Judge rules

[Save Us]

Looks like the decision to determine the size and character of their local government will be placed in the hands of the town citizens as a judged ruled in favor a referendum.

[WNYresident]

Looks like the decision to determine the size and character of their local government will be placed in the hands of the town citizens as a judged ruled in favor a referendum.

Isn't that how it should be?

[Save Us]

Isn't that how it should be?

of course,,

we have a machine here in WNY that is fighting for its very parasitic survival.

I can feel momemtum comming.

[WNYresident]

of course,,

we have a machine here in WNY that is fighting for its very parasitic survival.

I can feel momemtum comming.

Maybe I'll comment on the machine tonite on TV.....

Who can I make fun of? Lenny L? Orsini? I won't say free cheesers though... that's sort of childish. :)

[Save Us]

Maybe I'll comment on the machine tonite on TV.....

Who can I make fun of? Lenny L? Orsini? I won't say free cheesers though... that's sort of childish. :)


The problem that it is so ingrained into this area's psyche that it would be like trying to separate the sheep from the wolves in sheeps clothing.

I think as states necessarily turn on their populace to make up for government shortcommings your going to see more people get vocal as they get squeezed from both sides...

There were people that were kicked away from the lifeboats from the titanic.

as you know free cheeser is the vernacular insult that some folks apply to all elements of the system that are responsible for no economic growth and population loss. From the state legislature to party bosses to anybody that is collecting a check from either side of the government.

As far as making fun of,, or pointing a finger,, you pretty much have the entire establishment to choose from. They maintain a status quo at the expense of an entire region. Look how hard it was to get a referendum for popular vote to downsize the WS town council. Its like pulling teeth.

The psyche here is that the government is a means to an economy.....nothing could be further from the truth,, one poster from Amherst even said.. what would happen to the town employees if they belt tightened and spent less,,,,,and he was serious!

Good luck Res.

I'm glad I am not on,,, they wouldn't be able to shut me up!

[dtwarren]

Maybe I'll comment on the machine tonite on TV.....

Who can I make fun of? Lenny L? Orsini? I won't say free cheesers though... that's sort of childish. :)

The "machine" is not involved in this effort.

[dtwarren]

As of this time there is no enforceable court order. Although a couple proposals have been circulated the Judge has not signed one.

[Save Us]

The "machine" is not involved in this effort.

the machine is everywhere unfortunately

[Cgoodsp466]

The "machine" is not involved in this effort.


Everybody dont listen to DT he does not have a clue about the machine.After all how can we forget that Brillant statement.
And this controls a vote how?"{

[Spirit of Ebenezer]

I would like to hear from those who profess to know so much about "the machine" as to how it relates to West Seneca ? It is somewhat laughable to me, as to how this worn out catch-phrase is thrown around in this thread.

[Niagara]

I would like to hear from those who profess to know so much about "the machine" as to how it relates to West Seneca ? It is somewhat laughable to me, as to how this worn out catch-phrase is thrown around in this thread.
The problem is machines break down. When they are new, they work well, but then they get rusty, parts break and replacement parts are hard to comeby. WP is trying to get his machine going, but so far his machine is not working well.

[dtwarren]

I was surprised to learn that Sheila Meegan had no idea that the Town was appealing as reported in this piece: http://www.wivb.com/global/story.asp?s=9173297 and she supports downsizing.

As early as last week it was reported that both I and the Town were planning to appeal ( http://www.wkbw.com/news/local/30521779.html ) and Ralph Mohr was urging the county to appeal as well ( http://www.buffalonews.com/258/story/456285.html ).

She was also the only council person to second Mr. Piotrowski's motion on this issue and she made it abundantly clear that she was doing so for purposes of discussion only and then voted against it.

Now that she is for it perhaps she could sponsor a resolution to have a vote on the question at the Biennial Town Election in 2009 and save the taxpayers some money!

[dtwarren]

Today I filed and served my Notice of Appeal of Judge Mintz's order in this matter.

[Lucky Larry]

APPELLATE JUDGE TELLS WEST SENECA TOWN BOARD TO SCHEDULE REFERENDUM

Full Appeals Court To Make Final Decision on October 27th


Buffalo, NY - New York State Appellate Division Justice Erin Peradotto this afternoon re-iterated a previous court order requiring the West Seneca Town Board to schedule a downsizing referendum this November. She also denied a town board effort to delay an appeals court final decision on the matter.

The effect of the ruling is that the town board is again placed under order to let voters decide whether to reduce government. The appeals court will make a final decision on Monday October 27, in time to hold a downsizing referendum this November.

"For the second time in two weeks, a court has reminded politicians that the public will is more important than their individual desires," Kevin Gaughan said. "This is a magnificent victory for citizens seeking a better future for our community."

[dtwarren]

The automatic stay pending appeal was only temporarily lifted until the full court could consider the application on October 21, 2008.

The Erie County Board of Elections filed their notice of appeal on October 16, 2008.

[Lucky Larry]

The TB this evening has set NOVEMBER 17th for a special election on
the DOWNSIZING REFERENDUM, this is predicated on the Appeals
Court ruling in favor of the current order scheduled in Rochester Oct
27th .:):):):):):)

The people have spoken and the TB will now give us the right to
decide. :p:p:p:p

If anyone is interested in helping with a literature drop, we meet
at Dunkin Donuts on Saturdays at 9am. Lit drop usually takes 2 hours,
you can deliver the literature on Sat, Sun or Monday.

Everyone is welcome.:):):):)

[dtwarren]

That date is subject to the current order not being stayed, enjoined or overturned.

The Appellate Division is hearing the motion relative to the stay tomorrow.

The Town and Board of Elections appeals will be heard by the Appellate Division on October 27, 2008.

The Appellate Division will be heaing my motion for a stay and preliminary injunction on November 3, 2008.

[FJB]

Congrats West Seneca. Win or lose at least democracy is working in West Seneca. It's amazing that they would rather spend money to move it past Nov 6th when everyone will be out to vote for President. I guess they are really afraid of this effort passing.

[dtwarren]

Congrats West Seneca. Win or lose at least democracy is working in West Seneca. It's amazing that they would rather spend money to move it past Nov 6th when everyone will be out to vote for President. I guess they are really afraid of this effort passing.

Election day is November 4. When is Hamburg, where you and Gaughan live, going to consider this?

[Spirit of Ebenezer]

Hey,.... Lucky "Rudy", given your new found penchant of wanting to eliminate council members, I suppose, in a sense, you were voting to get rid of yourself last Sept. Now there's a proposal I bet many who know you, would get behind. ;)

[Cgoodsp466]

Congrats West Seneca tell these free cheesers to get steppen. Proud of you Kevin.:D

[FJB]

Election day is November 4. When is Hamburg, where you and Gaughan live, going to consider this?

OK I got the date wrong. Nov 4 it is! I would be happy to see this on the ballot only because it shows democracy in action. Pass or fail, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the people get to choose how much government they want in their community.

[Lucky Larry]

Are you a property owner in West Seneca, NY?
Do you pay West Seneca Town Taxes, Erie County Property Taxes,
West Seneca School Taxes?

Who gave you permission to use Town Hall for your meeting?
Names please.....

No legal ease, just straight answers.
Thank You

[dtwarren]

Are you a property owner in West Seneca, NY?

Yes, but you should have already known this since it is a matter of public record.


Do you pay West Seneca Town Taxes, Erie County Property Taxes,
West Seneca School Taxes?

Yes.



Who gave you permission to use Town Hall for your meeting?
Names please.....

No legal ease, just straight answers.
Thank You

I contacted Councilmember Bove and asked if it would be possible for me to have a citizens forum on this issue since I was not given the opportunity like Mr. Gaughan had in the summer. She responded that it should not be a problem and made the necessary arrangements and advised of a date and time that the facilities would be available which I accepted.

[dtwarren]

OK I got the date wrong. Nov 4 it is! I would be happy to see this on the ballot only because it shows democracy in action. Pass or fail, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the people get to choose how much government they want in their community.

The people will be given the opportunity to vote on this issue. The contention is over what exact question and at what time. You can see this based on the resolution that was passed by the Town Board.

[Spirit of Ebenezer]

Who gave you permission to use Town Hall for your meeting?
Names please.....

Hey Russo, unlike you, Dan has the respect of those on both sides of the town council, major and minor.

[Lucky Larry]

Dan, if you are the owner of the address the you live at, then why are
you not listed as the owner on the tax bill. I went to Town Hall and
purchased a copy of the tax bill for your residence.

You are not Donna A....y, who is listed as the owner.
You continue your fight, along with the three council members, to spend
OUR TAX DOLLARS, on these lawsuits.

If you were a WS Property TAXPAYER, you might think differently, about
spending THOUSANDS of DOLLARS of TAXPAYER MONEY on Greenan and
Company. For those that don't know Greenan is part of Harris Beach LLP,
who was retained by Bove, Graber and Clarke. I know you are representing
yourself so save letting us know. The three stooges would not have been
smart enough without your help, they needed guidance, you provided
it to them and that equals Lawsuit and TAXPAYER MONEY being spent.


Dan, you probably mean well, but you are misguided, if you think Bove,
Graber and Clarke care about you, you are mistaken, Bove is only concerned
about her seat on the Board, Graber about keeping his seat, and Clarke
doesn't want to lose his mentor, since he would be lost.
As we sat in the TB meeting last Monday, people who are not supporting
the downsizing, commented that they really are for the downsizing,
just not this year, they are deathly afraid of Clarke and Meegan
being the two council people that are left on the TB. Obviously, the display
by Clarke, confirms their fears.

Dan, if you want to do some good, start the fight up again, to get
the Seneca Mall project moving. Put your energy into bringing big
business into WS. It's sad to get off the truway and see the vacant land
at the Seneca Mall, continue down Ridge and see an empty lot where
Arby's was located and get to Ridge and OP Road, and see an empty TOPS
Market for the last 10 years and a gas station that has been closed
for 5 years. Channel your energy, in lowering my tax bill , I pay $5400
a year and it keeps going up every year. Why don't you go after the
TB and have Bove, Graber or Clarke to sponsor ELIMINATING PAID
LIFETIME HEALTHCARE BENEFITS for part-time Councilmembers,
eliminate the LIFETIME HEALTHCARE BENEFITS for Retired Town Employees,
Retired Elected Officials and appointed members of the Town.

I doubt that you can get any of the three stooges, to back you in eliminating
this BENEFIT.

As for Mr. Gaughn, he was invited by the Board to present his ideas
on downsizing at a TB meeting.

You on the other hand, are having a forum, using a goverment building
for your personal agenda. I'm sure the Town Attorney, was not consulted
for his opinion, it seems Bove is above the law and gave you permission.

My fight is the cost of government, it's not only the salary of BOVE and
Graber but the Lifetime Healthcare and NYS pension the we will not
be paying out any longer. It's not just the $23,000 a year for salary for
a council member, but 100% healthcare for life. Dan, that doesn't bother
you, no one in private industry get 100% paid health care for a part-time job.

Yesterday, in the Buffalo Snooze, Councilman Mark Dietrick of OP,
stated at the start of the OP Budget meeting that he would give
up his town-provided health insurance starting Jan. 1,
as SAVINGS to the TOWN OF ORCHARD PARK of about $15,000.
Figure out the cost of government and you will agree
this can not continue and the public will pass the referendum to
downsize on NOVEMBER 17th.

By the way, Mr. Gaughn is providing this service and representation
at the lawsuits at NO CHARGE TO WEST SENECA TAXPAYERS.

[dtwarren]

Dan, if you are the owner of the address the you live at, then why are
you not listed as the owner on the tax bill. I went to Town Hall and
purchased a copy of the tax bill for your residence.

You are not a very good detective. It is in my wife's name.




You continue your fight, along with the three council members, to spend
OUR TAX DOLLARS, on these lawsuits.


It was your group that initiated the litigation and compelled the town to hire outside counsel due to the Town Attorney's confilct of interest created by Mr. Piotrowski.





If you were a WS Property TAXPAYER, you might think differently, about
spending THOUSANDS of DOLLARS of TAXPAYER MONEY on Greenan and
Company. For those that don't know Greenan is part of Harris Beach LLP,
who was retained by Bove, Graber and Clarke. I know you are representing
yourself so save letting us know. The three stooges would not have been
smart enough without your help, they needed guidance, you provided
it to them and that equals Lawsuit and TAXPAYER MONEY being spent.


Again, I am a WS Taxpayer and it was your group that chose to litigate this issue rather than collecting new signatures on a proper petition. During oral argument in this matter Mr. Gaughan admitted in open court that he was the one that authored the petition and argued that it was ambiguous. Generally any ambiguities in a writing should be construed against the author.

You should know me by now, I do not side with any particular person or group. I side with whomever agrees with me on a given issue. People who decide what position they side with based on who is on a particular side are nothing more than sheep.

[Lucky Larry]

I guess you wife wears the pants in the family, when I got married
my wife took my last name.
But each to his own.

You didn't answer the rest of my questions!
But reading your posts you really never do.
I know your a wanta be attorney.
Have you ever won a lawsuit

Save me the trouble Dan, do you have a real job, or are you
the house wife.:confused:

[dtwarren]

I have a day job and I do not have to explain to you or anyone else why my wife and I title our property in the manner that we do.

The balance of your post I deemed irrelevant to this issue unless you can explain to me how reducing the size of the town board by 2 members will have a cause and effect on the amount of money spent in anything other than the alleged savings from not having to pay salaries for them.

[Lucky Larry]

Dan, salaries, LIFETIME HEALTH CARE PAID 100%, and a pension
from NY State.
Bove in her 40's and Graber in his 40's.
Life expectancy 85 years.
you do the math.

That is the real issue is eliminating 2 seats = savings.
Cost of government reduced. Once the residence pass this
resolution on November 17th, we will be moving on to
Blasdell and angola.

West Seneca is the test, wear a nice shirt and a tie, the media
that will be at the victory party will be in the hundreds.
Reporters from as far as California have interest in our movement.
The Governor of NY is watching WS and I can tell you this movement
will spread like wildfire in the state.

[dtwarren]

Dan, salaries, LIFETIME HEALTH CARE PAID 100%, and a pension
from NY State.
Bove in her 40's and Graber in his 40's.
Life expectancy 85 years.
you do the math.

That is the real issue is eliminating 2 seats = savings.
Cost of government reduced. Once the residence pass this
resolution on November 17th, we will be moving on to
Blasdell and angola.

West Seneca is the test, wear a nice shirt and a tie, the media
that will be at the victory party will be in the hundreds.
Reporters from as far as California have interest in our movement.
The Governor of NY is watching WS and I can tell you this movement
will spread like wildfire in the state.

First you are assuming that the remaining three will not vote themselves a raise and hire more staff as a result of this "downsizing".

Second although I agree as a general proposition that these are significant factors driving the costs of governement, but this does nothing to address these issues.

[Lucky Larry]

You need to fight for eliminating the PAID HEALTH CARE- 100% that
is paid by the taxpayer.
A raise if they decided to give on is still less if you have 3 not 5.

Next week I am filing a FOIA for the true cost to the taxpayer for
health care cost for employees, council members, and retirees.

Maybe than you will understand what we are trying to accomplish.

Dan, answer me this question, do you think part-time council members,
retirees and employees should get health care paid for life?

Hiring more staff is a BOVE idea to side track her losing her seat

[dtwarren]

Dan, answer me this question, do you think part-time council members,
retirees and employees should get health care paid for life?

I don't, but eliminating two board members will not change this.

[Lucky Larry]

How do you figure it will not save any money?
Salary not paid to two councilmembers( let's use 40 years)
and say no raises:D
$23,000 x 2 TBM X 40 years=$1,840,000.00Let's use $15,000 per year per councilmember for health care payments
$15,000 x 2 TBM x 40 years=$1,200,000.00

This assumes no raises and BCBS not raising rates:rolleyes:

$3,040,000 over 40 years( not including pensions)

[dtwarren]

Again, how are you reasonably assured that more employees would not be hired to replace the two positions eliminated and/or raises given to the remaining council members?

[Lucky Larry]

If, I had the answer to that question, I'd be playing Mega Millions.
But, I do know by eliminating 2 council members will atleast save
$3,040,000 Plus pensions.
By the way most of the crap that the TB handles is a waste of time.
Example: Voting to approve a Halloween parade.
Voting to approve 5K run.
Voting to approve West Seneca Community of Churches Crop Walk.
I could go on and listing the items that are a waste of time, but you get the idea.

Let the town clerk issue a permit, maybe we can make $10 per function.

The point is pressure will be put on every town and village to downsize.
Downsizing than becomes a bargaining chip, when elected offiicials feel that
their jobs are in jeperdy, they are willing to negotiate, that is where health
care payment and elimination of the benefit becomes negotiable to keep the
seat. Either way, the taxpayer wins.

[Niagara]

If, I had the answer to that question, I'd be playing Mega Millions.
But, I do know by eliminating 2 council members will atleast save
$3,040,000 Plus pensions.
By the way most of the crap that the TB handles is a waste of time.
Example: Voting to approve a Halloween parade.
Voting to approve 5K run.
Voting to approve West Seneca Community of Churches Crop Walk.
I could go on and listing the items that are a waste of time, but you get the idea.

Let the town clerk issue a permit, maybe we can make $10 per function.

The point is pressure will be put on every town and village to downsize.
Downsizing than becomes a bargaining chip, when elected offiicials feel that
their jobs are in jeperdy, they are willing to negotiate, that is where health
care payment and elimination of the benefit becomes negotiable to keep the
seat. Either way, the taxpayer wins.

You argue your position well.
I think that together with a downsize, there could be more direct voter participation on important issues like the hockey rink, and the tax collector position. There could be some guidelines as to issues which should/could be made a referendum. This would negate some of the decreased representation caused by a downsized board.

[dtwarren]

If, I had the answer to that question, I'd be playing Mega Millions.
But, I do know by eliminating 2 council members will atleast save
$3,040,000 Plus pensions.

Even by your own admission and calculations its over 40 years and it is really statistically insignificant and speculative. Using your numbers this would only reduce the current tentative budget by .1458% not even 2/10 of 1% with no assurance that it will be maintained.


By the way most of the crap that the TB handles is a waste of time.
Example: Voting to approve a Halloween parade.
Voting to approve 5K run.
Voting to approve West Seneca Community of Churches Crop Walk.


These would have to be voted on by the TB regardless of the size of the Town Board.



I could go on and listing the items that are a waste of time, but you get the idea.

Let the town clerk issue a permit, maybe we can make $10 per function.

The point is pressure will be put on every town and village to downsize.
Downsizing than becomes a bargaining chip, when elected offiicials feel that
their jobs are in jeperdy, they are willing to negotiate, that is where health
care payment and elimination of the benefit becomes negotiable to keep the
seat. Either way, the taxpayer wins.

I do not believe this argument either, the Erie County Legislature voluntarily reduced its size from 20 to 17 in 1981 and then it was reduced from 17 to 15 in 2004 and this did not place any pressure on any other political body to reduce its size and there were much more cost savings on the county level because the county legislators had district offices and full time staffers which the Town Board members do not have.

[dtwarren]

There could be some guidelines as to issues which should/could be made a referendum. This would negate some of the decreased representation caused by a downsized board.

What is subject to a mandatory or permissive referendum for Towns are established by State Statute that the Town Board cannot change even if it wanted to.

[Spirit of Ebenezer]

Bove in her 40's and Graber in his 40's.
Aww......, how sweet of you "Larry" ! Hope I don't make you blush, but Tina's a bit older than you think or see. Yes, she always appears looking her best. Obviously it's working in your eyes. ;)

[dtwarren]

Next week I am filing a FOIA for the true cost to the taxpayer for
health care cost for employees, council members, and retirees.



Just a point of information it is FOIL for state agencies and municipalities, FOIA is for federal agencies.

[Cgoodsp466]

Hey Russo, unlike you, Dan has the respect of those on both sides of the town council, major and minor.

Now that says alot for the mental midgets on that town council.

[Niagara]

What is subject to a mandatory or permissive referendum for Towns are established by State Statute that the Town Board cannot change even if it wanted to.

I know that the only referendum presently allowed in NYS is downsizing, but I do not think it should be that way, and certainly can be fixed, and should be. In California, they are famous for their propositions.

[dtwarren]

I know that the only referendum presently allowed in NYS is downsizing, but I do not think it should be that way, and certainly can be fixed, and should be. In California, they are famous for their propositions.

Downsizing is not the only proposition allowed the people can vote on increasing the number on the council from 2 to 4 or 4 to 6.

I agree that the number and type of referendums permitted should be increased, but that is a matter of state law and in most states that permit citizen initiatives (there are 24 of them) that right is secured to the people in their state constitution.

[Niagara]

I agree that the number and type of referendums permitted should be increased, but that is a matter of state law and in most states that permit citizen initiatives (there are 24 of them) that right is secured to the people in their state constitution.

Yes it is a matter of state law. The state law should be changed, and although it is a right secured in their (the 24) state constitution, I doubt that an amendment to the constitution is required to allow it.

[dtwarren]

You are right that a state constitutional amendment is not required to grant it, but then its is not a right and may be limited or abolished by the legislative body, however if secured through an amendment to the state constitution it can only be limited or abolished by the people.

[Niagara]

You are right that a state constitutional amendment is not required to grant it, but then its is not a right and may be limited or abolished by the legislative body, however if secured through an amendment to the state constitution it can only be limited or abolished by the people.

DT, of course an amendment would be preferable, but it is probably unrealistic. First try for the realistic, then go for the unrealistic.
We are talking representitive government. To do that you need representitives. Without that (few representitives), go back to the basics. LL has a point if what they are deciding presently is silly like should we allow a fence on Main St, or a parade somewhere, then probably no, we do not need five people. But on the occasional important issue like a town twin hockey rink, or fixing up the present one, or a police station with increased taxes, maybe a town vote at the time of an existing election would be a nice idea.