Save South Buffalo Libraries

[Unregistered]

After attending three public meetings, I have come to the conclusion that the public is being coaxed into a proposal of a “new library” in a community that uses and enjoys the successful Dudley and Cazenovia Branch Libraries. When speaking to hundreds of residents in front of Dudley, Cazenovia and at community functions around South Buffalo, one thing became evident to me. Most of South Buffalo residents are not aware that this plan would close their local neighborhood libraries. Even at the last community meeting, many still had no opinion one way or another. No information was given out at any of the three meetings, except the fact that the library would be 12,000 square feet and cost $4,000,000 or “whatever it takes” to get it done.

The need for more meeting space was given as one of the reasons we would want a new building. The Cazenovia branch has a meeting room that was designed for 84 people (1250 sq. feet), but is rarely used. It is located in the basement area, and was designed for this use in the original design. Yes, the Cazenovia branch needs ADA handicap access. The Council Member Mrs. Martino promised to find the funding for ramps and an elevator at the public meeting held by library officials at Cazenovia in 2000. I say we should save millions of taxpayer dollars and spend just what is needed to update Cazenovia to ADA standards, and budget what is needed at Dudley. It really would only take a little to achieve a lot.

The Cazenovia library has ample street parking. I counted parking for 20 cars along the Parkway right next to it. Please remember that this branch is in a Park, and most residents love walking to this facility. I observed about 9 out of 10 patrons walked to the Dudley and Cazenovia Libraries A new library would eliminate this type of access to the Library System, in two very distinct South Buffalo Neighborhoods. Dudley has a parking lot for 23
vehicles as well as street parking.

The library officials and politicians keep talking about new technology at the public forums. The Cazenovia and Dudley have the latest computers. Most times they are readily available. Access to computers and services would be eliminated, because the Library would be out of reach to many. In 2000 most people opposed the big plan, because they favored their neighborhood libraries. Many South Buffalo residents were not aware of the recent meetings that were held by the Buffalo & Erie County Library, and hosted by Council Member Martino and County Legislator Mark Schroder. I attended all 3 meetings and got the impression that the plan was lacking any real consideration from those who are opposed.

A new petition drive has started, and shows that most library patrons in South Buffalo oppose this plan. I would like to mention that Hundreds of patrons I personally spoke to at the Cazenovia and Dudley branches were not aware of this revisited plan. Many thought that we already decided as a community in 2000. Most like their neighborhood library and say leave it alone. A Museum at Cazenovia would only serve us once or twice a year. In addition, no major bookstore has expressed any interest in the Dudley location. Residents fear empty buildings that have been an eyesore for years. The Police station on Seneca Street and the Park Casino are prime examples.

All the new suburban branches were replaced 1 for 1 as well. The 2 for 1 would take away too much from the community. Library proposals were designed to be a system where the community tells them what they want. The new plan is designed by the County Executive to become policy. We the residents didn't go to the officials and ask for this. The people spoke already when they came to 22 BECPL meetings when 22 libraries were threatened with elimination. Well over 10,000 citizens signed the petition in the county. The new petition has netted over to 1,000 signatures. This new petition drive is just in South Buffalo, so far. It may expand as people all over the county start to realize that they have to fight to keep their libraries open again.

[WNYresident]

But you are missing the point, there's a developer that wants to profit from building a new library. They don't care that we don't need one.

You should hold your ground and fight. If your community does not want one library but the two smallers ones organize your people now.

Can you get the operating cost for the two libraries? We can compare the running cost compared to the new cost of what they want to build minus $4,000,000 they want to spend.

You know are leaders are not the brightest bulbs in the pack. Just look around you, proof is everywhere.

[Unregistered]

I have a feeling that these leaders just want a ribbon cutting. Now that the folks in the Dudley area are real upset about losing services, I'm sure they will return the favor by voting the dim bulbs out of office.

[buffalofamily]

At first when I heard about a new Library in South Buffalo, I was in favor, but after attend three informal meetings I am opposed!

The politicians avoided giving any real answers or even letting the public give any imput into this process. They showed a fancy video of the Clarence Library. They are not proposing anything near what the Clarence is. They are stating that we need new "technology", when it's a fact that all the libraries get the new computers and programs system wide!

A is a group that has over 1,250 petition signatures against this plan, and most most of my friends and neighbors don't like the idea either. Why aren't we given a choice? Why are we being ignored?

HOW DID ONE MEETING TO GUAGE INTEREST IN THE COMMUNITY BECOME A FORMAL MEETING??? We were asked by a Library Board Member if we wanted to come back for another meeting to get more information. NO REAL INFORMATION WAS AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC AT THE FIRST INFORMAL MEETING!

HOW DID THE SECONED MEETING (held during a snowstorm when everything else in WNY was cancelled) BECOME THE BASIS FOR THIS AWFUL DECISION (based on the politicians friends and supporters that did attend) ??? NO NEW INFORMATION WAS GIVEN OTHER THAN A PROMISE OF "$4,000,000 or whatever it takes".

At the last informal meeting (WRONG ADDRESS WAS GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC FOR THE THIRD MEETING LOCATION BY THE LIBRARY OFFICIALS IN FLIERS AND PRESS) some were in favor, some were opposed and most weren't sure either way on weather they wanted a change in services! SOME RESIDENTS QUESTIONS WERE IGNORED AND NO INFORMATION GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC!!!

Something is wrong with this situation. I think an investigation is in order. Maybe the media should look at the facts from both sides of this issue. So far, the media has ignored the community and sided with the politicians and Library board!

Buffalo Family

[watchdog]

[/B]
Something is wrong with this situation. I think an investigation is in order. Maybe the media should look at the facts from both sides of this issue. So far, the media has ignored the community and sided with the politicians and Library board!

Buffalo Family [/B]
Sounds interesting...

Can you please contact me about your Issue...I am intrested in talking to too you...

buffalowatchdog@aol.com

[Unregistered]

Didn't the entire Western New Your community tell the B&ECPL to take this plan and stick it in 2000. It sounds like they are using the same plan but one neighborhood at a time, so the publicity stays quiet.

To me, the real issue is access to these vital services. The children and seniors in the Dudley Library South Park Ave. area will be unable to walk to the Seneca Street area. Many adults don't have transportation in the area as well. Most students are already on busses just to get to and from school, due to the lack of neighborhood schools. Working families are not going to want to make a road trip just to get to the library.

This is a prime example of how the politicians are ruining Buffalo.

[buffalofamily]

Here is what the Library found out after 22 community meetings in 2000.What the Public Said:
Community Meetings Conclude

Nearly 2,000 citizens attended 22 public meetings held across Erie County from January through May to discuss B&ECPL’s proposed strategic plan. Below are the opinions expressed most frequently by those who attended the meetings or by those who submitted written comments.

"DON’T CLOSE MY LIBRARY!"
This theme was repeated at every meeting.

QUALITY OF LIFE
Most attendees are already upset about the loss of a post office, police station, bank or supermarket and consider the loss of a library further erosion of the vitality of their community.

ACCESS
People want convenience and the option of walking to the library if they choose.

TRANSPORTATION
Parking does not appear to be as critical an issue in the city as it is in the suburbs and rural areas. Proximity to public transportation is a major factor, but schedules may need to be changed to accommodate library use after school and in the evening. Many asserted that: "A new library doesn’t serve us if we can’t get to it."

NEW CONSTRUCTION QUESTIONS
Concerns were raised about the source of funding for new library construction and the ownership and location of new buildings. A critical issue is the fate of empty structures should new libraries be built since every vacant building contributes to neighborhood blight.

RETROFIT
Instead of building new, model libraries and abandoning the old ones, many advocate retrofitting wherever possible.

SIZE
"Sometimes smaller is better," many claim. The overwhelming majority of meeting attendees are unwilling to sacrifice nearby small libraries for a new larger library that is farther away.

TAXES
Most who attended expressed a willingness to pay more for library services, but this is not universal as some raised concerns about increased taxes.

A DONE DEAL
Many believed cost savings are the impetus for the proposed plan and, despite B&ECPL’s assertions to the contrary, that the changes will be made because the plan is a "done deal."

PUBLIC OFFICIALS
Local officials expressed a commitment to keeping all libraries open and acknowledged the need to improve them, both physically and by providing more hours and services. Several pledged funding to achieve this.

FINE AS IT IS
In general, people believe that the library system is great as it is. "If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!"

This is information provided by the B&ECPL system!

WHY ARE THEY TRYING THIS AGAIN??? If they get away with this it will happen all over WNY.

[Allyssa]

Those in favor of closing down two libraries seem to be working on a multi-level marketing scheme. They keep pushing the “plan” but have not shown any indication of an actual product, aside from a video of the Clarence Branch library and how it compares to the smaller Cazenovia and Dudley. Are we really going to get something just as big and fancy as Clarence? Probably not! Pretty flowers and modern art deco don’t make up for the knowledge that is gained inside a public library of any size. And they have not given me any good reason to feel a “new” library will better the community that I live in.

Furthermore, we are not opposed to a new library. We stand for equal opportunity in library usage for both neighborhoods. The Library Board and politicians aren’t playing a fair game when it comes to serving their communities; they have a responsibility to assist and support their people first and foremost! They should not allow themselves to be taken in on something that isn’t in agreement by the entire community. As many here have mentioned it’s all about the photo-op and ribbon cutting that the politicians want while campaigning for re-election.

It would be a completely different story if these two branches were run-down, poorly maintained and have inadequate employees. That’s not the case; both are highly respectable locations in South Buffalo, both are sufficiently running and both are satisfactory in providing excellent customer service to library patrons.

We have every right in this free country to protest against something we don’t believe in, it says so as Article 1 (ONE) in the United States Constitution… {Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances}.

We, whom are opposed, are not the “bad” people in all of this just because we won’t give-in to their consolidation proposal. We want to take a stand and them know that public libraries belong to the people and not the politicians.

Thank you,
Allyssa (South Buffalo)

[WNYresident]

Well we can't sit on are butts anymore seeing they will just do what ever they want to do.

The reason i started this message board is what is happening around WNY. The residents are not getting what they want, the politicians are just taking what they want.

I think it's time you really group up the anti-new Library people and get started. You know that $4,000,000 they will take from us can be used better else where in the community. Or a new idea, just don't spend it in the first place.

[Unregistered]

The library issue is a classic example of just what is wrong with Western New York. The consultants came in and said that the library system is hemmoraging money and is incredibly wasteful becase of inefficiencies, building maintainence, etc..
What does everyone say? Don't close MY library! Heaven forbid if we change anything. I'm sure you all have good reasons for wanting to keep your corner library. And somebody else has their good reason for not merging their police department with the county. And somebody else has a good reason for not wanting to privatize certian services. Well, guess what? Your local government is BROKE!!! All your children are moving away! Your property values are declining and your taxes are increasing! Companies are moving out of the region because they are tired of paying the taxes needed to support a bazillion little libraries on every other street corner! It's not enough to say "something is good and we need to save it." You have to say "can we really afford it". Or, if you want to bury your head in the sand and be irresponsible, have a control board come in to do the dirty work for you. It's kind of like blaming the bankruptcy court judge when he takes 2 of your 3 cars away...

[WNYresident]

Acutally you are wrong. Spending $4,000,000 is wrong. showing a saving's 30 years down the line is insane, that's a generation.

Now i don't know the actual cost so i'm arguing a little blind here.

Lets say 2 libaries cost $300,000 a year to run. 4 libarians, 2 assistants and utilities. i wish i had real numbers though..

then 1 big libarary cost $200,000 a year to run seeing you cut perhaps 2 employees. You saved $100,000. Now you spend $4,000,000 to save that $100,000. Big deal. You take $4,000,000 divided by $100,000 and that's 40 years before you save anything. I may be wrong but from the outside that is what is looks like.

Now if we can pamper our local goverment employees with plantium insurance, a few with $30,000 cars, politicians that are over paid for thier duties and patronage idiots, you can let a communty keep it's librarys.

And we do want change, just change what needs changing first.

[Unregistered]

I think we investigate the lottery and OTB and purge the patronage out of there and put the savings into the libraries.

[Unregistered]

"...i wish i had real numbers though.."
Well, you don't.
It's qiute easy to argue a point when you really have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than you or I comprehend.
What you DO know is that you really like your library and you hope it doesn't get removed. It's the same game with military base closures - each community lobbies their congressmen to keep their superflourous air base or navy yard when they are no longer needed. It's nothing more than selfish self-interest and nothing more. That's why the feds have the base closure commission - It's all or nothing on their list and the congessmen can't negotiiate individual bases on behalf of their constituants.
Just how much of the library system budget pays for roof repair, inefficient heating and a/c, plumbing repair of all these little old libraries? Do you even know? How much revenue could be generated by the sale of these properties in the process of building fewer and better libraries? I can think of one - Delaware/Hertel - prime retail location on a busy corner lot in the city. Then that propery creates jobs AND property tax revenue! That library is about as useful a third leg. GET RID OF IT!
"...And we do want change, just change what needs changing first..."
You (and others like you) are the reason why Buffalo is in the sorry state it is in. If you asked EVERYONE what doesn't need to changed, you would get a list of EVERYTHING and nothing would change at all. One mans "worthy cause" is another mans "selfish self-interest".
It's a lot easier to "blame namelss people" who "take too much" than to actually get down to specifics as to what needs to be cut.

[buffalofamily]

Thest are not little libraries in need of any major repair. These are two very successful branches in the top 5 of circulation. The argument that it costs too much to mantain is bugus. The politicians that want to close it use the expense argument, but in the next promise they spew out is the promise of reuse of these facilities! HMMM! AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE.

Take a closer look at the library system budget, and you'll find that payroll and human resources are the biggest slice of the expense side of the equation.

Caz was built in 1925 and is a treasure of the Cazenovia Olmstead park. It's heating and roof has been repaired in recent years. Dudley was built in 1963, and if that's too old, we might as well tear down all of the area including many suburban libraries.

Let's not forget that we pay taxes to support these Libraries. Payroll tax, sales tax, property tax are all paid by us! They belong to the people, NOT THE POLITICIANS and their buddies.

The ALA supports their Librarians fighting to keep branches open nationwide, even in these tough economic times. Why can't our Librarians and workers fight for this??? The answer is politics and fear of losing their job.

This is not "self interest". I live near the Cazenovia branch, but fighting more to keep Dudley open, because I can't imagine the children walking after school, at night to a library outside their area. This is the city and not the suburbs. People WALK to these wonderful libraries. It is also not "self interest" for people to fight against a take it or leave it proposal. That's the plan. We have no say in the size, location, number of books, hours of operation, what it should look like and who constructs it. The plan won't allow a one for one replacement like suburban branches.

BTW--Repairs are done by the city at Caz and Dudley. The proposed consolidation takes away control of these Buffalo Libraries, and the new one would be run by the county. At first they stated it would be a Buffalo branch, and later changed that promise.

buffalo family

[WNYresident]

Well seeing i'm a armchair accountant why don't we just put the numbers togeather.

I bet there are a lot of people that will take the time if the accounting department has the actual figures on paper.

A lot of stuff in our local goverment is smoke and mirrors, it's time to clear the smoke and break the mirrors. Show us that we are wrong and that the one bigger library is better.

It's time we start to put things in writing.

also

>>>

It's qiute easy to argue a point when you really have no idea what you are talking about. I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than you or I comprehend.

>>>

What makes you understand this better than we do? Register at least if you expect us to take your comments seriously. :) Prove us wrong and make us look stupid. :)

[Unregistered]

"Take a closer look at the library system budget, and you'll find that payroll and human resources are the biggest slice of the expense side of the equation."
That would be addressed with fewer libraries.

"The politicians that want to close it use the expense argument, but in the next promise they spew out is the promise of reuse of these facilities! HMMM! AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE. "
Politicians are merely telling their constituents what they think they want to hear. Close it, sell it, and return it to the tax rolls I say.

"A lot of stuff in our local goverment is smoke and mirrors, it's time to clear the smoke and break the mirrors. Show us that we are wrong and that the one bigger library is better."
You already have that data - it was generated by the consultanting firm in 2000 (I believe). They provided a list of libraries recommended to be closed and everyone had a fit. They also said that the Buffalo & Erie county library system is about the most inefficient in the nation.

"The proposed consolidation takes away control of these Buffalo Libraries, and the new one would be run by the county."
Thank god!!

"We have no say in the size, location, number of books, hours of operation, what it should look like and who constructs it."
That's what architects and Library professionals are for. That same kind of "what about my opinion on this project" thinking has resulted in no peace bridge replacement being built for, what about 10 years now?

What makes you understand this better than we do?"
I seem to have a greater respect for economic reality than a lot of of other people in buffalo and I base my views on "can we pay for it" rather than "what do we want".


"Prove us wrong and make us look stupid."
This isn't about you being stupid. It's about identifying the deeply engrained political beleifs that are ruining western new york and holding them up to the light of honest and forthright dabate.


"Register at least if you expect us to take your comments seriously."
Would my points be any more (or less) valid if you knew my identity? Perhaps I'll post a link to my photograph as well. You might even take my comments that much more seriously if you find me handsome. :)

[WNYresident]

We want people to register so it's easier to read over all what your comments are. Perhaps you are totally right and you could be the person that can make wny more efficient.

SO far though, the consultants and local leaders it seems just add cost what is going on in wny. What have they really done in the last 30 years that we can say "Wow that was a good idea"?

I'd like more regionalization than having duplicated services in the first place. I'm cheap :)

He's one for you? If there is going to be a new library built can we bid it out and NOT have PLA agreements? I mean if we are going to have a new library lets do the most efficient way then. We don't care who builds it as long as they are residents of WNY. Every resident has families, just because your a union member doesn't mean you should get special treatment.

But in all honestly we should take the true running cost of each library and compare it to the estimate cost of the one single one. Plus factor in the $4,000,000 to built the new one over the life time of the new building.

$4,000,000 is a lot of money to earn back though savings. Do you go and replace your furnance for $3000 when you old one is 6% less efficient just because there's a new model every year?

Are these libraries more of a community center than a library?

And as change, we need to look at the people running the goverment before removing public services such as a library.

Here's one, someone mentioned that Anthony Orsini, Jr. of the indepentant party got a patronage job at OTB. $50,000 to hand out paper from a card table at OTB locations. Is this true?

How about the mayor of lackawanna getting his job at hte erie county water authority and then having the nerve to say he can me mayor too. What does he do at the water authority along with all the other people that get hired as engeeneers? Egads we must be growing by leaps and bounds in the area to keep adding those people.

How about the patronage hire in the amherst highway department for deputy superivisor? Hired someone from the election board who has no experience for the position.

Lets go investigate HEAP, a lot of people say there's a lot of curruption there. or how about social services? They just hired a few months ago Greg Olma. For what? He went to school for a law i think? Now he's in the compliance department? Lets see who he made comply since he's been hired.

We need to purge all the losers out of the system

Lets say there are 100 people just in erie county that are not needed. Those pennies add up. Those are the changes we need to make first.

SO library people? Go get the numbers for gas, electric, payroll, and maintance cost and lets compare which is better for the community money wise. THere must be a budget in accounting per library in the accounting department in buffalo or erie county. If not, time to replace the people doing the accounting. A business runs book broken by departments, the city/county should to.


We can calculate by the numbers to see which is better. The older buildings are already there and paid for. How many people acutally go to each library now? I mean if it's only like 20 people a week, there is no point to keeping them open. We do have to be sensible. Lets say each library cost the tax payer $500,000 a year divided by the amount of people that use it gives us a high number. Then it's not worth keeping, simple as that.

So un-registered poster? Would you help these people calculate the acutal cost of the old libraries against the new one?

I started this message board to make a difference seeing EVERYone tells me not to waste my time, you can't make a difference. I just got tired of hearing the same old story year after year and watching the area go down the tubes. Step up to the plate with me unregistered and help me make a difference.

My email address is editor@speakupwny.com I hope to hear from you.

[buffalofamily]

I am registered and you all should too! The libraries are not run as a community enter, but could be. Caz has an auditorium that is hardly ever used.

South Buffalo has a steady population, and 2 libraries are justified. Statistically we are undersrerved with only 2 libraries. We have given enough in the name of regional services. Libraries are one entity that should be left alone in the consolidation of services. Access to information is key in our free society, no matter what the costs. The cost of keeping these services is a bargain.

A Majority of South Buffalo Residents HAVE already, and are still opposed this plan, BUT are now being IGNORED by the Library Board and elected Officials! REMEMBER THAT NO PUBLIC MEETINGS WERE HELD IN THE DUDLEY BRANCH SOUTH PARK AVENU NEIGHBORHOOD. All the 3 meetings took place at or near the Cazenovia Branch.

Will your taxes go down if they close our Dudley and Cazenovia Branch Neighborhood Libraries? How will our children of South Buffalo walk to a Library that is out of their reach? If we are broke, how can we afford $4,000,000 as Deputy County Executive Carl Calabrese promised us in public. FIX OUR SUCCESSFUL CAZENOVIA AND DUDLEY BRANCH NEIGHBORHOOD BRANCHES!!! Save Million$ of OUR Tax Dollars!


South Buffalo deserves the two existing locations that serve all the needs of our community. We have paid taxes for them for generations! It’s OUR TAX MONEY. We are mad as heck, and we’re not taking it anymore!!!


Buffalo family

[Unregistered]

I am unregistered and shall choose to remain so. I do not believe I should have to reveal my identity or provide a psudonym that allows my commentary to be tracked and indexed. I feel my opinions should speak for themselves and should be judged solely on the merit of their content. I also feel that by participating in what is turning out to be a very interesting public policy forum, I am "doing my part" by saying things that probably need to be said. I have posted to other threads on this site as well. You can find my posts listed as "unregistered" if you want to read them :)

[Unregistered]

"Access to information is key in our free society, no matter what the costs"
You have never seen any time in history when information has been cheaper. I do support the notion of a free public library but it is less critical than it has ever been in the US. And you certianly don't need a many libraries in buffalo at such an outrageous cost.

"The cost of keeping these services is a bargain"
go to http://www.google.com - it's free.

"THAT NO PUBLIC MEETINGS WERE HELD IN THE DUDLEY BRANCH SOUTH PARK AVENU NEIGHBORHOOD."
by that thinking, meetings should have been held in EVERY neighborhood that has a library.

"FIX OUR SUCCESSFUL CAZENOVIA AND DUDLEY BRANCH NEIGHBORHOOD BRANCHES!!!"
I doubt anyone would identify their library as "FAILING", so "SUCCESSFUL " is somewhat fuzzy.

"The libraries are not run as a community enter, but could be"
"community enter"="tax revenue sponge, patronage portal, etc..."

"How will our children of South Buffalo walk to a Library that is out of their reach?"
When was it determined that every child in America is entitled to a library within walking distance to their homes?

"We have paid taxes for them for generations!"
And you're still paying... Except for the young people who are sick of it and move away...

[buffalofamily]

Unregistered,

The costs of these Libraries has not been a problem. An enormous percentage of the B&ECPL costs are personnel. You can be sure that the folks running the branches day to day aren't the big bucks employees. I will find the exact % of the budget that personnel is for you, so I don't "misinform" you the public.

Internet access is available at Public Libraries for many who don't have a computer. About 40% of Buffalo's adult population and an even larger percentage of seniors are without access to cars. City living is by design, a lifestyle where services are accessable by walking. These computer services are available to City, Suburban and Rural areas. The number of Library locations should reflect the areas they serve. The average population per branch in the suburbs is 15,000. Average population per branch in Buffalo is 22,000, and would rise to 22,500 per branch in Buffalo if Dudley and Cazenovia are replaced.

"Successful" means they serve the public well. These locations are in the top 4 in book circulation. Dudley is ADA handicapped accessible. Cazenovia is the 5th. largest library in Buffalo. Cazenovia and Dudley are in two distinct South Buffalo neighborhoods that children can safely walk to. Let's not forget that they are community assets that keep property values up. Realitors use statistics of community services when selling homes and commercial property.

In 2000 meetings were held in most areas of WNY, 22 in total.

Your question:
"When was it determined that every child in America is entitled to a library within walking distance to their homes?"
Answer:
Closing branch Libraries would go against the B&ECPL's own Principle #3- "Provide open, EQUAL, and free ACCESS TO INFORMATION in accordance with the American Library Association Bill of Rights."

Start closing services in populated areas and more will leave.

BUFFALO FAMILY

[Unregistered]

I do apologize in advance, but I must rebutt:

"City living is by design, a lifestyle where services are accessable by walking"
This obesrvation is an opinion, not a fact. City living is by evolution. Cities evolved around industrial centers so that workers could travel easily to their occupations. The development of reliable modes of transportation made high-density city living no longer nessessary to service industrial centers with labor (the birth of the suburbs). That some people still choose to live in high density urban areas is entirely their decision, and they must bear the costs associated with their "lifestyle" choice.

"Internet access is available at Public Libraries for many who don't have a computer. About 40% of Buffalo's adult population and an even larger percentage of seniors are without access to cars. "
When did Ben Franklin's public library concept get muddled by internet access and transportation issues? Does the library provide telephone or cable television access (2 other ways to receive electronic information)?

"Closing branch Libraries would go against the B&ECPL's own Principle #3- "Provide open, EQUAL, and free ACCESS TO INFORMATION in accordance with the American Library Association Bill of Rights.""
I think you and I both know that this refers to past racial descrimination issues. I don't know if the B&ECPL had a history of restricted access based on race, but even if they didn't it's still important to mention it as a mission statement. I don't think it means "don't close any libraries in times of fiscal crisis - especially the one that my kids go to"... how ironic that south buffalo people would use a racial equality clause in the B&ECPL charter to defend the closure of their libraries. We all know how south buffalo is so welcoming to people of color!

"Dudley is ADA handicapped accessible. "
I think that by now just about every public building in America is handicapped accessible.

"Realitors use statistics of community services when selling homes and commercial property."
If you built more "public service" facilities and raised taxes to pay for them, would propery values increase? I don't think so.
If you removed some public service facilities and taxes went down, would propery values increase. You might say "no".
So the only other choice is to do nothing - things must be perfect the way they are now. I don't think thats the case.
Oh, by the way, I work with realitors and they a one grade below used-car salesmen and politicians: they will tell you ANYTHING to get the deal closed and their commission check.

"Start closing services in populated areas and more will leave."
Young people don't leave because there aren't enough "services". They leave because there aren't enough job opportunities - the cost of local govermnment drives out industry. You should call young people who have moved away (and I'll bet you know many who have) and ask them WHY they moved. I say we start closing MORE services. Sell off the ice rinks! Long-term lease the golf courses! Put the damn garbage collection out to bid to private industry!!!


"These locations are in the top 4 in book circulation."
Good point. something to consider for sure. Seriously. I'm not here to give you grief. Out of all the things you have said, this by far has had the most impact on me. Sell the truth, not a bunch of self-serving BS. Theres way too much "portraying myself as the victim" BS in WNY politics and thats root of the problem :)

[Unregistered]

I'm not self serving. I have the ability to go to any library. I'm especially fighting to keep Dudley open. It's not the Library that is near me.

Nobody here is talking about race!

Dudley is ADA accessable, but Cazenovia IS NOT. The councilmember Mary Martino PROMISED to find the funds to update Cazenovia fro ADA standards at the public meeting in 2000, but has yet to deliver. The petition to save these branches only asks for a small amount of money be spent to get this done. The latest study said it could be done at a very small cost.

I am selling the truth. All the facts and figures are from public records (Erie County and the B&ECPL public records) THAT"S WHAT MAKES THIS DEAL A BAD ONE AS PROPOSED! The library officials and politicians haven't given out any real information to the public. We know that they have given the community 4 facts:

1.) 2 libraries must close if we want a new one. (WHY)

2.) It would be 12,000 Sq. feet. (less than what we have now, BY FAR)

3.) Cost $4,000,000 or "whatever it takes" (deputy Co. Exec.)

4.) The Co. Legislator promised reuse of the buildings. A Museum for Caz. (would cost us tax money to operate) and still need ADA access! A Barns and Noble bookstore for Dudley with the help of Chuck Schumer was the other laughable reuse promised by Mark JF Schroeder.

I personally spoke to library officials ar the meetings and two inportant things were mentioned.

1.) If they pick a wrong location, it could be a total disaster and failure.

2.) When asked if our library taxes would be cut in half, or remain the same, because services are being cut in half. The answer was NO.

My unregistered friend, I will only give you information based on facts, and Just the facts!

Aren't we allowed an opinion here too! Opinions that could save us "the taxpayers" MILLIONS OF DOLLARS!

Buffalo Family -

[Unregistered]

"1.) 2 libraries must close if we want a new one. (WHY)"
that's part of library consolidation - you had 2 - now you'll have one. The new one will cost less to operate and won't have any major maintenence issues for many years to come.

"2.) It would be 12,000 Sq. feet. (less than what we have now, BY FAR)"
Perhaps your library professionals have determined that a large subset of the books never get checked out and they will offer a smaller library with a greater selection of books that people in your neighborhood frequently check out. It's very easy to determine what books are popular - just ask their computers. Of course, rarely checked out books will still be in a regional library if needed and could probably be ordered at your local branch for pickup. Sounds efficient to me. You would save on heating, staff, construction cost, etc...

"3.) Cost $4,000,000 or "whatever it takes" (deputy Co. Exec.)"
but you'll sell one property AND this cost would be paid for in long term bonds so the yearly expenses of too much staff, maintenence, heating, etc would be redirected to paying for your new library with some savings too.

"A Barns and Noble bookstore for Dudley with the help of Chuck Schumer was the other laughable reuse promised by Mark JF Schroeder."
Why is that laughable? I'd love a new bookstore in my neighborhood. I don't understand why Schroeder believes it's going to be a bookstore though - the property should go to the highest bidder and they should do whatever they want with it.

"1.) If they pick a wrong location, it could be a total disaster and failure."
hmmm, libraries aren't like drive-by retail, whare location is important. Everyone will know where the library will be and make a point to go there if they want to. I don't buy that one at all.

"2.) When asked if our library taxes would be cut in half, or remain the same, because services are being cut in half. The answer was NO. "
That's a retorical question if I ever heard one. I suppose if you cut the number of libraries in half AND had a seperate assessment just for libraries, then the answer would be yes on that assessment. But you're on the right track! now after libraries, we can go after parks, streets, welfare, etc.. and when those departments have also changed their cost structure, you will see your taxes being reduced and your city stop hemmoraging jobs and young people who are the taxpayers and leaders of tomorrow. Or, you can dig you heals in on every issue that affects you and your neighbors and watch your neighborhood decline into ghetto as so many other parts of the city have done.

[Unregistered]

Typical of this community, especially South Buffalo that views government handouts and civil service jobs as birthrights.

Government is broke. We need to look at ways to save dollars and closing two libraries and opening one better one is clearly the way to go.

The bottom line is providing the service (even if in somewhat a different form) at a lower cost to save money.

That way we can reduce taxes and keep (and then create) new private sector jobs.

Of course, private sector jobs may not matter in South Buffalo where everyone already works for the City.

[Unregistered]

"Of course, private sector jobs may not matter in South Buffalo where everyone already works for the City."
Well said! That's a good one.. ;)

[WNYresident]

Why can't we just figure out how much south buffalo pays in taxes and see where it goes?

Perhaps if you add up what south buffalo pays it's not enough to cover 2 libraries. Perhaps there's a few too mayn patronage jobs in the south buffalo area? Perhaps with heap, welfare, etc,etc that's where all the money goes and there just isn't money for 2 libraries.

You know WNY needs to draw out all revenue streams and MAP where it's all going. You might get an eye opener.

I still think the lottery, OTB, Heap, etc need full FBI audits.

Just adding some fuel to the fire :)

[Unregistered]

sounds like a very big accounting job to me. I don't think most people are qualified to analyze so much data ojectively.
I've got a better idea - why don't you have a fundraiser event to pay for a real audit by a nationally recognized professional accounting firm. How could the city govt refuse a free audit? I'll tell you right now they won't like it. If you and other grass-roots people try to do it yourself, your work will just be discounted as amateur and slighted by your own agenda(s).
Have the PROs (who will be working for you, the fundraiser) map out the chain of revenues & expenditures and publish the info for all to see. It won't be cheap, but it won't be a waste of time, either.
And, perhaps the fundraiser itself might be fun! Draft beer and beef on weck, please. You cound call it "the buck stops here for beer". Don't bother trying to rent a city venue though: I'm sure you'll be told "it's not available" for an event of that nature. ;)

[WNYresident]

You know that is an excellent idea!!!!!!!

It should be done for all the towns to. I bet you'd see all the politicians scramble to block something like that.

[Unregistered]

I see unregistered argument about libraries is baised on no facts, just opinion. It's obvious that this person is a Martino and / or Schroder supporter. These are the politicians who are South Buffalo Destroyers.

Sean

[Unregistered]

sean,
why don't you take the time to site & deconstruct my assertions, like I do with the others I don't agree with? It's not enough to just say "that's his opinion and I think it's wrong". If I'm so wrong, tell me how and why. I don't give a rat's ass about "destroying south buffalo". I want to change the mindset of everyone in the region. It appears that south buffalo people have demonstrated that they are the most entrenched politically and will say just about anything to keep the status quo. Newsflash: south buffalo is not the center of the universe...

[WNYresident]

Lets not get nasty. :) This is a a discussion board to better WNY.


Martino and / or Schroder supporter

I got a little confused here... Martino wants or doesn't want a library?

[Unregistered]

I agree about South Buffalo. Hmmm, go to Catholic grammar school, then head off to Timon and then graduate to Civil Service University and work (well, c'mon, not really work) until you can collect the government pension.


Give me Jimmy?????? You can have him!!!

[Unregistered]

sean incorrectly indicated that I was a "Martino and / or Schroder supporter". I don't "support" them per se. If they agree with my opinion, thats fine. There is no political consipracy here - just a guy with an opinion.

[buffalofamily]

Martino flip flopped on th issue. In 2000 when consolidation plans failed, she promised to keep fighting for South Buffalo libraries. Now she all of a sudden thinks it's time for a change. She is so correct that it is time for a change. It's time for her to go!

[Unregistered]

I attended most of the meetings in 2000, and personally listened to almost 100% of those attending calling for saving ALL of the erie county libraries, not just their own. the person who keeps replying critically to saving our libraries keeps saying that we should come up with figures to prove that it is not wasted money to keep our existing branches open, but that's just the point. I have requested the library board, since 1998, when they spent $138,000 on consultants, to provide statistics on the costs of running our current system. They have refused for these 5 years. Maybe you should request them. After all, they run it, not the people you are talking to. We only pay for it. I can tell you this - our 52 Erie county libraries only cost about 2% of the entire erie county budget - a bargain that every single person in erie county can take advantage of. And the utilities for all 52 of the libraries amount to .38% of the entire BECPL (Buffalo&Erie county public library) system's budget. That is a tiny fraction, so I'd say it doesn't cost alot to run them, if that's any indication.
But you are talking about the least important part of the libraries. Our library system is a service, NOT a business. It is there to provide access to information to all - those who can afford to go to Borders, and those who can't. Our central library is our "superstore", the only one with research capability, and all of the rest, even Audubon, are like "convenience stores" - they are outposts of information, placed strategically for access along major transportation routes. Maybe you haven't heard about sprawl, and smart growth, but our 15 Buffalo libraries are a perfect model of smart growth. Buffalo's new master plan is supposed to follow the smart growth principles. In fact, Buffalo's libraries should be celebrated as examples of what Buffalo is already doing right in our plans to revitalize our liveable, walkable urban landscape, and should only be strengthened and improved, not closed! They are carefully place throughout Buffalo's neighborhoods, and in following with smart growth principles,"use public resources wisely", since they are placed on major public transportation corridors/bus routes, and the entire BECPL system accounts for only about 2% of Erie County's budget. They help "maintain a walkable environment" by providing services in the immediate neighborhood. They are a "common gathering place" which "provides both formal and informal gathering". Like I said, they are a model of smart growth. Whole states, like Pennsylvania and Maryland are buying into these philosophies, and Buffalo is actually doing this part of it right. Now, they have to follow the libraries example and do the rest of it right.
By the way, remember that the libraries threatened with closing are very successful libraries, as other writers have noted. Cazenovia is the 5th largest library in the city, with the largest meeting room space of all 15 (1250sqft). It is larger than 3 out of 4 of the newest suburban libraries. the two of them are open 7 days/week, 54hrs total. They total 23 public computers, over 43,000 books, over 43 parking spaces. I could go on and on. Both of them are extremely successful, in the top 4 of 15 libraries in book circulation - the BECPL's favourite measure of success, for many years. The more I read about it, the more convinced I am that they should be kept open and invested in.

[Allyssa]

For those who are stiil confused on the library issue, here are a few Lingering Questions to consider about the proposal:

1) Mark Schroder was quoted as saying “the only way to make this a countywide movement is to show people in at least one location that yes, this can work.” Is he talking about making a two-for-one (library) downscale work? And does he mean for all of Erie County... will this go on in other neighborhoods as well???

2) Even if there’s a $10 million dollar library built, how will this decrease of a PUBLIC facility benefit the public?

3) If this plan goes through, and all promises are kept the Cazenovia location will still have to have adequate accessibility for those with disabilities. If the building hasn’t been reconstructed with handicap conveniences by now, why would I believe it would be done for something else later?

4) A questionnaire handed out at the last public meeting that was filled with a series of “rating” Q&A. Like: How important do you believe service is to a library? With replies to circle such as: very important - somewhat important - a little important or not at all. To me, it’s like comparing children’s Tylenol to adult’s extra strength Advil when it’s a grown-up that has a headache. Yes, everyone wants good service wherever they go… and if the library proposal isn’t approved does this mean we will receive bad service at our neighborhood branch from here on out?

5) The only choice Mr. Giambra is giving the people is what’s unknown behind door number one, or door number two. Are we really going to give up two cars for a brand new blender? Mind you, Mr. Giambra hasn't shown up once to any of the "stacked" public meetings to hear what we have to say. And does he really care? ... Probably not, I guess his intentions are just to come here and wave a little money around for the "oooh's and awww's" then waltz out after the huge photo-op. Give me a break... I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses just so that he looks good.

6) Why is it such a need to break from traditions? What's wrong with tradition???? Why do they want to re-invent the wheel?

7) How much sense does it really make to turn a library into bookstore? Do they really think that at a place where books were once borrow for free the public would now have to pay for the books they want to read?

8) If South Buffalo is so deserving of a new library, why can’t it be given to the Old First Ward a place in our community that is without a public library?

9) Mr. Mahaney, the library system director said in one sentence that some areas of the city where libraries are situated don’t have the money to support them. Then he was quoted saying, “We don’t have to settle with what we have, we can have better”. That raises a red flag for some to wonder how a neighborhood like South Buffalo can support a $4 million library if what we do have is being questioned financially.

10) Mary Martino, City of Buffalo common council South District representative has the responsibilities to serve the residents of her area. Is she really thrusting a personal stance to this library design that doesn’t have total agreement from all within her district? Or can it just be that she's just jumped onto the ban-wagon with all the other politians that want to downscale the PUBLIC libraries?

Finally, South Buffalo has become the test market on this plan, if it doesn't work here then they'll go into another neighborhood and try it.... here's a tip.... they should go down to the neighborhoods throughout the city and county that really need a new library first, that is if their intentions are really "for the public".

~Allyssa

[Unregistered]

"6) Why is it such a need to break from traditions? What's wrong with tradition???? Why do they want to re-invent the wheel?"
Need I say anything to this?
In case you are not aware, your city is in municipal bankruptcy proceedings (CONTROL BOARD). The reason for this is your local government is incapable of cutting spending of any significance at all and has just about expended all of the taxing authority the state constitution allows.
The reason why the city cannot cut spending is every time a program is slated to be cut, the policitians are beat over the head by people like yourself who say "don't cut my ____" (fill in the blank for your pet program - i.e. LIBRARY). The state has recognized the problem and has come up with a solution. The solution is to take the power of managing the city finances away from the citizens until they are able to demonstrate that they cen elect responsible leadership. That's the real purpose of a control board.
It's not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. In 1995, Washington DC was taken over by a control board. At that time 1 out of 7 city residents were EMPLOYED by the city. Cutting any spending there was politically impossible too.
It's unfortunate that an entire city will have to be disenfranchised because they refuse to elect leaders who will make the nessessary and inevitable cuts.
When you say "Why do they want to re-invent the wheel?" you really make it easy for the state leadership to do something as draconian as appointing a control board.

[Allyssa]

I am under the impression that you're not from "our" area because you referred to the city as "your" (meaning mine) ... In case you are not aware, your city is in municipal bankruptcy proceedings (CONTROL BOARD). The reason for this is your local government is incapable of cutting spending of any significance at all

Let me give you the heads up... we did NOT ask for this reconstruction plan of the south Buffalo libraries... the B&ECPL board came to us flashing all of this money THEY want to spend.

Were trying just that... to stop the waistful spending!

The reason why the city cannot cut spending is every time a program is slated to be cut, the policitians are beat over the head by people like yourself who say "don't cut my LIBRARY".

People like myself want want to inform the public that ONE $4 million library will cost the TAXPAYERS more money to maintain than the TWO smaller self-suffiently running PUBLIC libraries branches that we have now.

Are you confused, the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library aren't the ones in need of a control board... it's the mayor, the County Executive, and governer of New York that has gotten the City of Buffalo into the shambles the ...We... are in! and besides, that's why we're against the waistful spending.

Are you a south Buffalo resident that is effected by this? Do you have children in the S. Park or Cazenovia area that will be forced out of YOUR neighborhood to visit the LOCAL library????

It would be different if WE went to the public library board and demaded a facility like Clarence has, the B&ECPL board came to us with this plan... not the other way around!!! You wanna preach about cost cutting and control board, fill your complaints in the mayor's ear and recognize that we, those oppossed to this library plan are trying to save what little we do have.

Perhaps you could begin another thread on your choice to voice about the city's bankruptcy problems because it didn't come from the people wanting to save two south Buffalo neighborhood libraries.

[Unregistered]

"I am under the impression that you're not from "our" area because you referred to the city as "your" (meaning mine) ... In case you are not aware, your city is in municipal bankruptcy proceedings (CONTROL BOARD). The reason for this is your local government is incapable of cutting spending of any significance at all "
The usage of the word "your" in intended to enforce a sense of onwership upon yourself, rather than "those politicians" running "the city". You are as responsible for what is occuring as much as anyone else. Even if I were from Brazil, whould that make my opinion any less valid?

"People like myself want want to inform the public that ONE $4 million library will cost the TAXPAYERS more money to maintain than the TWO smaller self-suffiently running PUBLIC libraries branches that we have now."
Again, we would see future labor cost savings, maintanence savings, etc... The general idea is to reduce the total number of libraries. What did the consultants say about your 2 libraries when they did the audit? If they recommended closure of 1 or more, why are they so wrong?

"it's the mayor, the County Executive, and governer of New York that has gotten the City of Buffalo into the shambles the ...We... are in! "
No, they are the people who have been put into office by the voters, who demand to hear what they want to hear. If there was a movement to begin wearing blue hats in public, you would soon start seeing politicians discussing the merits of blue hats and legislation enforcing blue hat wearing.... And what the politicians hear is "we're not ready to do serious budget cutting yet" from people like yourself.

"Do you have children in the S. Park or Cazenovia area that will be forced out of YOUR neighborhood to visit the LOCAL library???? "
You just disclosed that you have a personal stake in this proposed cutback. Every cutback will affect SOMEONE. To not cut back affects EVERYONE.

"Perhaps you could begin another thread on your choice to voice about the city's bankruptcy problems because it didn't come from the people wanting to save two south Buffalo neighborhood libraries. "
I get the impression that you don't want to listen to what I have to say any more. All you want is to keep your 2 libraries and go back to your life. Democray sure is hard work! Even if I were to go away, the problems would still be there. I remember when the library report first came out and everyone screamed in horror "not MY library!!" It was Giambras first test of his "consolidation" plans and the people rejected it completely. That was when I first realized that Buffalo was completely doomed. I do believe it will get worse before it gets better. We haven't hit "rock bottom" yet. But, if you focus on just your 2 libraries, you might hold on to them. But you may be moving 5 years from now, because your company that you work for might move or your neighboorhood will no longer be a nice place to live.

[WNYresident]

You know what the whole issue is here? We dont have actual numbers of each senario. New library/old libraries.

IF you noticed we never get "TRUE" numbers from those in power of what this stuff cost to keep open.

We can easily settle this:

We need the true cost of both libraries on paper.

Gas,electric,maintance budget,etc etc Plus any future items like roof, parking lot, etc etc

Then we need good estimates of what the one new library would cost. Gas, electric, maintance etc... INCLUDING the $4,000,000 it would cost to build it divided over the life of the library. Only in goverment will they spend $1,000,000 to save $20,000.

NO BS about someone buying the old libraries seeing that's a if come thing.

We COMPARE the numbers and decid. I can't see a new library saving tax people money seeing we will still have the labor running the library. THis is the arguement of a new building or not. Are they going to cut 1/2 of the staff of they close two and make one? Will the union allow that? If not then we may not save that much money so don't bother.

No one in this thread even knows how much these libraries cost and we are arguing over blind facts.

I'm not thrill seeing BIG giant libraries built on my dime especially when we pay top dollar to get them built.


Step one:

We need to gather the number including staff payroll.

We'll post it live so everyone in the community can see what we are argueing over. This is about money. Now if clarence or amherst use county money to make themselves awesome libraries perhaps it 's time to make the cuts there too.

Over all we need to cut cost but spending $4,000,000 or what ever it cost blindly is not wise.

Are there any business people other than my self reading this board? I mean people that have been in business for more than 5 years with a proven track record?

If we can get 4 or 5 of them togeather and then have some volunteers gather up what they need we can make comparision charts with true numbers.

You can't argue your case without real facts. $4,000,000 invested into two libraries could go a LONG way. Or perhaps it's money down the drain but we don't know.

So lets organize a group and send in a FOI of all money spent per library we have in question for the last 24 months. This includes payroll and if possible any BS patronage jobs that might be attached to those budgets.

[Unregistered]

Well Said!!!!
Still, my gut instinct tells me LESS libraries = less employess = less money. I'll bet the S. Buffalo people won't be thrilled about a full and complete analysis of ALL the factors that contribute to the total expenditures.... And the great thing about closing libraries is the union people won't have any place to go!!! Perhaps in a few years people will stop moving away (or even move back), tax revenue will go up, and there will once again be enough revenue to open up more new libraries if they are needed. But, the truth is the city is broke today and only extreme measures will fix that.

[Unregistered]

..taken from todays buffalo news front page article on the new control board...

"Over the long run, being on the board might win its members praise, but in the months and possibly years to come its members will likely make many enemies among union leaders, elected officials and neighborhood groups as they will be forced to trim city spending and force through unpopular decisions. "

This library issue is but one of a million "neighborhood group" issues that will have to be resolved one way or another. hopefully the control board will have the power and will to say "enough is enough" and do what needs to be done.

[Unregistered]

Amen. That is right on point. If the solutions that we need were popular, the politicians would have done them already.

The fact is city leadership is incapable of making tough decisions and the people of this city are incapable or unwilling to recognize that fundamental changes to the way services are provided are going to have to happen....period.

We can't continue to operate in the same manner...and that means being able to say that yes, closing two librarires for one makes sense in the long-run even if you have to walk a little further.

[buffalofamily]

Quote from an unregistered:

"Still, my gut instinct tells me LESS libraries = less employess = less money. "

This is not the case. The politicians and library officials are promising no cutting of staff in this consolidation. My gut instinct is if the were to cut staff, they would lose support of library workers. Even the library workers that are not for the plan are afraid to speak up. I know because I have spoke to them often.

BTW The unregistered posters should at least sign with a name or number or something, so we know which we are responding to. You still would not have to register but you could call your self unregistered a b or c or something. Just a suggestion that could keep some order to the posts.

Your neighbors - Buffalo Family

[buffalofamily]

BTW--The reuse of these buildings would still cost us money. The County legislator is proposing a museum at Cazenovia branch, the same building that is now a beautiful historic library. This would add to costs, because you would still have utilities, staff, and upkeep of Caz, Dudley and a big new library. This is true unless they just abondon these buildings like the police station on Seneca Street.

Buffalo Family--Your friendly neighbors

[Allyssa]

Originally posted by Unregistered
"Do you have children in the S. Park or Cazenovia area that will be forced out of YOUR neighborhood to visit the LOCAL library???? "
You just disclosed that you have a personal stake in this proposed cutback.

"I get the impression that you don't want to listen to what I have to say any more.

It was Giambras first test of his "consolidation" plans and the people rejected it completely.

First of all, I never disclosed a personal status to this library proposal… I asked the question to you; if you had children in the area. You assumed wrongly, my concern is for ALL of the children living in both of the neighborhoods. And for these children who have to walk and/or depend on a ride to and from the new library location no matter what the weather is like. As if children aren’t being “bussed” enough because their neighborhood schools are shutting down. I feel, it’s all the more reason to keep the libraries open in these neighborhoods because the schools are not.

Secondly, you assumed that I voted for these people that have been running the city of Buffalo into the dirt. Nor, do I demand to hear what I want to hear. You have a lot of assumptions for an “unregistered” user on this site.

I never expressed to diminish your opinions; I merely suggested that if you’re more concerned with the CONTROL BOARD that you should begin a separate thread on that issue in place of tying it to the library proposal. And I would like to stress one more time, the two south Buffalo libraries are NOT the financial difficulties of the entire city. Having these two small facilities open will not put the city further into debt… considering that fact that the B&ECPL (not the city) has $4 million to spend.

This consolidation proposal in South Buffalo is three years in the making, and Mr. Giambra hasn’t even showed up to any of the public meetings on this issue, how do you explain that? He’s all for a big push in closing in public libraries… and he can’t even show face to hold up his own defense!!! As far as your “blue hat” theory goes, I will not play follow the leader on something I don’t believe in… Because I’m an AMERICAN! And the politicians only listen to those whom follow their opinions. If you (not you personally) are against their shady plans then it’s like you don’t even exist.

And lastly, if you were really from Brazil you wouldn’t just jump into the deep-end of the pool on your first day of swimming class. You seem to be well versed in rebutting whatever someone says that doesn’t coincides with your opinion. And guess that’s what this forum is all about… finding different viewpoints from concerned western New Yorkers that have issues in their neighborhood other than Brazil!

[Unregistered]

"And I would like to stress one more time, the two south Buffalo libraries are NOT the financial difficulties of the entire city. Having these two small facilities open will not put the city further into debt…"
And that one extra patronage job is NOT the financial difficulties of the entire city.
And that one cop car with two cops in it on Hertle ave at 2 in the afternoom on wedensday is NOT the financial difficulties of the entire city.....
And on and on and on and on and......

You're saying "just let us keep OUR little bit of excess - it's but a drop in the bucket!". It's because you hold your drop more dear than other peoples drops. Guess what - Nobody wants to lose their little drops. What do you get? a whole bucketful of municipal debt. Its sucks but that's the way it is. The cold hard truth. The reason why schools are closing is because people of childbearing age are moving way. Why is that.........?

[Allyssa]

The schools aren't closing because there are less students, it's because the Buffalo public school system is just as broke as the city is.

No, I'm saying just as much you are about the waistful spending.
South Buffalo doesn't need a $4 million library and they're pushing for it anyway.... is that not also municipal debt that is mounting?

Read my typing... we don't want it, we don't need it. Call me selfish, but I keep asking why this new library can't be given to a neighborhood that really, really needs one. It's like going to a soup kitchen when someone has cupboards full of food at home. I guess you're right... "I hold my drops more dear than other people's drops"

Besides, if it weren't for our little drops then we'd have nothing at all. That is until someone comes along and kicks the bucket over; then the things a person beleives most in are spilled out into the street and down the drain... like I said, if you don't agree with the politicians it's like you don't even exist! because the drops that mean the most to a person is kicked to the curb as if it were trash.

[Unregistered]

"The schools aren't closing because there are less students, it's because the Buffalo public school system is just as broke as the city is. "
Absolulty not true - the city has been losing population (and students) for decades and the rate of loss has accelerated dramatically in the last 10 years.

"why this new library can't be given to a neighborhood that really, really needs one. "
Show me any point in the city that actually has people living in it (i.e. not places like fhurmann blvd no-mans-land) that DOES NOT have a library more than 3/4 of a mile away. That is, if you drew a red circle 3/4 mile from every library and filled it in on a map, there would be NO area not red in Buffalo. I'd say (and the consultants did too) that in fact buffalo has surplus of libraries for a city its size. I'd say close one of the 2 s. buffalo libraries and don't build a new one anywhere. Close a lot of others too.

[Unregistered]

"Besides, if it weren't for our little drops then we'd have nothing at all. "
What???
What you have is what you produce. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless you live in an area where you expect other peoples fruits of their labor to br redistrubuted to you by the government.

[Allyssa]

I'd say (and the consultants did too) that in fact buffalo has surplus of libraries for a city its size. I'd say close one of the 2 s. buffalo libraries and don't build a new one anywhere. Close a lot of others too.

And who exactly are these consultants??? Schroder, Martino or the B&ECPL system? Gimme some names to support this consultant refference ... that aren't political officials.

What you have is what you produce. Well I know I'm not trying to produce something that isn't needed!

I believe you are refering to the amount of population that has left the area including students more than what I originally said... schools are closing because there isn't enough money to support them. I'll give you a perfect example, Kensington HS had about 200 (est)enrolled this year... are you saying that all of them students are moving over the summer and that is why the legendary school decided to suspend services?

[Unregistered]

If Buffalo closed just one library that would still leave one out of walking distance. Which one would you close ? Build a new library and get on with the 21 century already. Is that not part of the city's and county's set backs ? Always looking to keep the status quo. You people are like sheep , you follow these Martino's because they are liberal democrates , then they take you out to slaughter. Wisen up and see who you are voting for, do a little research into this persons backround. That is why we have a C average basketball player as mayor. If you took this time we would most likly not be having this discussion.




Or maybe we are being dumbed down by all the toxic waste we are living on in our new low income housing.


Does this site have a spell check because some of you need to use it.

[Unregistered]

"And who exactly are these consultants??? Schroder, Martino or the B&ECPL system? Gimme some names to support this consultant refference ... that aren't political officials. "
The outside consulting firm that did the audit that started the whole library consolidation effort.

"Well I know I'm not trying to produce something that isn't needed!"
Well, I guess we can't depend on you to produce anything more that you consume. If we all operated like that, we'd all be dirt poor.

"I'll give you a perfect example, Kensington HS had about 200 (est)enrolled this year... are you saying that all of them students are moving over the summer and that is why the legendary school decided to suspend services?"
It should have closed when the enrollment dipped below 350! It's a giant costly building in the middle of a ghetto. How do I know this? I used to live on Bailey AND I worked in Kenfield/Langfield projects for 2 years. Legendary? My mother in law went there in the 60's when it was nice. It is now a total dump. Close it. Holding on to sentment of yesteryear will only make the city more broke.

[WNYresident]

I'll ahve to see if theres a spell check.. I type badly :)

[Allyssa]

Just what I like to hear... an outsider coming in to do all of the work that the B&ECPL is incapable of doing themselves.

And, Hmm, if you really knew there was an outside consultant firm then you must know more about this than what you're letting on. How sweet it is to have the inside track... and perhaps you're the one with the "persoanl stake" in the push to close two libraries.

And just so that you know, that "ghetto" that you call it is still part of the city. They are still living, breathing Buffalo residents. And I suppose you beleive the Filmore district aren't deserving of a new, modern library???? hmm?

Holding on to sentment of yesteryear will only make the city more broke.
How can you be sure I'm holding on to it... I was giving you an example to rebutt your
"the city has been losing population (and students) for decades" theory.

Ya know what? Perhaps you'll be the one we all call to turn out the lights when the entire city closes since you're so in favor of shutting everything down.


I guess we can't depend on you to produce anything more that you consume.
I'm just consume what was already there.... I'm not the one trying to CONSUME a 4 MILLION DOLLAR LIBRARY!

[Unregistered]

I'll gladly consume a 4 million dollar library. South Buffalo is turning into a getto itself. Take a look around,a little stroll.
Anything that will keep my part of the city looking nice I am all for it. Just as long as they do something with the old buildings.

South Buffalo is one of the only districts putting money into the city. It is one of the only districts that the home owners keep up their houses and therefore property values. I would look at it like a gift for all the outstanding service the South district has give to the city. Trying to keep it beautiful and prosporus.

Give me a 4 million dollar library where I know it will be used. Not on Jefferson where it can be spray painted.

[Unregistered]

"the city has been losing population (and students) for decades" theory.


Fact.
From the U.S. Census Bureau. That's why they count all the people every 10 years...

[Unregistered]

"How sweet it is to have the inside track..."

It was in all the media from the day it was released. I guess reading the paper actually gives me an unfair advantage.

[Unregistered]

Just what I like to hear... an outsider coming in to do all of the work that the B&ECPL is incapable of doing themselves.

"outsider"...

Every time I hear someone using that word in a context like that I can't help but think of a toothless redneck - as in:
"We don't need no outsider yankees comin' down here tellin' us what to do with our negroes!!!"

Are you afraid of "outsiders"? Why is that.....?

[WNYresident]

Your twisting the context of the term "outsider". We have had so many outsiders helping as consultants from all the studies they have you think by now we would be a top notch community.

[Allyssa]

South Buffalo is turning into a getto itself. ...South Buffalo is one of the only districts putting money into the city ... Not on Jefferson where it can be spray painted.

I guess a new library in South Buffalo will be stray painted too then... if it's your words saying that South Buffalo is turning into a getto itself.



South Buffalo is one of the only districts putting money into the city
... we may as well call up the Seneca's to have their new casino built in South Buffalo as well.

The filmore district LIBRARY BUILDING (the actual structure) is no different than the Cazenovia or Dudley BUILDING... it's the people in the communities that you are so Prejudiced against.

You preach about the debt and the importance of a control board helping the city out of the financial difficulties and yet you'd gladly push for a new $4 million library... that's a contradiction if I've ever heard one!!!


It was in all the media from the day it was released. I guess reading the paper actually gives me an unfair advantage.
Oh, you must be referring to the articles in the Buffalo News that have sucked up to the POLITICIANS that are pushing to shut down two sufficiently runnning library facilities.

Are you afraid of "outsiders"? Why is that.....?
I never said I was afraid of an outside consultant coming in... but I am afraid of people like you who can't help but think of a toothless redneck We don't need no outsider yankees comin' down here tellin' us what to do with our negroes!!!

Why is it that you think the "Negroes" and "Ghetto" residents do deserve anything new, better and above all... support.

[Allyssa]

Why is it that you think the "Negroes" and "Ghetto" residents DON'T deserve anything new, better and above all... support.

[Unregistered]

Oh, you must be referring to the articles in the Buffalo News that have sucked up to the POLITICIANS that are pushing to shut down two sufficiently runnning library facilities.
Yes, the Buffalo News is part of vast consipracy with the politicians to destroy everything you hold dear. Funny that everyone who disagrees with you is in cahoots.


"Why is it that you think the "Negroes" and "Ghetto" residents do deserve anything new, better and above all... support."
Clearly, Since I used to live on Bailey I have a much better understanding and sympathy for the plight of Buffalo African-Americans. I can't say the same about lily-white South Buffalo.

[Unregistered]

We are going off topic here..

THIS ARGUEMENT is an arguement is based on the money spent or being spent, not who is getting the money at this time.

THere are NO jobs here to support the lower class to begin with and then offseting that fact with the high taxes over all you have the issues WNY has now.

YOU know who i want on the control board? OLD POLISH LADIES . They seem to be the cheapest around.

YOu know what i just heard today!?

Some unions have on the slate gambling rehab to be added to thier health care coverage? Could this be a lie? a rumor? or truth?

[Unregistered]

I"d rather see 1 million spent on a non descript library in an area that doesn't have one. We dont need to over build a building that will last 30 years.

Over all though the areas that need changing are not the libraries but the system it's self.

They throw at the residents changes they don't want change, while not making changes that would help that area more

[Unregistered]

"YOU know who i want on the control board? OLD POLISH LADIES . They seem to be the cheapest around. "

The control board members are drawing no salary or compensation whatsoever. FYI.

[Unregistered]

OH i know they are not getting paid. It's honorable that they are not.

I was refering to cheap as in, this is all we can pay you from now on. Cheap in that sense, not that they would cost us anything.

I wouldn't mind paying them acutally if they are truely working for the good of WNY, not just some other way to keep the mess going.

[buffalofamily]

The B&ECPL is renovating the Central library for $5.1 million, including turning the childrens room into a "park" with fake trees and benches. CAZENOVIA has Real trees and benches and a whole park to enjoy right outside the door!

We need someone in office to step in and clean out the B&ECPL board. They are the vehicles of foolish political "self interest".

Happy Birthday USA

Buffalo family

[Unregistered]

YOu have to be joking? YOu mean they are recreating a PARK inside the library? Where the hell do we find these people? Oh that's right, it's uncle politicians brother-inlaw. Mcdonalds couldn't do anything with him so they found them a job in civil service.

you ever wonder why they good goverment employees allow all this patronage and stupid crap to happen. It reflects badly over the whole system and you know they are all not bad.

[Allyssa]

I found within the GUIDELINES FOR NEW LIBRARY CONSTRUCTION, the B&ECPL can’t approve any proposed project that might enhance the quality of library service in one area at the expense of another. This is a contradiction to the Buffalo and Erie County Public Library’s own rules because the new library proposed in South Buffalo will be centered primarily in one neighborhood more than the other. Which community will lose out?

Also, according to the proposal, the new library will have approx. 12,000 square feet of space. However, according to the B&ECPL figures: One acre equals 43,560 square feet. So, if the new library is constructed exactly at 12,000 sq. feet the B&ECPL’s “New Library Construction Parameter Guidelines” says that the Minimum site size for 12,000 sq. feet is equal to 1.1 acres.

A difference of 31,560+ square feet will be remaining; that’s more than double the sq. feet of the actual proposed size of the new library. Are they saying that we’ll have more space available outside of the building than inside? Where will they find more than 44,000 square feet of land to construct this new building?

Finally, this size is nowhere near the square footage in Clarence, and yet they’re using the new Clarence Branch as the example to sell this idea.

*This information was obtainable through the Buffalo and Erie County Public Library’s website.

[Unregistered]

This is planet earth calling Allyssa!....

What they are referring to is the size of the lot vs. the size of the building itself. Yes the lot itself will be 1.1 acres. This is probably required for the PARKING LOT. The B&ECPL put that in their guidelines for some asinine reason, because it probably mirrors what is in the city/county building codes anyway. Look around you - retail building parking lots are usually larger than the building itself, and sidewalks etc come into play as well. Perhaps you don't own a car, so you don't notice things like that.

"Where will they find more than 44,000 square feet of land to construct this new building?"
from what i see, there's vacant land all over the city. In fact, the city itself probably already owns several lots of that size obtained from tax forclosure proceedings.

Simple answers to simple questions.

[Unregistered]

I was at the Caz Branch just a few days ago and couldn’t believe my eyes, there was a whole section of the library filled with “books on tape” in hard shell VHS cases. For each of the cases there could be 5-7 books fit into their place easily. This is not just one shelf; this is an entire section of about 5 of 6 (almost to the ceiling) shelving units. Maybe the circulation is down at this branch because there aren’t as many books to circulate. I also noticed many of the other sections that have far less books than before. Maybe they’re psychologically trying to make people think a new library is needed; by decreasing the amount of books they carry. Or maybe they are trying to get people to listen more than read. I live on the East Side and visit the Caz from time to time, but I have been following this story because there are rumors that the library board is going to try the consolidation plans in our community as well. Keep on fighting this plan… really, not just for your neighborhood, but also for all of them in the city. The people need a library in their community.

[Allyssa]

do you mean to tell me that they're going to need more than twice as much space for a parking lot??? This isn't a walmart going up, it's a public library that attracts more walking patrons than drivers. I'd also note that there aren't many empty lots available to fit the 1.1 acre required where they want to build it.

"there's vacant land all over the city"
keep your eye on the ball, we're talking about space at a proposed location in SOUTH BUFFALO, not all over the city.

... And simple response from a simple "unregistered" users. Welcome to the planet with a ....NAME!!!!!

[WNYresident]

Lets not make fun of those without names. WOUld be nice to easily follow ones opinions though.

Would be nice to see one politician really register with thier name. THey'd be afraid they publicly lose an argue on a open forum.

We should make from now on just open debates of the local leaders and the people that want to run agasint them and record it.. Then when more promises are broken we just reply the tapes :)

[Allyssa]

I totally agree!

[WNYresident]

Exactly who would build the library?

DO they bid it out in a fair open bid? or are there union labor agreements?

Weren't they talking about labor agreements about a new court house or something being built in the city buffalo?

They said it would cost a million more using the unions? I'm surprized they would waste money like that. That $1,000,000 would be $1 buck back for each 1,000,000 residents in erie county. Wouldn't you rather keep your buck in your pocket not theres?

A buck here and a buck there, before you know it you have a pocket full of money.

Does the county push projects though to keep the labor unions working? No work, no paychecks, no votes...?

:p

[Unregistered]

"do you mean to tell me that they're going to need more than twice as much space for a parking lot???"
Yes!!!!! go to any retail/public building with a tape measure, paper, pencil, & calculator and figure it out yourself. The parking lot is usually a lot larger in area than the building itself. That's because cars are a lot bigger than people - a standard parking space is 9 x 18 = 162 square feet. It just doesn't "look" as big because the lot is flat while the building stands up and captures your attention. I'd recommend geometry at ECC for you too.

" it's a public library that attracts more walking patrons than drivers."
theres no provision in the building codes for your opinion on who's driving - the city wants all new buildings to have their own parking to relieve street parking congestion, a big problem especially in the winter months.

"Would be nice to see one politician really register with thier name. "
I not sure, but i *think* i was just accused of being a politician incognito. I can assure you that I am not. I woundn't last a second as one - my point of view would offend the majority of my constituents and I'd be removed from office :)

[Unregistered]

P.S.

"from what i see, there's vacant land all over the city."
would imply that there's vacant land in YOUR part of the city...

[Allyssa]

In 2000 the B&ECPL system proposed (at first) a consolidation plan to close Cazenovia all together, but when all of the residents came out and spoke against it, the plans were set on the back burner for a while. Then last year, they cooked up a new proposal that included closing Cazenovia And the Dudley Branch as well with the promise of one new library. When too many residents spoke out about that notion, that's when they called in the politicians to help. There's Mr. Giambra that didn't come to any of the public meetings to hear both sides. There's Mark Schroder who appears more in fovor of promoting a GED class in South Buffalo than he is on speaking out about keeping the Buffalo Public Schools open in this community. Mary Martino who in 2000 was against closing one library in her district, but is now in favor of closing TWO.
These are the top political officials that are pushing with the B&ECPL system to build a new one, that in no way will compare to the Clarence branch. They're considering constructing this new branch in only one of the communities, leaving the other "high n dry". I haven't heard anything about union labor agreements, and there's nothing written on paper about what the entine library details... no sketches of a design, no set location, no rundown of cost or anything. Just a bunch of politicians awaiting a photo-op.

[Allyssa]

Ya know what, I'm not even going to consider your responses any more... the word twisting and spin-offs are not worth my time. You have a hard time in dealing with the fact that people don't see things the way you want them to... that's called "Being controlling" and you will take every word a person says and nit-pick it apart. maybe you yourself can inquire about a course at ECC on personality & the offsets of being argumentative.

Last time I checked this is an open forum for people to state their opinions... but you have gone way overboard and I just won't consider your "UNREGISTERED" opinions anymore.

[Unregistered]

Well, you have the right to be frustrated if people don't agree with you. Differing opinions are fine for matters of little consequence, like if the Bills are going to make the playoffs or not. The problem with your opinions on matters of public expenditures is that it seems that other people agree with you, and that kind of thinking has destroyed the western new york economy.
The problem with being a liberal is that you always have those geeky types pestering you with annoying things like "facts" and "balance sheets". You can certianly choose to ignore me - that is your right. The New York State assembly, senate, and governer have chosen to ignore you by removing your locally elected leadership from any real decision making and appointing a control board.
It's an ironic new twist on the popular liberal refrain: "Hello, we're from the government, and we're here to help you." :)

[Unregistered]

one other thing - how does the saying go..."don't discuss politics or religion in polite company"? I assumed we wern't in polite company. You must feel the same :)

[Allyssa]

Well then I guess I don't belong here.

[WNYresident]

People People People,

Of course you will have people twisting the true or massaging the facts for thier advantage.

Allyssa, what you see on this board is nothing compared to what goes on in our local politics and state politics. I would like you to learn from what we read on this board because it is a LOT worse the deeper you get into politics.

Yes you do belong here! I'm one of those geeky types that like facts and balance sheets. The reason why is there someone out there paying for those balance sheets. Encase the local politico's don't know, there isn't a money tree in each of our back yards.

I can't believe the amount of money they churn through with so little to show for it.

As with the library, I can't see $4,000,000 spent if we are not going to see savings.

When they all throw at us consolidate, why can't they consolidate thier departments first before touching what the communities have. I would like to see an across the board politicians pay cut. If you are earning over $60000 or more there's a imeditate 25% cut. No whining, crying or anything. And as far as insurance goes they are given the average package. NOT the plantium coverage plan. Most business people don't have that why should they.

Good thing this is the USA and we can all have our own opinions. :)

You keep doing your home work allyssa, if you truly believe in something you fight for it.

[buffalofamily]

WNYresident,

Thank you!

I spoke with a large group of South Buffalo residents at a 4th. of July Independence Day party and found all of them against the "NEW" library deal. THEY DON'T WANT MILLIONS SPENT when a much smaller amount could improve the neighborhood. These folks were Democrats, Republicans and Independents! WOW! All of us agreeing that government officials are out of control with this absured idea.

The big question around here is WHY???

It won't save any money. It cuts access to half the area. Is it just politics?

Buffalo family -- Waking up South Buffalo, one family at a time!

[WNYresident]

Some developer will make money on building the structure. No building, no profits... get it? The developers pay in contributions for thier races in turn to get permits and things built.

You know what i'd love to know.. why are the roads built so crappy. You think by now they'd build something cost effective. I see union redone every 10 years or so.... The 90 is always being worked on... Makes you wonder if projects get pushed through to keep the boys working at the expense of the tax payer. You don't mind a little but I think it's out of hand.

I mean why else would they do what they do? There has to be a reason.

They just created so many layers, so much churn.. etc You want a good economy, let the people spend the money how they want to, not the politicians. They just hand it away for votes.

[buffalofamily]

WNYresident,

I hear you loud and clear! How many South Buffalo residents will be employed by this type of project? The last big construction project here was the senior housing at Seneca St. & Cazenovia St.. The workers were all from outside the area. Some were from out of state.

They are calling this type of project economic developement! It's not the real type of investment we need here. South Buffalo needs smaller specility type businesses. We need a place where we can get fresh foods, clothing, shoes, appliances, coffee shop etc.

They better wake up before more rip off "rent to own" slum businesses open up here.

Buffalo family

[WNYresident]

A politician might invest in those rent to owns.. ;)

[buffalofamily]

Just got back from the Dudley branch. We had a great time talking to folks and gathering petition signatures to save the South Buffalo Libraries.

What we found, as always, is a successful busy branch library that most residents walked to. Let's not ruin this wonderful library! Almost everyone we spoke with was in favor of saving the Libraries. Many parents that live in that area are afraid of losing their library. They visit it often and beleive it serves the community well.

The tide is turning! South Buffalo is fighting back!

Buffalo family

[WNYresident]

We need some photos of the place. NOT staged photo's that show 200 people cramed into the building ether.

:)

We need to show other people what they will lay to waste to just spend $4,000,000 on a new one. Look at the payback time it would take to just offset the $4,000,000 versus what the building cost now.

[buffalofamily]

Let's see if this works:

[buffalofamily]

And this:

[WNYresident]

Anyone have the:

square footage of each library

monthly gas/electric

last 2 years of maintance cost

shelf footage to figure out how many book each holds

Average foot traffic a week

etc?

We need to compare these number against what the new library will cost. We can compare numbers and factor in the blowing of $4,000,000... that's a lot of money.

[buffalofamily]

WNYresident,

I have some of the stats, and I'm researching some exact operating expenses for each.

Cazenovia Branch Library 8,900 sq. ft.
Meeting room 1,250 for over 84 people

Dudley Branch Library 6,762 sq. ft.
Meeting room for 48 people

Proposed new library - no info given


BOOKS:

Cazenovia & Dudley have 43,581 books (with many empty shelves)
In 1986 they had over 51,000 books. So we can figure existing room for 7,419 more books before we start hitting capacity!

COMPUTERS:

Cazenovia has 12 computers (all updated)

Dudley has 11 computers (all updated)

Both have room for more. Much space is wasted.

Both Dudley and Cazenovia are in the top 4 of 15 Buffalo libraries in book circulation.

I'm looking up facts and other interesting stats. The more I find out, the more I appreciate these neighborhood treasures!

Buffalo family -- stay tuned

[buffalofamily]

Caz

[buffalofamily]

Caz addition to Caz in the 1960's

[WNYresident]

I looked over the budget that was posted but i can't seem to figure out what was spent on utility cost per library. We need to calculate the two libraries versus the one new one.

No reason to spend $4,000,000 to save $2000 a month. We can save lots of wear and tear and just bank the $4,000,000

[Allyssa]

WNYresident,

the Buffalo and Erie County Public Library makes it difficult to decifer what funds go where and how much is a broken down percentage for what.

[buffalofamily]

WHY IS SAVING THE LIBRARIES IMPORTANT ? (for more info. call 825-4174)

1. "Investing in education" - Our current public library system is our best source of equitable self-education, and a valuable resource to our school systems. How will our life-long learners that do not attend school continue to learn about environmental issues without accessible libraries? Where will our kids go to get homework help?
2. "Containing sprawl & revitalizing our cities" - If Buffalo libraries are closed, our city neighborhoods will suffer a loss of quality of life, probably increasing flight from the city (sprawl) to the suburbs, to our rapidly disappearing rural landscape, or out of the area, shrinking our tax rolls. Enlightened communities around the country are becoming part of a pro-neighborhood, anti-sprawl movement, while our library system is proposing moving in the opposite direction!
3. "Preserving neighborhoods" - With TWO Buffalo libraries slated to close to open ONE (and more threatened), neighborhoods are being threatened with a loss of quality of life. A library that is open is an asset to the community - a library that is closed is a detriment to the community.
4. "Keeping libraries accessible" - Information is for everyone! Neighborhood libraries are outposts of information, like convenience stores - not superstores. If libraries are not accessible, their services do no good. According to WNY transportation experts, 40% of ADULTS in Buffalo have no access to cars. (That’s not counting all the children who don’t.)
5. "Strengthening recycling" - Our current public library system is a model of reuse and recycling - millions of books are used hundreds, even thousands of times, then, even when they’re determined to be outdated, they are put up for sale to the public at nominal prices. That’s a hard act to follow
6. . We believe in "fighting racism, sexism, ageism" - Our current public libraries are equal opportunity services open to all. If Buffalo libraries close, many in those neighborhoods will not get that equal opportunity to access information.
7. "Decentralization" - The Erie County Library Board’s (BECPL’s) move to close 2 neighborhood libraries is the opposite - centralization/consolidation.
8. "Grassroots democracy" - All suburban libraries have their own boards, and contracts with the BECPL, so they make many of their own decisions. The Buffalo libraries already have lost that power, having no board or contract, and are often thought to be the "poor relations" of our suburban libraries.
9. "Supporting mass transit" - Most, if not all current libraries are on well-used public transportation routes and placed in residential neighborhoods where many walk or bike to them. Forcing people to get into cars to go to "centralized" libraries is unenvironmental.
10. "Social & economic justice" - Many library users in Buffalo, including children, would not be able to access a library if their neighborhood library was closed. If they could, it would be an added financial burden many will not be able to afford - to get to and from a "centralized" library outside of their safe neighborhood. Instead of walking to their neighborhood library at NO COST, a family of 5 (2 parents, 1 child over 12, and 2 children 5- 11) would pay $11.60 round-trip for the privilege of visiting the library, (assuming they could get to it, since crosstown buses have been cut)! It is also an unfair double standard to replace suburban libraries ONE for ONE, while consolidating Buffalo libraries by closing TWO or more to open ONE.

[WNYresident]

I bet if we go through some top officials perks and pays we can easily keep a few extra libraries open.

Look how we can easily save one persons payroll. We cut the mayor of buffalo pay to $85,000 and presto $42,000 in savings. Thats one fireman, police or librarian.

We do this throughout the system and you'll be surprized how many more people we will have working for us that acutally do something other than studies and meetings.

This could apply to all supervisors and or department heads that steal overtime versus doing the job the way they should. This will apply to all elected officials.

I think it's time the people that pay the bills put thier foot down.

[WNYresident]

Is there a core group of people heading up the South Buffalo Library Issue?

[buffalofamily]

The "Save Our Libraries" group is the main core group. Many block clubs, churches, school groups and community groups are fighting against the new proposed consolidation.

Many Griffin supporters are on board as well. It's a hard fight against the Giambra deal.

BF

[WNYresident]

Giambra is nobody..

He's just a civil servant that talked his way into getting elected. You must learn a lot of these elected officials couldn't operate out of thier enviroment so they have to stay in the political circles. I dont' know him personally but over all I don't see much good coming out of hte county system. He started his own little crony group the moment he got elected anyhow so go figure.

Most likely now he's controled by someone higher than him. Someone mentioned a good reason he might want to close the ECC campuses is to allow his developer buddies to get thier hands on the land. Sad if that has any bearing on his decisions.

People, we have a LOT of work to do to correct all the wrongs the politicians and developers have done to WNY. :)

[buffalofamily]

Giambra is nobody..

TRUE, but he's got the Library board and 3 South Buffalo Politicians pushing this "multi-million dollar county capital project in South Buffalo..." for his buddies.

[WNYresident]

Hasn't happened yet.

[BuffaloRepublic]

why save libraries...can anyone in buffalo read......not unuion people..they can only whine...not politions...they can only lie.............not residents......they refuse to do anything about anything.......Buffalo...the city of little people making a lot of noise

[Allyssa]

What about ...

America, the land of the free
And the home of the waste....

wasteful government spending, wasteful land use space, wasteful political pushes.


not residents......they refuse to do anything about anything

not entirely true, I refuse to lay down and play dead
to the tricks the politicians are playing on the residents in SB.

[WNYresident]

Don't forget there's a Erie County library Board meeting this thursday at 4 p.m. at the Erie County library. Be there if you have questions reguarding the Cas/Dudley Library.

[Curmudgeon]

in regards to the article form speakupwny...

<<<A quote from the current circulated flier in South Buffalo…
"If the present financial difficulties continue, it is possible that in a number of years one of the existing libraries may be closed anyway. If that happens, and if we do not build a new library now, we in South Buffalo may have one less library with nothing to show for it, as opposed to having a larger, better, newer library.”

Liz Berry said plainly, “This is a hollow, hollow threat.” >>>

In a year or two when one of the two libraries are closed and you have one old small library, you can thank Ms. Berry for not blinking....

[Allyssa]

crum,
I have a copy of that flier; it was mailed to me and that section it is kind of threatening

I'll explain why. first of all... Ms. Berry is right; the flier is being passed out from the library officials... and there's no B&ECPL logo to verify it's the library's material. It's like a bootleg NIKE t-shirt.

this is the way I see things, I know we don't agree on that... but I'm going to explain my opinion anyways.

From the quote...
"If the present financial difficulties continue, it is possible that in a number of years (financial difficulties the B&ECPL won't state when asked repeatedly and there's a hypothetical 'possible' as to when or even 'if'-- see the first word that starts this quote?) one of the existing libraries may be closed anyway (hypothetical 'may'). If that happens, and if we do not build a new library now (notice the two 'if' used? who exactly is the 'we'? Why would South Buffalo be the biggest concern to the Library system? What's the hurry, and why does it have to be now?), we in South Buffalo may (again a hypothetical 'may') have one less library with nothing to show for it (we in South Buffalo will still have two to show for it becasue it won't take $4 million or $2.5 million to maintain the two libraries now), as opposed to having a larger, better, (could be that it's the Library's own neglect that has them seeing a need for something 'better') newer library.”

Color me blind, but sometimes reading between the lines is better seen high-lighted.

BTW- Did you happen to see in the article that other areas have also stood up against the consolidation? And that the proposal to build the new N. Jefferson library is coming up short? "IF" that's the case there, how long will it take to come up with millions to build one new one in South Buffalo?

[Allyssa]

one other thing....

did you happen to see what's at the bottom of the image of the article? A box that says Library comments... kind of hard to see but it gives the names of the common council rep, Mary Martino and Erie County Legislator, Mark Schreoder with their phone numbers to call.

Why doesn't it have a phone number to the B&ECPL?

I think that flier is library bootlegging from the county legislator's office.

[Allyssa]

And let's say... just for the sake of arguements, IF the financial difficulties change for the better and the B&ECPL find a surplus of funds in their accounts... will it mean libraries that were once consolidated will be reopened for use?

of course not. this is the "powers that be" looking to shut libraries down by claiming financial struggles like the rest of Buffalo.

seems like a classic case of "jumping on the band wagon"

[Curmudgeon]

o-key-doke...

take your chances. But, considering that things have gotten steadily worse for at least twenty years, your hoping on better times seem like wishful thinking to me. I don't see it happening though. I see one library for SB - it can be an old one or a new one - your choice... The money just ain't there for two.

[WNYresident]

Stick with two old ones or one old one. Why spend money for a new one. If what you have is fine don't upgrade.

Plus we haven't seen any numbers in writing where as we would save money. THe arguement of get it while you can doesn't hold water in my book. If you don't need it you don't buy it.

[Allyssa]

That’s just it Crum; we never asked for two new libraries. We didn’t even ask for the one that is currently being proposed now. It’s simple; they obtained money from somewhere that is burning a whole in their pocket.

“If it ain’t broke… don’t fix it” isn’t that the way the saying goes?

Why do we have to accept a plan we didn’t request from the B&ECPL?
This is a proposal the politicians came in with.

Which makes more sense?

a)Spending millions of dollars to construct one new library + the maintenance costs for existing branches.

OR…

b)Spend millions throughout all the libraries in Erie County + the maintenance costs for existing branches.

You see, there is no calculation of (actual) savings with an amount of $2.5 - $4 million taxpayers’ dollars. There’s nothing wrong with keeping things the same as compared to spend millions of dollars for one thing the politicians want here.

You constantly talk about how the control board is going to discontinue all resources that are unnecessary… wouldn’t it novel for them to look at the B&ECPL system trying to spend millions of dollars for one building???

These are all things I’ve said before … here’s a tip, next time you’re in town go to the libraries here, physically get out of your car and see for yourself that there’s nothing wrong with these two libraries instead of just driving right by and judging from "a far".

“Seeing is believing” I think that’s a good phrase to consider as well.

[Allyssa]

If what you have is fine don't upgrade.
WNYresident,
or just upgrade what you already have instead of spending millions to replace.

like a computer... if you have room to upgrade the hard drive, why would a person just leave it sit in the corner and go out to buy a brand new one for thousands of dollars that has less features than the first one?
Because it claims to be "newer and better"?
because it has slighlty more space?
or how "nice" it will look on a desk?

Is it possible for someone to see that a little improvement for less money can go a lot further than "out with it 'cuz it's old"?

It should been seem more for the inner-workings.

[WNYresident]

Becasue these little specks.. Thats what i consider some of these polticians like to go to the ribbon cuttings. Plus theres some developer that wants to build that new library and make as much money off of it as possible.

Let me build your library and i'll "donate" moeny so you can run again next year.

who are they fooling.

[Allyssa]

I saw on the news that the Marilla town board was also presented with a library consolidation proposal by Joel Giambra... they said "no" too. How long will it take before the library board sees that the people (all over ERIE COUNTY) don't want the libraries consolidated?

[Allyssa]

Article pulled from the East Aurora Advertiser

MARILLA OFFICIALS: DON"T CLOSE OUR LIBRARY
BY PAT McDONNELL August 28, 2003

The Marilla Town Board has showed no interest in closing the Marilla Free Library in order to open a larger regional library. Erie County Executive Joel A. Giambra said if smaller libraries were closed, the county would build a new, bigger modern library. Giambra was not specific about where this proposed new library would be built, or in what town.

"As our library buildings have aged, it has become more and more apparent that without action, our existing structure is destined to become obsolete," he wrote Supervisor John Foss in a June 6 letter. He encouraged Marilla officials to visit some of the more modern libraries in the Erie County system, such as Clarence, Collins and Audubon. "You'll see firsthand how communities have designed unique buildings that met their constituent's demands for full service, modern libraries," Giambra wrote.

Foss remained unconvinced at the August 11 Town Board meeting, saying only that "we just renovated" the Marilla Free Library.

[Curmudgeon]

You're not alone - people in Mariila are as selfish and irresponsible as you!

If the Marilla town board wants a library so bad, they are completely free to open up their own, and pay for it with Town of Marilla taxes. There is no rule that says the county library system has a monopoly on library operation. While we're at it, why don't you open up your own library and operate it as a charity?

[Allyssa]

Crum,
I don't think you're seeing the big picture.... This is all about "POLITICAL PULL" - trying to pull the residents of WNY into something the people don't want.

As for the town of Marilla.... Giambra went to them... not the other way around. Marilla wants to keep the library they already have now and not have it consolidated with a bordering town. Political pull by the County Executive and whom ever else he can get to follow along....

I think some here call it puppetry

As for South Buffalo, we (the residents) didn't go to the library board requesting a new branch... Giambra came to us with the same proposal he's handed to other towns and cities throughout Western New York. I don't know about you, but where I come from spending $4 million or even $2.5 million doesn't add up to saving anybody any money... period, simple as that!!!!

If the Marilla town board wants a library so bad, they are completely free to open up their own,
Listen carefully: The town of Marilla has their own library and wish to keep it that way. Marilla isn't giving in to the political pull, and neither is South Buffalo.

Maybe where you come from libraries aren't seen as an important asset to the community.. but here they are, and the only selfishness I read is from members like you that don't care enough to allow others to feel differently than yourself.

[Curmudgeon]

<<<I think some here call it puppetry>>>

I call it doing HIS JOB.

Giambra (and everyone else) knows that the region is seriously broke and is trying to reduce expenditures. One easy way to do that is to close 1/2 the libraries and get rid of 1/2 the staff. We have way too many libraries per capita compared to the rest of the country, and most are way underused.

If you lost your job, wouldn't to stop going out to dinner until you fixed YOUR "revenue stream"? That's what it's all about - cutting off the "tax revenue sponges" like libraries.

You never addressed to possibility of Marilla taking over their library and operating it themselves (or your libraries for that matter).

<<<you that don't care enough to allow others to feel differently than yourself>>>

Your "feelings" are of no concern to me at all. What does concern me is you spending MY MONEY ON YOUR "PROGRAMS"!

[Allyssa]

Crum, you said:

One easy way to do that is to close 1/2 the libraries and get rid of 1/2 the staff.

Consolidation of the Buffalo & Erie County Public Libraries in half and following the "two for one" plan is spending way more than you think..

It means as an end result 22 empty buildings (15 of which the city of Buffalo will still be responsible for), having built 11 new buildings throughout the areas and has an amount of 27.5 to 44 million dollars when all is said and done.
<that would be 11 new branches X 2.5 - 4 million dollars for all eleven completed branches conbined>

Where is the savings when they will construct one new building for every two that is shut down?

What does concern me is you spending MY MONEY ON YOUR "PROGRAMS"!

I am not in favor of spending yours, mine or any other taxpaying citizen's money... I am, and have been opposed to a library consolidation project that is costing millions of dollars!!!!

I am not in favor of this consolidation plan.

I thought you would have caught in the Headline that Marilla wishes to keep the library they already have now ... the headline... MARILLA OFFICIALS: DON"T CLOSE OUR LIBRARY.


Giambra (and everyone else) knows that the region is seriously broke and is trying to reduce expenditures.
So then, why is he attempting to spend millions (and I do mean Millions) of dollars to consolidate? It doesn't make any sense to cut back, tighten the belt, and spend millions of property tax dollars to do it.

[Allyssa]

BTW-

I didn't ask for your concern, I was simply implying that your own selfishness (people in Mariila are as selfish and irresponsible as you) runs a bit deeper than what you say of me... and you proved my point.

Your "feelings" are of no concern to me at all.

Are you sure you're not a politician or does arrogance just come natural to you???

[Curmudgeon]

<<<So then, why is he attempting to spend millions (and I do mean Millions) of dollars to consolidate? It doesn't make any sense to cut back, tighten the belt, and spend millions of property tax dollars to do it.>>>

Because, if you have fewer libraries you have fewer salaries, benefits, pensions, facilities, etc,etc,etc,etc,etc...

And, the "millions" are distributed over time via construction bond issues, so that the end result is the taxpayer has a lower "payment" for the library system over any given unit of time (month, year, etc..).

Once again, go to ECC and take economics and accounting.

[Allyssa]

Because, if you have fewer libraries you have fewer salaries, benefits, pensions, facilities, etc,etc,etc,etc,etc...

And at the expense of millions of dollars... just when will these "savings" been seen? How many years down the road will it take before an actual accounting in savings is implimented?

What you said sounds a lot like the mayor's comprehensive plan that has Buffalo residents waiting nearly 30 years before the city will be any better.

the end result is the taxpayer has a lower "payment" for the library system
And where does the increase of taxes... inflation... fit into this addition?

Are you saying that in 30 years, after a mojority of residents have either died, become too old or moved away from the area there will finally be a percentage of savings at a time when a loaf of bread will be somewhere around $3.00 at the store? What would be the point then, Buffalo will be a ghost town with no one to use the libraries.

What's a small price to pay for the things that are needed now? Wishing on the off-chance economics will have a "turn-around" by the time written savings is seen is like climbing a never-end staircase to nowhere.

Besides, the mantaining and cost through increasing utility payments will be the B&ECPL's excuse not to lower the taxes the property owners pay.

Crum's Eco 101=spending millions of dollars in a claim of savings so far down the road that inflation will have surpassed it and the decrease in property taxes will not longer be a factor because the cost of living keeps rising.

[buffalofamily]

Q: Would it save money to consolidate these 2 and others in the future?

A: NO. For each project $2.5 to $4 million E.C. construction money + furnishing, & at least 100's of 1000's of Buffalo's money for land & demolition (0 allocated), vs. estimated $40,000-$80,000 for Caz's ADA access) Also remember that utilities are only less than 4% of the BECPL budget.

BF

[buffalofamily]

FINALLY,

A Ch. 2 report stated that the BECPL said that the operating cost oc Caz and Dudley combined is $500,000 a year.

No breakdown of specific costs.

No ststement on how much a new library consolidated would cost per year to operate.

It won't be half, due to the fact that they promised not to cut staff. They also promised more books, hours, computers, technology etc. ...

Stay Tuned,

BF

[WNYresident]

So each library is $250,000 each?

We need the budget for each library and list of payouts for eah library.

[buffalofamily]

Still trying to get a breakdown of these costs. We also need to know what a new one would cost to operate in the long run.

BF

[WNYresident]

exactly..then we an make a true comparison chart. But all in all i'd rather lower the administration cost first before closing public services. A few less politicians and thier buds would do NYS good. :)

[buffalofamily]

The latest conversations with city engineers found that their is NO major problems with Dudley and Cazenovia. Library officials are distorting the truth, again and again!

Save our libraries volunteers have been in contact with the folks who do a great job keeping up these community properties.

BF

[buffalofamily]

After talking to all my neighbors who pay property taxes, a few points got brought up.

Most know that their is a seperate tax for libraries on their tax bill, so future funding is guaranteed. They enjoy their libraries and want to keep them. They understand that their property values will go down if buildings and services are taken out of the area.

BF

[buffalofamily]

Dan Ward position on libraries:Dan Ward position on libraries:

"I want to bring back jobs, reform our government, and revive our Queen City. Our area has been malingering in mediocrity for too long, and many of our fellow citizens have become discouraged by the same tired politics and quick fixes."

"I stand with you in your opposition to closing down libraries in South Buffalo and support your petition drive. Joel Giambra has the wrong approach to regionalism. His "top-down" method overlooks many important services in neighborhoods and his style neglects the valid concerns of the community. Closing down libraries is the wrong way to go. In my many years of public service, I have always listened and given voice to neighborhood issues."

[buffalofamily]

The petition to SAVE OUR LIBRARIES is at 3,000+ signatures and growing. The landslide Griffin win in the council is also a sign that South Buffalo wants to keep it's libraries.

We need more libraries not less many are now saying. They are worth it!

BF

[buffalofamily]

UPDATE,

The library director revealed on 11/14/03 that consolidating the 2 South Buffalo library branches would save only $100,000. a year in operating costs.

So, lets spend $2.5 Million + land and demolition coats + furnishing costs. If total cost is around $3,000,000, we might see a savings after 30 or more years. Must be new math he took in school.

BF

[buffalofamily]

The petition to save the two South Buffalo library branches was turned in to the B&EPCL Board of Trustees. The Save our Libraries group have turned in over 3,000 signatures (most gathered in front of Dudley and Cazenovia.

That's just the start. "More petitions are out in the community", a spokesperson stated after Thursday's meeting. The library is making a decision on what a dozen or so supporters are saying, over the clear majority in South Buffalo.

BF

[buffalofamily]

SAY NO TO WASTEFUL CONSOLIDATION. All areas of Erie County could be next. They tried it in 2000. Everybody said NO!

BF

[buffalofamily]

The Buffalo Common Council Just passed a version of this resolution on December 9, 2003.

Here is a draft: I'll post the final resolution when it is available to me.

Draft Resolution for a Moratorium on consolidation of Public Libraries in Buffalo

Whereas, Buffalo branches have been disproportionately targeted for
consolidation in the past, losing one fourth of their branches (5)
since
1963 to total 15 in 2003;

Whereas, 11 out of 15 Buffalo libraries were targeted for consolidation
in
2000;

Whereas, North Buffalo branches were targeted for consolidation in 2002;

Whereas, South Buffalo branches are currently being targeted in 2002-3;

Whereas, the library branches of Buffalo’s East side are being proposed as the next target of library consolidation;

Whereas, by these actions we can assume that Buffalo’s libraries are being disproportionately targeted for consolidation in the past, currently, and therefore, in the future;

Whereas, Buffalo & Erie County Public Library (BECPL) Board began as a Buffalo Library Board, funded and administered by the city of Buffalo; which nurtured libraries outside of Buffalo by giving them the advantages of being
part of the larger, more established Buffalo system, through legal
contracts with that system;

Whereas, in 1953, the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library system began as a county entity, and in 2003, has grown to 52 library units with 24 boards of trustees, encompassing 36 contracting branches with 22 contracting boards outside of Buffalo and 15 branches in Buffalo with no board and no
contract;

Whereas, the legal and binding contracts, held by the 36 contracting libraries outside of Buffalo have the advantage of having their own boards, picked by their own communities, having their own funding from the county
which they decide how to spend, they pick their own staff and
administration so that, that staff will be attuned to the needs of their particular communities;

Whereas, the Association of Contracting Trustees (ACT) further
represents these 36 libraries outside of Buffalo, while Buffalo libraries have no such representation;

Whereas, the 15 Buffalo libraries are the only branches in the BECPL system without a representative board, a legal and binding contract, the rights and funding to do as they see fit provided by such a contract, or representation in ACT, and are therefore underrepresented in the BECPL system;

Whereas, Buffalo has, in its one city, one-third of the Erie County
population concentrated within 40 square miles of densely urban
landscape, while it takes 22 towns to make up the other two-thirds;

Whereas, according to Greater Buffalo Niagara Regional Transportation Council, forty percent of Buffalo’s adults have no access to cars, and many more uncounted children have not access to transportation, and therefore, these populations must walk to neighborhood libraries in order to receive library service;

Whereas, lack of core services, like neighborhood libraries, helps
cause the dismantling of livable, walkable, safe neighborhoods, degrades services to children, seniors, and job seekers, degrades community values, contributes to crime, blight, and hopelessness;

Whereas, Buffalo libraries are strategically placed to deliver the best service to its citizens - on major bus routes, surrounded by many schools, businesses and homes;

Whereas, targeted Buffalo libraries are successful where they stand, and as an example, the South Buffalo libraries have both been, for years, in the top four of book circulation for the city;

Whereas, funding has been severely cut to Buffalo public schools, and students have even more need for their neighborhood library that they can walk to safely, to accomplish their homework assignments and projects;

Whereas, library consolidation would cost more in Buffalonians’ tax dollars, while delivering less service;

Whereas, Buffalo would have to spend more money for acquiring land, demolition and clearing for one replacement library than for
maintaining two existing buildings;

Whereas, this land acquisition, demolition and clearing will remove businesses and/or homes from tax rolls, and therefore, go against city revitalization efforts;

Whereas, Buffalo would still be responsible for the maintenance of the two current buildings, as well as the replacement building, depending on the terms agreed upon by city and county;

Whereas, BECPL’s own Guidelines for New Library Construction assert, "The board cannot approve of any proposed project that might enhance the quality of library services in one area at the expense of another.", and this rule is clearly broken by the closing of two or more branches in two separate neighborhoods to open only one for one neighborhood;

Whereas, BECPL’s own $38,000 survey by Insight & Associates concluded that, " A bigger, brighter, more technically excellent facility a mile away is little use to a student doing homework everyday close to home."

Whereas, the proposed consolidation plan is, instead, clearly a
downgrade in services, with the replacement facility being smaller than the current combined square footage, having one less meeting room, only one hour of service per week than currently, and the same technology as all BECPL branches;

Whereas, the proposed South Buffalo "hub" facility is to be 12,000 square feet for a population of over 40,000, while the new Clarence library has 17,000 square feet, for a population of 20,000;

Whereas, the $2.5 million is not sufficient to build a large enough
facility to serve the South Buffalo population of 40,000, since the 20,000 population Clarence library cost $3,400,000, and the 7,630 square foot Akron library, with a population of 7,440 cost $2,900,000;

Whereas, the Clarence library has over 71,000 volumes in its collection for a population of 20,000, while the two South Buffalo contain a total of 43,000 some volumes for a population of over 40,000;

Whereas, it is therefore clear that Buffalo libraries are already not
receiving equal services to some libraries outside the city of Buffalo;

Whereas, BECPL documents prove that, in 2000, after 22 hearings with thousands of participants, and after receiving 10,000 signatures opposing consolidation on petitions, BECPL decided against the plan to consolidate 22 BECPL libraries;

Whereas, since 2000, many communities have again rejected a piecemeal version of this consolidation plan, including North Buffalo, Tonawanda, West Falls, and Marilla;

Whereas, the majority of recorded comment opposes library
consolidation, as evidenced by over 2,500 signatures on petitions opposing library consolidation in 2003;

Therefore, be it resolved, that this body opposes the
consolidation of any of the 15 Buffalo libraries which are part of the BECPL system;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body opposes closing of any of Buffalo’s 15 libraries, except when replacing one building with one new building with clearly enhanced services, as in the case of the new North Jefferson library to be built;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body officially opposes the closing/consolidation of any BECPL libraries, both Buffalo and outside of Buffalo, for the benefit of all Buffalo and Erie County citizens;

Therefore, be it also resolved, that this body will recommend that its members be involved in opposing the closing/consolidation of Buffalo’s Public libraries, including writing letters to authorities to support saving neighborhood libraries;

Therefore, be it further resolved, that this body agrees that a Buffalo Library Board should be created to reverse the inequity caused by the lack of Buffalo representation in BECPL.

BF

[buffalofamily]

JUST SAY NO to Library consolidation! The message is:

LOUD AND CLEAR

BF

[buffalofamily]

Did this WNY Board change? I thought it was a wny thread and the Giambra topics were a seperate thread.

These Library topics were under the Buffalo heading at one time, but were moved when registration was not necessary in those topics, and a lot of unregistereds were posting.

I think a WNY thread should be it's own heading, NOT lumped with Joel G topics. Remember WNY is a 7 County area.

BF

[Curmudgeon]

I think a WNY thread should be it's own heading, NOT lumped with Joel G topics. Remember WNY is a 7 County area.

And B&EPCL is an Erie County agency, not a niagra county agency. And Giambra's the executive...



Whereas, Whereas, Whereas, Whereas, Whereas, Whereas,
Yes, you've published a manifesto from an agency that is a plea to not have itself downsized. They forgot one Whereas, : "We don't want any of us to lose our jobs!!!".

I HAVE A BETTER IDEA: dissolve B&EPCL altogether. Return the libraries to the communities in which they reside. The has turned into a giant bureaucracy with it's own self-preservationist agenda. Get rid of the board.

[buffalofamily]

Churmudgeon,

Let me clear up a few things with YOU.

Yes, BEPCL is a county agency, but this topic was originally posted on the Buffalo Board, before registration was required, and later moved due to the number of unregisters butting in.

THIS topic is about Saving libraries in BUFFALO, and was posted originally in the Buffalo NY area of this site.

The Whereas is NOT from the BEPCL, but the Buffalo Common Council, on behalf of the Citizens of the City.

The employees of the two libraries (Cazenovia and Dudley) think their jobs are safe. We know different. They are fighting FOR the consolidation.

I like your idea. The only libraries that don't have their own board are the 15 in buffalo. All the others in the towns and villages are under contract with the BEPCL. Maybe Buffalo could have it's own board, or start private community libraries, like charter schools, but owned by the residents of the community.

Remember this consolidation plan will COST $2.5 million (in each community)+ costs to each community for land, demolition ...

It equals SPENDING and NOT SAVING!

BF

[Curmudgeon]

I like your idea. The only libraries that don't have their own board are the 15 in buffalo. All the others in the towns and villages are under contract with the BEPCL. Maybe Buffalo could have it's own board, or start private community libraries, like charter schools, but owned by the residents of the community.

Yes, We should get rid of the county layer and BEPCL structure altogether. This would include any funding from the county. Let each community pay for its libraries. If you want to keep your Dudley & Caz, you can pay for it out of your property taxes. In fact, ecah library should have its own special assessment on the community in which it resides and the community can vote on its budget, like school tax. Sounds fair to me and you control your own fate in regard to libraries.

[buffalofamily]

It's a great idea.

In fact the library found that "Most who attended expressed a willingness to pay more for library services, but this is not universal as some raised concerns about increased taxes."

Each community could find sponsors and have fund raising events too. This would keep taxes down and truly give the neighborhoods control over what services they want and how it's to be delivered.

I really think the library system is wrong with this new "one size fits all" direction it's headed in.

Buffalofamily

[buffalofamily]

The proponents of the consolidated library proposal are touting the "NEW" library as a "World Class Library" for South Buffalo.

HMMMMM.....
Do you think they can squeeze in Millions of books like other "World Class Libraries" ???

Here is an example of World Class Libraries and the amount of book resources they offer:

1. Library of Congress - 24 Million
2. National Library of China - 20 Million
3. National Library of Canada - 16 Million
4. Deutsche Bibliothek, Germany - 15.9 Million
5. British Library - 15 Million

I would consider changing my view on consolidation, if a true "World Class Library" was the "Offer", but I don't think the tiny 12,000 Square Foot option will fit the bill as "World Class"

At the size it would be, it would be a second rate "hub" and nothing more than we already have. Lets save Millions of dollars and spend far less by fixing all our branch services. Most only need very minor repairs.

BF

[buffalofamily]

15 months after this awful "deal" was proposed we have no answers as to what is the proposal.

How can a community decide without knowing ???:

A Proposed location- none given

architect???

blueprints???

budget??? was "$4,000,000 + now $2,500,000 + hidden costs to the city. BROKEN PROMISE

where the money will come from??? (it is now a reality that the money will be borrowed) leaving the taxpayers with a bill and LESS service. BROKEN PROMISE

Who asked for this in South Buffalo??? The community didn't go to the county and ask for two libraries to be closed!

Will it be a Buffalo Library? County officials now say NO. So it's a county takeover of Buffalo's libraries in the form of consolidation. BROKEN PROMISE

Hidden costs?

Staff cuts are now reality according to library officials. South Buffalo would get LESS staff. This goes against the initial promise! BROKEN PROMISE


Stay tuned

BF

[buffalofamily]

15 months after this awful "deal" was proposed we have no answers as to what is the proposal.

How can a community decide without knowing ???:

A Proposed location- none given

architect???

blueprints???

budget??? was "$4,000,000 + now $2,500,000 + hidden costs to the city. BROKEN PROMISE

where the money will come from??? (it is now a reality that the money will be borrowed) leaving the taxpayers with a bill and LESS service. BROKEN PROMISE

Who asked for this in South Buffalo??? The community didn't go to the county and ask for two libraries to be closed!

Will it be a Buffalo Library? County officials now say NO. So it's a county takeover of Buffalo's libraries in the form of consolidation. BROKEN PROMISE

Hidden costs?

Staff cuts are now reality according to library officials. South Buffalo would get LESS staff. This goes against the initial promise! BROKEN PROMISE


Stay tuned

BF

[Curmudgeon]

Staff cuts are now reality according to library officials. South Buffalo would get LESS staff. This goes against the initial promise! BROKEN PROMISE

...and the taxpayers say HOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[buffalofamily]

CRUM SEZ:...and the taxpayers say HOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT SO FAST CRUM-

The library director stated that staff would be cut, and those no longer working in South Buffalo would be shifted to other locations.

Clearly a downgrade in staff for South Buffalo, while no savings in money.

BF

[buffalofamily]

Almost 18 months after the vague proposal, we still have NO clear proposal.

How can a community decide without knowing ???:

A Proposed location- none given (STILL)

architect???

blueprints???

budget??? was "$4,000,000 + now $2,500,000 + hidden costs to the city. BROKEN PROMISE

where the money will come from??? (it is now a reality that the money will be borrowed) leaving the taxpayers with a bill and LESS service. BROKEN PROMISE

Who asked for this in South Buffalo??? The community didn't go to the county and ask for two libraries to be closed!

Will it be a Buffalo Library? County officials now say NO. So it's a county takeover of Buffalo's libraries in the form of consolidation. BROKEN PROMISE

Hidden costs?

Staff cuts are now reality according to library officials. South Buffalo would get LESS staff. This goes against the initial promise! BROKEN PROMISE

"No more closed door meetings" - said Legislator Mark J.F. Shroeder Meetings have been held that the public has not been allowed to attend.
BROKEN PROMISE

Various rules and guidelines of the B&ECPL
BROKEN

BF&TP

[buffalofamily]

From Save our Libraries:

In 2000, BECPL announced that it would not close/consolidate its libraries, due to public outcry. That public outcry was not based on sentiment, but facts. Consolidation is not about new versus old, it is about ending equal access to information for all. Information is power, and those who would close and consolidate libraries, especially in Buffalo, are tipping that scale even more toward the "haves" who can drive, and taking everything from the "have-nots" who do not even have access to cars, nor the money to personally take on the extra burden for transportation to a library outside of their neighborhood, which, in the end, would be like specifically "taxing" the less fortunate.

That most of the speakers at the 5 Erie County budget hearings spoke in defense of libraries highlights the fact, once again, that our libraries are a top priority for taxpayers, many of whom said specifically that they would be willing to pay more taxes if it were to benefit this particular Quality of Life service.

The libraries, which cost less than 2% or the entire Erie County budget when fully funded, did not cause the county budget problems and should not bear so much of its cuts, especially since most or all of the "pork" is still funded, while we pay more in sales and property tax. The $4.2million cut to BECPL is disproportionately large, amounting to a 14% cut to its budget (using last year’s $30million as budget figure). If you factor in the necessary increases for this year, it is actually a deeper cut. The utilities on BECPL’s 52 buildings account for only .38 of the total BECPL budget, which is one reason closing buildings is no great cost saving venture.

So, with the $4.2million cuts, we will be paying more taxes and getting less of the services that most speakers said were their top priority - the libraries. Those cuts are resulting in a loss of library hours, employees, and programs, including the complete loss of mobile libraries and computer classes.

Library consolidation is a money pit which funds construction instead of services and takes services away from the neediest, while adding unnecessary debt to the county. When the county is finished with the construction, land acquisition, furnishing, stocking, etc. costs, as well as all the interest you will pay on the bonds and all the capital expenses the county will pay on the new buildings when they must be repaired, you will wish you had never heard of consolidation, because it is not an idea to benefit you, but to make contractors richer. Library consolidation is a bad deal for the economy. If you close any libraries, you will be paying more - for the jobless that the library didn’t help get a job, for their Medicaid, because they didn’t get the job, for remedial teaching for the students no longer served by the library, for the businesses closed because the library was not there with information for them. And all localities will have to keep paying for the old properties. You will end up paying more in taxes for this. Consolidation costs more than continuing service levels and takes away equal access to information. When faced with county budget cuts, even BECPL chair Rebecca Pordum - representing the BECPL board - said, "We need all 52 libraries open."

It is not fair to try to balance the budget on the back of the service that is available to all and that taxpayers treasure the most - the libraries. It is already Erie County’s most inexpensive, and arguably the most well-run service. Erie County’s 52 libraries cost the same as Las Vegas’ 23 branches.

In the end, the impact of cuts and consolidation to library services will be great, but the monetary impact of them in solving the budget crisis will, at the same time, be too small to make a real dent in Erie County’s debt, therefore, it would be penny wise and pound foolish to cut library funding or consolidate libraries.

[buffalofamily]

Stay tuned for more new information on our successful 52 Branch Regional Library System.

BF

[farmall806]

Consolidating the erie county library system into one massive libary centraly located where it would serve the most good is what would be the best option for the taxpayers of tthis county. Close all the other libraries and have just one big library. And start the process of having all the reading material put on the libarary website so that it can be read online.

farmall806

[Night Owl]

There already is a "county" centralized library in Downtown Buffalo.

[farmall806]

What I am talking about is that every library should be closed in favor of having just one county library.

farmall806

[WestCoastPerspective]

All I know is Hamburg doesn't need three. Keep the village and close Blasdell and Lakeshore. The only other first-ring suburg that needs more than one is probably Amherst, a weak case could be made for Cheektowaga. If a town wants more than one library- let the town pick up the expenses. This county doesn't need more than 10 libraries- who said they need to be every five miles or so?

[farmall806]

GOOD POINT!!! Why not let those towns that want a library in their town, put up the money to fund their own library in their respective towns?

Thanks,

farmall806

[douggust]

I'm new to this discussion, so I may repeat something already said.

Does "eerie" County really need all of libraries that we have, I doubt it.

Which ones should go, surely not the ones in the rural areas. Should those folks be forced to go downtown?? I don't what to go there if I can help it.

Maybe someone should take a hard look at the purpose of a library.

I don't think that a library should be a "Media Play" or a "Blockbuster" and supply anyone with CD's or DVD's, I always thought their purpose was for information & knowledge not for entertainment.

If one wants the newest CD by "snoop-dog" or whomever,
go out a buy it, same goes for "The Passion" or whatever movie is the "hot" one.

And why did the library system buy what seems to be hundreds of copies of "My Life" or is that "My Lies" by Bill Clinton?? Talk about money wasted.

Same old, same old -- government waste at it best.

[SICKOFTAXES]

Every public school that I know of has a library we are already paying for in school taxes.

Why not close down the rest and use these? Make the schools work for the tax money they keep taking. We pay for these services again and again!!

Then maybe we could get the library tax off our erie county tax bill!:)

[buffalofamily]

B&ECPL when fully funded is LESS than 2% of the county budget. A bargain for our tax money. I'd rather keep neighborhood libraries, than fund Bass Pro.

The library tax portion is not an additional tax. It's a % taken out to protect our library system. The towns already pay for the upkeep of libraries in their own systems. Most of the buildings are bought and paid for. The libraries are operated by the county, which saves millions of dollars each year. If we take apart the system, we'll pay WAY more in taxes.

It's a great system that costs very little, and serves so many. Cut county patronage, pork and you'll see taxes go down.

BF

[SICKOFTAXES]

Originally posted by buffalofamily
B&ECPL when fully funded is LESS than 2% of the county budget. A bargain for our tax money. I'd rather keep neighborhood libraries, than fund Bass Pro.

The library tax portion is not an additional tax. It's a % taken out to protect our library system. The towns already pay for the upkeep of libraries in their own systems. Most of the buildings are bought and paid for. The libraries are operated by the county, which saves millions of dollars each year. If we take apart the system, we'll pay WAY more in taxes.

It's a great system that costs very little, and serves so many. Cut county patronage, pork and you'll see taxes go down.

BF

It is a tax none the less and I would rather not pay for the same services again and again.

If you want to keep a town library than get rid of the school library and its staff!

I do not want to pay for the layers of services.:mad:

[Night Owl]

It's like déjà vu ... all over again.

As I stated before, school libraries are funded seperatly by the school systems and cannot be opened for public use. There are too many security concerns.

If you want to keep a town library than get rid of the school library and its staff!

Perhaps this is something you should talk with your town representitive about or even the school board, I do not know much about the Lancaster school system, maybe they can give you a little more details as to what it involves and why there is a need for school libraries as well having public libraries there.

The City of Buffalo doesn't have a "layer of services" because we do not pay a seperate school tax, but we pay property taxes just the same.

[SICKOFTAXES]

Originally posted by Night Owl
It's like déjà vu ... all over again.

As I stated before, school libraries are funded seperatly by the school systems and cannot be opened for public use. There are too many security concerns.

If you want to keep a town library than get rid of the school library and its staff!

Perhaps this is something you should talk with your town representitive about or even the school board, I do not know much about the Lancaster school system, maybe they can give you a little more details as to what it involves and why there is a need for school libraries as well having public libraries there.

The City of Buffalo doesn't have a "layer of services" because we do not pay a seperate school tax, but we pay property taxes just the same.

I know we pay for our schools and yours so you wouldn't know about the layers, but I for one are sick of paying for them.

And As far as school libraries being funded seperatly by the school?? (WE FUND THE SCHOOL!) and yes they can be opened for public use!! The schools have community education programs offered in the school to the public year round. You sound like our gov. officials throwing s*** out there and seeing what we beleive!!

But if for some crazy reason you don't want to use the school libraries go back to my orginal plan of one town or city library!

:p

[WestCoastPerspective]

Sweet Jesus- get off the pork and patronage kick. There isn't $60 million to cut! Pay attention to the facts- costs are increasing and revenue isn't. Worse yet, the County has to pay these costs by law. Until Albany changes- we're a sinking ship. There aren't many discretionary items left to cut- and libraries have a big target on them and rightly so. Time to right-size! Thats what the 'taxpayer revolt' said- so put your motto to work people. You can't have it both ways. Suck it up and start chopping or open your wallets.

[Night Owl]

I know we pay for our schools and yours so you wouldn't know about the layers,

Honestly, I do not know what this means, how do you pay school taxes for city schools?

And As far as school libraries being funded seperatly by the school?? (WE FUND THE SCHOOL!)

I am sorry, I should have been a little more specific, the school libraries are funded seperatly than the public libraries.

and yes they can be opened for public use!! The schools have community education programs offered in the school to the public year round.

Is this during school hours when students occupy the buildings?

You sound like our gov. officials throwing s*** out there and seeing what we beleive!!

Nope. The B&ECPL once tried to open a school library to the public and it failed.

Please, like I said to others, don't shoot the messenger. When I give imformation about the libraries it is 100% in accordene with what the Buffalo and Erie County Library says. I have no interest or reason to lie about it. People beleive what they want to... I just put it out there as B&ECPL data.

But if for some crazy reason you don't want to use the school libraries ...

I never gave that impression. I just said that it cannot be done for security reasons; it was attempted and fail and will not be tried again by the B&ECPL.

[Curmudgeon]

When I give imformation about the libraries it is 100% in accordene with what the Buffalo and Erie County Library says. I have no interest or reason to lie about it. People beleive what they want to... I just put it out there as B&ECPL data.

"Data" is objective information, like "rainfall in a year", for example.

The "data" you are parroting is opinion given by a bureaucracy the doesn't want itself to be shrunk.

Every single E.C. department doesn't want to be shrunk. That's what all those lawsuits were about that were tossed out of court (D.A.'s office, etc) last week.

You're characterizing the B&ECPL as an "objective source" of information, and it most certianly is not. And by definition, neither can you.

[Night Owl]

Main Entry: da·ta
Pronunciation: 'dA-t&, 'da- also 'dä-
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Latin, plural of datum

1 : factual information (as measurements or statistics) used as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or calculation

---------------------------------------------------------
Main Entry: 1ob·jec·tive
Pronunciation: &b-'jek-tiv, äb-
Function: adjective

3 a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

---------------------------------------------------------

You're characterizing the B&ECPL as an "objective source" of information, and it most certianly is not. And by definition, neither can you.

What else would you all like me to say? If I were to find (let's say) a questionable $3 million -no other bids taken- contract with the B&ECPL like with the County I would probaly say something about that too.

Nothing I have said in these posts about the libraries is 'opinionated' - like that the B&ECPL cut $4 million from their budget prior to the "no" vote of the sales tax increase. Or that from their 2005 budget cuts, the wages and salaries reductions from ten branches was $119,155; total labor $144,589. (no opinion there)

If anything at all, everyone else replying in the library threads are giving an "opinion" including yourself.

Does anyone know what the reduction in Sunday hours at 5 branches will save in 2005? Here I'll make it easy on you, it is $73,738 and the 5 Branches were Kenmore, JBR, Hamburg, Dudley and Crane. (No opinion given there)

[buffknut]

I believe all but the downtown library can be closed. I agree with those that are tired of having a dual library system, the EC one and the school libraries. This is an expensive luxury.

We need to cut the sacred cows. Libraries are an expensive sacred cow.

[SICKOFTAXES]

Originally posted by buffknut
I believe all but the downtown library can be closed. I agree with those that are tired of having a dual library system, the EC one and the school libraries. This is an expensive luxury.

We need to cut the sacred cows. Libraries are an expensive sacred cow.


I AGREE!!!

[Curmudgeon]

If anything at all, everyone else replying in the library threads are giving an "opinion" including yourself.

Yes, I do. However, I don't portray myself as a someone who is not. I don't portray myself as an "objective journalist". I don't masquerade my opinion as a "Development" article and call it objective reporting.

You shouldn't have to resort to manipulative tricks to get your opinion across. that's very Joseph Goebbels. Let your opinion speak for itself, and stop trying to hoodwink the masses. If your opinion has legs, it will stand on it's own.

;)

[Night Owl]

We need to cut the sacred cows. Libraries are an expensive sacred cow.

Really??? What do you make of this as an expensive "sacred cow"?

http://www.speakupwny.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2844

If your opinion has legs, it will stand on it's own.

That's the part I don't think you understand and I think I mentioned it before, just because I give information about the libraries doesn't mean that I am a die-hard supporter of them - that is why I'm not giving an opinion.

hoodwink ? Gawd, you think that is what it is?

I can say that the libraries cut 120 hours of services at all 15 city branches in the budget, there is nothing 'misleading' about that because they really did cut 120 hours.

[WestCoastPerspective]

Three ECC campuses, Three public libraries. Spend a little, save a lot.

Simple!

[SICKOFTAXES]

Originally posted by WestCoastPerspective
Three ECC campuses, Three public libraries. Spend a little, save a lot.

Simple!

GREAT IDEA!!! GREAT IDEA!! GREAT IDEA!!!

This is the BEST idea I have seen in a long time!!


And it wouldn't endanger the little children in the K-12 schools.:)

The libraries are going to get cut one way or another get over it!!!

[Night Owl]

This is the BEST idea I have seen in a long time!!

I am sure the residents of Erie County would love to know they are paying $26 million for a 3 branch library system...

Because that is what they will pay no matter what the number of branches we have running.

[WNYresident]

no, it would have to be more like 1.5 million for three libraries. They couldn't take the other cash and piss it away somewhere else.

[Night Owl]

no, it would have to be more like 1.5 million for three libraries. They couldn't take the other cash and piss it away somewhere else.

There is no interest whatsoever in reducing the number of libraries to reduce real property tax. If the B&ECPL reduces the number of branches then $26 million of reproperty tax will go into whatever number of branches there are.

If it's reduced to say 3, like in the suggestion, the B&ECPL will soak 26 mill into just those 3 branches. Because there is a protection act that says money gained from the real property tax HAS to go only for libraries in the total amount. Yes, laws can be changed... but for right now there is a protection law to secure the real property taxes from being used for other things except libraries; so that it is NOT "pissed away" somewhere else. Right now, the B&ECPL is not looking to reduce the real property tax.

Not to sound arrogant, but what you think it should be and what it actually is are two entirely different things.

[Curmudgeon]

Right now, the B&ECPL is not looking to reduce the real property tax.

Right now, the leadership of the B&ECPL should be removed and any "protection" laws changed.

[Night Owl]

No matter what happens, or what you think should happen with the B&ECPL it will not change the current budget problems in Erie County. Shutting down every single library branch will not make any sugnifigant difference in the County Problems (because they are two entirely seperate entities) AND the residents would be paying $26 million in real property tax ... for nothing.

The Libraries were threatened prior to the "no" vote on the sales tax increase and they reduced their operating budget by $4 million, when in fact the County only took out what they would normally give, and that's just under a million ($974,715).

So there is $3 million floating around somewhere that the taxpayers paid by real property tax that, my guess* (just this time) was shifted into the County's cookie jar ... where it doesn't belong. If anything the County may have hoodwinked the taxpayers out of 3 million but going through the B&ECPL.

*but I definately will look into this and see what kind of answer I can get for you all

[SICKOFTAXES]

Laws are made to be changed and don't worry Nightowl this will still be going on next year when the libraries are looking for a new budget and we won't forget to make sure we change this situation.

But you are very right you have us this year, unless we go bankrupt.. can we do this? Contracts change then don't they???

Let me know I might be onto something here!!:)

[farmall806]

The county is going broke and everyone is worried about the LIBRARIES??:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
. Keeping the hospitals funded and the police force funded is MORE IMPORTANT THAN KEEPING LIBRARIES OPEN!!! If the arts and cultural organizations cannot support themselves financialy on their own, then they should close.

farmall806

[Night Owl]

If the County goes belly-up tomorrow the libraries will still remain open because Erie County does NOT fund 100% of the libraries. Just under a million was pulled out of their budgeting from the County because that is all the county would give.

The real property tax and state aid are the two largest entities… the County is ZERO (this year).