room enough for everyone downtown. There is still enough room for development that additional office space can be built, as the market warrants.

As someone pointed out earlier, the Dulski tenants have been moving into privately owned buildings. The GSA sends out RFP's, and the private sector benefits from this. I am 90% sure these buildings stay on the taxroll. Perhaps, even more so than other newly built office buildings, as IDA incentives are not involved.

[biker]

The rising

Push on these development people. I mean really push on this thread. You'll find out, when you pin them down, that there's a tax benny tied in to all of these larger developments. Maybe every development these days.

You'll have to parse their statements, cause they'll mislead you. Try and throw you off with talk about these new leased buildings are privately-owned. And hope you think that that automatically means they'll pay taxes like ordinary dopes like you and me.

But they slip and sometimes the truth comes through. They're all done with PILOTs. "Payments in lieu of taxes." Pure negotiation. Sometimes the "payment" is zero.

Not the deal I get on my house. How about you.

And then there's the whore who said "the Dulski building is nearing the end of its useful life." What a jerk. Who believes the rest of us are sheep awaiting the shearing.

When did Dulski open? 73 or '74? And it's at the end of its life. Ben Rathbun's Title Guaranty building was built in 1834 and last I looked, it's still in use.

The developers are hooked on projects, more projects, always more. I just don't want to pay for their smack.

[biker]

Oh yeah.

For the eigth time, no one is willing to address the morality of saddling the poorest community in the County with this concentration of tax-exempt property.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by biker
And then there's the whore who said "the Dulski building is nearing the end of its useful life." What a jerk. Who believes the rest of us are sheep awaiting the shearing. When did Dulski open? 73 or '74? And it's at the end of its life. My understanding is that the problem with the Dulski building isn't age... it's an asbestos issue.

[WNYresident]

When did Dulski open? 73 or '74? And it's at the end of its life. Ben Rathbun's Title Guaranty building was built in 1834 and last I looked, it's still in use.

Valid point.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by biker


The only people who benefit from IDAs and their ilk are the developers and their enablers, the politicians who temporarily inhabit positions of authority.

what an ignorant statement Lol

[buffy]

And then there's the whore who said "the Dulski building is nearing the end of its useful life." What a jerk. Who believes the rest of us are sheep awaiting the shearing.

Let me first make very clear that I am not that person you are referring to ( I believe it was Linda), but, I remember reading in the News that the Dulski building was full of asbestos and that was the reason it was being demolished. I aagree its a beautiful building.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Other than having a few which are tax exempt or minimally paying property taxes explain to me the wealth part? Are you saying they bring mroe to downtown than let say, businesses?

I think they bring more downtown than your standard office occupancy.

Not only are white collar government workers very well paid and we know they're spending well downtown, but also the government services that draw thousands and thousands of the public to downtown, its huge. We just need to capitalize on it more effectively. And we are.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Valid point.

right again WNY, The Dulski exodus is purely a health driven issue, and the building was in need of a total refit anyway. Thirty year old building systems including buildouts are shot.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by biker



But they slip and sometimes the truth comes through. They're all done with PILOTs. "Payments in lieu of taxes." Pure negotiation. Sometimes the "payment" is zero.


And then there's the whore who said "the Dulski building is nearing the end of its useful life." What a jerk.

wrong again biker, just another one of your constantly ignorant, anti establishment statements.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by Buff Lifer
Let me first make very clear that I am not that person you are referring to ( I believe it was Linda), but, I remember reading in the News that the Dulski building was full of asbestos and that was the reason it was being demolished. I aagree its a beautiful building.

Actually, IMHO, the Dulski is a hulking eyesore. Like other architectural abortions
constructed from the 50s-70s, the Dulski is not much more than a drab slab of concrete with funny looking windows. Buildings from that time period are notorious for being built on the cheap. After WW2, America decided that quality architecture was no longer needed.

I hope they rip that damn thing down soon.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by biker
The rising

When did Dulski open? 73 or '74? And it's at the end of its life. Ben Rathbun's Title Guaranty building was built in 1834 and last I looked, it's still in use.

The developers are hooked on projects, more projects, always more. I just don't want to pay for their smack.

Actually if you knew what you were talking about you would know that the Guaranty building was built in 1896, not 1836 when skyscraper did not yet exist.

And guess what? Just about every new project everywhere is built by developers. Just about everything built in the suburbs we can thank large scale developers.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Buff Lifer
but, I remember reading in the News that the Dulski building was full of asbestos and that was the reason it was being demolished. I aagree its a beautiful building.

you got that right Buffy, its got the dreaded asbestos, but are you sure demolition is confirmed?

With or without demolition, the asbestos is removed first. The building will only be demolished if a suitable private developer doesnt grab on, which is unlikely at this point.

And as you probably know, Ciminelli committed to purchasing the former Federal Reserve Bank building right across the street.

Things are improving drastically downtown.

[steven]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo


And as you probably know, Ciminelli committed to purchasing the former Federal Reserve Bank building right across the street.



They got it for a song to, I cant believe bidding wasnt higher that is a superb structure.

[biker]

Originally posted by Gabe
Actually if you knew what you were talking about you would know that the Guaranty building was built in 1896, not 1836 when skyscraper did not yet exist.


You are talking about the wrong Guaranty building. This is further up Franklin. Might be the Title Guarantee. Built by Benjamin Rathbun, the "Master Builder and Architect" of 1830s Buffalo. One time home of the Unitarian Church, visited by Abraham Lincoln.

[biker]

Originally posted by Buff Lifer
Let me first make very clear that I am not that person you are referring to ( I believe it was Linda), but, I remember reading in the News that the Dulski building was full of asbestos and that was the reason it was being demolished. I aagree its a beautiful building.

No, it wasn't Linda; she knows better.

You are absolutely right that it's full of asbestos. I repeated the quote to demonstrate the lengths to which developers and their sycophantic enablers will will go to lie to you in pushing their agenda to build the next project.

Downtown Buffalo does have a life and does have value. Government-supported projects are perverting that life.

[therising]

Originally posted by steven
They got it for a song to, I cant believe bidding wasnt higher that is a superb structure.

On what knowledge do you base this? Are you that familiar with downtown Real Estate values?

Besides, the building has a lot of unusable space (large vaults, etc) that diminish the value greatly.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
But Linda, you do have something there, sell the Rath Building.

Cant see where that does us much service anyway. And we'll move Giambra and the boys down the street near the Darwin Martin House where they can slug around unnoticed.

Obviously, BB, if it's not in downtown, you don't know where it is.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by biker

You are absolutely right that it's full of asbestos. I repeated the quote to demonstrate the lengths to which developers and their sycophantic enablers will will go to lie to you in pushing their agenda to build the next project.



so now asbestos is safe according to the uninspired and naysaying biker?

get real dude, you're chronic negativity along with your anti social and anti establishment approach to life gets beyond belief at times.

Misery sure runs deep in your camp.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by therising
On what knowledge do you base this? Are you that familiar with downtown Real Estate values?

Besides, the building has a lot of unusable space (large vaults, etc) that diminish the value greatly.

The federal Reserve Building was aggressively marketed and its going to require another $50 to $75 per square foot to put in top rentable shape. But its a better than fair deal and I'm delighted its in private hands now that the reserve bank vacated.

And its got great parking, its prominent, its incredibly well positioned and its flexible. Its a hell of a deal in my opinion for the passive aggressive Ciminelli. In fact, if it were to go through the market again, it would fetch substantially more dollars I would bet.

And the desirability of the soon to be marketed Dulski Building is positively impacted by the Ciminelli commitment with the reserve bank refit.

Things are damned exciting downtown right now. And transfer fees/taxes are flowing like our Niagara.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by therising
Linda, on the other hand is no surprise. Your constant "Why does everything have to be downtown?" posts have made your stance clear. But now, you're taking it one step further. You are trying to use rationale to show why Cities, in general are dinosaurs. Using your rationale, maybe I'll get rid of my dog for a virtual pet. Maybe I'll NEVER call my mother again, because I can just text message her.

Linda - don't use technology as a means for forgoing human interaction.

No, therising, that's not what I said. I gave reasons why downtown business districts as they existed in the past (1890s-1950) can no longer be what they were 60 years ago. Technology is only one part of the changes that should transform downtowns into something else. What's happened in many cities, especially in Buffalo, is that so many resources have been poured into trying to keep downtowns functioning as they did a half century earlier that there's nothing left to keep cities livable -- hence the huge population losses.

While I'm not necessarily opposed to spending public money on any "economic develop" project (as biker is), I am opposed to spending more public money on "economic develop" in downtown Buffalo -- downtown "revitalization" -- (ie, Bass Pro, etc) because it hasn't worked! There has not been a single project done in downtown Buffalo that has delivered on its propenents' promises in forty years.

Finally, embracing technology does not mean embracing isolation. Telecommuting can mean that a young mother can stay at home with her newborn an extra three months rather than returning to the office after six week maternity leave. Virtual meetings can mean that work groups in different cities or states meet without one group traveling hundreds or thousands of miles for the meeting, saving time and money, and distance learning can enable high school students in a small rural school district to take an advanced math class that their own school doesn't offer.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Buff Lifer
Let me first make very clear that I am not that person you are referring to ( I believe it was Linda), but, I remember reading in the News that the Dulski building was full of asbestos and that was the reason it was being demolished. I aagree its a beautiful building.

I never said anything about the Dulski building. I mentioned the new federal courthouse, but I have no idea why the feds need a new one or what will happen to the old one.

I think the knowledgeable one who claimed the Dulski building was at the end of its useful life was Boost Buffalo.

[biker]

Save your breath, Linda. They can't make money off of telecommuting or anything like that. So they'll paint you as meanspirited/naysayer/backwards/shoeless/toothless.

Right on for me, though. No government money for any economic development.

I'm an investor. I put money where I expect results. Government initiatives over the past forty years have produced such miserable results that I don't want any of my money spent by these morons.

I'll just give two examples in Buffalo: subway and CDBG funds. $1.0 Billion. Wasted.

Cut taxes and let investors make their own decisions.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by biker
Save your breath, Linda. They can't make money off of telecommuting or anything like that. So they'll paint you as meanspirited/naysayer/backwards/shoeless/toothless.



telecommuting?? you think this is about that? LOL

It appears you dont like the fact that there's a market driven commercial desire downtown, so you advocate telecommuting and sprawl. You're a scream.

[WestCoastPerspective]

[i] There has not been a single project done in downtown Buffalo that has delivered on its propenents' promises in forty years.

One word for you:
Sheas

[Boost Buffalo]

"There has not been a single project done in downtown Buffalo that has delivered on its propenents' promises in forty years."


whoever made that above statement, please inform us as to the projects that were failures. Other than the work in progress never completed jim Griffin mass transit rail system.

do tell

[WestCoastPerspective]

there have been 'failures'....
careful, Linda has put a caveat on that question..."proponents promises"

Its really a dumb question. Remember- the Thruway Mall, Seneca Mall, Summit Park and Appletree Malls were a success at one time too. OK- they weren't subsidized, but the premise is the same.

[Trolls_r_us]

Elmwood village and the revamped theatre district are failures now?

wow how quickly things deteriorate... I was just down there a couple months ago

[buffy]

The Erie Basin Marina is a success (as far as marinas go), and the marina condos.

[biker]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
there have been 'failures'....
careful, Linda has put a caveat on that question..."proponents promises"

Its really a dumb question. Remember- the Thruway Mall, Seneca Mall, Summit Park and Appletree Malls were a success at one time too. OK- they weren't subsidized, but the premise is the same.

No, They were unaldulterated successes. They were completely private money.

If you want to buy a piece of property and do just about anything to it, that's your business. Whether it makes money or not.

[biker]

Originally posted by Trolls_r_us
Elmwood village and the revamped theatre district are failures now?

wow how quickly things deteriorate... I was just down there a couple months ago

You walk through the buildings in the Theater District. You call that a success!!!???

Half empty buildings with those that are there being way below market rents charged to not for profit parasites.

You'd have put your own money into half-baked (and I'm being generous in that) schemes.

Look folks. The public sector is led by morons.

But puh leeze keep trying to come up with good examples.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by biker
You walk through the buildings in the Theater District. You call that a success!!!???

Half empty buildings with those that are there being way below market rents charged to not for profit parasites.



half empty and occupied by low rent not-for profits? oh really? which buildings are these you refer? I cant think of one that fits that lowly description.

And the empty ones are on the verge of activity too, give them a chance, obviously there's interest now. Crying isnt the answer.

[bflonum1fan]

What a thread ! Glad I found it.

WCP said :
Linda = bigot

I gotta jump in here and say that just because Linda said what is fact does not make her a bigot. It makes her a realist. To deny these issues (from her original post) and classify it as bigotry IS the problem around here. It has been since the 50's and will continue to be unless people are not degraded and belittled for telling the truth.

Unless we acknowledge the problems, we cannot solve the problems. Apparently WCP equates race with pit bulls and drugs. Linda didn't say that, but WCP did.

Go figure !

[WNYresident]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
so now asbestos is safe according to the uninspired and naysaying biker?

get real dude, you're chronic negativity along with your anti social and anti establishment approach to life gets beyond belief at times.

Misery sure runs deep in your camp.

is it encased in stuff? or is there asbestos just laying all over the place there?

[WestSideJohn]

Half empty buildings with those that are there being way below market rents charged to not for profit parasites. I work for one of those not-for-profit "parasites" you mention. We rent space - quite a bit of it, in fact - at <i>full</i> market value in downtown Buffalo, Niagara Falls, and Jamestown. In addition, we've purchased vacant, derelict properties and renovated them for additional office space, even winning a few preservation awards along the way. Buffalo could use more "parasites" like that.

[WNYresident]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
telecommuting?? you think this is about that? LOL

It appears you dont like the fact that there's a market driven commercial desire downtown, so you advocate telecommuting and sprawl. You're a scream.


When the market isn't driven by giving tax discounts or the tax payers money then it will something to brag about.

[WNYresident]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
I work for one of those not-for-profit "parasites" you mention. We rent space - quite a bit of it, in fact - at <i>full</i> market value in downtown Buffalo, Niagara Falls, and Jamestown. In addition, we've purchased vacant, derelict properties and renovated them for additional office space, even winning a few preservation awards along the way. Buffalo could use more "parasites" like that.

Do the buildings your occupy pay property tax?

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Do the buildings your occupy pay property tax? Absolutely. We're tenants, just like anyone else, and our landlords pay taxes just like any property owner would. As for the two facilities we own outright, I don't know if we pay property taxes. It's very possible that we don't. But even if we don't, I think we deserve a bit of credit for rescuing two vacant buildings (one of which, a private residence built in the mid 1800s, was vacant for close to 20 years) and turning them into thriving, usable space.

And, just for reference, the two buildings we own outright probably contain a total of about 10-15% of the square footage that we rent.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WNYresident
When the market isn't driven by giving tax discounts or the tax payers money then it will something to brag about.

the fact we can provide tax relief to industry is something to brag about. We need to yell it out in fact.

Industry brings jobs, jobs bring cash flow. Cash flow brings happiness to the taxpayer. You dig?

Forget the need to tax the hell out of industry, its a bad concept.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Every business, store or person living or operating in the city is a success story. Every office building more than 75 percent occupied is a success story. Every brownfield or vacant lot that is redeveloped is a success story. When a condemned building is demolished, thats a success story. The list can go on forever....to say there has been no progress or success is good old fashioned Buffalo pessimism. Woe is us, the private sector is the answer, blah blah blah. Rudnick and his private sector cronies are as much to blame as the hated politicians for the mess this area is in.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WNYresident
is it encased in stuff? or is there asbestos just laying all over the place there?

what? Lol no, I dont think its "just laying all over the place there" but it may be, due to the era the floor was constructed.

Much of the building's walls, floors, ceilings and fire proofing and insulation contain asbestos and all the electrical transformers, from the primaries to the lighting ballasts, contain PCBs. Its all got to go. The building will be gutted and shelled. When finished, you can eat off the floor it'll be so clean.

Soon you'll see the projected costs involved once the bid documents are completed, if they arent already. But its going to be an expensive abatement for sure. And bound by Davis-Bacon too for that matter and OSHA and EPA and scooby doo and etc etc etc

[biker]

Like is much better with Boost on Ignore.

WestCoast-

Don't identify me with Rudnick. His big business buddies are the types that are willing to cut deals with the politicians who dole out the goodies.

I'm in favor of private development where people risk their own funds. Viritually any decision they make is better than any public sector decision for two reasons. One-they are risking their own dough and won't spend it on a whim. Two-they are risking their own dough.

The theater district is a HUGE waste of money. $50,000,000 spent there. Look at that number again. Shea's seems to be generating the types of spin-offs hoped for. And people posting here have said that Shea's did not even get much of the public largesse lavished on the theater district.

But the rest of it. Look at that number again: $50,000,000. For what. For a group of buildings to house a few not for profits.

$50,000,000

[therising]

When non-profits are rationalized as being "parasites", we're never going to get anywhere in this City.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by therising
When non-profits are rationalized as being "parasites", we're never going to get anywhere in this City.

luckily only those with extreme loser mentalities refer to those specific entities as "parasites".

[bflonum1fan]

Is this $ 50,000,000 part of the $ 500,000,000 (or thereabouts) that the News says has been spent over the past 20 years ?

Dunn Tire Park, HSBC arena, are probably in the mix as well. While these may not be profit makers, they do add to the feasability of a 'future' downtown.

Replace the light rail with a paved road and we might get somewhere.

[biker]

I believe the $50 million is part of the $50 million.

I don't think Dunn or HSBC are part of it.

[bflonum1fan]

Biker, don't you ever sleep ?

:)

[biker]

Not much

[Boost Buffalo]

The Market Arcade is no doubt part of the proclaimed public waste that biker with his loser mentality refers.

But with all the massive private development that occurred over there ie City Centre, Key Towers, Radisson Suites, Goldome Headquarters (now M&T), Fountain Plaza etc, it was necessary to either demolish the world's first "mall" or restore it to its glorious past. Our boys made the right decision on this one, for a change, by preserving it.

The Market Arcade property is truly a City treasure and is important. We'll eventually see this return to self sustained economic viabilty on its own too as the market down there takes hold. Its not far off now.

Maybe its time to transfer that Market Arcade property to private ownership. This is over due.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
Every business, store or person living or operating in the city is a success story. Every office building more than 75 percent occupied is a success story. Every brownfield or vacant lot that is redeveloped is a success story. When a condemned building is demolished, thats a success story. The list can go on forever....to say there has been no progress or success is good old fashioned Buffalo pessimism. Woe is us, the private sector is the answer, blah blah blah. Rudnick and his private sector cronies are as much to blame as the hated politicians for the mess this area is in.

I don't think so, WestCoast ---> Frankie Boy (http://www.kernwatch.com/housingvaluesparlato.html)

[WestCoastPerspective]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
The Market Arcade is no doubt part of the proclaimed public waste that biker with his loser mentality refers.

The Market Arcade property is truly a City treasure and is important. We'll eventually see this return to self sustained economic viabilty on its own too as the market down there takes hold. Its not far off now.

Maybe its time to transfer that Market Arcade property to private ownership. This is over due.

Yes, the Market Arcade was a money pit, that was part of the $50 million. And it should be sold, this is the building that Biker uses as an example of being full of non-profits (I guess you could lump Empire State College in there too), which it mostly is, but they are paying rent. Other federal money spent there included buying and demolishing the corner of Main/Chippewa for the Radisson Suites. The hotel was subsidized, I believe with an Urban Dev. Action Grant (UDAG). So were the cinemas. Other subsidized projects were Theater Place, Irish Classical Theater and the apartments upstairs, and Ansonia Centre apartments. What was beyond dumb was giving loans to restaurants. The failure rate is normally high in any location but downtown is even more risky. Case in point, the City was stiffed when Breckenridge closed shop. I think City Centre was also subsidized, the first phase anyway.

The one thing the News article didn't break out is how much of this $50 million was given to the City from HUD for specific projects. Meaning the city applied to Washington in a competition with other cities, the money didn't come from the bucket the City gets annually. If we didn't apply, the money never would have come here in the first place, thus it never could have been used on the East Side for instance. UDAGs are project-specific: Ansonia, Hyatt Hotel, Olympic Towers, Market Arcade were all UDAGs. This money couldn't be spent anywhere else, if the projects didn't go through, the money would go back to HUD. UDAGs were killed around 1990 I believe. So the arguement that we neglected neighborhoods because all of this money was wasted downtown isn't totally accurate.

[Shovel ready]

Biker said:



The theater district is a HUGE waste of money. $50,000,000 spent there. Look at that number again. Shea's seems to be generating the types of spin-offs hoped for. And people posting here have said that Shea's did not even get much of the public largesse lavished on the theater district.


What about all the bars as restaraunts that theater patrons visit after the show? Are you forgetting this? Many a private enterprise has flourished beacuse of the theater district. Small businesses--exactly what this area needs.

[biker]

Westcoast:

Since I have BB on ignore, try not to quote him too much. Simple trash talk is worth ignoring.

Everytime I ride the subway to the Library, my first site coming out of the tunnel is American Youth Hostel and the Market Arcade.

Yes beautiful buildings. I've eaten in the Arcade (have either of you two?).

But what a crazy expenditure in a City and a County that can't keep roads paved or the parks open.

That's all.

And before you guys go debase yourselves like Henry Nowak, federal and state dollars count as waste too. I believe we pay state and federal taxes.

[Linda_D]

All these projects that have been mentioned, and some you all forgot, like Main Place Mall, raising the roof on Memorial Aud, the convention center, the new downtown hotels were all supposed to "turn downtown around", and by doing that, "turn Buffalo around". Well, it never happened. Not forty years ago. Not thirty. Not twenty. Not ten years ago.

Gee whiz, but there's a housing boom in downtown Buffalo, so surely downtown and the city are going to turn around! With a demand for 375 apartments, condos, etc a year and being generous, let's say that translates into adding 1,000 people a year to downtown. In those same 5 years though, about 5,000 people a year are likely to leave Buffalo, so the net result is that Buffalo ends up with 20,000 fewer people in 2010 than it has today.

Let's all put our faith in the same kind of projects that have failed for the previous forty years!

[biker]

Originally posted by Linda_D
I don't think so, WestCoast ---> Frankie Boy (http://www.kernwatch.com/housingvaluesparlato.html)

Linda:

I can't believe you found this.

But you have to refer to him as Saint Frank Parlato.

Remember. He resurfaces every seven years (like the plague) and wows some cub reporter at The News.

Didja know he used to be a Bhuddist monk. How can this guy be bad?

Didja know he fixes up homes on the East Side for po' folk?

Guess he wore out his "welcome" at The News, 'cause he's down peddling his schlock in Niagara Falls.

Do you think he's responsible for hundreds of abandoned homes on the East Side or just dozens?

[biker]

Originally posted by Gabe
Biker said:



What about all the bars as restaraunts that theater patrons visit after the show? Are you forgetting this? Many a private enterprise has flourished beacuse of the theater district. Small businesses--exactly what this area needs.

Gabe:

I gave credit where credit is due. Read my post again.

Even where credit might not be due. I've not heard of any cost-benefit analysis on the investment in Sheas.

But I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for that.

[bflonum1fan]

You don't think that this $ 50,000,000 and more likely $ 1/2 Billion (over 20 years) is tied in with the current EC deficits of either $50 or $ 100 Million, depending on whose numbers we believe ?

Just like to keep the pot stirred !

:rolleyes:

[biker]

Nah.

I think your key phrase is "current".

They already blew the $500 million years ago.

The ballooning County fiasco is all home grown, right now.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Linda- what exactly is your "plan" besides fix the schools and plow roads?

Whoever is quoted as saying x, y or z project is going to turn the city around is a liar- most likely you're quoting politicians in general. Its a bunch of small projects that will make any difference- no one project. I can't think of any one project anywhere that is credited with turning a city around (the only thing close would be the Harbor Place project in Baltimore which combined with the acquarium sparked a downtown rebirth). No, a few thousand new residents downtown isn't going to change much, but its 1000's more than are there now. At this point, we should be cheering for any positives. If none of these projects happened where would downtown be? It would look like the East Side, is that what you're advocating? Where do we start turning this city around- besides the "less taxes" and "better schools" slogans. That takes year....what can we do now?

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
Linda- what exactly is your "plan" besides fix the schools and plow roads?

Whoever is quoted as saying x, y or z project is going to turn the city around is a liar- most likely you're quoting politicians in general. Its a bunch of small projects that will make any difference- no one project. I can't think of any one project anywhere that is credited with turning a city around (the only thing close would be the Harbor Place project in Baltimore which combined with the acquarium sparked a downtown rebirth). No, a few thousand new residents downtown isn't going to change much, but its 1000's more than are there now. At this point, we should be cheering for any positives. If none of these projects happened where would downtown be? It would look like the East Side, is that what you're advocating? Where do we start turning this city around- besides the "less taxes" and "better schools" slogans. That takes year....what can we do now?

How about making people like Scott Wizig and Frank Parlato Jr's lives as slumlords hell??? Biker lives in Parkside, and he got cited for a cracked window in his garage. When I owned a home in the Grant-Amherst area, I got cited for having three bales of straw in the backyard that my tenant used for practicing with his bow. In the meantime, Parlato and others of his ilk never get cited, and if they do on that rare occaision, they never get dragged into court. There seems to be only one housing court judge -- Nowak? -- that takes code enforcement seriously.

Heck, when I lived in suburban Albany, my town took code enforcement seriously. You got cited, you had 30 days to remedy the problem, after that the fines started multiplying. At $500 a day and possible jail time, even Frankie P would lose interest in scamming real estate in Buffalo!

[crlachepinochet]

Anyone that complains about the people moving downtown has pretty much lost it. Maybe there's an argument that I'm overlooking, but here's how I see it:

-many of the residents come from the suburbs, so it's not just shifting people around inside the city
-very little government money involved, no parterships for downtown residential development or anything like that... market-driven stuff
-sprouting locally-owned business like the Washington Market
-reusing old buildings and keeping around some of the 'architectural heritage' that everyone talks about
-bringing life to an area of the city that was dead on weekends and past 5

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by crlachepinochet
Anyone that complains about the people moving downtown has pretty much lost it. Maybe there's an argument that I'm overlooking, but here's how I see it:

-many of the residents come from the suburbs, so it's not just shifting people around inside the city
-very little government money involved, no parterships for downtown residential development or anything like that... market-driven stuff
-sprouting locally-owned business like the Washington Market
-reusing old buildings and keeping around some of the 'architectural heritage' that everyone talks about
-bringing life to an area of the city that was dead on weekends and past 5

The problem, crlache, is the "very little government money". All of these projects get either tax breaks or actual subsidies, and those from developers with the "right" connections might get both, to the detriment of other, more beneficial uses for it. How about giving tax breaks to landlords in the rest of the city who improve their rental properties? How about subsidies for some brave folks who want to try urban homesteading on the Lower West Side or in Polonia?

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by Linda_D
The problem, crlache, is the "very little government money". All of these projects get either tax breaks or actual subsidies, and those from developers with the "right" connections might get both, to the detriment of other, more beneficial uses for it. How about giving tax breaks to landlords in the rest of the city who improve their rental properties? How about subsidies for some brave folks who want to try urban homesteading on the Lower West Side or in Polonia?

Last I checked GEICO recieved a very generous subsidy package for plopping a sprawling complex on a suburban Amherst greenfield site. (crosspoint business park, owned by Ciminelli I believe..) Not only that but they finagled an empire zone designation for their site (those benifits are earmarked for DISTRESSED AREA). I never knew Northern Amherst was considered distressed....

I don't see you whining about that. If you are going to attack government subsidies please be consistent in whom you attack.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by Gabe
Last I checked GEICO recieved a very generous subsidy package for plopping a sprawling complex on a suburban Amherst greenfield site. (crosspoint business park, owned by Ciminelli I believe..) Not only that but they finagled an empire zone designation for their site (those benifits are earmarked for DISTRESSED AREA). I never knew Northern Amherst was considered distressed....

I don't see you whining about that. If you are going to attack government subsidies please be consistent in whom you attack.

Gabe, how about you read posts before inserting your boot in your mouth? I didn't say I was against government subsidies. I've never said that. In fact, in the post you quoted, I asked about tax breaks and subsidies for redevelopment in other parts of the city.

You keep trying to paint me as anti-city when what I am is anti-downtown "revitalization", which is a never-ending saga of one project after another that fails to deliver the goods as advertised. You might as well just flush tax dollars down the toilet.

Moreover, the only people who have benefitted from downtown "revitalization" have been the developers, the downtown property owners, and their political enablers while the city ignores the rest of the city.

People don't move out of Buffalo for the 'burbs because there's not enough "high-end luxury" housing in downtown or because there's not enough "going on" in downtown after dark.

[Boost Buffalo]

Buffalo is going well, like it or not. The deterioration in checked and we're moving forward. The market for all of Buffalo is rebounding beautifully. Downtown included.

North Buffalo retail is breaking records again and my hats off to Nate for the beautiful job he's doing there. Its all market driven and 100% private funded, as is our downtown developments currently under way.

Things are improving, so why the constant belittlement of buffalo and only referring to past troubles?

Smart money believes in Buffalo again, like it or not.

[buffy]

Things are improving, so why the constant belittlement of buffalo and only referring to past troubles?

Past troubles you mean like this mornings headline:
County's fiscal fortunes declining, yet school spending keeps rising

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Buff Lifer
Past troubles you mean like this mornings headline:
County's fiscal fortunes declining, yet school spending keeps rising

No, not like that at all, yours is a whole different matter.

On a brighter note, the Hertel Avenue commercial strip seems to be full, or near full. Amazed how all those storefronts are filled back up. It looks good.

[buffy]

I was being sarcastic, I guess I should have rolled my eyes. :rolleyes:

[Boost Buffalo]

some joke...just kidding, but you're right, our union owned and operated schools in the city are bad news. Nothing but bad news.

Maybe the new fellow will surprise us.

[crlachepinochet]

Originally posted by Linda_D
The problem, crlache, is the "very little government money". All of these projects get either tax breaks or actual subsidies, and those from developers with the "right" connections might get both, to the detriment of other, more beneficial uses for it. How about giving tax breaks to landlords in the rest of the city who improve their rental properties? How about subsidies for some brave folks who want to try urban homesteading on the Lower West Side or in Polonia?

As far as I'm aware, the only government money going into the residential and small commercial developments have been Empire Zone and some historic preservation tax breaks... either one time or temporary breaks, I believe. That's nowhere near the 49 years free rent that Bass Pro gets (I know it's a dollar per year, but I wouldn't be surprised if our gov't didn't even bother to collect that). Furthermore, these financial incentives aren't the result of someone being connected (again, please correct me if I'm wrong), but I think these same breaks would be available to anyone who put this kind of effort into an Empire Zone area.

Compare that to Geico, where Empire Zone credits were transferred from Tonawanda to encourage development in a place where the Empire Zone benefits were never meant to be used. To justify this, Geico puts a bunch of people from the city on a school bus every day drives them out to Getzville. That's the same thing as locating those 2,500 jobs in an already developed area, isn't it?

[WestCoastPerspective]

Most of the residential projects downtown aren't receiving tax breaks. Sidway at one time was going to use HOME funds, but was found to be ineligible so they went with private financing. Holling received historic preservation tax credits- its a tax write off created by the federal goverment. Elk Terminal didn't receive anything and I don't think Paladino received any tax breaks for his Bergers project besides getting the building for $1. Burke is getting IDA financing for his two next projects: Ellicott Commons and Oak School Lofts:

Ellicott Lofts III, L.L.C.
362 Oak, L.L.C.
_
Project Address
362 Oak Street
461-475 Ellicott Street
266 Oak Street
Buffalo, New York
_
Proposed Project
Acquisition of existing 18,000 +/- sq. ft. building, construction of renovations to convert into approximately 24 apartment units and other building and site improvements; acquisition of existing buildings aggregating 76,200 +/- sq. ft. and renovation to construct approximately 34 apartment units, office and retail space and other related improvements; acquisition of former school building, 50,000 +/- sq. ft., and conversion into approximately 29 apartments and 4,200 sq. ft. of office space and related building and site improvements; and acquisition and installation of machinery and equipment for residential, retail and commercial purposes.

On projects such as this, I believe they get reductions on the sales tax paid on construction materials.

[biker]

I think it's great that those projects are being done with a minimum of tax breaks. I guess minimum is about as good as I can hope for.

I think these small, focused projects are leading the path towards the future of downtown. The fact that they're mostly done with private money means they have a higher chance for success. I just hope that they don't have any of these PILOTs and that they won't be paying property taxes for X years.

Building by building, block by block. That's the way downtown will be "brought back". But it will not look or act like it did fifty or seventy years ago. Not quickly reborn, but solidly.

[citymouse]

I still think block by block this city has to bring the neighborhoods back. This is as important as down town If you want a strong urban core yoy have to have strong residential sections people want to live in.
If Buffalo has proved one thing, it proved you can't maintain a vibrant city when every body with a job lives out side of it.

[biker]

I agree with you completely, Citymouse.

I didn't mean downtown first.

The wonderkids that work downtown have lived outside the City for at least the past 45 years.

Guys like you and me have stayed. Kept our neighborhoods intact.

Now they're commissioning "experts" to tell them why North Buffalo and South Buffalo are thriving.

Sheesh

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Linda_D
The problem, crlache, is the "very little government money". All of these projects get either tax breaks or actual subsidies, and those from developers with the "right" connections might get both, to the detriment of other, more beneficial uses for it.

Moreover, the only people who have benefitted from downtown "revitalization" have been the developers, the downtown property owners, and their political enablers while the city ignores the rest of the city.

thats an irresponsible and definitely misguided statement as usual, and you sound like biker dude, Linda. Lol

Obviously you have no experience academically or practically, no real exposure, no understanding of the process and no achievements (or failures) and again no experience in any way shape or form in the industry, like the biker dude. Yet you believe you know all the answers, all the problems, all the nuances and risks, procedures, and all the corruption. Your analogies are remarkably foolish and damn simple minded. Lol

Linda, just like your insistance that Marine Drive complex is a co-op ownership, which I'm now convinced you never even understood the meaning of the term. Yet, you went on and on and on with your false misguided crap.

Linda, and biker dude, you guys haven't a clue, just negative and misguided spew. Why? Because what you dont understand you choose to kick and accuse. Its not unusual for the sadly miserable underachievers to act out that way. Bring down everybody is your inner motto.

Please forgive my thinking out loud.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Originally posted by citymouse
I still think block by block this city has to bring the neighborhoods back. This is as important as down town If you want a strong urban core yoy have to have strong residential sections people want to live in.
If Buffalo has proved one thing, it proved you can't maintain a vibrant city when every body with a job lives out side of it.

So true. There's an old saying, "The best housing program is a jobs program." As Linda has pointed out, the ravaged East Side is a mess for the most part. Why? Income, jobs, lack of maintenance and old homes. Even the new builds aren't worth the price they've been built for. But with so much vacant land, new construction is necessary. I've always been intrigued about the idea of vacating targeted areas of the city- where there are few homes, removing the streets and letting nature takes its course. Thoughts???

[biker]

You might want to rethink your idea WCP.

That was my suggestion of a couple of months ago. I guess "abandoning" (no, not on the County roads thread) these already-vacated blocks doesn't sound as dreamy as "fostering greenspace", but the idea is the same.

Let the areas lie fallow. Allow the City to stop providing costly services (garbage, plowing) and let nature takes its course.

That's economic nature as well as Mother Nature.

If there's to be a future in these areas, let fate take its course. If there's any economic value left in them for redeveopment, let it occur.

If there's nothing of economic value left, let it revert back to the way it looked in the 18th century (Senecas didn't settle here till 1780). That's not so bad, either.

[bflonum1fan]

[B Let's start by paving the streets ![/B]

[citymouse]

Neighborhoods with Lots of green space (i.e. the old village green) shops and community centers.
Bigger lots.
This could work on the sections of the city like Sycamore and Broadway where ther are large amounts of empty land.
Suburban style residental streets.
Why not.
Do a small block area once at a time.
They could start right down on William there is allready a newer Neighborhood between clinton and William extending from Michigan to Pine.
They could eliminate some streets. some only have one or two houses on them.
I am not an urban plannerbut it seems to me they could come up with something.
I would have rather seen that then a Tomato plant that isn't there any more or a brew pub that disappeared in the night.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by bflonum1fan
[B Let's start by paving the streets ! [/B]

reminds me when President Bush was back in town recently at Klienhans. In the rude absense of our snubbing failed mayor, Bush said "and Buffalo, fix your potholes and clean up your garbage." He said that on stage facing where the snubbing mayor was supposed to be standing, while national TV cameras were rolling. It was a sad moment.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Originally posted by Boost Buffalo
reminds me when President Bush was back in town recently at Klienhans. In the rude absense of our snubbing failed mayor, Bush said "and Buffalo, fix your potholes and clean up your garbage." He said that on stage facing where the snubbing mayor was supposed to be standing, while national TV cameras were rolling. It was a sad moment.

Did he really say that?!?! F'n jerk.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by citymouse
Neighborhoods with Lots of green space (i.e. the old village green) shops and community centers.
Bigger lots.
This could work on the sections of the city like Sycamore and Broadway where ther are large amounts of empty land.
Suburban style residental streets.



that is a nice idea. They could sell those lots for a dollar to the adjacent home owners and get them back into private property owner's hands. As is, they arent worth a dollar, even since they've been cleared and leveled.

And we're currently in the final phase of a large publicly funded east side demolition program thats doing a hell of nice job, so even more will soon be available. Suburban sized lots on the east side, thats a good plan.

East side is looking better and better. And our new hugely expanded medical research and hospital district could single handidly make the fruitbelt desirable again. Could you imagine?

A lot of positive things are underway.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
Did he really say that?!?! F'n jerk.

yeah, both of them were being jerks. And Bush really did say it after the mayor really did snubb him. It pissed Bush off I suppose.

[moadib]

THANK YOU BOOST BUFFALO FOR COMING TO THE SAME CONCLUSION ABOUT LINDA AS I DID

The Marina Apartments should be sold and put on the property tax roles, as well as, all BMHA owned property.

Secondly closing off neighborhoods and letting them go fallow, its been done in other cities but they dont remain empty lots very long....why...because once the services are closed and the people are gone ... those large tracts of land become safe for residential development, business/office parks, light industrial or commercial/retail.

PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE EAST SIDE BEING UNSAFE BUT ITS JUST A FEW PEOPLE THAT ARE CAUSING THE CRIME....SO PUT VIDEO CAMERAS ON THE HIGHEST CRIME STREETS....SURVEY THE NEIGHBORHOOD 24 HOURS A DAY AND THEY WILL MOVE....

THE EAST SIDE HISTORICIALLY HAS SOME GREAT ARCHITECTURE AND CULTURAL LANDMARKS PLUS IT HAS SOME OF THE BEST TRANSPORTATION WITH BROAD EAST-WEST BOULEVARDS THAT WOULD SUPPORT REDEVELOPMENT.

THE EAST SIDE HAS ALOT OF POTENTIAL AND WITH DOWNTOWN BUFFALO GROWING SOUTH TOWARD THE WATERFRONT AND EAST TOWARD THE AIRPORT....ITS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME.

FYI: THE NORTHERN CORRIDOR IS EXPENSIVE AND MUCH OF IT IS HISTORICAL....LIMITING GROWTH IN THE NORTHERN CORRIDOR.

[bflonum1fan]

I agree with Bush if he really said that, especially the streets. Although I don't think the garbage is that bad. Did the mayor really boycott Bush ? Assuming that he did, it was a classless act. It's no wonder the 2 main political parties can't communicate and have to use news conferences to blast one another.

Most of the city streets make Buffalo look like a 3rd world country. Except for the suburbs, the roads here are pathetic. The money for Bass Pro could probably pave over Main St, Broadway, Walden, Seneca, South Park, and Sycamore, and have money left to maintain some of the non-Olmsted parks.

It's really a question of priorities and judgment. If anyone thinks that people are going to flock to Bass Pro, I say, get off the damn weed ! Use the Bass Pro money and [B]PAVE THE F'N STREETS[/].
Maybe those $ 7/ hr jobs at Bass Pro are just too tempting.

[citymouse]

Originally posted by bflonum1fan
Most of the city streets make Buffalo look like a 3rd world country. .


Right. Like I said before, the East and Lwer west sides of Buffalo are like a third world country with out the slave wage manufacturring jobs.

[biker]

Sorry to break with the current tenor of the thread, but I was just amazed at the number of things going on in Buffalo this morning.

I promised to take the missus to that Junior League Open House. On our way through Parkside, I saw a line of people waiting outside Good Shepherd. I asked them what they were giving away. They said they were waiting in line to sign up for the Parkside Summer Camp.

Getting off the Sqaj., we were surprised that the parking lot for the Art Gallery was pretty much full. Must be something going on there.

Behind the Art Gallery, the parking was all full there, too. Security guys standing outside the Delaware Casino; must be something doing there.

The Open House was pretty full, even though the weather was bad. We had to drive a couple of blocks to find a place to park. Walking to the House, we saw most of the cars had bright orange envelopes on the windshields. "Just like the City" says I "to ticket all of these people." My wife looked and they were slingers for a restaurant. Bad attitude on my part.

Driving back, the Martin House had a couple of buses out front and lots of cars parked on the street. Must be another tour there.

We're going to the Historical Society tomorrow for a lecture on Peter Porter. We're gonna go a little early, 'cause after today it might be crowded.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Great story biker. Cultural tourism is going to be a growth industry in Bflo....when is the Martin House renovation going to be done? Sheesh- its taking longer to restore than to build! There's no reason for it not to be in every major newspaper when it opens. Did they even start the visitors' center yet? When it opens, they should also organize tours of the city's old churches, downtown and allentown walking tours, underground railroad tours, and working waterfront/Erie Canal Harbor tours. Combine that with Niagara Falls, a show at Sheas or a sporting event, and you can get people here for 2-3 day stays easy.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by biker
Sorry to break with the current tenor of the thread, but I was just amazed at the number of things going on in Buffalo this morning.



wow, what's this? the kinder gentler, more sensible biker? You mean you actually have something positive to say about Buffalo?Pleased to meet you.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by moadib


The Marina Apartments should be sold and put on the property tax roles, as well as, all BMHA owned property.



Couldnt agree with you more, moadib, especially with Marine Drive.

Those 600 waterfront units should be marketed and sold immediately as a single property, and then perhaps resold as market rate condos or co-op apartments. Or even rental apartments, as long as its market rate to maximize assessed value.

Highest and best use is high-end condominiums, no doubt.

The city taxpayers heavily subsidizing waterfront marina apartment lifestyles is just not sensible. And we've been doing it for decades, dammit. We've got to sell that property.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Without a total strip-to-the-steel redevelopment, Marine Drive will never be "high end." I don't know what the unit sizes are, but for a one bedroom, don't count on more than $75,000 if they were converted to condo. The one bedrooms in Admirals Walk resale for less than $100k and those are much newer, have better views, and have enclosed parking. And 600 units is almost double what exists in Waterfront Village today. It would really test the market, even if they combined units and put 400 up for sale.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by biker
On our way through Parkside, I saw a line of people waiting outside Good Shepherd. I asked them what they were giving away. They said they were waiting in line to sign up for the Parkside Summer Camp.
The Parkside Summer Arts Program is a wonderful children's program run by the Parkside Community Association, one of those "parasite" not-for-profit agencies you're so down on (I do volunteer work for the PCA, by the way).

[citymouse]

Those are the kinds of things I would like to see downtown on the inner harbor. Lectures on the early history of the waterfront. Maybe the grain milling history. Great lakes shipping and the Erie canal.
There is no shortage of photographs of the working waterfront either, going all the way back to the 1850's.

[citymouse]

I was refering to Bikers comments.

[biker]

Originally posted by citymouse
Those are the kinds of things I would like to see downtown on the inner harbor. Lectures on the early history of the waterfront. Maybe the grain milling history. Great lakes shipping and the Erie canal.
There is no shortage of photographs of the working waterfront either, going all the way back to the 1850's.

Yeah, I don't see why there has to be a "museum" in the traditional sense downtown.

Why don't they recreate the terminus of the Erie Canal, complete with the businesses in period buildings that were on there (sans cathouses of course). But they would be real businesses, with a twist.

For instance, there'd be an actual funcitoning bank branch, but the people might dress like the 1830s. Have real shops there. OK, they might be selling T shirts and doo dads like Baltimore's harbour front shops, but it would be a self-sustaining recreation.

Restaurants and taverns with period dress would be a natural and the theme would serve to differentiate them from the hundreds of restaurants already here.

And there is a place for an actual Erie Canal/Great Lakes traditional museum---and the Erie Canal Museum in Syracuse (complete with a packet boat) is a good example.

[biker]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
The Parkside Summer Arts Program is a wonderful children's program run by the Parkside Community Association, one of those "parasite" not-for-profit agencies you're so down on (I do volunteer work for the PCA, by the way).

You'd be surprised at the characters who support the PCA.

But I'll stand by my comments on the Theater District. There is something very very wrong in any thought-process that spends $50,000,000 on redeveloping a one block area and the only tenants they can find are below market not for profits.

If you are fortunate enough to ever come in to $50,000,000 (look long and hard how big that number is and relate it to your own personal finances) is that the type of investment you would put it in?

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
Without a total strip-to-the-steel redevelopment, Marine Drive will never be "high end."

dont be so sure, look at 1088 Delaware Ave. The old Benderson project. Same era high rise built with section 8 specs (low ceilings etc). Some partitioning was removed to make more spacious contempory layouts and kitchens and baths were mostly replaced with an upgrade, and all new finishes. Now they're condos in demand. The developer did good, real good.

With a clever architect Marine Drive would be transformed into beautiful mid-level and upscale owner occupied units, cost effectively no doubt. Assessed values would be tremendous. Especially when our downtown waterfront restoration gets underway.

Right now, Marine Drive is a taxpayer owned and subsidized rental facility with no assessed value, none. We pay, in other words, for the waterfront lifestyle of its occupants. And they live very very cheaply there.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by citymouse
Those are the kinds of things I would like to see downtown on the inner harbor. Lectures on the early history of the waterfront. Maybe the grain milling history. Great lakes shipping and the Erie canal.
There is no shortage of photographs of the working waterfront either, going all the way back to the 1850's.

good news citymouse, those lectures occur all the time. In fact during our gorgeous summers, you can board a tourboat and get a waterfront based guided tour of Buffalo's heritage, Buffalo river, harbor, canals and all. Its fabulous.

But a real museum is needed down there, with bricks, steel, mortar and all that, as part of the big waterfront revelopment picture.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by biker
Yeah, I don't see why there has to be a "museum" in the traditional sense downtown.

Why don't they recreate the terminus of the Erie Canal, complete with the businesses in period buildings that were on there (sans cathouses of course). But they would be real businesses, with a twist.

For instance, there'd be an actual funcitoning bank branch, but the people might dress like the 1830s. Have real shops there. OK, they might be selling T shirts and doo dads like Baltimore's harbour front shops, but it would be a self-sustaining recreation.

Restaurants and taverns with period dress would be a natural and the theme would serve to differentiate them from the hundreds of restaurants already here.

And there is a place for an actual Erie Canal/Great Lakes traditional museum---and the Erie Canal Museum in Syracuse (complete with a packet boat) is a good example.


no kidding? that seems awfully small time and honky-tonk.

That maybe will draw families from Tonawanda and Cheektowaga, once or twice. But it wont do a thing to bring world travelers into Buffalo or even draw a share of the ten-twelve+ million big cash tourists that already travel to Niagara Falls Ontario.

And who would pay to build those nickle and dime trinkit stores on that incredibly valuable land? There's no money in the rent-up of those little trinkit shops (for good reason) and the real estate would be de-valued tremendously. It would be an extremely tough sell to the taxpayer if thats what you're thinking.

No doubt whatever occurs, there will be trinkit shops, but that cant be the focal point.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
Without a total strip-to-the-steel redevelopment, Marine Drive will never be "high end." I don't know what the unit sizes are, but for a one bedroom, don't count on more than $75,000 if they were converted to condo. The one bedrooms in Admirals Walk resale for less than $100k and those are much newer, have better views, and have enclosed parking. And 600 units is almost double what exists in Waterfront Village today. It would really test the market, even if they combined units and put 400 up for sale.

WestCoast don't be a "naysayer"!!! Don't you know that Boost and moadib are the ones with ALL the ANSWERS -- at least the glib ones, not necessarily ones that will work?

The plain and simple fact is that NYS controls the fate of the Marine Drive Apartments through the agency known as the Division of Housing and Community Renewal. It had a hand in removing the previous management of the complex, and it will NOT allow the current tenants to be displaced so that the buildings can be turned into "high end luxury" condos. The issue is moot, so give it up!

[Deerhunter]

why do people like to tout their , pie in the sky, plans. Be realistic about things. Idealism isn't reality.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Originally posted by Deerhunter
why do people like to tout their , pie in the sky, plans. Be realistic about things. Idealism isn't reality.

But I like speculating and doing "ideallies". :)
I consider myself a realist for the most part ;)

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by biker
But I'll stand by my comments on the Theater District. There is something very very wrong in any thought-process that spends $50,000,000 on redeveloping a one block area and the only tenants they can find are below market not for profits.Not-for-profits pay the same rent as any other tenant would. I'd like an example of some of these mythical "parasite" groups of yours that pay reduced rent compared to a commercial tenant in the same building. If your point is that the demand for this space is low, the fact that building owners are forced to offer ultra-affordable rents to bring in tenants means it was a poor investment on the part of the landlord. That's not the fault of the not-for-profit world.


If you are fortunate enough to ever come in to $50,000,000 (look long and hard how big that number is and relate it to your own personal finances) is that the type of investment you would put it in? If I owned a building and it was rented out at the average occupancy/rental rate for the area (or above), and was turning a profit, I'd be pleased, regardless of whether the tenant was Fleet Bank or the Parkside Community Association (unless of course it was something illegal or unsavory). On the other hand, if this building was notturning a profit, then that means I made a bad investment, regardless of whether the tenant was Fleet Bank or the Parkside Community Association. Those "parasite" not-for-profits pay the same rent as anyone else and their money spends the same. They may not have the same budget as a private company, but they do notget below market rates simply because they're para oops I mean not-for-profits. Take the agency I work for as an example... you know, the "parasite" buying long-vacant property and renovating it into vital office space? Yeah, that one. Our central office is in a multi-use building downtown. We share the building with other not-for-profits, private offices, government offices, and retail. We don't get any sort of break simply because we're a not-for-profit. We pay the same rent scale as any other tenant in the building. How exactly are we "parasites?"


You'd be surprised at the characters who support the PCA.Ah, I get it now. Not-for-profits that help your neighborhood are ok. It's the ones that help other people that are "parasites." But if you're looking for a medal, big deal. I volunteer for PCA and I don't live anywhere near Parkside.

Once again... not-for-profits pay the same rent as anyone else would for a particular space. So why exactly are they "parasites?"

[biker]

Originally posted by WestSideJohn
If your point is that the demand for this space is low, the fact that building owners are forced to offer ultra-affordable rents to bring in tenants means it was a poor investment on the part of the landlord. That's not the fault of the not-for-profit world.

[/B]

That's my point. It was dumb, dumb dumb. The morons---I mean elected leadership---kept pouring money into these places for about fifteen years.

Without getting into the merits of their goals, the people who are nourished by these dumb dumb dumb expenditures are the not for profits that rent there. The image of "parasite"---meaning organisms that feed on a host---came to mind.

"parasite" as in an indication of a sick environment.

Perhaps I should have used "fungus."

[therising]

OFF-TOPIC POST, BUT SOMETHING BIKER POSTED REMINDED ME OF THIS, AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT WORTH OPENING A NEW THREAD:

Why does everyone at Delaware Park walk the loop in the same direction? (clock-wise).

I take my dog there on occasion, and I like to walk fast, so I go in the opposite direction. (This way I don't have to pass people).

I walk on the far left side, so I'm not bumping into anyone.

[WestCoastPerspective]

hahaha- good question- maybe because in Track they run counter-clockwise? Just my guess.

[moadib]

I think its a moot point really, ...

I know walkers joggers who run counter clockwise so they can say hello to people they pass or stop and meet people along the way versus going with the flow lets you focus on your activity without the face acknowledgement of those your passing.

I know roller bladers who chose a direction because of the grade. One direction as a steeper slope and lets good roller bladers go faster downhill while the other direction has that steeper slope slowing you down going uphill which is better for beginners.

AND THEN OF COURSE THERE ARE THOSE THAT GO BOTH WAYS WITHOUT ANY THOUGHT ABOUT IT AT ALL, AND THATS COOL TOO (LOL)! HAHAHA

ITS ALL MOOT REALLY, JUST ENJOY THE PARK. DELAWARE PARK IS ONE OF THE BEST PARKS IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY. DID ANYONE KNOW THAT DELAWARE PARK ACTUALLY WENT ALL THE WAY TO GRANT STREET. THE RICHARDSON AND BUFF STATE WERE ACTUALLY SET WITHIN THE PARK.

IT MAKES ME WISH THAT BUFF STATE WOULD EXPAND MORE ACROSS GRANT STREET TO NIAGARA STREET AND RETURN MORE OF THAT AREA BETWEEN FOREST & THE SQAJAQUADA BACK TO DELAWARE PARK! GOD KNOWS THAT THE AREA BETWEEN GRANT & NIAGARA STREET REALLY NEEDS BUFF STATE DEVELOPMENT, EVEN A BUFF STATE BUSINESS INCUBATOR LIKE UB WOULD BE GREAT FOR THE AREA.

[therising]

Actually, come to think of it, everyone else is going counter-clockwise.
I'm the one going clockwise.

[biker]

Originally posted by therising
OFF-TOPIC POST, BUT SOMETHING BIKER POSTED REMINDED ME OF THIS, AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT WORTH OPENING A NEW THREAD:

I walk on the far left side, so I'm not bumping into anyone.

It's because they're aspiring NHL players; that's the same way the skating rinks go.

But, as someone who speaks from the far left, I'm sure you just don't get it!

[speaker]

Originally posted by therising
OFF-TOPIC POST, BUT SOMETHING BIKER POSTED REMINDED ME OF THIS, AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT WORTH OPENING A NEW THREAD:

Why does everyone at Delaware Park walk the loop in the same direction? (clock-wise).

I take my dog there on occasion, and I like to walk fast, so I go in the opposite direction. (This way I don't have to pass people).

I walk on the far left side, so I'm not bumping into anyone.

rising--I also walk in the park and go with the flow most of the time--but to make it more interesting I sometimes go in the reverse direction and sometimes walk on the path or the grass cuz the pavement is soooo flat. Bet I've seen you. Do you see the man with the 3 dogs, 2 pit bulls and very nice ones and a dog named Carmen?

Anyway, another off thread--does anyone remember which thread it was and posted by ? and it discussed the old JN adam property and had pictures of it? linked to website I think? I can't find it.

[therising]

Originally posted by speaker
Bet I've seen you. Do you see the man with the 3 dogs, 2 pit bulls and very nice ones and a dog named Carmen?
.

Is Carmen your wife? :D :D

[WNYresident]

Originally posted by therising
Is Carmen your wife? :D :D

That is nasty rising...

[therising]

It was a joke....I should've put one of these: ;)

[bflonum1fan]

This thread has gone to the dogs ! I'm outta here !

[speaker]

from the wife of speaker to the rising------

WOOF WOOF:p

[citymouse]

My dog pays more attention to me then my wife ever did.
I like it that way.

[buffy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by therising: Is Carmen your wife? /QUOTE]

I thought that was a good one.

[WestSideJohn]

America's Dog Owners Demand Answers: Who's a Good Boy?

[therising]

Sorry to have killed this thread, but, I actually thought that dog post was one of my best ever!

[buffy]

http://www.platypusdreams.com/images/puppy_long_ears_grey.gif
Carmen

[therising]

Carmen looks kinda hot to me.

[citymouse]

You don't think she's a dog?

[leets]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Very good stuff! A manifesto for sure. All the suburbs ask is that you pay for your experience yourselves. It's seems a bit disengenuous that a city person like yourself scorns the private enterprise and sterile environment of the suburbs, yet many of your kind continually demand "aid" (cash) from those very same suburbs.


It's a lot like the doe-eyed bohemian liberal arts student rallying against the evil establishment, while secretly begging money from her father who's a wealthy attorney in Amherst...

This is the USA, and you can do whatever you like. Just pick up the check when the bill comes due.


Funny thing is it has been shown that the Burbs get far more of a free ride than the city and it seems I saw recently that either Hamburg or Orchard Park ( I forget which) Receives the highest amount of county services (and I am not even talking per capita) Things such as free roads, free parks, free plowing, free police services from the sherrif. This is not to mention all the free highways provided to suburbanites to travel the vast distances created by the sprawl. (it is interesting that the toll roads are in the city and the free roads are in tthe burbs. The people in the city who rarely use highways are subsidizing the freeloading burbs!

How about utility costs. City and Suburbs pay at the same rate for water, electric gas phone etc. but it take an average of 6 times as much infrastructure to deliver those utilities to low desnity suburbs. The result of this is that city residents are subsidizing suburban residents. Since you are against free loader and free handouts maybe as a suburban resident you would not mind paying your fair share

And sure the city requires a lot of aid. It is the city that is carries the burden of the poorest of the poor. Perhaps the city should just pay all the poor to move to Amherst. Or maybe just throw them in jail!! Sure perhaps it is their fault that they are poor but in this country we do not let people starve and their children are owed an eduaction. Where is Hamburg's public housing authority or Amherst or Tonawanda. It does not exist!!! It only exists in the city. So city neighborhoods and schools suffer because the suburbs carry NONE of the burden!!


Wake up and look at the truth before you toss around that no fee handout BS!!!

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by leets
Funny thing is it has been shown that the Burbs get far more of a free ride than the city and it seems I saw recently that either Hamburg or Orchard Park ( I forget which) Receives the highest amount of county services (and I am not even talking per capita) Things such as free roads, free parks, free plowing, free police services from the sherrif. This is not to mention all the free highways provided to suburbanites to travel the vast distances created by the sprawl. (it is interesting that the toll roads are in the city and the free roads are in tthe burbs. The people in the city who rarely use highways are subsidizing the freeloading burbs!

How about utility costs. City and Suburbs pay at the same rate for water, electric gas phone etc. but it take an average of 6 times as much infrastructure to deliver those utilities to low desnity suburbs. The result of this is that city residents are subsidizing suburban residents. Since you are against free loader and free handouts maybe as a suburban resident you would not mind paying your fair share

And sure the city requires a lot of aid. It is the city that is carries the burden of the poorest of the poor. Perhaps the city should just pay all the poor to move to Amherst. Or maybe just throw them in jail!! Sure perhaps it is their fault that they are poor but in this country we do not let people starve and their children are owed an eduaction. Where is Hamburg's public housing authority or Amherst or Tonawanda. It does not exist!!! It only exists in the city. So city neighborhoods and schools suffer because the suburbs carry NONE of the burden!!


Wake up and look at the truth before you toss around that no fee handout BS!!!

Leets, you said absolutley eveything that shoots down the whole shallow "why don't those city folk pay their own way" gripe that suburbanites often snivel.

One more thing I would mention is that the suburbs were first created be siphoning the middle class from the cities and offering them cheap, federally insured home mortgages, while denying loans to inner-citty homeowners to even fix up their homes.

The post-ww2 government and business climate was all about new low-density suburbia and cars cars cars. So many solidly-built older city neighborhoods could have been saved from the bulldozer if our government had the right priorities.

I like the idea of indexing utility costs to relative population density. People living on one-acre lots should pay what it really costs for extra sprawl infrastructure.

Also the costs of maintaing all those roads and highways that make suburbia possible in the first place should be shouldered by the "towns" that oh-so love their soverignty. Either that or the county should tax suburbaites for the excessive road usage and divert the funds into expanding metrorail and build atleast 3 new lines, so companies can move back into the city core and save money by not having to worry about providing parking for employees.

Of course no local politican would have the guts to do any of this. It will be business as usual until something catastrophic happens, like fuel prices going so out of control that suburban living becomes a luxury of the wealthy.

[Curmudgeon]

Also the costs of maintaing all those roads and highways that make suburbia possible in the first place should be shouldered by the "towns" that oh-so love their soverignty.

Absolutely! let each town pay for their own roads - and let them do it any way they like, including privatizing the maintainence. Tonawawanda should be able to join forces with Amherst and obtain a maintaience contract with the low bidder, and not get stuck with civil service costs.

[buffknut]

I don't see the value of pitting suburb vs city as we are all in the same boat together. Besides, since 3/4 of the county population lives in the suburbs, then the question could be turned around to ask why all the suburban taxpayers are subsidizing the city? Isn't it true that most of the city's revenues come from the state anyway?

But at any rate, I see no value in where you are going with your comments. Instead you should focus on forcing all the municipalities and school districts to dramatically cut spending together.

And if Tonawanda should join forces with Amherst, why not expand that concept and have all the towns join forces.....kinda like a county.....

Cut, Cut, and cut some more. But we in the burbs and you'se in the city should be on the same wavelength about it and not snipe at each other.

[leets]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Absolutely! let each town pay for their own roads - and let them do it any way they like, including privatizing the maintainence. Tonawawanda should be able to join forces with Amherst and obtain a maintaience contract with the low bidder, and not get stuck with civil service costs.

Except that they don't and won't do that. They are currently free loading off the city with no end in sight.

Here is a great way to eliminate the county budget problem. sell all the county roads to the towns. The county will no longer need to repair build or plow those roads. Eliminate the sheriff's department. The towns can provide their own police services. Increase water fees to outlying towns since they require so much extra infrastruture. Consolidate all county services and branch offices to the most densely populated and most central locations in the only.

It makes me sick to my stomach every time I hear suburbanites whine about the city getting a free ride. If the burbs paid the real cost of their right to live where and how they want you might find a lot more people wanting to live in the city.

[ERIEMAN]

what good would decentralization do? It creates overhead and a bigger, bloated government. You anti-sprawlers need to understand something. Us suburbanites decide not to live in the city because to us, living in the city SUCKS! Houses are 5 feet away from each other, crime is rampant, noise is incredible, humans outnumber trees, there are no parking spots, you have to PAY for parking, etc...i could go on if you really wanted me to...

Get rid of the sheriffs? great idea! Lets pay a chief of police and an administrative staff for each town instead of getting rid of town police and having a central county-wide police force. Lets make sure we duplicate services for each town. Same thing goes for the highway departments.

I'll never understand why some of you are so against a city/county merger. I wouldn't do it with the current set of leaders, but when the voters decide to smarten up and vote in some decent leaders, It is very feasible. It would be cheaper, leaner, smarter government. One less layer.

[leets]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
what good would decentralization do? It creates overhead and a bigger, bloated government. You anti-sprawlers need to understand something. Us suburbanites decide not to live in the city because to us, living in the city SUCKS! Houses are 5 feet away from each other, crime is rampant, noise is incredible, humans outnumber trees, there are no parking spots, you have to PAY for parking, etc...i could go on if you really wanted me to...

Get rid of the sheriffs? great idea! Lets pay a chief of police and an administrative staff for each town instead of getting rid of town police and having a central county-wide police force. Lets make sure we duplicate services for each town. Same thing goes for the highway departments.

I'll never understand why some of you are so against a city/county merger. I wouldn't do it with the current set of leaders, but when the voters decide to smarten up and vote in some decent leaders, It is very feasible. It would be cheaper, leaner, smarter government. One less layer.

Then start paying for your services. You live in the suburbs cheap because you freeload off the people who live in those more dense areas that you hate so much. It is not the city getting a hand out it is the city people funding all your big open spaces. Pay your fair share before you climb up on your high horse.


And as far as crime goes...the only reason crime is rampant in the city is because the suburban towns force the poorest people to live concentrated within the city. It is not the city's fault that poor people live within its borders it is the fault of the sububrs which refuse to belive that the probelm of the inner city is a problem which needs to be dealt with by our society as a whole not just one poor city government.

If you really believe in regional government then step up to the plate. Are you willing to merge all the wastefull duplication of the many school systems in WNY? Are you willing to have inner city kids in your schools. I very much doubt it!!.

[crlachepinochet]

What about property tax rates scaled according to density?

I find most everything the Sheriff's Dept. does to be unnecessary. Why is it that certain towns are allowed to go without police forces? It's a state mandate to patrol the roads for whoever doesn't feel like paying for their own protection? And state law forbids the county from owning roads in the city? That's certainly not collecting money from everyone to pay for everyone but the city.


And if Tonawanda should join forces with Amherst, why not expand that concept and have all the towns join forces.....kinda like a county.....
So the county is everyone grouping up to work together now? I was pretty sure it was another party in the everyone-for-themselves duel to the death of WNY.

[Curmudgeon]

Except that they don't and won't do that. They are currently free loading off the city with no end in sight.

You live in the suburbs cheap because you freeload off the people who live in those more dense areas that you hate so much.

??? Newsflash: The TAXPAYERS live in the burbs. That's where the wage-earners live - not in the city. That's why the city is broke - all the taxpayers have left.

You can't "freeload" off of an entity that has no money.

[WNYresident]

I gotta agree with Curmy here. I'm not saying there isn't tax money coming from the city but the majority has to be coming from the 3/4 of the people living outside of the city.

[WestCoastPerspective]

time to hit those mansions out in Clarence and Orchard Park with a hefty property tax increase....

bend over- its a comin!

[leets]

Originally posted by WNYresident
I gotta agree with Curmy here. I'm not saying there isn't tax money coming from the city but the majority has to be coming from the 3/4 of the people living outside of the city.

But on a per capita basis the suburbs use far more services and infrastructure.

A person in the burbs paying the same tax as me in the city is sucking up those dollars at a far higher rate. They need more roads more sewers more water pipes more plowing more duplication of sevices for every little crossroads town that needs its own police commissioner amd mayor etc.

At the same time my city tax dollars have to shoulder the major burden of the uban poor, a burden created by our society and a burden simply abandoned by the smug suburban residents who think that the problem does not concern them.

On top of that as those same sububran residents keep moving futher and futher out into places like Clarence. The ever shrinking population of WNY is forced to pay for more roads and more pipes and more school districts. And as we build more and more houses futher and further out with few and fewer people left to buy the older houses all of our property values suffer - suburban and city alike. Did you notice that WNY has some of the cheapest property in the US. That lack of growth in realestate value is money out of everyone's pocket not just the city resident.

It is just perfect - when the city tries to defend itself from baseless attacks from the freeloading suburbs it is accused of being anti regional and yet the only obstical to true regional thinking in WNY is the suburbs

[WestCoastPerspective]

if you're talking per-capita....
you need to include medicaid and other social services, the City likely harbors more on public assistance than the 'burbs

[leets]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
if you're talking per-capita....
you need to include medicaid and other social services, the City likely harbors more on public assistance than the 'burbs

I thought someone would bring up that phony argument.

Those costs are to individules not to the city. They are costs which have nothing to do with the town or city that the person lives in. They have nothing to do with city services, nothing to do with how a city government operates. It has nothing to do with the morality of the city's citizens. What does medicaid have to do with the city of Buffalo????

And as I was saying the burbs create a situation which virtually assures that poor people will not live within their borders. The fact that more people are on public aid in the city is due mostly because they could never afford to live in the burbs. Most of the burbs have public policy in place that prevents their towns from ever being accommodating to poor people.

Why do you think Metro Rail has never been expanded??

[ERIEMAN]

Then start paying for your services. You live in the suburbs cheap because you freeload off the people who live in those more dense areas that you hate so much. It is not the city getting a hand out it is the city people funding all your big open spaces. Pay your fair share before you climb up on your high horse.

In elma, there are NO services. I have no sewer, nor do we have garbagepeople. I pay $2500 per year in taxes for police protection. That's it. We have our own water department. Id say I'm paying my fair share.

In cheektowaga, I would be paying $4500 per year on this same house. In West Seneca, OP, Amherst, and Lancaster, I would be paying even more. Given that fact, how is it that you feel that suburbanites are not paying their "fair share". That is a really dumb and ignorant statement.


And as far as crime goes...the only reason crime is rampant in the city is because the suburban towns force the poorest people to live concentrated within the city. It is not the city's fault that poor people live within its borders it is the fault of the sububrs which refuse to belive that the probelm of the inner city is a problem which needs to be dealt with by our society as a whole not just one poor city government.

Another profoundly stupid statement. Nobody forces people to be poor. Nobody forces people to not have any intiative to do better for themselves. Nobody forces people into living where they do not want to live. You live in the city because you are poor? GO TO SCHOOL! GET A JOB! MAKE SOME MONEY! Man that is just insanely ignorant.


If you really believe in regional government then step up to the plate. Are you willing to merge all the wastefull duplication of the many school systems in WNY? Are you willing to have inner city kids in your schools. I very much doubt it!!.


Yes, school systems should most definitely be merged. Having poor inner-city schools is perpetuating illiteracy and a general lack of education within the city. Give the bright students a chance to shine. Also, give students vouchers to attend one of the many good private schools in the area.

Your insinuation that I would not be "willing to have inner city kids in [my] schools" is a very racist statement. I do not care if the kids came straight from Wende. they are not at fault for their parents' lack of support and guidance. Maybe a suburban education would do them some good. I have nothing against Inner city youth. It's the dumb adults that I have a problem with.

[ERIEMAN]

time to hit those mansions out in Clarence and Orchard Park with a hefty property tax increase....

You dont think that paying $12,000 per year on a $400,000 house is enough?

My cousin built a house in Altoona not too long ago. A little over 5000 square feet. He paid $5000 in property taxes last year.

[WestSideJohn]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
[B]Another profoundly stupid statement. Nobody forces people to be poor. Nobody forces people to not have any intiative to do better for themselves. Nobody forces people into living where they do not want to live. You live in the city because you are poor? GO TO SCHOOL! GET A JOB! MAKE SOME MONEY! Man that is just insanely ignorant.Not everyone who is poor is poor because they're lazy or unwilling to work or even uneducated. I'm sure it's easier to just dismiss the problems we face with poverty as "oh, they're just lazy" rather than examine the many sides of a complex situation. Talk about lazy.

[leets]

It is easy to dismiss the poor as lazy but the fact is they are there and they are not going away. They are a drain on society that was created by society over hundreds of years of slavery and biggotry.

The suburban people like to pretend that since the poor live in the city they are not a problem to the metro area as a whole. If they can just keep them contained in the city they can pretend the problem does not exist. Wel guess what? the city can not function as the sole support of people whoi can not carry their weight in society, and the poor are not going to go away just because you think they are lazy.

To the guy that thinks the residents of Amherst and Orchard Park are willing to open up their schools to inner city kids I as...What drugs are you on?.. Because they have transported you to another parrallel and opposite universe.

Also to the Elma guy...the example your rural house is a red herring. The real suburban problem is the new subdivisions which sprawl further and futher out. Wait until they reach Elma and start needing new schools and new sewers. Guess who pays? The residents of WNY and every year there are fewer residents who have to pay for exponentially more infrastructure. Is that so hard to understand??

[leets]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
You dont think that paying $12,000 per year on a $400,000 house is enough?

My cousin built a house in Altoona not too long ago. A little over 5000 square feet. He paid $5000 in property taxes last year.

That same $400,000 house in the Chicago area would cost over $1.5M and I can assure you that the owner of that $1.5M McMansion would jump at the chance to pay as little as $12,000 in tax per year.

Of course the Buffalo house will never reach that crazy cost becuase there are few and few people in the area to buy more and more houses. Supply and demand.

[Trolls_r_us]

I wish more suburbanties shared Erie's sentiments about a TRUE merger....

I would bet that MANY people wouldn't have issue with inner city kids coming INTO their suburban schools, but what about little Johnny who grew up in a totally white neighborhood, being sent to school in the heart of the East Side due to this "merger"

THEN I think you might have some issues....

Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just pointing out what we honestly all know

[Curmudgeon]

Supply and demand.

Eureka! That's the problem! the whole Supply and demand thing. we need to stop being victimized by Supply and demand. Let's make some new laws so we won't have to suffer from the effects of Supply and demand. We need to be PROTECTED. Let's stop all construction. Let's tax all the "rich" people and give it to the "poor" people. What a great idea....

[ERIEMAN]

Not everyone who is poor is poor because they're lazy or unwilling to work or even uneducated. I'm sure it's easier to just dismiss the problems we face with poverty as "oh, they're just lazy" rather than examine the many sides of a complex situation. Talk about lazy.

I'm not going to explore the "many sides of a complex situation". That would take a lot longer time than I would like to be sitting in front of my computer.

Sure, there are a lot of poor people that aren't necessarily "lazy", but they didn't get to where they are today by being go-getters!

[ERIEMAN]

Eureka! That's the problem! the whole Supply and demand thing. we need to stop being victimized by Supply and demand. Let's make some new laws so we won't have to suffer from the effects of Supply and demand. We need to be PROTECTED. Let's stop all construction. Let's tax all the "rich" people and give it to the "poor" people. What a great idea....

You said it, man. When was that meeting again where the rich secretly get together to find ways to screw the poor?

[ERIEMAN]

I would bet that MANY people wouldn't have issue with inner city kids coming INTO their suburban schools, but what about little Johnny who grew up in a totally white neighborhood, being sent to school in the heart of the East Side due to this "merger"


I'm not talking about bussing kids to different schools. It's all about funding. If there was a regional school system, all schools would get equal funding. That means books for everyone, computers, etc. I know a lot of people in suburban towns would scoff at that idea, asking "why should I have to pay for city schools". I wouldn't. Educating our youth benefits everyone.

[speaker]

Gotta take what Curm says with a pound of salt.

[ERIEMAN]

I just love his sarcasm.

[leets]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
I'm not talking about bussing kids to different schools. It's all about funding. If there was a regional school system, all schools would get equal funding. That means books for everyone, computers, etc. I know a lot of people in suburban towns would scoff at that idea, asking "why should I have to pay for city schools". I wouldn't. Educating our youth benefits everyone.

And what happens when the funding is equalized and city schools are still failing? And they will continue to fail because the problem with the city schools is much more complex than funding. City schools have the responsibility of educating a high concentration of children from extremely dysfunctional families. These children have not been taught by their parents how to function in society. This is a burden that the suburbs refuse to take on. That is why poverty is concentrated inside the city.

There is nothing inherent about being inside that city that creates poverty and crime. The reason it exists in the city is because that is where it has been left after disinvestment in the city.

Merging school systems and retaining the same kids in the same schools will not work and no Amherst politician will ever ever promote anything of its kind ever

I have asked this many times over and over with no response. Why is the poverty concentrated in the city? Why is Buffalo the only place that public housing is constructed? Why has no public housing been constructed in Amherst and Orchard Park???.

I think the answer is out of sight out of mind. Guess what folks? As Grandpa bob likes to say Buffalo is not in another country. The problems inside Buffalo affect all of WNY. Wake up and start taking responsibility.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
I'm not talking about bussing kids to different schools. It's all about funding. If there was a regional school system, all schools would get equal funding. That means books for everyone, computers, etc. I know a lot of people in suburban towns would scoff at that idea, asking "why should I have to pay for city schools". I wouldn't. Educating our youth benefits everyone.

One big problem with your idea of one school district is state aid. Buffalo schools currently receive around 80% of their funding from NYS while the suburban and rural districts get between 20 and 50%, depending on the district. I think that a merger would result in significant loss of state aid for the Buffalo schools that would have to be made up locally, ie, via significantly increased school taxes for everyone, particularly in Buffalo.

[ERIEMAN]

I don't even know where to begin refuting your skewed thought process. I do not understand why people living in suburbs are to blame for inner-city families' dysfunction. It doesn't make sense.

Why is poverty concentrated in the city? Because people in suburbs TAKE CARE OF THEIR PROPERTIES, thereby increasing the value of their homes and the homes around it, thereby making it unaffordable for the poor. Houses in the city USED to be nice, but after years and years of neglect, they are no longer worth anything.

It's not a disease, its a mindset. Many (not all) people are poor because they didnt aspire to be anything great. Many dropped out of school, accepted a job at 7-Eleven, lived off of welfare, and are happy with the way they are living their lives because they dont have to do much else.

Me, I went to school. I worked to get to where I am, as did my wife. I work every day to improve my house or my property. I cut my grass, weed the landscaping. Do you really think I want one of those lazy turds lowering my property values?

"Wake up and start taking responsibility." you say? Why would I want to take responsibility for someone else's laziness?

And for the record, there is public housing in Amherst. All along French Road.


And what happens when the funding is equalized and city schools are still failing? And they will continue to fail because the problem with the city schools is much more complex than funding. City schools have the responsibility of educating a high concentration of children from extremely dysfunctional families. These children have not been taught by their parents how to function in society. This is a burden that the suburbs refuse to take on. That is why poverty is concentrated inside the city.


I take it you have experience in merging school systems? I see you've already failed at merging your own, right? The idea to merge schools is just that - an idea. The status quo is not working. We need to try something different. If everyone in this city is as dismissive and thoughtless as you, we would get nowhere. Everything would be a friggin' charity. Damn liberals.

[leets]

You are so naive I can't even start to respond to this!



[i]Originally posted by ERIEMAN I don't even know where to begin refuting your skewed thought process. I do not understand why people living in suburbs are to blame for inner-city families' dysfunction. It doesn't make sense.

People in the burbs are no more or less to blame for inner city poverty that people living in the city. Not all people in the city are lazy wealfare cheats. The poverty in the city exists weather you like it or not. It is a drain on society and to pretend it is not a probelem that all people have to deal with is just plain ignorant


Why is poverty concentrated in the city? Because people in suburbs TAKE CARE OF THEIR PROPERTIES, thereby increasing the value of their homes and the homes around it, thereby making it unaffordable for the poor. Houses in the city USED to be nice, but after years and years of neglect, they are no longer worth anything.

Do you realize that large percentage of those neglected properties are owned by absentee landlords who live in the Burbs. Do you realize that most of the people who stop paying tax on those properties are form the burbs. Do you realize that during the 50's 60's and 70's banks would not loan any money for improvements on houses in certain city neighborhoods. Do you realize that without investment by people with mean the only thing that can happen is that properties will decline. You should not be so smug with your over simplifications.



It's not a disease, its a mindset. Many (not all) people are poor because they didnt aspire to be anything great. Many dropped out of school, accepted a job at 7-Eleven, lived off of welfare, and are happy with the way they are living their lives because they dont have to do much else.

You are correct it is a mind set. It was engrained over many years and many generations. Children from good families are cared for and taught from birth how to achieve and to add to society. Children in the inner city do not get that benefit. The inner city poverty is a plague on our society. Blaming it on laziness will not make it go away.


Me, I went to school. I worked to get to where I am, as did my wife. I work every day to improve my house or my property. I cut my grass, weed the landscaping. Do you really think I want one of those lazy turds lowering my property values?


"Wake up and start taking responsibility." you say? Why would I want to take responsibility for someone else's laziness?

And for the record, there is public housing in Amherst. All along French Road.


Nor does anyone in the city want that. So why should a hard working person in the city making a good living with a good education cutting his grass have to shoulder the burden of thoes "Lazy Turds" The lazy turds were created by society in general not by the city!


I take it you have experience in merging school systems? I see you've already failed at merging your own, right? The idea to merge schools is just that - an idea. The status quo is not working. We need to try something different. If everyone in this city is as dismissive and thoughtless as you, we would get nowhere. Everything would be a friggin' charity. Damn liberals.

I am all for merging the schools but if you believe that will ever be allowed by the suburbs I have a bridge to sell you in NY

[ERIEMAN]

So, if you agree with me that schools should be merged for the benefit of the kids, then why are we arguing?

[Boost Buffalo]

The root of the problem regarding the Buffalo Public School system is their PUBLIC LABOR UNION AND THEIR POLITICIAN COUNTERPARTS.

No need to look further. And we know who owns Byron Brown. Same guys who own the current mayor.

Be careful who gets your next vote, city folk.

[ERIEMAN]

The current mayor is too stupid to be owned. I feel like Howdy Doody is running the city. I keep picturing him on the news peddling his dumb Buffalo Water idea. Who the hell wants water from a bottle with a Buffalo on it? Do you know what Buffaloes do in water? Same thing 2nd graders do in public pools.

I have very little confidence in the city voters. Im' not saying the Helfer is the answer, but nobody wants to give a Republican a chance. I've been a registered Democrat all my life, but even I can see that maybe we should give the Republicans a shot.

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
I don't even know where to begin refuting your skewed thought process. I do not understand why people living in suburbs are to blame for inner-city families' dysfunction. It doesn't make sense.

Why is poverty concentrated in the city? Because people in suburbs TAKE CARE OF THEIR PROPERTIES, thereby increasing the value of their homes and the homes around it, thereby making it unaffordable for the poor. Houses in the city USED to be nice, but after years and years of neglect, they are no longer worth anything.

It's not a disease, its a mindset. Many (not all) people are poor because they didnt aspire to be anything great. Many dropped out of school, accepted a job at 7-Eleven, lived off of welfare, and are happy with the way they are living their lives because they dont have to do much else.

Me, I went to school. I worked to get to where I am, as did my wife. I work every day to improve my house or my property. I cut my grass, weed the landscaping. Do you really think I want one of those lazy turds lowering my property values?

"Wake up and start taking responsibility." you say? Why would I want to take responsibility for someone else's laziness?

And for the record, there is public housing in Amherst. All along French Road.



I take it you have experience in merging school systems? I see you've already failed at merging your own, right? The idea to merge schools is just that - an idea. The status quo is not working. We need to try something different. If everyone in this city is as dismissive and thoughtless as you, we would get nowhere. Everything would be a friggin' charity. Damn liberals.

Erieman, have you ever had any real contact with poor people or have you just observed them from a safe distance? I find your attitude to be that of the "born lucky and too stupid to realize it" folks who look down on those who are less fortunate. You demonstated this attitude over and over again on the thread on Cedargrove Heights, and you're showing your broadmindedness once again here.

I bet you're the guy who makes fun of a mentally ill street person on his way from church rather than remembering that "there but for the grace of God go I".

[ERIEMAN]

I've been mugged in the city more times than I care to even talk about. Without getting into details, I used to have a job in which I would assist people that were unable to leave their houses with a necessary medical service.

As part of this job, I was in contact with a great number of people in the city. Poor, middle class, rich, etc. Quite often, I would go into these houses and 10 kids would be sleeping on the living room floor during a school day. Dishes were piled up in the sink while able bodies sat at the kitchen table smoking a cigarette or reading the paper. The smell of urine and feces often permeated the air. Crap was strewn all over the yard.

Mind you, these were NOT renters. They owned their houses.

Why don't we have a public session where we invite the poor, and we cuddle with them, stroking their hair, saying "oh, its okay that you live off of our taxes" and "you don't have to go find a better job", or better yet "yeah, there is financial assistance available so you can go to school, but you dont need to do that - we'll take care of you"...

I'd sooner make fun of someone wasting their time in church than a mentally ill street person. At least they have an excuse for spouting off scripture like they know something.

[leets]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
I've been mugged in the city more times than I care to even talk about. Without getting into details, I used to have a job in which I would assist people that were unable to leave their houses with a necessary medical service.

As part of this job, I was in contact with a great number of people in the city. Poor, middle class, rich, etc. Quite often, I would go into these houses and 10 kids would be sleeping on the living room floor during a school day. Dishes were piled up in the sink while able bodies sat at the kitchen table smoking a cigarette or reading the paper. The smell of urine and feces often permeated the air. Crap was strewn all over the yard.

Mind you, these were NOT renters. They owned their houses.

Why don't we have a public session where we invite the poor, and we cuddle with them, stroking their hair, saying "oh, its okay that you live off of our taxes" and "you don't have to go find a better job", or better yet "yeah, there is financial assistance available so you can go to school, but you dont need to do that - we'll take care of you"...

I'd sooner make fun of someone wasting their time in church than a mentally ill street person. At least they have an excuse for spouting off scripture like they know something.

I am not exactly sure what the point of your comment is.

I have lived in the city my entire life and I have never been mugged. I have had my car broken into at the mall in the burbs twice though. Also my car was smashed into in the mall by someone who just left the scene.

As I noted and you conveniently neglected to notice. Much of the neglected property in the city is owned by absentee suburban landlords. So please get off the holier than thou "we suburbanites take care of our property" act. Perhaps they should start taking care of all their property. I think you will find that the vast majority of the owner occupied housing in Buffalo is in very good condition and well cared for.

As to the poor people you describe... again I ask why are they the responsibility of city residents and not society as a whole. Why should city residents suffer property value degradation and not Hamburg residents?

[ERIEMAN]

You don't need to understand the point of my comment. I was responding to Linda, who assumes that I have never been in contact with poor people.

I think it's great that you've lived in the city. That's your thing. You've never been mugged. That's probably because you aren't a medical professional carrying syringes on B Street.

The vast majority of city properties are certainly NOT well cared for. When was the last time you drove down Fillmore or Walden and said "Oh! That looks like a cute house!".

You see, you say that the poor are someone's responsibility. I never said that they were the city's responsibility. The only persons responsible for the poor are the poor.

[buffknut]

Here we go, still at it. Pitting suburb vs City. What a waste of effort.

Isn't a good chunk of City property Tax-exempt due to gov't or Church or non-profit owned? Isn't the Buffalo Municipal Housing Authority the biggest slum-lord in the City? Can you show the numbers that identify exactly how much of the housing property is landlord vs owner occupied? Is it really true that "much of the neglected property is owned by absentee suburban owners"? I'm asking because I really don't know but you are claiming it as fact.

I grew up in the City. We were very far from rich. I live in the burbs like 3/4 of the County population. I pay my taxes, plus separate garbage, and no sewers (septic where I am even though it is definitely not rural).

I'm all for City-County merger and support merging all school districts. First cut ALL the fat, then merge.

Instead of the sniping, how about reaching common ground. You piss and moan about the politicians but they are doing the same type of stuff being done on the threads so how do any of you expect a different set of hacks to behave any different than the current bunch?

[ERIEMAN]

agreed. 100% It is a waste of effort arguing city v suburb. I jsut wish people would realize that not everyone wants to live in the city, and that we aren't in some pact to screw the city residents.

You from Elma too? Lancaster?

[leets]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
You don't need to understand the point of my comment. I was responding to Linda, who assumes that I have never been in contact with poor people.

I think it's great that you've lived in the city. That's your thing. You've never been mugged. That's probably because you aren't a medical professional carrying syringes on B Street.

The vast majority of city properties are certainly NOT well cared for. When was the last time you drove down Fillmore or Walden and said "Oh! That looks like a cute house!".

You see, you say that the poor are someone's responsibility. I never said that they were the city's responsibility. The only persons responsible for the poor are the poor.


You must not believe your own arguments if you have to twist my comments to make your point.

I said that the vast majority of OWNER OCCUPIED houses in Buffalo are in very good condition! It is the absentee suburban landlords who are destroying the city by sucking out the profits with no reinvestment!

And yes you have said that the poor are the responsibility of the city by your words and actions. You balme the city for all its ills when many of the problems of the city are created by the "Lazy Turds" as you put it and their co-conspiritors the absantee landlords. Why should the hard working city residents have to shoulder the entire burden of educating the children of these "Lazy Turds" Why should the city residents alone shoulder the burden of lower property values just because some fat cat absentee suburban landlord does not take care of his property. The rich suburbs have to start taking responsibility for the social propblems that are holding back the entire community!

Amherst gets a University, Buffalo gets public housing projects. Sound fair to me!!

[Linda_D]

Originally posted by leets
Amherst gets a University, Buffalo gets public housing projects. Sound fair to me!!

Amherst got a university because the city "leaders" insisted on putting the university near downtown which would have wrecked neighborhoods, displaced thousands of residents, and cost piles of money more than putting the university out in the farm fields of Amherst. The "Everything Must Go Downtown" crowd has been doing its share to contribute to the decline of Buffalo for a long time.

I also have to take issue with claiming absentee landlords are mostly "suburbanites". Numerous Buffalo residents have contributed their share to blighted neighborhoods.

You can't absolve city residents from the blame for the conditions in their own city, leets, since they have consistently elected mayors and Common Council members who have accepted lax housing code enforcement as the norm.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by leets
You must not believe your own arguments if you have to twist my comments to make your point.

I said that the vast majority of OWNER OCCUPIED houses in Buffalo are in very good condition! It is the absentee suburban landlords who are destroying the city by sucking out the profits with no reinvestment!

And yes you have said that the poor are the responsibility of the city by your words and actions. You balme the city for all its ills when many of the problems of the city are created by the "Lazy Turds" as you put it and their co-conspiritors the absantee landlords. Why should the hard working city residents have to shoulder the entire burden of educating the children of these "Lazy Turds" Why should the city residents alone shoulder the burden of lower property values just because some fat cat absentee suburban landlord does not take care of his property. The rich suburbs have to start taking responsibility for the social propblems that are holding back the entire community!

Amherst gets a University, Buffalo gets public housing projects. Sound fair to me!!

How do you distinguish between rentals and owner occupied dwellings? It's not like they are marked accordingly with pig's blood or anything.

I didn't blame anyone but the lazy parents of the uneducated children. I believe that it is society's responsibility to ensure a proper education for ALL people. (I do not share the same view on health care). I believe this because education is a much better investment than free healthcare. If people had an education so they could get a good job, there would be less dependency on things like Medicaid.

Cheektowaga has Cedargrove and Idlewoods. Depew has main street and the apartments off of George Urban. Amherst has the subsidized apartments on French Road, as well as develoments closer to NFB. Lackawanna has....well, all of Lackawanna.

There is no shortage of subsidized and poverty-stricken projects all over the county.

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by Linda_D
Amherst got a university because the city "leaders" insisted on putting the university near downtown which would have wrecked neighborhoods, displaced thousands of residents, and cost piles of money more than putting the university out in the farm fields of Amherst. The "Everything Must Go Downtown" crowd has been doing its share to contribute to the decline of Buffalo for a long time.

I also have to take issue with claiming absentee landlords are mostly "suburbanites". Numerous Buffalo residents have contributed their share to blighted neighborhoods.

You can't absolve city residents from the blame for the conditions in their own city, leets, since they have consistently elected mayors and Common Council members who have accepted lax housing code enforcement as the norm.

Linda. Keep record of this post. For it is the first time I've fully agreed with your post and not had a single argument against it.

I say we all agree to disagree on this issue. I see all of your points, but I just cannot get myself to make a charity case of the city whatsoever. Everybody has to be responsible for themselves and not rely on luck or "a blessing" to make their way. You make your own way in life and take great pride in doing so. I started off at McDonalds, and slowly made my way up, changing fields several times.

[Shovel ready]

Originally posted by Linda_D
Amherst got a university because the city "leaders" insisted on putting the university near downtown which would have wrecked neighborhoods, displaced thousands of residents, and cost piles of money more than putting the university out in the farm fields of Amherst. The "Everything Must Go Downtown" crowd has been doing its share to contribute to the decline of Buffalo for a long time.



No, actually Amherst got the university because one of Nelson Rockefeller's (governer of NYS at the time) relatives owned a large plot of swampland out there that they were eager to sell for a windfall.

Besdies, Buffalo was completely built-out at the time, so expanding the university there would have involved some sort of demoltion, unless one of 3 smart alternatives were carried out. None of these would have displaced any residents (or a very minimal amount)

1. Downtown Urban Campus-
If you have even seen NYU in lower manhattan, it's an example of an urban campus. It's not a typical insular college campus cut of from the outside world, but a patchwork of buildings that blend into the urban fabric and share public streets with office buildings and stores. At this time Buffalo was in the process of tearing down much of it's old downtown fabirc. A university could have easily been integrated into the downtown street grid.

2. Waterfront campus
Even back then these was plenty of underutilized land on the waterfront. Much of this could have been cleaned up and fitted into a traditional campus-like setting.

3. In the late 50s AN ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD of a bout 30 some blocks was razed for "urban renewal". Much of the land sat vacant until the early 90s.
This huge empty field of land sitting directly east of downtown could have easily been filled in with an expanded university.

None of the plans happend because of the obvious special interests involved with the land out in the swamps. Good planning and long-term thinking would have resulted in one of the three scenarios outlined above. The 60s/early 70s was a perioid obsessed with hyper suburban growth and abandonment of older urban area so providing studnets with a lively pedestrian-friendly campus smack dab in the middle of the city, seemed to not be top priority. Instead we got a windswept asphalt wasteland out in the middle of nowhere that only further contributed to the downfall of the city.


Originally posted by Linda_D

I also have to take issue with claiming absentee landlords are mostly "suburbanites". Numerous Buffalo residents have contributed their share to blighted neighborhoods.



Actually, many of these slumlords don't even reside in WNY, or in NYS to be more exact.

[buffknut]

I know several suburbanites who are "absentee landlords" of City properties and I guarantee you that they take care of their properties. I have also heard many stories of bad tenants.

Their have always been poor people in the City. The difference now is that the politicians need poor people to stay in office so have made policy to encourage poverty. And guess which party has been primarily in power all those years doing that?

The Democratic party.

So if you want a core cause to the problem, it's the continual re-election of Democrats, thereby institutionalizing the poverty in the City. It's not the sole cause but it is a big huge one.

Again;

Step 1: Define the problem - Excessive Govt spending at all levels but specifically in this case, Erie County, all the Towns & City, School Districts, Fire Districts.

Step: Define the Solution (here's mine, you may differ) -
Cut 20% immediately across the Board
Competitive bid all services based on LOWEST COST for best value. NO FAVORITISM TOWARD LOCAL INTERESTS (i.e., outsource if it makes sense)
Eliminate and merge all municipalities in EC to one entity
Eliminate and merge all school districts in EC to one District

We should be adament about what we want and stop sending mixed messages. The politicians cannot decipher mixed messages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ERIEMAN]

I'd even take that a step further by:

1) eliminating pension plans as a perk to NEW municipal employees. Let them buy into 401k's. Of course, let existing employees keep what they've already invested, and help them transition to alternative retirement plans such as 401k and IRAs
2) Get rid of all town and city-appointed assessors. Outsource property assessments to a local company.
3) form a "Business Control Board" - a voluntary board of local successful business leaders that could evaluate the municipal hiring process, staff levels, etc, and give feasible solutions to the problems at hand
4) Initiate 6-sigma

[leets]

Originally posted by Linda_D
Amherst got a university because the city "leaders" insisted on putting the university near downtown which would have wrecked neighborhoods, displaced thousands of residents, and cost piles of money more than putting the university out in the farm fields of Amherst. The "Everything Must Go Downtown" crowd has been doing its share to contribute to the decline of Buffalo for a long time.

I also have to take issue with claiming absentee landlords are mostly "suburbanites". Numerous Buffalo residents have contributed their share to blighted neighborhoods.

You can't absolve city residents from the blame for the conditions in their own city, leets, since they have consistently elected mayors and Common Council members who have accepted lax housing code enforcement as the norm.

Actually the Buffalo News has done numerous stories which show that the worst city landlords live in the suburbs, often the richest part of Amherst. If I can dig them up I will list how to find them.

[leets]

Originally posted by ERIEMAN
How do you distinguish between rentals and owner occupied dwellings? It's not like they are marked accordingly with pig's blood or anything.

I didn't blame anyone but the lazy parents of the uneducated children. I believe that it is society's responsibility to ensure a proper education for ALL people. (I do not share the same view on health care). I believe this because education is a much better investment than free healthcare. If people had an education so they could get a good job, there would be less dependency on things like Medicaid.

Cheektowaga has Cedargrove and Idlewoods. Depew has main street and the apartments off of George Urban. Amherst has the subsidized apartments on French Road, as well as develoments closer to NFB. Lackawanna has....well, all of Lackawanna.

There is no shortage of subsidized and poverty-stricken projects all over the county.


Lackawanna is a different story from Amherst. Buff Lack and Niagara Falls are all in the same boat in that they have been left to deal with society's problems while the rich pretend that the problems do not exist

[ERIEMAN]

Originally posted by leets
Lackawanna is a different story from Amherst. Buff Lack and Niagara Falls are all in the same boat in that they have been left to deal with society's problems while the rich pretend that the problems do not exist

I'm not rich, and I honestly don't care about other people's problems. Life is what you make of it, and if your choice is to make nothing out of it, then deal with the cards that you've dealt yourself. Don't be asking the "rich" to give you handouts and charity. That's not the way life works.

And let's say I was "rich". If I put in the effort to make myself rich, why on earth would I want to just hand out my hard earned money to people that do not want to work to become better?

Let's use an an example. Say you are an MD. You go to college for 8 years, do a 3 year residency, do a 3 year fellowship, and then make $160,000 three years later. How much of that money are you willing to give to the poor?

Lets say you're a small business "president and CEO". You've worked 100+ hours a week for the past twelve years to keep 60 people employed with health benefits. You make $200,000 per year. How much of that money are you willing to give to the poor?

Lackawanna isn't a different story from amherst. Lackawanna is a suburb that is one BIG project.

[Boost Buffalo]

Originally posted by Linda_D
Amherst got a university because the city "leaders" insisted

my recollection is that the editor of the Buffalo Evening News, Mrs. Butler, insisted that the university with all their damn hippies/protests/riots were not welcome in her backyard. there was a campaign with ultimatums that she orchestrated...and with her influence it was no contest.

[crlachepinochet]

Here's another example: let's say you work for minimum wage so the doctor and CEO can buy paper towels for 79¢. If you work 40 hours a week every single week, you'll take home about $10,500 in a year. Let's face it, there's not much you can do with $10,500 per year. Work harder to improve yourself? Should everyone be required to work 80 or 100 hour weeks now? Get an education, you say? Who'll stock your shelves and ring you up at the register? There aren't enough high schoolers and college students to do everything (and they might have trouble working in the middle of the day). Cashiers are necessary like garbagemen are necessary like police officers are necessary just like doctors and CEOs are necessary.