Do You Support School Vouchers?

[moadib]

I just read an interesting statistic about our schools
-We are spending more money on non-teaching resources like teachers aids, substitute teachers, principles, guidance counselors, counselors, nurses, janitors, school board administration........than we are on teaching

-We are spending more money on paperwork and beaurocratic administration that we are on teaching

-We cant keep schools open for sports or after school activities because of janitorial union contracts

-We are spending more time teaching sex education, race relations, tolerance, environment, etc....than we are teaching all the sciences, mathmatics, literature, art, music, athletics, trades, etc.

-We arent disciplining kids in school or teaching them respect for authority.

There are some liberal viewpoints that I support and respect but lets face facts, liberals dominate the educational profession and our schools are miserable failures compared to private schools that dont buy into any of this liberal crap or teachers union crap.

Schools are there for Kids not to employ beaurocrats

[therising]

My parents worked hard to send me and my brother to private schools. Why should they have bothered doing so if they could've just used vouchers? Doesn't really seem fair.

[Night Owl]

It all depends on where the voucher/scholarship (aka) comes from. The largest program in the City of Buffalo to issue scholarships does so via private funding.

There are a lot of misconceptions about vouchers/scholarships, not everyone can apply (or get approval), and it goes according to tax records to verify lower income families. The BISON fund is not a government hand out, and it definatley is not welfare for education.

The BISON Scholarship Fund

Thanks to the generosity of the Buffalo community and matching grants from the Children’s Scholarship Fund (CSF), the BISON Scholarship Fund has grown from helping 200 children in its first year to nearly 1,500 children in its eighth year. These BISON scholars attend over 73 different private or parochial schools in the Buffalo area.

The Children’s Scholarship Fund Program

Founded in 1998, the Children's Scholarship Fund provides partial tuition assistance for low-income families to send their children to private schools. More than 67,000 children have benefited from scholarships across the United States as part of our mission to open the doors of educational opportunity to families. Currently, more than 23,000 children are using CSF scholarships. These children are attending private school due to the generosity of our donors, the efforts of 38 scholarship programs, and the sacrifices made by the families themselves, who pay—on average—50% of their children's tuition.

[therising]

A scholarship is one thing, a free ride voucher is another.

Can someone give me one good reason for vouchers??

[Irate taxpayer]

Originally posted by therising
A scholarship is one thing, a free ride voucher is another.

Can someone give me one good reason for vouchers??

Ditto for me. My parents sacrificed to send 5 of us to private school 1-8. And 3 went on to private HS.

Sorry I don't have a good reason vouchers.
Those who elect to send their kids to private schools, still have to pay school taxes. Why not give them some type of a tax school reduction .

When my son was in private school, we had numerous volunteer projects to work on to reduce tuition and we took advantage of the opportunity.

[Night Owl]

A scholarship is one thing, a free ride voucher is another.

It isn't like a "free ride" on the taxpayers dime. most, if not all the vouchers/scholarships are not full funding, but a portion of tuition costs.

Those who elect to send their kids to private schools, still have to pay school taxes. Why not give them some type of a tax school reduction .

City schools do not have a seperate 'school tax' as the suburbs, but pay for schools through state and federal taxes.

I also know that vouchers/scholarships are not something that is being questioned in the County Budget, they are awarded through private organizations.

There are NO government vouchers in New York State.

This poll question has nothing at all to do with


I just read an interesting statistic about our schools
-We are spending more money on non-teaching resources like teachers aids, substitute teachers, principles, guidance counselors, counselors, nurses, janitors, school board administration........than we are on teaching

"supporting" school voucher programs has nothing to do with the question of: spending more money on non-teaching resources like teachers aids, substitute teachers, principles, guidance counselors, counselors, nurses, janitors, school board administration.

[therising]

Put it this way.

We all pay for the Parks System. Some never use the parks.

Some people prefer (and can afford) to play golf at a privately funded country club, as opposed to a publicly funded golf course.

Would you support vouchers for country clubs? If so, I'd be willing to sign an affidavit that I will never use the public courses (similar to not using public schools), and, instead, I will use my public voucher to help offset my dues at the country club.

[therising]

I love these threads where everyone votes, but virtually no one can support their reasoning.

[Night Owl]

HUH?

There are no government voucher/scholarship programs, so I am confunsed how you can ask a question about paying for publically funded golf courses. The scholarships are awarded to families that qualify for them based on the program's specifics.

Besides, golf courses don't teach the basic reading, writing and arithmetic.

[Night Owl]

oh, and BTW, I didn't vote in this poll.

[therising]

Regardless of whether or not there are government voucher/scholarship programs, the title of this poll is "Do you support school vouchers?". and 2/3 of the respondents have answered Yes.

Yet, no one provided a reason as to Why they support them.

You don't need to go to a private school to learn the reading, writing, basics. Just like you don't need to go to a County Club to learn to play golf.

Theoretically, to me, it's the same thing. Why should I spend my own money to spend my kids to private school if the kid at the next desk is getting a subsidy??

Public school is not the end of the world.

[WNYresident]

Yet, no one provided a reason as to Why they support them

Theres no reason to not support them.. WHy should you be forced to pay for a public school versus any school?

Why have one group of teachers subsidized while not subsidizing private schools? They all do the same thing.

[therising]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Theres no reason to not support them.. WHy should you be forced to pay for a public school versus any school?

Why have one group of teachers subsidized while not subsidizing private schools? They all do the same thing.

So...what you're saying is that Since we subsidize public schools, we may as well subsidize private schools as well? So, eventually what will happen is that there will be no difference between public schools and private schools.....and you're happy with that??
Congratulations, you've just wiped out an entire industry.
Send the nuns from the catholic schools to the unemployment line. then, we can subsidize them as well.

[moonshine]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thumbs Up to therising.

[Night Owl]

So...what you're saying is that Since we subsidize public schools, we may as well subsidize private schools as well?

Did you make a contribution to a private funding of the scholarship program?

You didn't subsidize anything unless you gave money to a private organization that gives money to funding voucher/scholarships.

hear me for like the 4 th time in this thread... there are are NO government scholarship/voucher funds. Your tax dollars are not going into school vouchers.

Thumbs up only to being mis-in-formed!

[moonshine]

Night Owl, I understand what you are saying, but I have to offer another perspective to this question:


Did you make a contribution to a private funding of the scholarship program?

YES, I DID. It was a tax that I paid to the city of tonawanda schools. In fact, I paid more in taxes for someone elses kid to goto "school" than I spent on my own son's private education.

The private funding was ME! The "scholarship" program was the welfare I paid for some kid to get a substandard education at an inflated cost.

[therising]

The question, once again is Do You SUPPPORT.......

The question can looked at 2 ways, and. of course, you're assuming that you're looking at it the "right" way.

1 - Do you "support"..meaning idealogically, philosophically, etc.......
or..
2 - Do you "Support" financially (ie do you contribute)

No reason to get bent out of shape, Owl.

[Night Owl]

YES, I DID. It was a tax that I paid to the city of tonawanda schools.

You pay your school taxes to a private organization? The city of Tonawanda is a private organization that you made a contribution to?

I didn't know that.

No reason to get bent out of shape, Owl.

I know there is a difference between support and support. But the question being asked is associated with "financial" support and I am just saying the taxpayers are not paying for scholarships/vouchers.


-We are spending more money on non-teaching resources like teachers aids, substitute teachers, principles, guidance counselors, counselors, nurses, janitors, school board administration........than we are on teaching

-We are spending more money on paperwork and beaurocratic administration that we are on teaching

-We cant keep schools open for sports or after school activities because of janitorial union contracts

-We are spending more time teaching sex education, race relations, tolerance, environment, etc....than we are teaching all the sciences, mathmatics, literature, art, music, athletics, trades, etc.

-We arent disciplining kids in school or teaching them respect for authority.


Private schools pay for themselves via tuition and these schools don't have to accept the scholarships/vouchers, but can if they want to.

[yokes]

Personally I think this way, vouchers should be expanded to total choice for all taxpyers, choose which school, (public or private) your tax contribution and children go to. creates competition among schools crappy schools inevidibly get less funding and students. I see it as a way to improve education overall.

[moadib]

I AGREE WITH YOKES & MANY OTHERS

PUT TOGETHER THE AVERAGE DOLLAR SPENT PER PUPIL AND CONVERT IT TO A VOUCHER, THEN LET THOSE PARENTS AND CHILDREN CHOOSE WHICH

-PUBLIC SCHOOL
-CHARTER SCHOOL
-PRIVATE SCHOOL
-PAROCHIAL SCHOOL

NOW EXPENSIVE SCHOOLS WOULD REQUIRE PARENTS TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE BUT LETS STOP WAREHOUSING KIDS TO FEED A BURACRACY THAT DOESNT WORK
-PUBLIC SCHOOLS DONT DISCIPLINE
-PUBLIC SCHOOLS SPEND MORE MONEY ON NON-TEACHING EXPENSES THAN TEACHING EXPENSES
-PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND UNIONS TREAT TAX-PAYERS AS A LIMITLESS WELL TO GUARANTY THEIR RAISES...THATS WHY THEY ARE EARNING OVER $100,000 A YEAR AND STILL CRYING POOR!

[Night Owl]

I guess that would be a fair calculation to make, IF these were government subsidized vouchers in New York State that we're talking about.


PUT TOGETHER THE AVERAGE DOLLAR SPENT PER PUPIL AND CONVERT IT TO A VOUCHER, THEN LET THOSE PARENTS AND CHILDREN CHOOSE WHICH

-PUBLIC SCHOOL
-CHARTER SCHOOL
-PRIVATE SCHOOL
-PAROCHIAL SCHOOL


What public schools have tuition?

The City of Buffalo has what's called "school Choice" where students and parents can selected which public school to go to, charter is by choce as well as private schools. The other municipalities, just like Buffalo have schools available for the children within that location (IE- Cheektowaga for residents in Cheektowaga, etc)

[granpabob]

If you choose to send your child to a differant school your taxes should follow the child. Magnet school. private or public should not matter. if vouchers were used a school could recieve more money then the family actually paid. letting taxes a family actually paid follow the child makes sense. what I dont under stand is why charter schools only get a portion of the money, If a child goes to a charter school why does the Buffalo school system still get credit for that child. and recive some of the funds shouldn't it all follow the child or none. My idea is easier If the child goes to a charter school only the parents taxes can follow any more the family should raise. and if the child is not in a school system then it should not get funds for that child.

[therising]

Originally posted by granpabob
If you choose to send your child to a differant school your taxes should follow the child. Magnet school. private or public should not matter.

Wouldn't this result in a financial loss to the public schools, which in turn, would only lead to increased taxes for all of us?

I've never been on a school board, but I would assume that, when budgets are created, they project the tax revenue, and then back out the projected # of kids in the community that go to private schools. If those kids "take their taxes with them", there will obviously be a defecit.
How do you solve a defecit?
Either:
1) Increase Taxes
or
2) Cut services

How does either of the above 2 options make sense? The public schools will either have to cut services, or our school taxes will increase.

How does this make sense?

[granpabob]

If a child goes to a differant school so does the exspense.private schools or charter should not matter. if the child moves his funds follow to the next district. enough people remove their children they can close a school and save money. want to keep the money make your school better so the children dont leave. competition for the children might just improve the schools.best education will attract the most children. only arguement that could get in the way is all the parents who care about their children will go to the good schools. leaving the lower rated schools with the trouble makers and neglected children.

[therising]

Ever hear of "Fixed Costs" and "economies of scale"

In case you haven't:
Fixed Costs -
An indirect cost that remains relatively constant irrespective of the level of operational activity
So, whether there are 1,000 kids in a school, or 900 (let's suppose 100 take their vouchers to private schools), many of the expenses will remain the same - gas, heat, electric. etc.
Maybe you'd need a handfull less teachers (of course tenured teachers can't go, so you'd lay off the lower-paid rookies), but the top-heavy administration will still be the same.

....which leads us to....

Economies of Scale -
Economic principle that as the volume of production increases, the cost of producing each unit decreases
So, if the cost/unit (ie child) increases, guess what? So do our taxes?

You can't just "take your taxes with you" and spend them elsewhere. I don't think it's that simple.

[granpabob]

if the same thing happens in ten schools 1000 would have left and you can close a school sell it off gain profit from the sale and no cost of running that school 10% savings plus sale profit. I no this is just a dream set up and very simplified but we are not stuck with a failing system it can be fixed

[Night Owl]

if the same thing happens in ten schools 1000 would have left and you can close a school sell it off gain profit from the sale and no cost of running that school 10% savings plus sale profit.

And where would the savings go to? Why try to save money? If we pay for it, ever penny should be going into what we pay for.

Since the County Crisis thing, I am skeptical of where money is going these days. If there is a specific amount going towards schools why is there a need for 'savings'?

Remember, all of the cuts and (ideas of) closings is not something that is being done to save the taxpayers any money, it's being done to reduce what we have while we still pay more.

Even in the City of Buffalo, we are looking at school closings, but not a word being breathed about residents' taxes going down, in fact they are going up.

[moonshine]

Vouchers = Welfare.

Keep the government out of my kid's catholic school. Outright elimination of the monstrous public school system is the only way to start rebuilding education in this country. The public school system has done enough harm to your kids.

[Night Owl]

Vouchers = Welfare.

Nope, nope, nope.

Vouchers = private donations that isn't a cost to the taxpayers.
Vouchers = choice for parents & children from private donations.

Keep the government out of my kid's catholic school.

There is no government funding via vouchers going into Catholic Schools. How many times do I have to say this is one thread?

Do I have to write all in caps like moadib (joking) so that the point is made? There is no government subsity/added taxes to the residents by vouchers towards schools, it is not welfare it's a private donation program which is carried out with specific qualifications.

[Night Owl]

BTW- if you're a resident who's living in a suburb where there is a higher cost on the school tax and you choose to sent your child/ren to a private school... it's by your choice to pay for schools twice (IE- tuition and school tax).

[moonshine]

it's by your choice to pay for schools twice

We'll talk about CHOICE when I have the CHOICE to opt out of public school funding.

[therising]

Owl - watch the thread...the conversation went to "we should be able to take our taxes with us" to a private school. We're talking about taxpayers reallocating their school tax to a private school.

We are NOT talking about private donations.

How mant times do we have to say this in 1 thread?:D

Read the last page or so of posts.

[Night Owl]

We are NOT talking about private donations.


Vouchers = Welfare.

:confused:

[moonshine]

No need to be so confused Night Owl. There are thousands of credible arguments that show vouchers = welfare.

Here's one in particular that speak to Supreme Court decision "Zelman, Superintendent of Public Instruction of Ohio, et al. v. Simmons-Harris et al." (argued Feb. 20, 2002-June 27, 2002)

Quote:

So here is the essence of the program approved by the Supreme Court. It takes taxes paid by the earning classes to give to poor parents who enjoy an exclusive right to leave public schools they weren’t paying for anyway to attend private schools which now accept controls over admissions and tuition and curriculum (becoming public schools, in effect).

It's rather simple to find multiple sources to support this argument. All you need to do is type "school vouchers welfare" into your favorite search engine.

A few other links you might want to consider:
http://www.sdst.org/shs/quest/vouchers.html
http://www.fff.org/comment/ed1000e.asp
http://www.neopolitique.org/Np2000/Pages/Commentary/Articles/opposition_vouchers-oct'99.htm

Also, I was never discussing private donations. I think you first brought up the topic in the third reply to the original intent of the thread. If public schools were eliminated the methods of private funding would thrive! My family would hardly be considered wealthy, but I would gladly donate the $1500 per year in school taxes that I pay to a less fortunate friend so they would have the ability to educate their child in a private school. Until the public schools are tied to the railroad tracks I'll be stuck subsidizing a substandard education.

[moonshine]

Oops...forgot the link to my first reference...

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/voucher2.html

[Night Owl]

It's rather simple to find multiple sources to support this argument. All you need to do is type "school vouchers welfare" into your favorite search engine.

Find any in New York State? There may have been government vouchers before, but there isn't any now.

There are no government vouchers in New York State, I said that in a previous post and I didn't think I had to be specific every time I said there isn't any government vouchers. My bad.

Oh, and bwt- you're limiting your searches by using the word 'welfare' because not ALL voucher programs are government subsidized across America. You're limiting the search to the sites that beleive vouchers are "welfare".

[moonshine]

Geez Owl :o


Find any in New York State?

Would you like me to find a reference to public school vouchers in amish schools too? Gimme a break here. Once, and for the last time, I wasn't speaking against private vouchers!

I'll entertain your change of subject request. Simply do a search for "new york school voucher" in Google. The first link is what you were asking for :rolleyes: Have fun signing up for the subscription.

I feel like I'm at a skeet shoot. Where is the target going to move to next?

[Night Owl]

Gimme a break here.

You said that vouchers equal welfare and I wanted to make sure people on the boards don't feel like they are being screwed even more from the government ... In New York State.

[colossus27]

Originally posted by therising
So...what you're saying is that Since we subsidize public schools, we may as well subsidize private schools as well? So, eventually what will happen is that there will be no difference between public schools and private schools.....and you're happy with that??
Congratulations, you've just wiped out an entire industry.
Send the nuns from the catholic schools to the unemployment line. then, we can subsidize them as well.

Couple points here...

1) Private schools- let's start with the local church-school down the street. Do they pay property taxes? No. You're indirectly subsidizing them already.

2) You put private and public schools on the same playing field- guess what? Public schools won't be able to compete. Why? Because they waste money. As an "industry" it's long overdue to be wiped out.

3)You wrote "Public school is not the end of the world."

Explain to me how being forced to pay a gym teacher $80,000 to work 77% of a calendar year benefits the local private-sector job market.

[WNYresident]

1) Private schools- let's start with the local church-school down the street. Do they pay property taxes? No. You're indirectly subsidizing them already.

Public schools don't pay property taxes either so does that mean we are extra subsidizing thier teaching business?

[Night Owl]

goooood point, WNYresident.

[colossus27]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Public schools don't pay property taxes either so does that mean we are extra subsidizing thier teaching business?

"Extra" subsidizing? Illusion. Consider- if you had the schools pay taxes, the tax money they pay goes back to the same government that runs the schools. It's like moving money from one hand to another. If the schools did pay property taxes, it would be taxing the public twice. Which, I'm sure, the government would delight in doing.

The problem is then you'd need to tax parochial schools too..and we all know that the constitution supposedly forbids that.

This circular thinking is like the STAR discount- they get your money anyway. You take the total amount these clowns strongarm you to pay, divide by the total assessed valuation, and that generates a rate per thousand. Where does a "discount" figure into it? It doesn't. If everybody had the discount, nobody would have it. They still need All of Their Money and you still have to pay it. According to the assessor's office, in Lancaster everybody gets a letter to apply. Conclusion? Your discount is illusory.

All STAR does is gives the government a red-tape excuse to punish (I mean overcharge) people that bought a home and whose timing didn't coincide with the application process.

[leftWNYbecauseofBS]

Wouldn't this result in a financial loss to the public schools, which in turn, would only lead to increased taxes for all of us?

I've never been on a school board, but I would assume that, when budgets are created, they project the tax revenue, and then back out the projected # of kids in the community that go to private schools. If those kids "take their taxes with them", there will obviously be a defecit.
How do you solve a defecit?
Either:
1) Increase Taxes
or
2) Cut services

How does either of the above 2 options make sense? The public schools will either have to cut services, or our school taxes will increase.

How does this make sense?


The concept of funding following the child is in wide use in Northern Europe. Schools have to compete with each other to keep the child, which in turn gives them access to the funds attached to the child. If the school looses students, they loose funding.

I think the concept of vouchers in the US is much different then other parts of the world. For example, if the government wants to spend $9000 on a child, that child has a voucher for $9000. When he enrolls the school he attends gets the 9k.

When the concept of school vouchers was brought to the US years ago, it was beaten around and twisted by the teacher union. Today it is still called vouchers, but it does not act like one.

As far as your first question, yes a voucher would lead to loss of school funding. However under a TRUE voucher system, there would be no bail out of taxpayer money. If there we 20k students in buffalo schools and each had a 8k voucher, there would be a pool of 160 million in funds. If private and catholic schools got 15k of those students, the public schools would have to survive on 40 million.

The reason why this program would NEVER happen is it would create competition for the school funds. When the funds are attached to the kids, the kids come first. If the public school system could not attract the kids like private schools, the funding would dry up. This would lead to charter and private (NON UNION) schools opening and public (UNION) schools closing.

Basically, the public schools would not petition politicians or the government for funding. They would not set a budget. They would have to compete for kids by outperforming the competition. Based on how many kids they got, that would be the budget.

The funny thing is, this would not kill the public schools. It would shrink them but make them healthy. For example, there are only so many kids that St. Joe's would take. If St. Joe's would take more then they could educate, then they would loose kids.

Theoretically speaking, the teacher are good in the public schools, they are just not enough of them. Well vouchers would even out where kids go.

The cost of education would not go up, but rather the competition for that HUGE amount of money would make the education better. America spends more per child on education compared to EVERY country in the world.

There was a great story done by 20/20 called Stupid in America that outlined a lot of this.

[Cgoodsp466]

A scholarship is one thing, a free ride voucher is another.

Can someone give me one good reason for vouchers??

Vouchers arent a free ride,you still pay school tax. A good reason CHOICE

[Cgoodsp466]

Regardless of whether or not there are government voucher/scholarship programs, the title of this poll is "Do you support school vouchers?". and 2/3 of the respondents have answered Yes.

Yet, no one provided a reason as to Why they support them.

You don't need to go to a private school to learn the reading, writing, basics. Just like you don't need to go to a County Club to learn to play golf.

Theoretically, to me, it's the same thing. Why should I spend my own money to spend my kids to private school if the kid at the next desk is getting a subsidy??

Public school is not the end of the world.

The public school system is nothing but a money machine for the teachers Union,have you seen the product the public school system is turning out? Parents should have a choice Just like I have a choice of Golf Courses.

[Cgoodsp466]

So...what you're saying is that Since we subsidize public schools, we may as well subsidize private schools as well? So, eventually what will happen is that there will be no difference between public schools and private schools.....and you're happy with that??
Congratulations, you've just wiped out an entire industry.
Send the nuns from the catholic schools to the unemployment line. then, we can subsidize them as well.

The entire industry,so you are one of them!!!!!!!!!!! No need to continue a dialog with you. You are part of the problem.

[Timmy]

you will have to forgive therising...he is attempting to say that school vouchers and school choice will fall under the same type of communist burocratic centralized inefficiencies and incompetencies that warehouse kids in factories that produce little more than state and federal aid...because they sure as heck do not produce world class students

what therising is to liberally blinded for his mind to comprehend is that the entire school choice and school voucher program is meant to decentralize education so that each school competes to turn out the best product: a well mannered, well educated, disciplined and focussed individual ready for the full onslaught of the global workplace.

decentralization means that the parents, school principle and the licensing board has more say over how a school is run, how to discipline kids, core curriculum, extracurricular activities, than unions and the school board...where the trend to hire more and more administrators and then billing the taxpayer will finally end...and the curriculum is aimed at students rather than tenured teachers with masters in love with their own voice and getting their wives and relatives hired as administrators to supplement the family income.