New Library

[Unregistered]

Make the new library already. The only thing new in these two libraries are the computers. I remember walking to both of these out dated book closets and not finding the material I needed for research. When I was in school the Dudley branch had only one computer. One. It was not on the internet. (Now the biggest research tool). I had to stay downtown and go to the county library. I hope that this new library comes for the sake of my children. I wish success upon kids and will make the time to get them to the resources theyrequire. If you are not able to get them there yourself,how about a grandparent, an aunt, or is your friends mother / father taking him / her ? I have lived in South Buffalo all my 28 years and have purchased a house there.
I know that eventhing is within walking distance for most. It is safe enough to let children of reasonable age(7th or 8th graders)
walk to the library. These libraries were outdated 10 years ago.Time to move on.

[buffalofamily]

The Cazenovia and Dudley libraries have 23 computers combined, more than what is needed most of the time. We visit each library a few times a week and have never had to wait for computer time.

Will a new library have 24 or more computers? They are promising more computers. BTW - All new technology goes into all branches system wide. It makes no difference how old the building is. Caz was wired for all new technology not too long ago. I asked many supporters of the new library "What new technology are you promising that is not being offered now?", and get a blank look for an answer, or a quick change of subject.

Who is to blame for the reduction in the number of books in Dudley and Cazenovia??? The bookshelves have a lot of space to fill, so why the need for more space? BTW - The new proposed library is only 12,000 square feet. The Clarence library that keeps coming up in videos and fliers for the new library is not what they are proposing.

Buffalo IS building a new 20,000 square foot North Jefferson Library NOW, so South Buffalo doesn't need a bad deal that CLOSES 2 libraries to get one. Why not let the citizens of South Buffalo decide how to spend $4,000,000 on library services. We could probably fix up the two we have now and save about $3,850,000. This could be done by taking the politicians out of the picture.

These libraries have all the books, movies, magazines, computer and everything that my children need for their school projects including easy access.

Your neighbors - Buffalo family

[WNYresident]

People do you see a pattern here? The people don't want to spend the money for the new library.. BUT they are getting it rammed at them. Which group of residents are asking for a new library?

WHat is wrong with NOT spending the $4,000,000 at all? Just leave what is there enless the community in the general area is asking for a new library. I'm getting the feeling no one cares to have it..

Also what is the monthly running cost max of the new one? Now i hear that want to perhaps have a museium too in the old librray? That's more payroll more cost..

If we save net $20,000 a month on running cost... we DON"T show a savings for 200 years seeing we are spending $4,000,000 up front. Divid $4,000,000 by $20,000 a month in savings. $4,000,000 /$20,000 = 200 years. Am i right?

NOw if the number prove something on the order of $200,000 a year savings min net cost to the taxpayer then our savings start in 20 years. But you know what .. that's long too.

Now if we are saving $900,000 a year you payback is only 4.4 years that means yoru saving is worth the investment.

But if you don't lay off people and hiring more to have perhaps a museum as one poster said... It's just stupid.

The people who are making these decisions have to fix the internal issues of what we have here before deciding cutting our perks.

DO these people who have the meetings to tell the people why they are making thier decisions giving TRUE dollar numbers numbers with written max spending limits once it starts?

Almost everything they do always cost us more! If it didn't are taxes would be stable and not rising as they are.

[Allyssa]

I hope the readers have the capability to ask themselves this question:

Would a place like Home Depot offer the materials to construct a new mansion to a rich person when there are so many homeless families living a few miles away?

If (and that is a big IF) the B&ECPL system is really concerned about building a new library, they should take a long, hard look at the communites that really need one.

~Allyssa~

[sethtriggs]

Originally posted by Allyssa
I hope the readers have the capability to ask themselves this question:

Would a place like Home Depot offer the materials to construct a new mansion to a rich person when there are so many homeless families living a few miles away?

If (and that is a big IF) the B&ECPL system is really concerned about building a new library, they should take a long, hard look at the communites that really need one.

~Allyssa~

Over in the East Side, people have welcomed the new North Jefferson library, it's a pillar of the community. The existing library is falling apart and leaking water into the place. I didn't know construction had actually started on the new library. I like this sort of thing, this reinvestment is very positive and sends the message that the people in that community are not worthless to the rest of the city.

-Seth

[Unregistered]

private industry "invests", hoping for a future return on the investment. "reinvestment" would imply that a buisiness is going to repeat an investment that it had previously engaged in.
City government "spends" consuming resources diverted from the taxpayers.
Please don't confuse free market investment with pork barrel spending.

[Allyssa]

seth,

On the contrary to N. Jefferson, the existing libraries in South Buffalo have nothing wrong with them. Aside from Cazenovia's lack of handicap accessability... which the B&ECPL should have addressed and then recontructed it many, many years ago. Now that they want to build a new one, they're using the lack of their own Responsibilities to gain support from the communities. Dudley is disabled friendly. Plus, they're using the Clarence branch as an example without telling the public that the new one is not going to be the size of Clarence.

How well would reinvestment work at the expense of losing two? Can you help me to understand the positive message of children and senior citizens walking for two miles in any kind of Buffalo weather? These two branches have a very high volume of local (walking) patrons from very young to very old.

I feel the public library system should devide up the four Million dollars and "reinvest" in what's already standing in place of building one new library in one neighborhood. The B&ECPL should consider all of it's patrons... aside from N. Jefferson community that is in the process of gaining a new building.

~~~~~~~~~~~

WNYresident,

the group pushing for the new library is mostly the politicians, and residents that faithfully follow them.

You're right, they're still going to have to maintain a newer structure and they're claiming not to cut any employees from either branch. So the payroll will stay the same. Any time you ask them questions other than what they want to hear, you're just overlooked... a lot of "reflective listening" going on and not a chance that our opinions are being actually heard. (As evident from the other library thread where the "unregistered" user spun off every thing I said).

[Unregistered]

"spun off" - defined as: having another person cite and present evidence contrary to my incorrect facts and/or assumtions. See "refusal to accept US census bureau data as fact in other thread" as a good example of "spun off"....

[Allyssa]

Are you talking about census bureau data as fact on the libraries???

[Allyssa]

In case anyone's interested, I found some numbers and other reading materials on the B&ECPL website.

The new library proposal is going against their own "principles (#6) and Bill of Rights (IV)"

This is their MISSION STATEMENT

Our mission is to enrich the lives of the individuals of Erie County's diverse communities by creating and sustaining superior public library services through responsive staff, dynamic collections, appropriate technology and access to global information.

Principles
The Buffalo and Erie County Public Library will:
1.Provide open, equal and free access to information in accordance with the American Library Association's "Library Bill of Rights."
2.Deliver timely, confidential and customer-oriented service to meet the informational, recreational and educational needs of the community.
3.Promote lifelong learning by encouraging all children and adults in their enjoyment of reading and discovery.
4.Contribute to the region's economic vitality by assisting individuals, businesses and government as they pursue better jobs and economic growth.
5.Create and maintain an environment that attracts, develops and encourages a diverse and skilled staff.
6.Listen to the entire community in pursuit of the Library’s Mission.
7.Manage resources effectively and be accountable to its funding sources.
8.Pursue the private and public funding necessary to fulfill the Library’s Mission.
Adopted December 17, 1998

ALA Library Bill of Rights
The American Library Association affirms that all libraries are forums for information and ideas, and that the following basic policies should guide their services.

I. Books and other library resources should be provided for the interest, information, and enlightenment of all people of the community the library serves. Materials should not be excluded because of the origin, background, or views of those contributing to their creation.
II. Libraries should provide materials and information presenting all points of view on current and historical issues. Materials should not be proscribed or removed because of partisan or doctrinal disapproval.
III. Libraries should challenge censorship in the fulfillment of their responsibility to provide information and enlightenment.
IV. Libraries should cooperate with all persons and groups concerned with resisting abridgment of free expression and free access to ideas.
V. A person’s right to use a library should not be denied or abridged because of origin, age, background, or views.
VI. Libraries which make exhibit spaces and meeting rooms available to the public they serve should make such facilities available on an equitable basis, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of individuals or groups requesting their use.
Adopted June 18, 1948.
Amended February 2, 1961, and January 23, 1980,
inclusion of "age" reaffirmed January 23, 1996, by the ALA Council.

This and more information can be found at:
http://www.buffalolib.org/aboutthelibrary/index.asp
Which includes Library system stats of each branch for 2000/2001 as well as a finacial summary and more.

**Some links on their website are supported by adobe acrobat reader and may not to available to everyone.

[buffalofamily]

Thanks Allyssa,

It looks like the libray system should follow their policy, but they don't.

At the national ALA convention this year librarians were speaking out in favor os saving the libraries! They are no longer afraid to speak up and do their job! This is not the case in Buffalo. A few library employees I spoke to the other day are afraid to speak out and save the libraries.

An interisting point was brought up at a recent Save our Libraries petition signing. The Save our Libraries literature is presenting all facts based on public records and statements made by library officials at public meetings. The "new" library drive is full of nothing. what gives here? Three informal meetings gave us no location, no blueprints, no imput as to what we want in the community, no information on the "NEW" technology that will be special to this library alone, no specific plans for the two buildings that would be empty, and no specific proposal on how the new location could be with access to all South Buffalo neighborhoods via Public Transportation.

Let's get to the truth! They are not giving the South Buffalo Community a fair proposal. We should not give up our neighborhood libraries.

Buffalo family

[Unregistered]

you forgot to mention this violation as well:

"7.Manage resources effectively and be accountable to its funding sources."

[Allyssa]

This was also found on the Buffal and Erie County Library's wesite under the Policies heading:

GUIDELINES FOR NEW LIBRARY CONSTRUCTION

BACKGROUND
While the Buffalo and Erie County Public Library's Board of Trustees acknowledges the need for improved library service in various areas of population growth or residential development, the Board must weigh many factors before it formally approves any expansion, new construction or the replacement of inadequate facilities. Some of the costs associated with such projects must be borne by local municipalities or as a regional cooperative of municipalities, but certain expenses traditionally borne by the System (personnel, books, equipment, utilities, etc.) might divert funds from other areas of the county.

Since 1953, The Buffalo and Erie County Public Library Board has determined the priority of capital projects within the Library System. It is essential that the integrity of this policy be honored if we hope to preserve equity of service and operations. State and local statutes support this position.

With limited funds, derived largely from the County of Erie, the B&ECPL must support a network of more than fifty separate facilities throughout the City of Buffalo and the outlying cities, towns, and villages of the county. When this System was established nearly fifty years ago, its purpose was to provide equitable distribution of library service to all Erie County residents regardless of location, income, political affiliation or any other qualification.

Attempts to unilaterally augment library service in any community without the endorsement of the Library Board subverts the Board's legal authority. Concepts such as regionalization or innovative funding strategies must be explored in order to avoid imposing undue burdens on the entire System.

*** The Board cannot approve any proposed project that might enhance the quality of library service in one area at the expense of another.


Which means clearly that if the New Library is built on Seneca Street as proposed, the area in which Dudley is located will lose out. The Buffalo and Erie County Public Library system is again going against their own policies!!!!!

[Allyssa]

According to their proposal, the new library will have approx. 12,000 square feet of library space.

But, according to their figures: One acre equals 43,560 square feet. So, if the library is exactly 12,000 sq. feet as they plan, their New Library Construction Parameter Guidelines says that the Minimum site size of 12,000 sq. feet is to be set on 1.1 acres of land.

And what will become of the remaining 31,560+ square feet that is required accordance to the B&ECPL new library construction guidelines? That's more than two times the amount of space of the actual building itself.

This proposed size of the new library is nowhere near the square footage in Clarence, and yet they're using the Clarence Branch as the example to sell this idea.

And where will they find more than 44,000 square feet of available land to reconstruct this new building?

[sethtriggs]

Well, I think they should just fix up the existing libraries and be done with it. If the people want the two libraries there then they should have them.

Now, Mr. Unregistered. How dare you imply the North Jefferson library project is "pork barrel spending!" That library is one of the few bright spots in that neighborhood, and is frequently utilized by the people there. I should know, I used to live near there (now I live downtown). It *is* reinvestment. For the longest time, the areas in the center of town have been neglected by both the city and private industry. Now we're getting a chance for a catalyst to rebuild the area.

Once before the area was invested in. Now it is being invested in again once more, with the new Tops supermarket and Canisius College's expansion among other things.

That's reinvestment in my book.

-Seth

[Allyssa]

Part of the reason why charter schools are so successful is because they take advantage of what's already standing and reinvest from there. I saw a charter school open up in an old Kmart site. I say keep the libraries the way they are, fix up what needs fixing and replace them when needed.

[buffalofamily]

Well said Seth and Allyssa! We could fix up Cazenovia as a historical library. It's a beautiful example of solid older buildings that continue to serve us well.

I saw the Mansion on Deleware Avenue (MODA). What an excellent example of preservation and smart use of an existing building.

Buffalo family!

[buffalofamily]

A letter we got in the mail today. Very interesting points!

Neighbors,

At first when we heard about a new Library in South Buffalo, we were in favor, but after attending three informal meetings we are opposed!

The politicians avoided giving us any real answers or even letting the public give any choices in this process. All they showed us was a fancy video of the Clarence Library. They are not proposing anything near what the Clarence is. They are stating that we need new "technology", when it's a fact that all the libraries get the new computers and programs system wide!

The Save Our Libraries group has over 1,550 petition signatures against this plan, and all of my friends and neighbors don't like the idea either. Why aren't we given a choice? Why are we being ignored?

Why are they (the politicians and library board) spreading misinformation to South Buffalo with bulk mailings? At Who’s expense?

True information based on public records of the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library and other public records tells the real truth! This is the real information used in the Save Our Library literature!

HOW DID ONE MEETING TO GUAGE INTEREST IN THE COMMUNITY BECOME A FORMAL MEETING??? We were asked by a Library Board Member if we wanted to come back for another meeting to get more information. NO REAL INFORMATION WAS AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC AT THE FIRST INFORMAL MEETING!

HOW DID THE SECONED MEETING (held during a snowstorm when everything else in WNY was cancelled) BECOME THE BASIS FOR THIS AWFUL DECISION (based on the politicians friends and supporters that did attend) ??? NO NEW INFORMATION WAS GIVEN OTHER THAN A PROMISE OF "$4,000,000 or whatever it takes".

At the last informal meeting (WRONG ADDRESS WAS GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC FOR THE THIRD MEETING LOCATION BY THE LIBRARY OFFICIALS IN FLIERS AND PRESS) some were in favor, some were opposed and most weren't sure either way on weather they wanted a change in services! SOME RESIDENTS QUESTIONS WERE IGNORED AND NO INFORMATION GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC!!!

Something is wrong with this situation. We think further investigation into this matter is in order. Maybe the media should look at the facts from both sides of this issue. So far, the media has ignored the community and sided with the politicians and Library board!

Remember if it’s built on Seneca Street, the South Park area loses access. If it’s constructed in the South Park neighborhood, the Seneca Street district residents are without service. If it’s built on McKinley, both of our neighborhoods lose accessibility.

Willa Waters

[buffalofamily]

LIBRARY UPDATE !!!

Officials planning to close Caz and Dudley libraries told South Buffalo that one new library would be "bigger, better, newer..." than 2. NOW they are telling us that it would be "bigger,..." than EITHER!!! Do you know what that means, South Buffalo? Not only would you have HALF the ACCESS, but basically HALF the books, computers, meeting rooms, references,...and LESS hours, staff,...! It would only be "newer".

There's NO PROOF given that ONE new library would be better than TWO existing ones: NO Site, architect, plans, or specifics...

SUBURBAN LIBRARIES aren't "newer,...": 75% of them were built in the 1970's or before. A new 12,000 sq. ft. library would be smaller: CAZ is Buffalo's 5th. largest library; Dudley has an "open, modern design"; together they = 15,662 sq. ft.

MORE NEWS TO COME

Buffalo family -- stand by

[Curmudgeon]

"Remember if it’s built on Seneca Street, the South Park area loses access. If it’s constructed in the South Park neighborhood, the Seneca Street district residents are without service. If it’s built on McKinley, both of our neighborhoods lose accessibility."

Yes, there's a downside to consolidation and reductions of services city-wide. Sounds like no matter what, you've had 2 libraries, and now you'll have one. At least you have some input on where it will be. Or, you can choose which of the existing you want to keep. That's what happens when the city goes bankrupt.

[WNYresident]

YOU do not spend $4,000,000 without good reason period. If the maintance/labor cost savings do not have a good payback period you do not build a new library. There are much better uses for that money. Back into the peoples pockets.

All this thread as done is make me angry over the stupidity of the people we have deciding to spend our money.

Just as we can come up with an arguement not to spend the money they better start coming up with the reasons why we should.

A reason of "We need to build it to make some developer money" is a crock of horse poop.

It's time they consolidate themselves first before the people.

[buffalofamily]

Curmudgeon,

You are wrong when you stated:
Yes, there's a downside to consolidation and reductions of services city-wide. Sounds like no matter what, you've had 2 libraries, and now you'll have one. At least you have some input on where it will be. Or, you can choose which of the existing you want to keep. That's what happens when the city goes bankrupt.

It's not a city project. It's a county attempt to build a HUB library. It won't save us a penny. In fact, Buffalo would still be paying for the existing buildings in the form of reuse. Remember that they are promising to find uses for Caz and Dudley. They are owned by the City. I did not know we were in bankrupcy court! WOW! When did we file?

It's not a city without money issue. Tonawanda, Aurora, & N. Buffalo told them to shove "this take it or leave it" "offer"

IT'S ABOUT FREE ACCESS TO INFORMATION -

Buffalo family

[Curmudgeon]

" I did not know we were in bankrupcy court! WOW! When did we file?"
There IS no bankruptcy court for municipalities. The only thing the state government can do is take the power of self-governance away from the people who have abused it. That is the purpose of the control board. I use the term "bankrupty court" to accurately illustrate the true reality of the situation in terms that most individuals can relate to and understand.

[Curmudgeon]

"It's not a city project. It's a county attempt to build a HUB library. It won't save us a penny. In fact, Buffalo would still be paying for the existing buildings in the form of reuse. Remember that they are promising to find uses for Caz and Dudley. They are owned by the City. I did not know we were in bankrupcy court! WOW! When did we file?"

Those buildings, if no longer used as lbraries should be sold. If there are no purchasers, they should be demolished and the property readied for return to the tax rolls. "Reuse" = more taxpayer expenditure - "community center" or some other money pit.

[buffalofamily]

Sounds impressive, but the County legislator and library officials want reuse at our expense. A museum for Caz is one stupid idea they came up with.

THE PROPOSED "NEW" LIBRARY IS THE MONEY PIT. It could take property already paying taxes and use domain powers to purchase them.

We would be paying for demolition, building, restocking , fixtures, furnishing... We have libraries that work and are not a big expense. Really!!!


IT'S A PLAN THAT WON"T SAVE US A PENNY IN OUR LIFETIME AND BEYOND!!!

BF

[Curmudgeon]

"Sounds impressive, but the County legislator and library officials want reuse at our expense. A museum for Caz is one stupid idea they came up with. "
I's a stupid idea because it will never happen. Dumb ideas are free. This is a lie to get you to sign off on going from 2 libraries to one.

THE PROPOSED "NEW" LIBRARY IS THE MONEY PIT. It could take property already paying taxes and use domain powers to purchase them.
You're making the assumption that there is no unoccupied property already owned by the city that is available. Very unlikely, considering the number of properties owned by the city by the tax foreclosure process.

"We have libraries that work and are not a big expense. ". What is the expense?
Total staff costs, heating, maintence, ect. Show me the numbers vs. one new library with reduced staff, maintence costs. I don't really have it "in" for your libraries - just a strong dislike for special interest groups. You MAY be right. I want to see consolidation and an overall reduction in the number of libraries. Maybe they screwed up in S.Buffalo in regards to libraries. Prove it.

[WNYresident]

See we want the items in writing. Now we will cut electric in half seeing it's only one building not two plus heating should be a little lower seeing you heating one building.

So lets say we save $500 a month in gas and $500 a month in electric....

Lets see..

$4,000,000 / $1000 = 333 years before we see a payback.

Now lets be an optimist here...

Lets say we save $4000 a month.

$4,000,000 / $4000 = 83 years.


This is WHY WNY is broke and doesn't have a lot to show for the money collected in taxes.

I'm sorry that we have so many idiots in our local/county goverment.

[Curmudgeon]

You haven't put everything on the table. How about reductions in the labor force. perhaps the only way to get rid of excess people is to decommision the libraries where they work and build a new library. Or maintenence that will be needed 5 or ten years down the road.. I'd like to see ALL the numbers, not one heating bill.

[WNYresident]

Yes Curd.. I was just making a basic example. But you see how new buildings are built, Junk.

Whole point is nothing is in writing and there are no figures to base a good decision on.

Even if we save $10,000 amonth the payback period is too ling to justify the $4,000,000 cost.

They said they will NOT lay off any people so there will be not cost savings there.

T

[Allyssa]

That's just it Curmudgeon; There's nothing on the table that they (the library system) have in writing... it's just a whole lot of talk from the politicians. No project blueprints, no design posibitilies, no location selected... And no numbers from the B&ECPL system.

Facts and figures aren't forthcoming from them... except the amount of $4 million and 12, 000 square feet. And they promised the entire staff would not be "let go". There won't be any savings... just a disruption in the "quality of life" of South Buffalo.

Three other areas that the B&ECPL system covers have already refussed this propossal, which could only mean that there are still more people who see the this as A Bad Deal !!!

This consolidation push is going to be tried in every neighborhood ... in every town throughout Erie County. And they're looking for towns to share one facility with it's neighboring town as well.

[Allyssa]

Curmudgeon,

You said: If there are no purchasers, they should be demolished...

One of the library Branches in question is on Olmsted Property and can not be demolished, it is protected because it sits at the edge of an Olmsted Park.

[WNYresident]

Can it be that a labor agreement needs a job to do so give them a library?

I know this sounds odd but they made promises to give people jobs and building a library wether needed or not would be jobs at hte tax payers expense.

Perhaps if the politicians started writing things down and doing the numbers they'd find out they are not needed also :)

[Curmudgeon]

"This consolidation push is going to be tried in every neighborhood ... in every town throughout Erie County. And they're looking for towns to share one facility with it's neighboring town as well."
Yes, sounds good to me. There are just too many libraries to support a declining population. That's what "consolidation" means. That's one of the reasons why Buffalo is bankrupt - too many libraries.

If the library adjecent to the Olmstead park lies within the park AND was part of the original design of the park then that structure demands special consideration. If both of the above conditions cannot bet met, then I say it's fair game for consideration of closure and liquidation.

[Allyssa]

The caz branch was build on Olmsted land... obviously with Olmsted approval because nothing can be built, demolished and/or rebuilt on Olmsted property without. Caz IS on Olmsted Land and can not be torn down.

That's one of the reasons why Buffalo is bankrupt - too many libraries.

First of all "too many Libraries" didn't get the entire city of Buffalo into some of the Financial trouble it's in. There are only 15 libraries in Buffalo and these two branches are within the top 4 of circulation.

And secondly, when did the city of Buffalo file for Bankruptcy? Did I miss the big announcement on the filing??? When did it happen??

[buffalofamily]

Allyssa,

Great point! Cazenovia was also expanded in the 1960's to have a capacity that serves us well into the 2000's! All the major fixing up was done in the mid to late 90's with roof repairs and minor repairs. What a bargain it is for our tax money. WOW! A library that has been serving the community well since 1925, and continues to do a great service to all the community.

BECPL is renovating the Central library for $5.1 million, including turning the childrens room into a "park" with fake trees and park benches. CAZENOVIA HAS REAL TREES AND A PARKTO ENJOY RIGHT OUTSIDE IT'S DOORS!!!

CAZ IS part of the Olmstead park. In fact, it's a complex that includes the library, baseball fields, tennis courts, golf course, sprinkle pool, indoor olympic size pool, ice skating rink, casino, jogging & bike paths, creek, playground and more! WE COULD NOT ASK FOR A BETTER LOCATION THAT COSTS VERY LITTLE TO MANTAIN.

THE politicians should think before they make decitions that will cost us millions, and take away successful library services that cost very little of our taxes.

Buffalo family

[Curmudgeon]

"And secondly, when did the city of Buffalo file for Bankruptcy? Did I miss the big announcement on the filing??? When did it happen??"

A municipality cannot "file for bankrupcy". The only thing that can be done is for the state to take away the ability of the people to govern themselves. That is exactly what is occuring with the Control Board. They are there to run the city. Notice how they had their first meeting yesterday without even informing the common council? That's because the council is now pretty irrelevent. There's some writing on the wall; you shuld read it.

[Curmudgeon]

"First of all "too many Libraries" didn't get the entire city of Buffalo into some of the Financial trouble it's in. "

Yes, too many of everything got us to where we are now. Time to cut back. I think S. Buffalo should be given a choice - build a new library and close the other 2 or just close dudley and keep caz. one library either way. which would you choose?

[WNYresident]

CUrd,

I"m on the side of the library people on this one. Yes after 80 or more years from now we might start seeing a savings by consolidating into one library but without numbers the libraries should stay.

Here's a group of people that do not want to spend $4,000,000. What is everyones issue then?

Would you buy a new furnace if you didn't have something that states in writing the amount of money you could save?

Consolidating needs to start internally first. All the elected officials, county "engineers", patronage must stop first before you take away items that are used directly by the people.

Curd you have some valid points, but without something in writing to show savings, a guarantee that labor will be cut with the new library or something, these people should stay pissed and not allow the library to close.

We shouldn't be arguing if the library should be closed, we should be arguing why the procedure to decid is done so stupidly.

I want items in writing with guarantees with facts. Not what they think verbaly will happen.

[buffalofamily]

Yes!

It should be the Library board and officials showing us how much we'll save. They have had ample time over the last year and a half to show the public how much we'll save.

ALL THEY HAVE SHOWN IS THAT THEY HAVE MUCH TO HIDE!

They are promising no cuts in staff = NO SAVINGS

They are promising no cuts in hours = NO SAVINGS

What is the real reason for this? Money? Power? Greed? Hidden agendas?

[Curmudgeon]

One thing I can't argue with is facts. Let's see some facts. My gut instinct tells me less libararies = less money. I think the library administrators intend to build new regional libraires and then close all the old small ones. They just didn't have to courage to tell you the real plan yet. I like that plan. One BIG library downtown and 6-7 libraries in the city total. Sounds what like most other healty cities have of Buffalos size. Consolidate and downsize. It's the only way.

[Curmudgeon]

"They are promising no cuts in staff = NO SAVINGS"

Why are they even promising the general population that? Why would anyone care, except people who work for the library? I say replace the checkout people with barcodes on the books and magnetic swipe library cards. Self service. Like at the gas pumps. Get rid of them!

[Allyssa]

In defense of the staff... These are working people, are you talking about putting people out of a job? and then what? It's a theory that feeds the UNEMPLOYED rate a big, fat juicy stake. The unemployed population gets larger and larger... we want to save jobs, we want people (working for the library) to keep what they have to support their families and etc.

I got to say this: People are not the expendable Pawns in a chess game... employment is the survival in the game of REAL life!

At three public meetings, they said that there would be no lay-off's to the staff of these two branches.

BTW- go back to your own words... you said the city of Buffalo is bankrupt! If A municipality cannot "file for bankrupcy" then how can you say the city is bankrupt?

Financial difficulties... yes, but bankrupt... you said it not me.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, we should help the region by lowering the unemployment rate.... Let's give EVERYONE who is jobless a government job! That will lower the unemployment rate for sure!!!!

No - what we want is to CUT jobs. The more, the better. That will lower the taxation rate which is driving private sector jobs out of the area.

"I got to say this: People are not the expendable Pawns in a chess game... employment is the survival in the game of REAL life!"
As if firing civil servants will cause their death?? No, they will find another job - they always do, like everyone else. Remove as many as possible. I'm sure that thinking is not popular in S. Buffalo, where just about everyone is employed by the public sector.

"BTW- go back to your own words... you said the city of Buffalo is bankrupt! If A municipality cannot "file for bankrupcy" then how can you say the city is bankrupt?"
the Control Board is the municipal equivalance of bankruptcy. The higher level of government takes over. 6 and a half-dozen are the same thing. Kind of like "laid-off" and "downsized" are the same thing. To not acknowledge that is an excercise in self-deception.

[buffalofamily]

Library workers are being told they won't lose their job if they support the plan. They are being held political hostage. In other Cities librarians fight to keep libraries open.

BTW- Libraries are a small expense.

Buffalo branches full time & part time salary and wages is only 12.11% of the total workforce expense of the library system. Not much would be saved by cutting Buffalo branches. It's probably the big shots we should cut downtown. Let's cut them first before any cuts in our services.

CUT PATRONAGE JOBS & NOT SERVICES

THIS PLAN WILL COST MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. HOW WILL THAT SAVE MONEY?

Good schools and libraries are why people chose where they want to live.

These two successful libraries are not costing us much at all. They are a bargain for the community.

BF

[Curmudgeon]

"BTW- Libraries are a small expense."
They are ALL small expenses, until they add up. I'm an equal opportunity analyst - cut everything severly....

"CUT PATRONAGE JOBS & NOT SERVICES "
No, CUT PATRONAGE JOBS & AND SERVICES, and everything else that is not absolutly nessessary for the short-term survival of the region - this includes libraries.

"Good schools and libraries are why people chose where they want to live. "
Nope, they primary choose by OPPORTUNITY, something severly lacking in Buffalo. The declining poulation as illustratrated by census data is proof of this.

"These two successful libraries are not costing us much at all. They are a bargain for the community."
for YOUR community, how about the city, or region? not a very good deal at all for them.

"Library workers are being told they won't lose their job if they support the plan. They are being held political hostage. In other Cities librarians fight to keep libraries open."
In every city or company workers fight to keep their jobs. So what else is new? I don't give a rat's a** about thier jobs - they sure don't care about mine...

[Allyssa]

You are wrong when you wrote:

They are ALL small expenses, until they add up. I'm an equal opportunity analyst - cut everything severly....

Libraries are only about 2% of the entire Erie County Budget.

You say:No, CUT PATRONAGE JOBS & AND SERVICES, and everything else that is not absolutly nessessary for the short-term survival of the region - this includes libraries

But these are vital services for all citizens.

Another mistake yo made:

Nope, they primary choose by OPPORTUNITY, something severly lacking in Buffalo. The declining poulation as illustratrated by census data is proof of this

We still have close to a million people. Many of these near million left the city for better schools for their childern. Many MANY studies have shown this.

FACT: Caz and Dudley each serve more people per location than suburban and other city locations. Great servive at a great savings!

Curmudgeon: I care about your job. I know they don't because of the way they are ruining everything that's good in WNY.

[Curmudgeon]

nope. I don't buy it. close 'em and get rid of the workers. it's the only way.

[buffalofamily]

I agree with WNYresident and Allissa. They make some sense and base their positions on some fact. Thanks !

BF

[sethtriggs]

What I want to know is why it's assumed that taxes would naturally drop after a mass firing at Curmudgeon's beck and call? If I remember correctly there's debts to pay still that will always be with us, no matter how many people you think are union and/or patronage people. I don't know how that would change things.

I do know that it would probably result in an expansion of unemployment claims...

-Seth

[WNYresident]

We need to start cutting the losses now. DO not dig yoruself deeper into debt. If you know you don't have the revenue to cover what you have don't continue to put the resident into debt. You know we are the ones that pay for it whether it's a fee or a tax.

[Curmudgeon]

"I do know that it would probably result in an expansion of unemployment claims..."

yes, but you only have to pay 1/2 of their salary for 6 months and then you're done. It sure beats paying surplus employees forever and them giving them a fat retirement....

" I don't know how that would change things." I'm assuming mathematics isn't one of your strengths. If you're in debt, spend less.

[WNYresident]

When business slows down business owners go with less. It's simple as that. Perhaps that business owner loses his sports car, thier yearly vacation, maybe cut back on the health insurance package, or perhaps even thier home. Then they live on what they are earning at a lower level. A lot of these goverment people earn rather high salaries for the results we see from there efforts.


Now you get a little greedy with your pay and now all the sudden that business has to move away seeing they can't afford to pay for the services you are trying to offer them.

Perhaps the white collar goverment workers won't be able to earn over $100,000 for thier positions. If a business can't survive in the area how do you expect your salary to be paid? The cost of runnign a business and property taxes are just too high.

It's common sense.

And a message to the burbs, your over doing it too. As soon as the burb people go to the next "area" you'll be sitting like buffalo. So lets start cleaning it all up now and use the control board of buffalo as an example.

[Allyssa]

of all the Library branches in Erie county, the Buffalo ones are not run by it's own panel. All of the other villages, townships and etc. have their own library board to make decissions.

And further more... the Clarence branch that the politicians are using as an example is what the people... residents of Clarence asked for. They asked their Library board for a new, larger facility. This "example" that the politicians use is merely half of the truth... they are trying to decieve the SB residents!

Giambra wants to make this proposal in SB the pilot project for a county wide consolidation... by asking bordering towns to share one library. I beleive there are 22 branches throughout Erie County... how much more do they want to take from the public?

*********
to Curmudgeon,
you said "If you're in debt, spend less". but let's say Burger King is in financial dificulties... does that mean that KFC has to cut back on their spending, lay-off employees and etc?

You're assuming because Buffalo is in trouble, and that meands Erie county (ie the library system) has to cut back. Just like fast food chains are different, the same applies for Buffalo and Erie County.

[Grumpy]

i'd also like to see the bios on some of the people posting here. after reading this entire thread it appears that most of the registered users are uneducated and can't grasp the basics of simple economics and arithmetic (we're not talking higher math here folks).

a new library in south buffalo is definitely a waste of time and money. but i do think one of the south buffalo libraries should be closed and the staff terminated.

i keep reading about how the two south buffalo libraries are in the top 5 in circulation. what are the numbers? if the top library has 15 books checked out per week and the last place library 1 book per week, then i guess they should all be closed. if you can't quantify the circulation numbers then don't bring it up, it is irrelevant.

the city is in deep financial trouble with the county soon to follow. a lot of services will be cut back or eliminated completely. if south buffalo residents (and residents in other areas with two or more libraries) have to travel a little farther than so be it. life's tough, get over it.

[Allyssa]

the city is in deep financial trouble with the county soon to follow

Yes, grumpy... this we know, that is why some of the resident are trying to stop the county from spending $4 million on ONE new facility. That's probably tabacco settlement money that the politicians can spend on so many other things Erie County needs... not just in South Buffalo.

It's the politicians pushing this on the residents.


The Dudley branch circulation is at 80,910 and Caz at 79,676.. compared to Fronczak which is at 41,080 and Riverside at 63,410. (just a few examples)

According to the B&ECPL 2003 general revenue, 67% comes from county property taxes, that's about $24, 067,481 from Erie County Taxpayers...which leaves me to believe that Buffalo's financial troubles are not a result of the libraries, because the Libraries aren't taking anything away from the city.

And the grasping if basics of simple economics and arithmetic narrows down to the fact that everyone in the entire Erie county would have to sells off their property to the city of Buffalo in order for the Library system to have contributing financial dificulties with Buffalo.

[buffalofamily]

Yes Allissa,

Great points! The Caz and Dudley are (EACH) in the top 4 in circulation. The library patrons in South Buffalo support their branch libraries, by visiting the library often and paying their taxes!

The message again:

DON"T WASTE MILLIONS OF TAXPAYERS MONEY!

SAVE OUR LIBRARIES

Buffalofamily

[Curmudgeon]

Grumpy!
Thank god - there is a voice of reason out there. well said. someone who doesn't repeat slogans like "SAVE OUR LIBRARIES". I always found sloganeers to be so curious.. As is repeating the same series of words at a high volume would have some profound effect on my ability to reason. Yes, cut one - that's what I said too. I'd like to see 7-8 libraries in the city total. Times are tight - that's the way it is.

[Curmudgeon]

"According to the B&ECPL 2003 general revenue, 67% comes from county property taxes, that's about $24, 067,481 from Erie County Taxpayers...which leaves me to believe that Buffalo's financial troubles are not a result of the libraries, because the Libraries aren't taking anything away from the city. "
??????
what about the other 33% - or 12 million? isn't that the cities portion of the bill? if you cut the number of libraries in half (including one of your 2), that would save the city 6 million alone every year!!!!!

"And the grasping if basics of simple economics and arithmetic narrows down to the fact that everyone in the entire Erie county would have to sells off their property to the city of Buffalo in order for the Library system to have contributing financial dificulties with Buffalo."
I'm going to file this completely nonsensical snippett under grumpy's "most of the registered users are uneducated and can't grasp the basics of simple economics and arithmetic" category...

[WNYresident]

Cur, your are right but the issues that should be cut first is duplication of administration, patronage etc...before you worry about libraries etc.

Not once have we heard from the mayor that he realizes his pay is out of line for the performance we are getting from him. This is for all of them, I'm not just singling out him.

Leaders must lead example. How do you blame other union people crying for thier raises when the "Leader" of buffalo is getting $127,000 plus the beni's.

Mr Buffalo Mayor,

Log on to the board and please give us the reason why you expect everyone else to tighten thier belt but not you?
Is there some silent rule where polticians do not discuss pay cuts of thier own salary? There must be seeing you NEVER see it happen.

[Allyssa]

"isn't that the cities (city's) portion of the bill?"

NOPE! the remainder comes from library fines and fees (paid by the patrons), a very small amount of state aid, erie county cap funds, perhaps the 1.6% from "other" might include a "potion" of the city's bill.

"if you cut the number of libraries in half, that would save the city 6 million alone every year!"

Please by all means... tell me where to find this information.

Moreover, will the property tax in Erie County be cut in half too??? Saving millions while the county collects the same (or increaded) amount in property taxes... hmm, I wonder.

I'll like to get the max from my money. Like going to Wegmans and having the manager tell someone that "you're going to pay for two bags of groceries... but you can only leave the store with one bag of food because Tops is in financial trouble". Is that fair game? not really, just sounds like political babble to me. Would you settle for less of a car when you're paying top dollar for it just because "that's the way it is"???

Let's be realistic! closing any of these libraries won't save or lose money in the city of Buffalo, yet the fundimental aspects of learning are at stake because most just play "follow the leader" with the politicians. If Joel says "let's all jump off the Peace Bridge, would you listen to reason or take the plunge just because he says so???

And "Times are tight - that's the way it is", prove to me that the City of Buffalo's finances have anything to do with the libraries.. point me in the direction as to where Buffalo will lose millions by keeping all of the branches open. I've been coming up with all kinds of proof... now it's your turn!!!!

[Grumpy]

<<NOPE! the remainder comes from library fines and fees (paid by the patrons), a very small amount of state aid, erie county cap funds, perhaps the 1.6% from "other" might include a "potion" of the city's bill. >>

Maybe I missed something here, but are you saying that most of the 12 million dollar difference between the county and other funding is coming from library fines and fees???? If that is the case, then someone needs to teach all those library-goers how to read a calendar.

So far I am impressed with your ability to get the numbers people are asking about. Without some solid facts an intelligent discussion is impossible.

[Allyssa]

I got a wonderful idea... maybe you can look up all of this information and see it all for yourself.


And BTW, I did note a few other items that are in the accounting, so I did NOT say that most of the 12 million dollar difference between the county and other funding is coming from library fines and fees.

"Without some solid facts an intelligent discussion is impossible"
What are your facts and figures?

It's enough to know that you're not giving me any reason to feel libraries are such a burden on society!

[Curmudgeon]

grump, she isn't good with numbers....

86% - county
6.2% - NYS
3.8% - FINES AND FEES.
plus other inconsequential items.. = 100%

12 million in fees? Hello. This is reality speaking...

http://www.buffalolib.org/aboutthelibrary/2003BECPLAdoptedBudgetSummaries.pdf

page 15 has the pie charts. read it yourself...

[Allyssa]

12 million in fees? Hello. This is reality speaking...
yes, reality... I didn't say 12 million, you did. go back to reading your own words.

and despite what you think about numbers, you're not good at finding any reason to help me to understand what a great burden the public libraries have on our society.

You're not "ADDing" anything up to prove the point on just how much the libraies take away from the city of Buffalo.

Find a link to a pie chart on that... how much the city pays for the libraries.

You're so against my protest in keeping them open, well now you're center stage... show me exactly why they should close!

[Grumpy]

<<I got a wonderful idea... maybe you can look up all of this information and see it all for yourself.>>

I was actually paying you a compliment :-) Every time someone has asked for numbers (myself included, such as circulation) you kindly went out and found them.

Thanks Curmudgeon for printing the link.

<<"Without some solid facts an intelligent discussion is impossible"
What are your facts and figures?>>

Again, I was paying you a compliment. We can't have an intelligent discussion without relevant data. By providing the numbers for everyone in this forum you enrich the discussion.

Now, looking at the pie chart Curmudgeon referenced.... almost $1.4 Million in fines and fees? Other than overdue fees, what else does the library charge for?

[Allyssa]

Grumpy,

while you have the library site link, you could also look up the library's bylaws and policites.. as well as their guidelines for building a new facility... nowhere at all will you find anything that says the politicians have a say in "what goes where".

Giambra, Schroeder and Martino have opened this window of deception on the residents of South Buffalo. And now the poeple who are not blinded by the deception become the "bad guys" throwing a monkey wrench into their "operations". In place of actually listening, many will agrue on to defend the politicians; whom of which said "...Or whatever it takes"

So far I am impressed with your ability to get the numbers people are asking about.

I am sorry for missing that. However, some of my last post wasn't entirely directed to you per-say. But I do thank you for the compliment.

[sbGUY27]

24 million dollars on payroll ? Clothing supplies?

2.5 million dollars in payroll for buffalo branches. how much does a librarian make a year for just babysitting books.

5 million in fringe bene's. What kind of fringe should a librarian get ?

Where do I sign up ?

[Allyssa]

yep, that sounds about right for the payroll... but it doesn't come from the city of Buffalo; largely in part from Erie county property taxpayers.

[WNYresident]

how many people work for the system that ther'es 24 mill in payroll?

taht could be like 480 people at $50,000 a year... or 600 at $40,000 or 800 at $30,000

how many libraries are there? how many employees per library?

I haven't looked but do they show many $100,000a year libraries workers? just curious.

[sbGUY27]

WNY you should look it is rediculous. There are things that paid for that you wouldn't think of. It kind of looks like some are getting cars. Curmudgeon has a link posted.

[WNYresident]

great now i'm going to read the link and just aggravate myself.

why would they have cars? if it's snowing out there isn't a emergency they have to get to.

[sbGUY27]

I think I may have read it wrong. But there is alot of money under the misc (other expences) line.

[Curmudgeon]

close half of them and that pie WILL get smaller - get rid of more than half the staff, too. I don't care if it comes out of erie county, buffalo, or a school district assessment. Ultimatly, it comes ouf the taxpyer, and that is me.
Ben franklin created the public library to boost literacy in an age when books were expensive and not nearly as available as they are now. Nowadays, the cost of information is essentially free, as you can see when you are staring at your monitor. Schools have libraries for the kids. Stop demanding your entitlement and its accompaning blaoted beauracracy at my expense!! pay for your own stuff like I do!!!

[Allyssa]

Yes Crum, the First Free Public Library in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania was created for that reason and more; so that everyone had opportunity to access free information... thus it becoming the people's library. And still today, the building stands as one of the most visited landmarks in the country.

The same should be true of the neighborhood residents, having the mind-set of preserving the renouned notion of "public Libraries" in their own communities. It almost seems that anyone who is in favor of closing libraries holds no respect for Ben Franklin's idealism for free public access.

And yes, free information today is as easy as dialing up the internet to find endless elements of free information. Yet, can you see a sense of historical value here? you must, other wise you'd have suggested tearing down one of the oldest buildings in America. Why are these less aged buildings any different???

They can slice the pie into four section, but that won't change how much is paid in Erie County property taxes, that is why I am so insistent on keeping as many branches open as possible, it's my money too... so why should I have less?

You said: "pay for your own stuff like I do" Well, I pay for the libraries just as much as everyone else. and also "Stop demanding your entitlement and its accompaning blaoted beauracracy at my expense"... the only thing I'm trying to stop is $4 million dollars on something that isn't needed. If anything, the blaoted beauracracy is coming from your support of the waistful spending from the politicians that are so insistent on building a $4 million facility that isn't needed.

If 6 are closed, where will all of the extra money go? Chances are, the staff will get raises as a result, and the margin of Buffalo's financies will be no different than what it is now, so why fight to have less?

http://www.buffalolib.org/aboutthelibrary/index.asp
This is the link where the bylaws and policies can be found. Some of which are being contradicted by the politicians. $4 million of (possible) tabacco settlement money that the political officials are pushing on the residents in just one community; for something that isn't needed in this neighborhood.

Some things might not be needed by you per-say, but what about everyone else? Can you honestly say that you won't think of anybody else but yourself and the things you don't need? Those funds can surely be used for many other things Erie County and Buffalo really needs and not a $4 million building in one neighborhood.

http://www.buffalolib.org/aboutthelibrary/index.asp
This is the link where the guidelines can be found on Building a new Library. It's all the B&ECPL's own policies that they (library officials and politicians) are ignoring.

Think about it for at least a second...
$4 million in one neighborhood vs. $4 million used throughout Erie County.

Which do you choose???

[WNYresident]

Hey i saw a link to the library budget...

How many libraries does this budget support over all? We can figure an average of cost per library and then base the $4,000,000 against the savings for payback.

We'll set a reasonable time for what we would be considered a fair return on the investment and see where it goes.

I have a better IDEA for the $4,000,000. But the developers who were going to take thier profit for building the library won't let it happen.

Just put the $4,000,000 away and collect 3 or 4% interest on it. Lets say it earns us $150,000 a year in interest. The polityicians pushing this want to spend it anyways so we'll just bank it.

Will the savings with one library versus 2 be more than $150,000 a year we could earn in interest. Why wait 50 or more years to see a savings when we can see an imediate one and NOT spend $4,000,000.

They should of taken the tobacco money which was a windfall and just banked it and used the interest. They have nothing to show for the money as it is. Or am i wrong? Exactly how much did they get? What type of interest per year could it have generated in a savings account. Something completely safe.

[Allyssa]

WNYresident,

that's a good est. of what the B&ECPL and politicians should do, unfortunatly they'd never go for something like that... they'd much rather convince the public the old fashioned way.. by lying. They won't ever show their actual numbers, because then the residents will know how much more the new library will cost the taxpaying public.

Giambra's "top-down" approach is more about making himself look good than what the people think. He hasn't attended any of the public meetings... that just proves how much he is committed to the people.

[Allyssa]

Wow, talk about a contradition!!!
I found it here in black and white...

"SCHROEDER APPROVES LIBRARY PROTECTION ACT"
http://www.erie.gov/legislature/district02_news021303.asp

Mark Schroeder's quote:
"Our libraries serve as a useful resource to free information for residents of all ages to enjoy"

If he means what he says, then why can't the residents enjoy the library in their own neighborhood?

And Is he going to use these allocated funds (set aside for all library branches throughout Erie County) to push for the construction of one new Library facility in South Buffalo?

[WNYresident]

THe politicians pushing the new library as it looks is more worried about handing our money over to a developers than the health of the community.


It's just numbers when it comes to spending money. It's scary when it looks like they can't even track thier own numbers more or less trying to focus on building a solid WNY.

[Curmudgeon]

"If 6 are closed, where will all of the extra money go? Chances are, the staff will get raises as a result, and the margin of Buffalo's financies will be no different than what it is now, so why fight to have less? "

you have to be kidding me... then we should never downsize anything?
The money will go to me, in the form of REDUCED TAXES.

"This is the link where the bylaws and policies can be found. Some of which are being contradicted by the politicians. "

I don't give a rat's ass about any beauracracies "bylaws and policies ". The library system works for the county executive. period. They are subserviant to the county. their bylaws can include free cars for all the employees, for all i care. It doesn't mean it's the law.

"They can slice the pie into four section, but that won't change how much is paid in Erie County property taxes, that is why I am so insistent on keeping as many branches open as possible, it's my money too... so why should I have less? "

I get the feeling that I pay substantially more than you, so it's really my money you're spending. You are quite adept at spending other people's money.

[Curmudgeon]

I've just had a brilliant idea that I'd like to share with you all....

There seems to be a surplus of "tax and spend and consume" people in buffalo and on this board.

We should have a "excessive public service consumer exportation" program - here's how it will work:

You have to apply and you will be approved based on the following criteria:
* You are a chronic welfare, unemployment recipient.
* You have no marketable skills and are over 35
* You are a public sector employee who is about to be "downsized"
* You are active in political organizations that advocate excessive public spending (public employee unions, "library" people).
* Convicted felon

Upon approval, you agree to receive a lump sum payment, like $10,000 or so. In return, you agree to leave the state of New York and not reside in New York for at least 5 years.

Then you can go somewhere else and demand they don't close libraries in an area that is better able to support so many "public service gluttons".

The up front cost will be returned by not having to pay for beauracracies that tend to the mass of public service gluttons that we have now. The concentration of these folks is killing us.

I think it's Brilliant!!!

[Allyssa]

If you don't "give a rat's -BLEEP-" then why do you keep coming back to this thread?

Yes, It's a free country and am not one to violate your first amendment right, so don't throw back that I said you couldn't speak your mind,

... but if this (the library thing) is something you don't care about then why aggervate yourself by barking up a tree with no cat?

[Curmudgeon]

-the above 3 sentences make absolutely no sense to me whatsoever...

I am unable to respond. please clarify....

[Allyssa]

please clearify...? what, that you're at a loss of words and unable to respond?

[Curmudgeon]

well, since you asked...

your last post had the ramblings of a schizophrenic who had fallen off his medication... Freedom of speech? huh?

"... but if this (the library thing) is something you don't care about then why aggervate yourself by barking up a tree with no cat?"

What?

I care about people spending my money - but you already know that...

I think you would make an EXCELLENT candidate for my "public service consumer relocation" program!!
What say you? How 'bout $10,000 to move to Gary, Indiana or Youngstown, Ohio? sounds like a great deal, doesn't it? They have LOTS of libraries and other free stuff, too!

[WNYresident]

I believe we are getting unfocus here people :)

who would like to rip apart the budget from the library and show either that the $4,000,000 is good investment or not. If not then it's just a ploy to give the building of a new library to one of the political friends to profit on building it.

[Allyssa]

Dear Curm,

In fairness to all of the members here, the child’s play between us has become the opposite of what “Speakup WNY” is all about. This tennis match of back and forth can continue for as long as we keep it going and as a result, we’ll just be looped right back to the start of our differences… Gaining no further ground from the beginning.

My opinions posted on this board, in your thinking are no different than yours are to me, and that’s all in fine, however the concept of “is not, are too” has gone long enough.

It isn’t a matter of who started, who’s to blame, who keeps it going or who’s going to back down first. I don’t think this is what “Speakup WNY” wants things to be like amongst it’s members when there are so many other issues throughout Western New York and that should be what we speak-up about.

I propose, a fairness of objectivity for “Speakup WNY” without the personal comments in this or any other thread on the boards from both sides. Any posts from you and I will be declared in a non-direct manner towards one another; or to another about each. And with non-direct messages posted from either one of us, there won’t be negative replies and the thread can continue the way it was set up to.

Basically, we may sail different streams, but we’re both in the same boat with the privileges to ride along that “Speakup WNY” has given us. I am agreeable to be a bit more ladylike towards you, if you are willing to be less of a 'curmudgeon' towards me.

Sincerely,
Allyssa

[buffalofamily]

NOW THEY ARE PLANNING AN ABBOTT ROAD LIBRARY. AGAIN - NO IMPUT FROM THE PUBLIC IS GIVEN CONSIDERATION.

ABBOTT ROAD GETS EVERYTHING, While Seneca and South Park are turning into slums.

SAVING THE TWO EXISTING LIBRARIES WILL HELP KEEP THE TWO AREAS INTACT. CLOSING THEM WILL HURT SENECA AND SOUTH PARK NEIGHBORHOODS.

BF

[buffalofamily]

A large group of South Buffalo residents attended the BECPL board meeting on Thursday August 21, 2003. They blasted the library board for their actions. Still no answers as to how this will save money.

They are $500,000.00 short for the Jefferson ave. project and are starting to target ALL WNY libraries.

Could your library be the next to go???

BF

[Curmudgeon]

"Could your library be the next to go??? "

dont know, don't care....

Times are tough - lose 1/2 the libraries and get rid of 1/2 the employees. If you can't choose which ones to close, put all of them in a hat and draw 1/2 of them at random. There are too many libraries (and everything else). Time to start tightening the belt. Time to start ignoring the special interests that are destroying WNY.

[WNYresident]

CUrm you are right to a point but:

THere are other places we can cut politicians from and keep the libraries. I would rather keep what we have and lets say "STOP" giving the buffalo bills any money period as an example.

Stop pay raises across the board for all administration and some civil service employees. All it does is add to the cost of living for everyone here. If you can't live on what your getting paid then move, we have other able bodies that will fill your spot.

Stop most welfare. Yoy only get help if you are extremely old, crippled, or under 18. Thats it. Otherwise you learn how to survive in other parts of the USA or better yet leave the states. I heard they pay like $1.00 an hour in mexico :)

Or,

You collect any welfare or assistance at all you must work for the residents. If it means you mow lawns, you sweep streets, you pick up garbage, what ever you do it and if some liberal group says anything that it's demeaning, we need to tar and feather a few as example.

When did the land of oppurtunity turn into the land of guarantees? Oh! i know when, when politicians realized they could guarantee votes by giving OUR money away :)

As for the libraries i would say keep what we got for now, NO new ones. Only way a new library is started or what ever is with real money figures on paper. NONE of this we have a plan crap without some plan written down. Hey Joel or Tony, are you reading this? You are both in positions of power and your not doing anything with it.

[buffalofamily]

Library proposal "offer" is being proposed for the East Side of Buffalo.


North Buffalo said NO!

Aurora said NO!

Tonawanda said NO!

South Buffalo is saying NO! , but being ignored!

Marilla just said NO!


A Majority of South Buffalo Residents HAVE already, and are still opposed this plan, BUT are STILL BEING IGNORED by the Library Board and elected Officials! REMEMBER THAT NO PUBLIC MEETINGS WERE HELD IN THE DUDLEY BRANCH SOUTH PARK AVE. NEIGHBORHOOD. All the 3 meetings took place at or near the Cazenovia Branch.

Will your taxes go down if they close our Dudley and Cazenovia Branch Neighborhood Libraries? How will our children of South Buffalo walk to a Library that is out of their reach? If we are broke, how can we afford $4,000,000 as Deputy County Executive Carl Calabrese promised us in public (now only $2.5 million) capped by Joel Giambra. FIX OUR SUCCESSFUL CAZENOVIA AND DUDLEY BRANCH NEIGHBORHOOD BRANCHES!!! Save Million$ of OUR Tax Dollars!


South Buffalo deserves the two existing locations that serve all the needs of our community. We have paid taxes for them for generations! It’s OUR TAX MONEY. We are mad as heck, and we’re not taking it anymore!!!

North Buffalo said NO!

Aurora said NO!

Tonawanda said NO!

South Buffalo is saying NO! , but being ignored!

Marilla just said NO!

BF

[sbGUY27]

"How will our children of South Buffalo walk to a Library that is out of their reach? "

Yes Buff how do the first ward children walk to the libraries ?
Or the kids in the Valley ? How about Babacock ? Kaisertown don't forget them. Pretty far walk. All of these areas are considered South Buffalo. Don't they deserve a central library. If you tell me put up a library within walking distance,this thread will become more about your crusade and less about children and tax savings. Because you would have to put up 2. At least. I think that would eat up your 4 million.

[Allyssa]

sbguy,
the $4 million is Erie County money that the politicians are willing to spend!!! the crusade is to reinvest in the pre-existing branches and not close any so that all children have equal and free access to public libraries.

And of that $4 million, they (the county) can easily set aside a million to pop up a new brach in the Valley or First Ward and still keep Caz and Dudley open. Kaisertown has the East Clinton branch, which is possible in question now because the B&ECPL and politicians are looking to consolidate towards the east side too.

the $4 million is what Erie County is using to down-size society in Buffalo nieghborhoods at the expense of "saving money". And I will remind everyone... they haven't given any explanation whatsoever as to how... when... where... and who is saving anything.

[Curmudgeon]

...and she wants to build MORE libraries????

hire MORE people?
maintain MORE buildings?

she just can't stop spending other peoples money. let's offer her $10,000 to move out of the state and not come back. It might be the wisest investment a taxpayer could make...

[WNYresident]

curm what are you talking about? Alyssa doesn't want to spend more money.

THey want to spend $4,000,000 to save basiaclly nothing. THey won't lay anyone off so you still have that expense plus they are talking about making one of the old libraries into a museum or something on that order so your not saving utilities.

There are no savings. If they saved the cost of utilities it's minimal compared to the $4,000,000 they want to spend. PLUS even if they float a bond to cover the money it's STILL BORROWING money taht needs to be paid back. I think you missing the point.

It's like would you spend $10,000 on your home furnace to save $20 in gas per month. I wouldn't.

[Allyssa]

Alyssa doesn't want to spend more money

Thank you WNYresident.

I don't want to see the spending of millions of dollars be compared to the "savings" of very little just because the politicians need a good photo-op!!!!

let's offer her $10,000 to move out of the state and not come back.

Is that what it took for you to leave WNY???

[Curmudgeon]

curm what are you talking about? Alyssa doesn't want to spend more money.

And of that $4 million, they (the county) can easily set aside a million to pop up a new brach in the Valley or First Ward and still keep Caz and Dudley open.

sure sounds like she wants to open up new libraries (and spend more money) to me...

[WNYresident]

nope i think she acutally doens't want that.

[Allyssa]

Oh My Goodness ... it's dajavoo .... again.

I never, never said I'm looking to spend any money on any new library.

I am NOT in favor of a consolidation plan that will allow the politicians to spend $4 million, or even $2.5 million on ONE new branch in one area of the city.

The B&ECPL has a revenue which allows them money to reinvest back into the library branches. The question is, why can't the politicians do what they can to invest (the money they have burning a whole in their pocket) into all of the existing branches? and as well set aside.... from the the $4 million that the politicians have to construct in a neighborhood without a library.

[buffalofamily]

FINALLY,

A Ch. 2 report stated that the BECPL said that the operating cost oc Caz and Dudley combined is $500,000 a year.

No breakdown of specific costs.

No ststement on how much a new library consolidated would cost per year to operate.

I don't think it would be half, due to the fact that they promised no cuts in staff. they also promised more hours, books, computers, technology...

Stay Tuned,

BF

[buffalofamily]

Remember the city would have to purchase land and demolish existing businesses and residental property if Abbott Rd. is the location.

Add that to the picture and it starts costing the City residents more to do it. The Giambra proposal only gives the money for construction. If it's bonds it's not a gift to South Buffalo or any other neighborhood or town.

We the taxpayers will pay for this. BIG TIME in the form of TAXES !

Why should we pay for construction projects that are not needed?

Who profits?

BF

[sbGUY27]

I heard the new location was going to be on seneca street. Just what I heard from Martino haters on my parents street.

[Allyssa]

The residents from the South Park area will be S.O.L. if Seneca Street is the intended site. Sure, Seneca Street has quite a few visiable lots for a new library... but shutting out the S Park neighborhood isn't what we want; and vise-sersa for the seneca section.

That's why so many people are saying this is "a bad deal for South Buffalo" but the political pull keeps pushing it.

[buffalofamily]

The BEPCL policy states:

"The Board cannot approve any proposed project that might enhance the quality of library service in one area at the expense of service in another."

Here it's at the expense of two areas.

Wake up people!

Buffalofamily

[buffalofamily]

From Ward:

Dan Ward position on libraries:

"I want to bring back jobs, reform our government, and revive our Queen City. Our area has been malingering in mediocrity for too long, and many of our fellow citizens have become discouraged by the same tired politics and quick fixes."

"I stand with you in your opposition to closing down libraries in South Buffalo and support your petition drive. Joel Giambra has the wrong approach to regionalism. His "top-down" method overlooks many important services in neighborhoods and his style neglects the valid concerns of the community. Closing down libraries is the wrong way to go. In my many years of public service, I have always listened and given voice to neighborhood issues."

[sbGUY27]

Don't get your hopes up with this guy. Sounds like another wny sound bite politician.

[buffalofamily]

Let's remind ourselves: The libraries belong to the PEOPLE, not the politicians, so the politicians should speak for us.

BF

[sbGUY27]

What I meant by sound bite is that everything coming out will sound good but end up sour.Jim pitts is a good example of a sound bite politician.

[buffalofamily]

Speaking of sound bites, that's what they are doing to pitch these new library proposals.

They claim "newer", "bigger", "better", "technology", but with nothing to back it up. It all sounds good, but still no proof that it saves us a penny, gives better service or won't cut access.

Let's consolidate politicians, not libraries!

BF

[Allyssa]

Let's consolidate politicians, not libraries!

That's a good one Buff Fam.
I think you might be on to something here :)

Let's see how the Giambras of WNY like knowing they're going to have to share everything with another county, including their paychecks!!!! Let's see Giambra traveling by foot almost three miles out of the way to get to his consolidated office year round. Let's see him get a promise of one thing and then decrease it as they've done with the $4 million that was proposed for the new South Buffalo library.

It may be a long-shot, but in doing things this way... Giambra gets a taste of his own medicine. Perhaps consolidating the politicians will in some way let him know what's it's like to for us peanuts to fight for something we believe in!

[Curmudgeon]

Perhaps consolidating the politicians will in some way ...

That is already occuring. There will now be 4 less Buffalo common council members. A good start for sure. Now perhaps we can get rid of all the villiages and their board members and all the various streets departments supervisors and their staff, etc, etc, etc... There are WAY TOO MANY people doing the same job redundantly here. And that is why your taxes are the highest in the nation. Now if we could only gid rid of half the libraries.......

[buffalofamily]

CHUM says:

Now if we could only gid rid of half the libraries.......

I SAY--lets open more libraries. They aren't a burden on our county budget. It's one of the institutions we CAN afford to expand, rather than consolidate.

Remember this proposed consolidation is going to cost MILLIONS of $$$'s due to the construction plans for Giambra's boyz.

BF

[Curmudgeon]

They aren't a burden on our county budget.

what???????

I have an idea: lets open 5 NEW LIBRARIES and let YOU pay for all the the cost of operating the new libraries.

Let's see if it is a burden on your budget.

It's always easier spending someone elses money, isn't it?

[Allyssa]

I have an idea: lets open 5 NEW LIBRARIES and let YOU pay for all the the cost of operating the new libraries.

what???????

How silly is that? Honestly, a fundimental county service that you believe has to be completely funded by a single person?? The people are already paying/funding enough for the libraries through property taxes.

It's always easier spending someone elses money, isn't it? Perhaps you missed the post that said it's the politicians came to us with the money for this project. How they got the money, I have no idea... but they, the GIAMBRA administration HAS the MONEY that THEY are LOOKING to SPEND... not us! We did not ask for a new library, THEY are FORCING it on the RESIDENTS.

[buffalofamily]

Chumnm says:

what???????

Yes, libraries are NOT a burden on our county budget. In fact people would be willing to pay more for more libraries.

Library finding in 2000: TAXES

Most who attended (22 community meetings) expressed a willingness to pay more for library services.

also

NEW CONSTRUCTION QUESTIONS
Concerns were raised about the source of funding for new library construction and the ownership and location of new buildings. A critical issue is the fate of empty structures should new libraries be built since every vacant building contributes to neighborhood blight.

CHUM--Don't you get it. Construction would cost us more taxes. Empty buildings would be another burden to Us taxpayers.

Chum says to me:

I have an idea: lets open 5 NEW LIBRARIES and let YOU pay for all the the cost of operating the new libraries.

I am against construction of new libraries. The libraries we have now are fine. If we can afford construction like Joel Giambra wants, we can afford more locations to serve us better.

MORE LIBRARY FINDINGS

"DON’T CLOSE MY LIBRARY!"
This theme was repeated at every meeting.

QUALITY OF LIFE
Most attendees are already upset about the loss of a post office, police station, bank or supermarket and consider the loss of a library further erosion of the vitality of their community.

ACCESS
People want convenience and the option of walking to the library if they choose.

BF

[sbGUY27]

you miss the point that these are 22 people that give a damn.

I don't and will hunt you out kick the snot out of you if you raise my taxes so you don't have to spend money on books.

There are roughly 25,000 people living in the south district and you think that 22 people can speak for everyone? Get off your high horse already. 22 people of 25000 is 0.10%. More taxes not my voice. Buy the book already.

[buffalofamily]

SB SAYS:

you miss the point that these are 22 people that give a damn.

Nope it's the over 2000+ people who attended 22 public hearings.


SB States:

I don't and will hunt you out kick the snot out of you if you raise my taxes so you don't have to spend money on books.

What?

BF

[sbGUY27]

2000 is still less than 10% and nowhere near a majority. an if you take 100 people and multilpy by 22 then you get 100 people crying 22 times about a library and still don't come close to a majority and look more like curm's special intrest accusation.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't and will hunt you out kick the snot out of you if you raise my taxes so you don't have to spend money on books.

You should go see a specialist who will address your lack of assertiveness when it comes to expressing your opinion. :D


People want convenience and the option of walking to the library if they choose.
I want the convenience and option of somebody washing my car for me if I choose. And, I want you to pay for it.


More taxes not my voice. Buy the book already.
Word.



QUALITY OF LIFE
Most attendees are already upset about the loss of a post office, police station, bank or supermarket and consider the loss of a library further erosion of the vitality of their community.
This crap is closing because EVERYONE IS MOVING AWAY BECAUSE OF THE TAXES!!!!!

Geez! You'd try to save a man from drowning by throwing him a bowling ball!

[Allyssa]

Geez! You'd try to save a man from drowning by throwing him a bowling ball!Huh?

As if the anchor of $2.5 million doesn't weigh someone down.

[Allyssa]

That is already occuring. There will now be 4 less Buffalo common council members. A good start for sure. Now perhaps we can get rid of all the villiages and their board members and all the various streets departments supervisors and their staff, etc, etc, etc... With what you said here, I'm really starting to wonder about you Crum, are you one for a "regionalized" Western New York?

I have heard some talk on the issue of combining all of Erie County's towns, villages, cities, and ect. into a hub county to take the place of seperate governing municipalities.

[sbGUY27]

Combining all the towns into one would be a great benefit in our state and Federal congresses. In the state legislature Sheldon Silver would no longer be able to grab the money and run to manhattan because we would be the most populous and therefor have more say in matters. More congressmen and women in Congress lobbying for the whole of Erie countynot just Buffalo or Amherst. Erie county becoming in effect one large city would reduce cost to everyone and gain in representation where it counts.

[Allyssa]

That's a well-stated theory, one of the best I've heard presented so far.

Crum,
What's your take on it?

[Curmudgeon]

All I care about is reducing taxation and duplication and making WNY economically competitive. Once this occurs, all the other problems will take care of themselves.

Then, perhaps the need to get public money funnelled here won't be as important and politicians won't be the power brokers they are now. The WNY economy has a much higher percentage of public money fueling it than other areas and that is not good. It's a welfare economy, plain and simple.

[Allyssa]

That's all easier said than done.
All I care about is reducing taxation and duplication and making WNY economically competitive. Once this occurs, all the other problems will take care of themselves.
Does it mean 'everything' must go with this theory?
Should economics be the only thing that matters to a city?
What about services to and for the people?

Are you saying illiminating things like library services that people (young and old) will suddenly gain knowledge and resources?

And people in need of county benifits will no longer have a worry once it's gone?

Where do you think the money will come from to make "WNY economically competitive"?

If it's costing the city millions of dollars to bring in a control board to tell us how to spend money...
What's it going to cost the taxpayers for these changes to be reality in Buffalo?

[WNYresident]

I think before we close a library we need to trim all political fat first including salaries and benifits...

THen we work down from there to the public services. But take heed public servants, you can all be replaced.

[buffalofamily]

The proposed hub library would be smaller (Only 12,000 vs. 16,000sq.ft. for 2) Clarence library is 17,000sq.ft. for 20,000 people; South Buffalo will only get 12,000sq.ft. for over 40,000 people. Q. Fair deal? A. NO.

Hub: only one hour per week more of service (55 vs. 54 hrs.,7days/per week currently).

Hub: half the access: 1 site vs. 2 current sites with 2 meeting rooms, 2 sets references…

Hub: 1 less meeting room. Cazenovia has the largest meeting space in all 15 Buffalo libraries - 1250sq. ft. Cazenovia’s can be divided into 2 spaces, and Dudley’s meeting room can seat 50.
Hub would cost more taxes and provide less service: BECPL would have to pay $1000’s for stocking and furnishing; Buffalo would have to pay at least 100’s of $1000’s for land acquisition, demolition, and clearing; Erie county would have to pay $millions ($2.5-4million) for construction.

Newer is not necessarily better: 1996 Reinstein library is replacing their roof after 7 years.

Cazenovia & Dudley have the same technology as all county libraries now. Any gain is countywide.

No money has been allocated by Erie County, Buffalo, or BECPL for construction, architects, land acquisition, demolition, clearing, stocking, or furnishing this hub.

Save our Libraries

The majority on record opposes library closing/consolidation: Over 2,950+ people have signed petitions opposing closings, most from South Buffalo.

No locality wants this deal: It has been rejected by Tonawanda, N. Buffalo, W. Falls, Marilla, Collins, N. Collins, Clarence, etc… BECPL did not approve it, since it was rejected in 2000 by all of Erie County, including Mrs. Martino and Mr. Schroeder.

Suburban libraries are not all newer and better: 75% were built in the 1970’s or before.

Cazenovia & Dudley are well-used - 2 successful libraries in the top 4 of Buffalo book circulation.

Cazenovia & Dudley are needed where they stand: 40% of Buffalo’s adults, and uncounted children, have no access to a car and must walk to these neighborhood libraries. Both are surrounded by homes and businesses, next to parks, on major bus routes, near many schools, daycares, senior housing and services. They are a major asset in our safe livable and walkable neighborhoods.

Dudley has handicapped access, and we’re told Cazenovia was promised access, estimated to cost $40,000-80,000, by officials in 2000. Tell them you want them to keep their promises.

BF
:)

[buffalofamily]

The B&EPCL director threw out a figure on 11/14/03 at a west side community meeting.

When asked how much would be saved by closing the two libraries in South Buffalo, he said we would save $100,000. a year in operating costs.

Well, that isn't going to save the taxpayer a penny for 25 to 30 years or maybe never. If you figure $2.5 million + purchase of 1.2 acres of land in South Buffalo + furnishing and stocking the new consolidated location, we could see a final price tag of well over $3,000,000. to save only $100,000. a year and get half the service we have today. YUK! Can we all say LOUSEY DEAL!!!

BF

[buffalofamily]

The Buffalo Common Council Just passed a version of this resolution on December 9, 2003.

Here is a draft: I'll post the final resolution when it is available to me.

Draft Resolution for a Moratorium on consolidation of Public Libraries in Buffalo

Whereas, Buffalo branches have been disproportionately targeted for
consolidation in the past, losing one fourth of their branches (5)
since
1963 to total 15 in 2003;

Whereas, 11 out of 15 Buffalo libraries were targeted for consolidation
in
2000;

Whereas, North Buffalo branches were targeted for consolidation in 2002;

Whereas, South Buffalo branches are currently being targeted in 2002-3;

Whereas, the library branches of Buffalo’s East side are being proposed as the next target of library consolidation;

Whereas, by these actions we can assume that Buffalo’s libraries are being disproportionately targeted for consolidation in the past, currently, and therefore, in the future;

Whereas, Buffalo & Erie County Public Library (BECPL) Board began as a Buffalo Library Board, funded and administered by the city of Buffalo; which nurtured libraries outside of Buffalo by giving them the advantages of being
part of the larger, more established Buffalo system, through legal
contracts with that system;

Whereas, in 1953, the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library system began as a county entity, and in 2003, has grown to 52 library units with 24 boards of trustees, encompassing 36 contracting branches with 22 contracting boards outside of Buffalo and 15 branches in Buffalo with no board and no
contract;

Whereas, the legal and binding contracts, held by the 36 contracting libraries outside of Buffalo have the advantage of having their own boards, picked by their own communities, having their own funding from the county
which they decide how to spend, they pick their own staff and
administration so that, that staff will be attuned to the needs of their particular communities;

Whereas, the Association of Contracting Trustees (ACT) further
represents these 36 libraries outside of Buffalo, while Buffalo libraries have no such representation;

Whereas, the 15 Buffalo libraries are the only branches in the BECPL system without a representative board, a legal and binding contract, the rights and funding to do as they see fit provided by such a contract, or representation in ACT, and are therefore underrepresented in the BECPL system;

Whereas, Buffalo has, in its one city, one-third of the Erie County
population concentrated within 40 square miles of densely urban
landscape, while it takes 22 towns to make up the other two-thirds;

Whereas, according to Greater Buffalo Niagara Regional Transportation Council, forty percent of Buffalo’s adults have no access to cars, and many more uncounted children have not access to transportation, and therefore, these populations must walk to neighborhood libraries in order to receive library service;

Whereas, lack of core services, like neighborhood libraries, helps
cause the dismantling of livable, walkable, safe neighborhoods, degrades services to children, seniors, and job seekers, degrades community values, contributes to crime, blight, and hopelessness;

Whereas, Buffalo libraries are strategically placed to deliver the best service to its citizens - on major bus routes, surrounded by many schools, businesses and homes;

Whereas, targeted Buffalo libraries are successful where they stand, and as an example, the South Buffalo libraries have both been, for years, in the top four of book circulation for the city;

Whereas, funding has been severely cut to Buffalo public schools, and students have even more need for their neighborhood library that they can walk to safely, to accomplish their homework assignments and projects;

Whereas, library consolidation would cost more in Buffalonians’ tax dollars, while delivering less service;

Whereas, Buffalo would have to spend more money for acquiring land, demolition and clearing for one replacement library than for
maintaining two existing buildings;

Whereas, this land acquisition, demolition and clearing will remove businesses and/or homes from tax rolls, and therefore, go against city revitalization efforts;

Whereas, Buffalo would still be responsible for the maintenance of the two current buildings, as well as the replacement building, depending on the terms agreed upon by city and county;

Whereas, BECPL’s own Guidelines for New Library Construction assert, "The board cannot approve of any proposed project that might enhance the quality of library services in one area at the expense of another.", and this rule is clearly broken by the closing of two or more branches in two separate neighborhoods to open only one for one neighborhood;

Whereas, BECPL’s own $38,000 survey by Insight & Associates concluded that, " A bigger, brighter, more technically excellent facility a mile away is little use to a student doing homework everyday close to home."

Whereas, the proposed consolidation plan is, instead, clearly a
downgrade in services, with the replacement facility being smaller than the current combined square footage, having one less meeting room, only one hour of service per week than currently, and the same technology as all BECPL branches;

Whereas, the proposed South Buffalo "hub" facility is to be 12,000 square feet for a population of over 40,000, while the new Clarence library has 17,000 square feet, for a population of 20,000;

Whereas, the $2.5 million is not sufficient to build a large enough
facility to serve the South Buffalo population of 40,000, since the 20,000 population Clarence library cost $3,400,000, and the 7,630 square foot Akron library, with a population of 7,440 cost $2,900,000;

Whereas, the Clarence library has over 71,000 volumes in its collection for a population of 20,000, while the two South Buffalo contain a total of 43,000 some volumes for a population of over 40,000;

Whereas, it is therefore clear that Buffalo libraries are already not
receiving equal services to some libraries outside the city of Buffalo;

Whereas, BECPL documents prove that, in 2000, after 22 hearings with thousands of participants, and after receiving 10,000 signatures opposing consolidation on petitions, BECPL decided against the plan to consolidate 22 BECPL libraries;

Whereas, since 2000, many communities have again rejected a piecemeal version of this consolidation plan, including North Buffalo, Tonawanda, West Falls, and Marilla;

Whereas, the majority of recorded comment opposes library
consolidation, as evidenced by over 2,500 signatures on petitions opposing library consolidation in 2003;

Therefore, be it resolved, that this body opposes the consolidation of any of the 15 Buffalo libraries which are part of the BECPL system;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body opposes closing of any of Buffalo’s 15 libraries, except when replacing one building with one new building with clearly enhanced services, as in the case of the new North Jefferson library to be built;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body officially opposes the closing/consolidation of any BECPL libraries, both Buffalo and outside of Buffalo, for the benefit of all Buffalo and Erie County citizens;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body will recommend that its members be involved in opposing the closing/consolidation of Buffalo’s Public libraries, including writing letters to authorities to support saving neighborhood libraries;

Therefore, be it further resolved, that this body agrees that a Buffalo Library Board should be created to reverse the inequity caused by the lack of Buffalo representation in BECPL.

BF

[buffalofamily]

Just to refresh the topic. Director Mahaney said in 2003 that closing 2 branches saves approx. $100,000. a year. Why spend $4,500,000.00 on Hub libraries. It would take 45 years to break even. They would close some branches that aren't half that age now.

Bad plan

BF

[Cgoodsp466]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
The Cazenovia and Dudley libraries have 23 computers combined, more than what is needed most of the time. We visit each library a few times a week and have never had to wait for computer time.

Will a new library have 24 or more computers? They are promising more computers. BTW - All new technology goes into all branches system wide. It makes no difference how old the building is. Caz was wired for all new technology not too long ago. I asked many supporters of the new library "What new technology are you promising that is not being offered now?", and get a blank look for an answer, or a quick change of subject.

Who is to blame for the reduction in the number of books in Dudley and Cazenovia??? The bookshelves have a lot of space to fill, so why the need for more space? BTW - The new proposed library is only 12,000 square feet. The Clarence library that keeps coming up in videos and fliers for the new library is not what they are proposing.

Buffalo IS building a new 20,000 square foot North Jefferson Library NOW, so South Buffalo doesn't need a bad deal that CLOSES 2 libraries to get one. Why not let the citizens of South Buffalo decide how to spend $4,000,000 on library services. We could probably fix up the two we have now and save about $3,850,000. This could be done by taking the politicians out of the picture.

These libraries have all the books, movies, magazines, computer and everything that my children need for their school projects including easy access.

Your neighbors - Buffalo family

You can buy a Dell for $295.00

[Cgoodsp466]

Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Well, we should help the region by lowering the unemployment rate.... Let's give EVERYONE who is jobless a government job! That will lower the unemployment rate for sure!!!!

No - what we want is to CUT jobs. The more, the better. That will lower the taxation rate which is driving private sector jobs out of the area.

"I got to say this: People are not the expendable Pawns in a chess game... employment is the survival in the game of REAL life!"
As if firing civil servants will cause their death?? No, they will find another job - they always do, like everyone else. Remove as many as possible. I'm sure that thinking is not popular in S. Buffalo, where just about everyone is employed by the public sector.

"BTW- go back to your own words... you said the city of Buffalo is bankrupt! If A municipality cannot "file for bankrupcy" then how can you say the city is bankrupt?"
the Control Board is the municipal equivalance of bankruptcy. The higher level of government takes over. 6 and a half-dozen are the same thing. Kind of like "laid-off" and "downsized" are the same thing. To not acknowledge that is an excercise in self-deception.

Crum I applaude you, I have always said those wo cant work for the goverment. Public employees are a huge voteing block that keeps the hard working private sector person in bondage. I am sick of paying taxes to take care of the public employee mindless twits. I go to Barnes and Nobels for my reading material.I just ordered three books from Amazon,and I use my private computer
to access a world of information. I make my own brakes,I am a proud member of the private sector.Close em all down fire em all
let God sort em out