Would Jesus Christ be PRO-CHOICE ?

[Bringthetruth]

Now the majority of evangelicals have never put it this way.

Being pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, it means what it says pro-choice.


Jesus always told his follwers what to do, but he never made them do it.

The prostitutes in the bible mary magdeline- rahab and other acts of immorality were going on in Jesus day too.

Did Jesus ever make someone not sin by force ?

Or did he leave that choice to the individual, by saying you are forgiven now go and sin more.


Pharrisee's and Sadducces tried to force the people of that day to abide by their rules knowing that the people could not keep them .

That's why when Jesus came on the scene he defeated them with his new approach to sin, that they never understood.

They came with the letter of the law, Jesus came with the Spirit of it.

[Steiny]

We may never know! :)

It would be great to have a forum with Jesus, Buddha, Mother Teresa, Moses, Allah, and other great alive and dead religious and spiritual leaders and ask them all of these questions, kind of like the recent Obama/McCain forum this weekend.

Jesus and Buddha for President and VP! :)

[run4it]

Jesus and Buddha for President and VP! :)
Sorry, but considering how much Jesus liked to piss off the powers that be, the ticket could only be sold the other way around.

Back on topic, BTT makes an excellent point. Jesus never advocated a religious takeover of government. That's why the people demanded he be handed over for crucifiction: he refused to fight to overthrow the Roman regime. (get it, fundies? Even Jesus knew that religion and politics shouldn't mix!)

[Steiny]

Sorry, but considering how much Jesus liked to piss off the powers that be, the ticket could only be sold the other way around.

Back on topic, BTT makes an excellent point. Jesus never advocated a religious takeover of government. That's why the people demanded he be handed over for crucifiction: he refused to fight to overthrow the Roman regime. (get it, fundies? Even Jesus knew that religion and politics shouldn't mix!)

Yes, thank goodness for the 1st Amendment! Imagine if the USA declared itself with only one religion?

[Dumbfounded]

Jesus would mind his own business because his Dad
gave humans freedom of choice. In EVERYTHING.

Jesus would not judge nor condemn women aborting and their abortion providers

Jesus would have told his Dad to boot James Kopp's cowardly a$$ straight to Hell

Jesus did not preach, but led by example and would do so today, until instead of crucifixation, he met the same fate as J.F.K., R.F.K., Martin Luther King and Ghandi;Assassination

"What would Jesus do?"
He would look on in disgust at the ant-skulls carrying signs and screaming in front of abortion clinics

Eventually, Jesus would grow so disgusted with this planet that he'd BEG Dad to "move back in."


This post is under the assumption that Jesus ever and does exist.
I'm sure this post has made me more enemies.
Good.

[winfield31]

Now the majority of evangelicals have never put it this way.

Being pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion, it means what it says pro-choice.


Jesus always told his follwers what to do, but he never made them do it.

The prostitutes in the bible mary magdeline- rahab and other acts of immorality were going on in Jesus day too.

Did Jesus ever make someone not sin by force ?

Or did he leave that choice to the individual, by saying you are forgiven now go and sin more.


Pharrisee's and Sadducces tried to force the people of that day to abide by their rules knowing that the people could not keep them .

That's why when Jesus came on the scene he defeated them with his new approach to sin, that they never understood.

They came with the letter of the law, Jesus came with the Spirit of it.Or did he leave that choice to the individual, by saying you are forgiven now go and sin more. <---- BTT , I think you missed a very important word in that post , I believe Jesus said "go & sin "NO" more......." I think you missed the word "no" which is very integral to that passage of scripture........that said , Jesus already is "pro-life" as His Father God ( ours/mine) & He wrote the Ten Commandments , & I believe one of those is "thou shall not kill"...........now the rest of you can debate when "life" starts , to me it's at "inception" as I think it's SUCH a GREAT miracle that two small cells can join & become a thinking (with certain exclusions to this MB) contributing member of society.........

[winfield31]

Jesus would mind his own business because his Dad
gave humans freedom of choice. In EVERYTHING.

Jesus would not judge nor condemn women aborting and their abortion providers

Jesus would have told his Dad to boot James Kopp's cowardly a$$ straight to Hell

Jesus did not preach, but led by example and would do so today, until instead of crucifixation, he met the same fate as J.F.K., R.F.K., Martin Luther King and Ghandi;Assassination

"What would Jesus do?"
He would look on in disgust at the ant-skulls carrying signs and screaming in front of abortion clinics

Eventually, Jesus would grow so disgusted with this planet that he'd BEG Dad to "move back in."


This post is under the assumption that Jesus ever and does exist.
I'm sure this post has made me more enemies.
Good.df , what would Jesus do with Slepian , kick him straight to hell with Kopp , they're both killers if you ask me..........

[Steiny]

WWBD- What Would Buddha Do?
WWJD- What Would Jesus Do?
WWMD- What Would Moses Do?
WWAD- What Would Allah do?

I have some cool books on What Would Buddha do at work which is a good fun read.

[mesue]

...Jesus did not preach, ...
Apparently Matthew Chapter 5 is not in your Bible.

[mesue]

WWBD- What Would Buddha Do?
WWJD- What Would Jesus Do?
WWMD- What Would Moses Do?
WWAD- What Would Allah do?

I have some cool books on What Would Buddha do at work which is a good fun read.
As a Christian, it doesn't matter what Buddha and Allah would do, I don't follow after their teachings.
As for Moses, he is my schoolmaster and Jesus is my Master. See Galatians 3:24 :)
I have a cool book that will tell me, or anyone else, what Jesus would do, what Moses did do. By this one book I discern all others' teachings. :)

[Steiny]

Aren't we all glad we live in a multicultural diverse religious/spiritual world where all beliefs are celebrated and honored, not just one. :)

We all can learn from all religions/spiritualities/beliefs and open our minds. It is amazing to visit all spiritual places of worship and experience how they worship to get the full perspective.

Follow the golden rule of treating everyone how you would want to be treated is always good to be more diverse.

Live long and prosper III II

Nanu Nanu!

[mikenold]

Jesus was, is and always will be pro choice. However, the choice He would make would be the only correct and Righteous choice. Any choice other than His would be wrong. In the case of whether or not to Abort a Child, Jesus would choose life for the Child. God's commandment, Thou shalt not kill, is still God's commandment and his Son followed all His commandments. Any other choice would be wrong.

[mikenold]

[QUOTE=Steiny]Follow the golden rule of treating everyone how you would want to be treated is always good to be more diverse.
QUOTE]

What does that sentence mean exactly? :confused:

[Steiny]

It's always interesting to read and view as well as try to understand how all religions/spiritualities/beliefs view emotional issues like abortion, the death penalty, gay marriage, etc.

[Bringthetruth]

Or did he leave that choice to the individual, by saying you are forgiven now go and sin more. <---- BTT , I think you missed a very important word in that post , I believe Jesus said "go & sin "NO" more......." I think you missed the word "no" which is very integral to that passage of scripture........that said , Jesus already is "pro-life" as His Father God ( ours/mine) & He wrote the Ten Commandments , & I believe one of those is "thou shall not kill"...........now the rest of you can debate when "life" starts , to me it's at "inception" as I think it's SUCH a GREAT miracle that two small cells can join & become a thinking (with certain exclusions to this MB) contributing member of society.........


Thank you for correcting me, I meant to say "go and sin no more".

As for inception,what about the anti-abortion women who use IUD's as a method of birth control ?

My point is the IUD in many cases prevents the egg (conception had already happened) from planting itself into the uterus.

[Steiny]

What about the ever so emotional debate about a women who is raped and pregnant? Is abortion okay then?

[mikenold]

What about the ever so emotional debate about a women who is raped and pregnant? Is abortion okay then?

No, the baby could be adopted out to a loving Family. I have known people who have waited more than two years for a baby and would adopt a baby in a minute if it was possible. Babies should not be killed period.

[Steiny]

It's good that it is still a CHOICE in this country. We will be in trouble if this CHOICE is ever taken away. It should always be up to the original women.

[mesue]

It's good that it is still a CHOICE in this country. We will be in trouble if this CHOICE is ever taken away. It should always be up to the original women.
People are always free to sin, this includes abortion I suppose.

[Bannister]

Although I think it grieves his heart that babies are aborted, I think Jesus would refuse to fall into our human labels of pro choice or pro life.

I think if we were to get him down here and ask him, I believe he would shock us (on both sides of the debate) just as much as he shocked the people who thought they had him cornered during the stoning of the prostitute.

[Steiny]

Many women must be sinners.

[winfield31]

Although I think it grieves his heart that babies are aborted, I think Jesus would refuse to fall into our human labels of pro choice or pro life.

I think if we were to get him down here and ask him, I believe he would shock us (on both sides of the debate) just as much as he shocked the people who thought they had him cornered during the stoning of the prostitute.I wish I could find it on the 'net , the pic of a Jesus image holding an aborted baby (full term , nothing gross) , but He had tears in His eyes , so do I get them for every child that is snuffed out , no other "kind" words for me to use then the word "snuff"............

[Bannister]

Many women must be sinners.

Everyone's a sinner.

[Steiny]

"The Joker"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
Cause I speak of the pompitous of love

People talk about me, baby
Say I'm doin' you wrong, doin' you wrong
Well, don't you worry baby
Don't worry
Cause I'm right here, right here, right here, right here at home

Cause I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun

I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I sure don't want to hurt no one

I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun

I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I get my lovin' on the run
Wooo Wooooo

You're the cutest thing
That I ever did see
I really love your peaches
Want to shake your tree
Lovey-dovey, lovey-dovey, lovey-dovey all the time
Ooo-eee baby, I'll sure show you a good time

Cause I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun

I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I get my lovin' on the run

I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun

I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I sure don't want to hurt no one

Wooo Woooo

People keep talking about me baby
They say I'm doin' you wrong
Well don't you worry, don't worry, no don't worry mama
Cause I'm right here at home

You're the cutest thing I ever did see
Really love your peaches want to shake your tree
Lovey-dovey, lovey-dovey, lovey-dovey all the time
Come on baby and I'll show you a good time

[winfield31]

"The Joker"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
Cause I speak of the pompitous of love

People talk about me, baby
Say I'm doin' you wrong, doin' you wrong
Well, don't you worry baby
Don't worry
Cause I'm right here, right here, right here, right here at home

Cause I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun

I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I sure don't want to hurt no one

I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun

I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I get my lovin' on the run
Wooo Wooooo

You're the cutest thing
That I ever did see
I really love your peaches
Want to shake your tree
Lovey-dovey, lovey-dovey, lovey-dovey all the time
Ooo-eee baby, I'll sure show you a good time

Cause I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun

I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I get my lovin' on the run

I'm a picker
I'm a grinner
I'm a lover
And I'm a sinner
I play my music in the sun

I'm a joker
I'm a smoker
I'm a midnight toker
I sure don't want to hurt no one

Wooo Woooo

People keep talking about me baby
They say I'm doin' you wrong
Well don't you worry, don't worry, no don't worry mama
Cause I'm right here at home

You're the cutest thing I ever did see
Really love your peaches want to shake your tree
Lovey-dovey, lovey-dovey, lovey-dovey all the time
Come on baby and I'll show you a good timeI think that Seve Miller thinks that Jesus is pro-choice as per his lyrics ?

[mesue]

Although I think it grieves his heart that babies are aborted, I think Jesus would refuse to fall into our human labels of pro choice or pro life.

I think if we were to get him down here and ask him, I believe he would shock us (on both sides of the debate) just as much as he shocked the people who thought they had him cornered during the stoning of the prostitute.
I think, as with the prostitute, He would call a sin a sin, but would have us not judge/make her atone for her sin. Only He can atone for her sin. Only He can know her heart.
I can call a sin a sin, I do and will continue to do so. I just cannot know a heart to condemn it. Just because one calls a sin a sin doesn't mean they are passing judgment. Stealing is naming a sin. To say some one should go to Hell because they stole something is not only naming the sin but passing judgment as well.

[Bringthetruth]

Although I think it grieves his heart that babies are aborted, I think Jesus would refuse to fall into our human labels of pro choice or pro life.

I think if we were to get him down here and ask him, I believe he would shock us (on both sides of the debate) just as much as he shocked the people who thought they had him cornered during the stoning of the prostitute.

Bannister , that's what I have been saying. One evangelical leader claims they know what's said in the word about women abortions choices.

We know from the word that Jesus hates sin and loves the sinner, but some treat a women's sinning above all others when it comes to abortion.... who started that James Dobson ?


My belief is those children go right back to heaven, but an adult who's being murdered is destined to hell if they don't know the Lord.

Who's really lost for an eternity ?

[therising]

God's commandment, Thou shalt not kill, is still God's commandment and his Son followed all His commandments. Any other choice would be wrong.

How do you think Jesus would feel about the death penalty?

[therising]

"The Joker"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some people call me the space cowboy, yeah
Some call me the gangster of love
Some people call me Maurice
Cause I speak of the pompitous of love

I can't hear that song without thinking of this version. :D

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ImvokFGkKEY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ImvokFGkKEY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[mikenold]

How do you think Jesus would feel about the death penalty?

If you look at the Old Testament, there are offenses that warranted death. Having said that, we do know that Christ told the crowd in the Book of John: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. The Thief on the cross was allowed to spend eternity with God because of his heart attitude on the cross next to Jesus. Jesus was here at that time to show forgiveness for sins, and to take the sins of the world to the cross and to die with all sin, past, present, and future put on him. All this so that if we believe in this happening and trust Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we too can spend eternity with God in heaven. However, don't be fooled, Jesus will be back one day in judgment. He will judge the living and the dead.

The conclusion is that I believe that Jesus would like to see no one die. But that all should come to repentance. It says in the book of second Peter:3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. We have free will to follow God or not. Those that reject God will be thrown into the Lake of fire at the end as it says in the Book of Revelation:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. This is the ultimate death penalty.

The bottom line is, Jesus does not want anyone to die, but ultimately there is a death penalty at the end for those that do not accept God.

[Steiny]

I don't agree with the death penalty as no one has the right to kill another. Two wrongs never make something right. The death penalty is not a learning experience for the individual.

I am not too fond of abortion, but respect women to much to not respect her decision and HER BODY!

All emotional issues that we will never all agree on.

[mikenold]

I don't agree with the death penalty as no one has the right to kill another. Two wrongs never make something right. The death penalty is not a learning experience for the individual.

I am not too fond of abortion, but respect women to much to not respect her decision and HER BODY!

All emotional issues that we will never all agree on.

I wonder what you would do if someone were coming after you in order to take your life or the lives of your family members. Would you be willing to watch your family die rather than, if possible, step in and kill the perpetrator? Would you be so willing to die as not to take steps to stop someone from taking your own life? I do not believe that too many people would agree with the stance to sit back and not try to stop someone else from killing any Human Being. Although I agree with you that two wrongs don't make a right, if one side is right and the other side wrong, then I always like to see the righteous side win.

[Steiny]

I wonder what you would do if someone were coming after you in order to take your life or the lives of your family members. Would you be willing to watch your family die rather than, if possible, step in and kill the perpetrator? Would you be so willing to die as not to take steps to stop someone from taking your own life? I do not believe that too many people would agree with the stance to sit back and not try to stop someone else from killing any Human Being. Although I agree with you that two wrongs don't make a right, if one side is right and the other side wrong, then I always like to see the righteous side win.

I think we all agree that one must leave one's family out of these discussions. It is not ethical as many of us don't know each other or their families to even comment and "can't throw the first stone" right?

It will always be the women's choice if one likes it or not....

[therising]

I wonder what you would do if someone were coming after you in order to take your life or the lives of your family members. Would you be willing to watch your family die rather than, if possible, step in and kill the perpetrator? Would you be so willing to die as not to take steps to stop someone from taking your own life? I do not believe that too many people would agree with the stance to sit back and not try to stop someone else from killing any Human Being. Although I agree with you that two wrongs don't make a right, if one side is right and the other side wrong, then I always like to see the righteous side win.

Mario Cuomo had the best response for that.

Remember when Mike Dukakis was running, and, in a debate, he was asked (by Bernard Shaw, I think), "If Kitty Dukakis was raped and killed, would you think the murderer should get the death penalty?" Dukakis answered, with a straight face, and showing no emotion "No, because I don't believe in the death penalty." (I'm paraphrasing.)

It made him look terribly cold.

Anyway, someone asked Cuomo the same question about his wife. He said "if that were to happen, I would not be in the right state of mind, to make that decision."

And, of course that's the right answer. If something happened to my wife/mother/daughter, I would want to kill the person. But, I wouldn't be in teh right state of mind.

[Bringthetruth]

How do you think Jesus would feel about the death penalty?

Why won't you make up your own thread on this topic somewhere else, why you like to hijack my threads still amazes me.

[mikenold]

I think we all agree that one must leave one's family out of these discussions. It is not ethical as many of us don't know each other or their families to even comment and "can't throw the first stone" right?

It will always be the women's choice if one likes it or not....

You said:

I don't agree with the death penalty as no one has the right to kill another. Two wrongs never make something right. The death penalty is not a learning experience for the individual.

Let me make this very generic just for you (someone):

I wonder what you (someone) would do if someone (someone else) were coming after you (someone) in order to take your (that persons) life or the lives of your (that persons) family members. Would you (someone) be willing to watch your (that persons) family die rather than, if possible, step in and kill the perpetrator? Would you (someone) be so willing to die as not to take steps to stop someone (someone else) from taking your (that persons) own life? I do not believe that too many people would agree with the stance to sit back and not try to stop someone (someone else) from killing any Human Being. Although I agree with you (someone) that two wrongs don't make a right, if one side is right and the other side wrong, then I always like to see the righteous side win.

Very confusing talking this way in a post, isn’t it? But hopefully now you (someone) will be good enough to answer my questions!

[Bringthetruth]

We in america had a pro-life president the last 8 yrs, has abortions decreased in that span ? NO so what's gonna change if the president is pro-choice ?

You can't legislate morality, but you can change the heart to do the right thing thru the new birth in Christ.

[Steiny]

You said:



Let me make this very generic just for you (someone):

I wonder what you (someone) would do if someone (someone else) were coming after you (someone) in order to take your (that persons) life or the lives of your (that persons) family members. Would you (someone) be willing to watch your (that persons) family die rather than, if possible, step in and kill the perpetrator? Would you (someone) be so willing to die as not to take steps to stop someone (someone else) from taking your (that persons) own life? I do not believe that too many people would agree with the stance to sit back and not try to stop someone (someone else) from killing any Human Being. Although I agree with you (someone) that two wrongs don't make a right, if one side is right and the other side wrong, then I always like to see the righteous side win.

Very confusing talking this way in a post, isn’t it? But hopefully now you (someone) will be good enough to answer my questions!

I guess I love women and all people and lifeforms to ever force them to do anything. It is there bodies and their choice. Religion often tries to control people and things too much. We are all too materialistic as it is....

[Ragin]

Why won't you make up your own thread on this topic somewhere else, why you like to hijack my threads still amazes me.

Once you bring up the topic of aborton, the death penalty is bound to follow

[mikenold]

I guess I love women and all people and lifeforms to ever force them to do anything. It is there bodies and their choice. Religion often tries to control people and things too much. We are all too materialistic as it is....

I get it. You can't answer a straight forward question. Don't worry I know an extreme Liberal like you has a problem making decisions. It has got to be an awful way to live life in fear of making a decision because someone else might not like your answer. Too bad, because no one will ever know where you stand when you just come back with some kind of gibberish instead of being able to debate in public.

[Bringthetruth]

Once you bring up the topic of aborton, the death penalty is bound to follow

Fine, but with their own thread.
What it does is taking the thread all around the corner with no mods stopping it from happening.

[Steiny]

I get it. You can't answer a straight forward question. Don't worry I know an extreme Liberal like you has a problem making decisions. It has got to be an awful way to live life in fear of making a decision because someone else might not like your answer. Too bad, because no one will ever know where you stand when you just come back with some kind of gibberish instead of being able to debate in public.

This is not a face to face public debate, sorry.

Where is the moderator when you need them. This is so wrong. This forum is getting really bad with all of these personal attacks and no education! I will never seek to this level (above)........sorry.

Many stones are being thrown here.

[mikenold]

This is not a face to face public debate, sorry.

Where is the moderator when you need them. This is so wrong. This forum is getting really bad with all of these personal attacks and no education! I will never seek to this level (above)........sorry.

Many stones are being thrown here.

What is your purpose in posting here? If you don't want anyone to answer your post then why do you quote others? This board is called "Speakupwny". People post here to speak up about topics that are posted here. If we could not address each other individually, then we may as well just have a Bulletin Board. Then it would be called Bulletinboardwny.

[therising]

Why won't you make up your own thread on this topic somewhere else, why you like to hijack my threads still amazes me.

Listen up, you sniveling little bitch: I don't think my question of "What would Jesus think of the death penalty?" could really be called hijacking.

Now, you owe me an apology.

[Steiny]

I am amazed of how nasty one can be online. Hopefully, many of you are not this mean and nasty in person. One can be compassionate and hope right?

[mesue]

Why won't you make up your own thread on this topic somewhere else, why you like to hijack my threads still amazes me.
You do this every time you don't like what you read. Are you going to put him on faux ignore as well? That list must be getting very long :rolleyes:

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

In the case of whether or not to Abort a Child, Jesus would choose life for the Child. God's commandment, Thou shalt not kill, is still God's commandment and his Son followed all His commandments. Any other choice would be wrong.

Would a plague brought about by God, that killed the first born child of every family, be considered a bunch of very late term abortions?

[mesue]

Would a plague brought about by God, that killed the first born child of every family, be considered a bunch of very late term abortions?
Would the killing of males under the age of 2 years old be considered late term abortions?

[mikenold]

Would a plague brought about by God, that killed the first born child of every family, be considered a bunch of very late term abortions?

Abortion from dictionary.com - any of various surgical methods for terminating a pregnancy.

So, First Born Child disqualifies talking about them as Abortions.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

So, First Born Child disqualifies talking about them as Abortions.

So, then the above mentioned plague would have to be considered murder.

God's commandment, Thou shalt not kill, is still God's commandment and his Son followed all His commandments.

Oops.

Originally Posted by mesue

Would the killing of males under the age of 2 years old be considered late term abortions?

Nope, that would have to be murder too. Dictionary.com said so.

How come dictionary.com didn't refer to abortion as murder? Does that mean that it's not? I think we need a congressional ban on dictionary.com.

[mikenold]

So, then the above mentioned plague would have to be considered murder.

It was God's judgment on Egypt and their Pharaoh

How come dictionary.com didn't refer to abortion as murder? Does that mean that it's not? I think we need a congressional ban on dictionary.com.

Is everything to you either murder or not murder. Some times People die for other reasons than murder.

[Steiny]

I am proud to be Egyptian and directly related to the Pharaohs. Something I am currently exploring with my Grandmother and Mom. I am facinated with Egyptianlogy and the Mummy movies. My mummy too! :)

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

Is everything to you either murder or not murder.

The next time I see an abortion protest, I'll ask that question of the participants (it's usually hard to do amidst the yelling and screaming, but I'll try). That's what I see on the signs from the pro-life side. Isn't that the beef? Abortion is murder. If so, I guess you have to define murder.

Hang on, I'll check with dictionary.com. Although that didn't work out very well last time.

Some times People die for other reasons than murder.

Yes, they do. I wonder if there's something that could be done to stop some of the reasons that some people die?

[mikenold]

The next time I see an abortion protest, I'll ask that question of the participants (it's usually hard to do amidst the yelling and screaming, but I'll try). That's what I see on the signs from the pro-life side. Isn't that the beef? Abortion is murder. If so, I guess you have to define murder.

Hang on, I'll check with dictionary.com. Although that didn't work out very well last time.



Yes, they do. I wonder if there's something that could be done to stop some of the reasons that some people die?

According to Dictionary.com Murder is:

The killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson.

I would not classify Abortion as murder according to this lawful definition. However, if the law were changed so would the definition. Also, I consider Abortion the killing of an innocent Baby.

According to Dictionary.com Kill is:

To deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.

Abortion causes the death of an innocent life.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

The killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson.

What happened to God's law, this states US law?

I guess now you have to define "human being".

[mikenold]

What happened to God's law, this states US law?

I guess now you have to define "human being".

Bill Clinton had the classic. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is." I am not confused by these type of things. Let me be very clear, I know it is wrong to kill a baby (I believe that life (baby) begins at conception). I cannot make others think like me. But I will vote for those that do think like me.

[therising]

According to Dictionary.com

I thought there's only one Book you use as reference. :)

[Dumbfounded]

I wonder what you would do if someone were coming after you in order to take your life or the lives of your family members. Would you be willing to watch your family die rather than, if possible, step in and kill the perpetrator? Would you be so willing to die as not to take steps to stop someone from taking your own life? I do not believe that too many people would agree with the stance to sit back and not try to stop someone else from killing any Human Being. Although I agree with you that two wrongs don't make a right, if one side is right and the other side wrong, then I always like to see the righteous side win.



Let's "stretch our imaginations a little " and
remember our brothers and sisters who are already ALIVE
but are barely or never able defend themselves from harm.

Children;Infants and toddlers, mentally retarded, severely physically handicapped, beaten and molested by all kinds of monsters most who would have been screened;Identified by a society that focused LESS on the UNBORN and MORE on the living.

Orphans who are too old to be "cute widdle babys" but still too young to fend for themselves, caught in a system, alone while capable, responsible (some) adults are busy carrying signs and singing hymns in front of abortion clinics

Elderly who are basically forgotten by most of our society, existing in a living death, often abused and neglected when pro-lifers could switch their priorities from fetuses to living, breathing human beings;Many of them FAMILY and FRIENDS.

IF Christ truly existed and his "adventures" are true,
then he was a brilliant man of peace and love who would never condemn women and their abortion providers for excercising their God-given free will.

Why question your Dad's decision?
Especially when Dad, or God is in charge of EVERYTHING?

Forget fetuses
Remember the living.
Take care and love the living as most of your hypocritical religions brag about yet rarely act upon.


Abortions are a sad occurence, ESP when the child is still alive
but the PRIVATE concerns of women and physicians
are just that:PRIVATE-No one's business.

Take care of the children, the sick, the handicapped, the elderly, those who have no one to speak up for them-Those who's lives on earth are a day-to-day hellish, depressing existence.

See, Christ cared for the living;Healing the sick and all that.

The abortion issue is just another useless fight/game upon which selfish, religious fundamentalists are using Christ's name-
Without his express and written permission.
Seriously:

If pro-lifers and there's plenty of them-If pro lifers took their seemingly endless supply of screaming energy and chanelled it into helping those already BORN-They'd (pro-lifers) truly WOULD
be following God's work. Christ's work.

Offering kindness, succor;Aid and help to those already born in the very least would be an act of kindness;The "right" thing to do.

"Stupid stuff," life a pro-lifer who wastes time and money screaming nonsense helping out a poor family in need, donating their time to various charities that REALLY make a difference.
As in "Christian charity" (and other "exalted religions")


Blindly screaming, carrying signs around and fetuses in formaldehyde does not and has not made this world a better place.
For anyone already walking, limping and crawling on this earth in need of aid the pro-lifers could easily provide.

[mikenold]

I thought there's only one Book you use as reference. :)

Actually, there is only one Book that I believe as the final truth. The Bible doesn't give us Calculus, but I learned it from a book nonetheless. ;)

[mikenold]

Let's "stretch our imaginations a little " and
remember our brothers and sisters who are already ALIVE
but are barely or never able defend themselves from harm.

Children;Infants and toddlers, mentally retarded, severely physically handicapped, beaten and molested by all kinds of monsters most who would have been screened;Identified by a society that focused LESS on the UNBORN and MORE on the living.

Orphans who are too old to be "cute widdle babys" but still too young to fend for themselves, caught in a system, alone while capable, responsible (some) adults are busy carrying signs and singing hymns in front of abortion clinics

Elderly who are basically forgotten by most of our society, existing in a living death, often abused and neglected when pro-lifers could switch their priorities from fetuses to living, breathing human beings;Many of them FAMILY and FRIENDS.

Are you saying that those people that are pro-life do not care for the living? I would be willing to bet that those that are part of the pro-life group are also out helping the living that has needs.

IF Christ truly existed and his "adventures" are true,
then he was a brilliant man of peace and love who would never condemn women and their abortion providers for excercising their God-given free will.

God (Christ) does condemn Sin. People condemn themselves. God will not force our will, but in the end he will judge us for the choices we make.

Abortions are a sad occurence, ESP when the child is still alive
but the PRIVATE concerns of women and physicians
are just that:PRIVATE-No one's business.

Mercifully, Aborted Babies are all in heaven with God. But, this is the only good that comes out of an Abortion. Don’t fool yourself, the women that have Abortions carry the hurt and guilt for their entire life. The Doctors could be focused on some other health concern of the living. What about the Father? This might turn out to be the only opportunity at having a Child that has been taken away due to the selfishness of the woman making the “choice”. There are consequences for all of our actions. One day we will all be judged for the choices we make. I for one know that I can care for the living, but also have a heart to care for the unborn as well. I hope you can understand my point of view.

[Bringthetruth]

Mike New Testament Christian's are supposed to Judge those who are already in the body of christ(the church).

God will judge those outside of the church.

Can anybody show me where Jesus didn't allow mankind to commit sins.... abominations ?

When people were sacrificing their children to their Molech as religious rites, Almighty God told his own people (the children of Israel)don't immulate the ways of Molech.

God never told other people that he couldn't sacrifice and kill their own children.

It's an abomination to God , for anyone to sacrifice and kill children, but that doesn't mean they can't and won't do it.

If the law changes(roe vs wade) then we as believers have a case against unbelievers who kill children in the womb.

[mesue]

Mike New Testament Christian's are supposed to Judge those who are already in the body of christ(the church).

...
Paul said, in the New Testament
"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" (1 Corinthians 6:3)

[Bringthetruth]

Rick Warren by hosting that forum talk in his conservative church could easily be used by the New Worlders to get evangelicals as well as Catholics unto the New World Order bandwagon and he either doesn't know it and is therefore deceived, or he does know it, which would be worse.

[Bringthetruth]

Couldn't this forum been held at a nuetral site ?

[mikenold]

Mike New Testament Christian's are supposed to Judge those who are already in the body of christ(the church).

God will judge those outside of the church.

Can anybody show me where Jesus didn't allow mankind to commit sins.... abominations ?

When people were sacrificing their children to their Molech as religious rites, Almighty God told his own people (the children of Israel)don't immulate the ways of Molech.

God never told other people that he couldn't sacrifice and kill their own children.

It's an abomination to God , for anyone to sacrifice and kill children, but that doesn't mean they can't and won't do it.

If the law changes(roe vs wade) then we as believers have a case against unbelievers who kill children in the womb.

I agree with what you say here. But just because God is at this time allows sin in the world does not mean that it will not be judged one day. Also, I do not have to accept or agree with any sin. It is not judgement me to say that I disagree with a sin and believe that it should not be done. Even though one day we will judge Angels, we are called to exhort the bretheren when we know of sin in their lives, but we do not judge them. Two verses below:

Hebrews:3:13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Romans:14:13: Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by Bringthetruth

Couldn't this forum been held at a nuetral site ?

Couldn't this forum not have been held at all? It was useless.

[mesue]

Rick Warren by hosting that forum talk in his conservative church could easily be used by the New Worlders to get evangelicals as well as Catholics unto the New World Order bandwagon and he either doesn't know it and is therefore deceived, or he does know it, which would be worse.
Rick Warren conservative? Now THAT's funny! His teaching is so watered down he makes New Agers look spiritual.

[Bringthetruth]

Couldn't this forum not have been held at all? It was useless.

I was referring to the obama mccain forum talk, being held in saddleback church

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by Bringthetruth

I was referring to the obama mccain forum talk, being held in saddleback church

So was I.

[Bannister]

Couldn't this forum been held at a nuetral site ?

What obligation is Rick Warren under to be neutral? He's not a journalist. He's a pastor. He wanted some questions answered and the candidates agreed to sit down with him.

He would have asked the same questions no matter where he met them. I don't think the venue had anything to do with it. I can't believe either of the candidates really believed it would be neutral going into the process.

[Foot Fungus]

It doesn't take a rocket scientists to figure out what questions were going to be asked there.

Obama's problem is that he is trying to be too cerebral in addressing questions. That's his problem getting the average Joe to jump on the bandwagon. The American people want a simple folksy story or a quick soundbite, it's about all that most can handle.

Unfortunately folksy stories and soundbites don't solve problems.

Let Obama come up with a folksy story that starts like this and he'll get their attention:

On a sunny day, eight years ago, there was a man named Georgie...

Just don't let him go bowling again...

[Bringthetruth]

It just shows you to what length the neo-cons will go to not allow Obama a chance to win.

The evangelical world has been duped the last two elections, who's to say they won't get duped again.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Fool me three times consider me a fool !

[mikenold]

It just shows you to what length the neo-cons will go to not allow Obama a chance to win.

The evangelical world has been duped the last two elections, who's to say they won't get duped again.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Fool me three times consider me a fool !

Obama was not forced to attend. He had already said he would not debate McCain in a Town Hall forum when McCain wanted to do that. I looks like he knew what he was doing all along. He should not have gone to this forum either. He is not very good at speaking when he doesn't know the topic beforehand. McCain wiped the floor with him. I would be willing to say you will not see him debate McCain again unless forced to do so.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

Obama was not forced to attend. He had already said he would not debate McCain in a Town Hall forum when McCain wanted to do that. I looks like he knew what he was doing all along. He should not have gone to this forum either. He is not very good at speaking when he doesn't know the topic beforehand. McCain wiped the floor with him. I would be willing to say you will not see him debate McCain again unless forced to do so.

The "Faith Forum" was not a debate. When actual debates do happen, I think they will be pretty interesting.

Using the post above, I'd be careful in what I was wishing for. I've seen McCain in debates, it's not as good as when he's sitting one on one being asked questions that a simpleton should know he's going to be asked. He's got a pretty good deer in the headlights stare when he gets stumped. Just remember, he may be able to answer questions easily when it comes to either Jesus or his military service, but when it comes down to the issues of this country, he tends to get confused and he likes to pander (he panders to the Jesus crowd too). That will be a mistake as the sound bite answers will be challenged. Watch.

[mikenold]

The "Faith Forum" was not a debate. When actual debates do happen, I think they will be pretty interesting.

Using the post above, I'd be careful in what I was wishing for. I've seen McCain in debates, it's not as good as when he's sitting one on one being asked questions that a simpleton should know he's going to be asked. He's got a pretty good deer in the headlights stare when he gets stumped. Just remember, he may be able to answer questions easily when it comes to either Jesus or his military service, but when it comes down to the issues of this country, he tends to get confused and he likes to pander (he panders to the Jesus crowd too). That will be a mistake as the sound bite answers will be challenged. Watch.

You are right, the Faith Forum was not a debate, but I did not call it one. I actually said it was a forum. The debate I mentioned was in reference to the town hall debate that McCain wanted to have with Obama, that Obama refused to attend. I guess we will have to wait and see how McCain and Obama do in a debate if there is one between the two. I do not think that McCain will be confused in a debate with Obama. Although I have heard McCain stumble on a question here or there. I have also heard Obama do the same, especially when it comes to Foreign Policy and Abortion. Obama seems to pander to the environmentalists and Liberal Left. I think it would be a good thing to see how both of these men respond in a debate type of venue.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

The debate I mentioned was in reference to the town hall debate that McCain wanted to have with Obama, that Obama refused to attend.

I wouldn't either. It makes no sense, there are three debates scheduled. Why should he let the opponent dictate a debate schedule? That would be dumb.

I guess we will have to wait and see how McCain and Obama do in a debate if there is one between the two. I do not think that McCain will be confused in a debate with Obama.

In all honesty, I think Obama's chomping at the bit to debate McCain, and that's exactly why he's leaving the debates for election time, not before conventions happen.

Although I have heard McCain stumble on a question here or there.

Yep.

I have also heard Obama do the same, especially when it comes to Foreign Policy and Abortion.

Obama's problem is that he's thinking too hard to come up with the intellectual answer. He needs to dumb down. As always, abortion should not be an issue.

Obama seems to pander to the environmentalists and Liberal Left.

If you read press and watch news, you might see that the Liberal Left and environmentalists aren't feeling very pandered to by Obama of late.

I think it would be a good thing to see how both of these men respond in a debate type of venue.

We haven't seen it in a while, but I have a feeling that the debates this year are going to yield another of those defining campaign moments. Who it comes from might surprise you. Time will tell.

[mikenold]

Obama's problem is that he's thinking too hard to come up with the intellectual answer. He needs to dumb down. As always, abortion should not be an issue.

We haven't seen it in a while, but I have a feeling that the debates this year are going to yield another of those defining campaign moments. Who it comes from might surprise you. Time will tell.

I know what you mean, the conservative Republicans are too dumb and confused to answer questions, and the Liberal Democrats are too intellectual and thinking too hard to answer the questions. :rolleyes: Yep, this has to be the way everyone sees these things. :rolleyes:
Abortion is not an issue for those that do not care much about human life.

I too believe that the debates, if done in a fair and balanced way, will be a defining moment. ;)

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

I know what you mean, the conservative Republicans are too dumb and confused to answer questions, and the Liberal Democrats are too intellectual and thinking too hard to answer the questions. Yep, this has to be the way everyone sees these things.

Actually what I was saying is that Obama overthinks his answers. Personally I think anyone that identifies with either of these parties is dumb and confused.

I wish I could be pandered to that easily and led around by my nose.

We should start a reality TV show for each side of the aisle. A competition to see who can fight to be declared the biggest, bestest, baddest Conservative or Liberal. You earn points by quoting the talking points that the parties and talking head surrogates want to bury in your brain.

The winner gets to speak at their respective campaign as the keynote speaker.

While everyone is glued to their TV sets, the country can spiral it's way down the toilet.

Now that's reality.

Abortion is not an issue for those that do not care much about human life.

One issue voting is what has destroyed this country and divided it. Because one chooses to not vote on an issue that has no bearing of the running of the country does not mean that the individual has less of a concern for human life than those that continually beat the abortion drum. As for me, if you actually knew me, you might choke on the above quote.

BTW: As posted in the other thread about this CHURCH RELATED topic, I still haven't heard the God Squad tell us what they are doing to stem the tide of abortion. I'm just interested. You never know, if there's something that's doing some good out there that I'm not familiar with that someone is involved in with regard to adoption vs. abortion, I just may join in to help.

I too believe that the debates, if done in a fair and balanced way, will be a defining moment.

That just about says it all.

[mikenold]

One issue voting is what has destroyed this country and divided it. Because one chooses to not vote on an issue that has no bearing of the running of the country does not mean that the individual has less of a concern for human life than those that continually beat the abortion drum. As for me, if you actually knew me, you might choke on the above quote.

I guess I may have misunderstood the way you posed the issue. I thought you were saying that Abortion should be off the table. But this is important to me when picking a President. Presidents give us our Supreme Court justices.

BTW: As posted in the other thread about this CHURCH RELATED topic, I still haven't heard the God Squad tell us what they are doing to stem the tide of abortion. I'm just interested. You never know, if there's something that's doing some good out there that I'm not familiar with that someone is involved in with regard to adoption vs. abortion, I just may join in to help.

I know that there are organizations out there (none specific that I could mention at this time) that offer Adoption to Women who are considering Abortion. I also belong to a Church where the Bible is taught and because of this Abortion would not be an option for most of those that attend.

[Sylvan]

The country is over-populated. Part of the solution to fixing the countries problems is to reduce the number of births.

You christian pro-lifers are only adding to the problem.

Couples who wish to adopt could adopt children born to single parents, and dysfunctional parents who either get euthanized, sterilized, or voluteer to give their child to a proper home.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

I guess I may have misunderstood the way you posed the issue. I thought you were saying that Abortion should be off the table.

Actually, you got that part right, in a country with a separation of church and state, abortion should not be an issue in a political campaign. The only reason that it is....votes. And they are incredibly easy to get in that milieu.

I know that there are organizations out there (none specific that I could mention at this time) that offer Adoption to Women who are considering Abortion.

There you go, find out more info and lend a hand.

I also belong to a Church where the Bible is taught and because of this Abortion would not be an option for most of those that attend.

That's about the same answer that I got from pro-life protesters. They would routinely say, "I pray". Maybe if they practiced what they preach, a better end might be realized. Praying won't solve the problem. Help and support to those that are considering it an option will help.

Are you saying that the Church where the bible is taught would turn someone away that had either had an abortion, or was considering an abortion?

[mikenold]

Actually, you got that part right, in a country with a separation of church and state, abortion should not be an issue in a political campaign. The only reason that it is....votes. And they are incredibly easy to get in that milieu.

As previously stated, until the President is not allowed to pick Supreme Court Justices, Abortion is an issue.

That's about the same answer that I got from pro-life protesters. They would routinely say, "I pray". Maybe if they practiced what they preach, a better end might be realized. Praying won't solve the problem. Help and support to those that are considering it an option will help.

Are you saying that the Church where the bible is taught would turn someone away that had either had an abortion, or was considering an abortion?

First of all, when it is taught what God has to say about dating, courtship, marriage, and family matters, a woman would be less likely to be in a situation where Abortion would even be an issue. But even so, when a person knows what God has to say about Abortion, they would not want to have one. I am not saying that this does not happen, just that it is less likely.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

First of all, when it is taught what God has to say about dating, courtship, marriage, and family matters, a woman would be less likely to be in a situation where Abortion would even be an issue. But even so, when a person knows what God has to say about Abortion, they would not want to have one. I am not saying that this does not happen, just that it is less likely.

Without trying to put words in your mouth (or post), are you saying that any woman that has an abortion is an evil, Godless person?

What you find when you get close to the situation is that many women that consider an abortion don't "want" (your word) to have the abortion, but do not have the proper guidance and information of other options. Many would opt out given the chance.

What you learn when placed in a situation where the issue of abortion confronts you in a personal, face to face way, you realize that there's an awful lot of women that you would have never imagined would have gone through that procedure that have. It's an eye opener.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that in your church there is one (or more) church attendees with a dark little secret, yet they still love God, and have many deep regrets. Seriously.

[mikenold]

Without trying to put words in your mouth (or post), are you saying that any woman that has an abortion is an evil, Godless person?

What you find when you get close to the situation is that many women that consider an abortion don't "want" (your word) to have the abortion, but do not have the proper guidance and information of other options. Many would opt out given the chance.

What you learn when placed in a situation where the issue of abortion confronts you in a personal, face to face way, you realize that there's an awful lot of women that you would have never imagined would have gone through that procedure that have. It's an eye opener.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that in your church there is one (or more) church attendees with a dark little secret, yet they still love God, and have many deep regrets. Seriously.

No, I would not say that any Woman that had an Abortion was an evil, godless person. I would say though that someone who is evil or godless would be more likely to have an Abortion than someone who isn't.
But you are absolutely correct that there are church attendees that have had Abortions. Although, I already said that I was sure that it does happen, just not as much as elsewhere. You see, if you have a relationship with God first, you would want to do things that please him, which would keep you from situations that could lead to pregnancy out of wedlock in the first place. And yet if you were to become pregnant, you would want the baby to live, even if you would give it up for Adoption. My Church would provide guidance, not only to the woman involved, but the family as well, if they would be willing to accept it of course.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

Absolutely correct, but I already said that I was sure that it does happen, just not as much as elsewhere. You see, if you have a relationship with God first, you would want to do things that please him, which would keep you from situations that could lead to pregnancy out of wedlock in the first place. And yet if you were to become pregnant, you would want the baby to live, even if you would give it up for Adoption. My Church would provide guidance, not only to the woman involved, but the family as well, if they would be willing to accept it of course.

I'll give this to you as I see it, and have seen it (there's a lot more, but this is a great example).

What was the problem with the Spring Of Life demonstrations and what is the problem with the pro-life side in helping to solve this problem? There's two reasons, religion and American human nature.

American people on the whole are a defiant bunch (that's a good thing). We are now and always have been. That's why we have this loverly piece of the rock we call home. A large group of people with scary pictures and fetuses in jars screaming at generally already conflicted people isn't going to change anyone's mind on anything. Another group across the street screaming back doesn't make it better. Take your worst day and multiply it by one hundred, then add in a bunch of screaming people pulling at you, cursing you etc. What are you going to think? More than likely, you're going to get through the cacophony of noise and insults, pushing, grabbing and shoving, reach your destination, relieve yourself of the burden that put you there in the first place and hopefully have learned your lesson not to get in that situation again. It's either that or being that defiant American, someone's going to get the same treatment back in spades.

Does anyone really believe that any of that crap helped anyone aside from politicians that found a new voting block?

Maybe the pro-lifers have gone about this in the wrong way. Did anyone ever think that maybe this ISN'T the right time to be introducing principles and ideals of faith into someone's life? I know a lot of the thinking in the protest lines was that these people are in a weakened state, therefore easier to convert. I was told these things

If you really want to reach someone that might have a chance of foregoing the abortion for adoption, try leaving the religion end out. Try and introduce the other end, (and not from a feeling of wrong doing way, but a feeling of doing good) the people that would love to have a child yet for some reason cannot. No screaming. No yelling. No crowds. This can be done through very simple outreach. Want to do even better? Start from the end result and work forward, you'll find that things can work out pretty well. Find those people that would love to be parents to this child whose life is on the fence. It's not hard. Way too many people are turned down for adoption in this country that are incredibly good people with the means to support a family just fine.

Some very good friends of mine who could not have children and wanted a family very badly, yet were turned down for adoption through the orphanage and refugee route (let alone the exorbitant cost of this, which is a travesty on it's own), decided to approach a local clinic, letting them know how badly they wanted a family and knowing that there were people there that were going to abort a baby that could be loved as their own. They knew that it was a longshot, there's still process that has to be gone through, but as it turned out, the only obstacle after months of process seemed to be finding the woman that would carry their child. Through much dialogue, non-religious by the way, they are now proud parents of four children that if they had not approached the situation in a caring, informative way, they would not have had and the children would not have been born.

Here's the double, super duper, extra special bonus, the women that delivered these children saw the joy in the new parents faces and were able to see the good in their decision. If you can find a better win-win situation than that, I'll buy you a sawdust filled teddy bear (it's good enough for lawn fetes, so it's good enough for me).

That last sentence (minus the teddy bear) is what people thinking about aborting a baby need to see, not religion, although afterward, most do find some type of relationship with God. And without having it rammed down their throats.

I can tell you with a great smile on my face that these four beautiful children are all very healthy, happy, intelligent and this will make you happy, active members in their community church.

This Sunday, after mass has ended, approach your priest and ask him what your church is doing in trying to back end the abortion problem by finding adoptive parents first instead of saying "this is wrong". If he can't give you an answer, ask him why not and how can we change this.

Right now, I have a great picture in my head of a very loving family of six and it's one of the greatest feelings that I could ever have. For some reason, I think God is smiling as much as I am, and it was accomplished without any religious pretext whatsoever.

It's no cake walk by any means, but if this example can be accomplished, why can't more? When there are enough people in America that will vote on the issue of abortion and be able to put their guy in the White House, why are we reading about the downside of abortion instead of the upside that abortions were stopped by adoption? It shouldn't take the Supreme Court to solve the problem. If that's the solution, then the very large group seeking that solution is hypocritical and lazy.

[Bringthetruth]

I believe many memebers in the christian church has had abortion out of shame and embarrassment even though they knew the truth.


Prominent church families children have got in trouble with sex and either paid for the girl to go or sent their own child for an abortion out of shame.

[mikenold]

I'll give this to you as I see it, and have seen it (there's a lot more, but this is a great example).

What was the problem with the Spring Of Life demonstrations and what is the problem with the pro-life side in helping to solve this problem? There's two reasons, religion and American human nature.

American people on the whole are a defiant bunch (that's a good thing). We are now and always have been. That's why we have this loverly piece of the rock we call home. A large group of people with scary pictures and fetuses in jars screaming at generally already conflicted people isn't going to change anyone's mind on anything. Another group across the street screaming back doesn't make it better. Take your worst day and multiply it by one hundred, then add in a bunch of screaming people pulling at you, cursing you etc. What are you going to think? More than likely, you're going to get through the cacophony of noise and insults, pushing, grabbing and shoving, reach your destination, relieve yourself of the burden that put you there in the first place and hopefully have learned your lesson not to get in that situation again. It's either that or being that defiant American, someone's going to get the same treatment back in spades.

Does anyone really believe that any of that crap helped anyone aside from politicians that found a new voting block?

Maybe the pro-lifers have gone about this in the wrong way. Did anyone ever think that maybe this ISN'T the right time to be introducing principles and ideals of faith into someone's life? I know a lot of the thinking in the protest lines was that these people are in a weakened state, therefore easier to convert. I was told these things

If you really want to reach someone that might have a chance of foregoing the abortion for adoption, try leaving the religion end out. Try and introduce the other end, (and not from a feeling of wrong doing way, but a feeling of doing good) the people that would love to have a child yet for some reason cannot. No screaming. No yelling. No crowds. This can be done through very simple outreach. Want to do even better? Start from the end result and work forward, you'll find that things can work out pretty well. Find those people that would love to be parents to this child whose life is on the fence. It's not hard. Way too many people are turned down for adoption in this country that are incredibly good people with the means to support a family just fine.

Some very good friends of mine who could not have children and wanted a family very badly, yet were turned down for adoption through the orphanage and refugee route (let alone the exorbitant cost of this, which is a travesty on it's own), decided to approach a local clinic, letting them know how badly they wanted a family and knowing that there were people there that were going to abort a baby that could be loved as their own. They knew that it was a longshot, there's still process that has to be gone through, but as it turned out, the only obstacle after months of process seemed to be finding the woman that would carry their child. Through much dialogue, non-religious by the way, they are now proud parents of four children that if they had not approached the situation in a caring, informative way, they would not have had and the children would not have been born.

Here's the double, super duper, extra special bonus, the women that delivered these children saw the joy in the new parents faces and were able to see the good in their decision. If you can find a better win-win situation than that, I'll buy you a sawdust filled teddy bear (it's good enough for lawn fetes, so it's good enough for me).

That last sentence (minus the teddy bear) is what people thinking about aborting a baby need to see, not religion, although afterward, most do find some type of relationship with God. And without having it rammed down their throats.

I can tell you with a great smile on my face that these four beautiful children are all very healthy, happy, intelligent and this will make you happy, active members in their community church.

This Sunday, after mass has ended, approach your priest and ask him what your church is doing in trying to back end the abortion problem by finding adoptive parents first instead of saying "this is wrong". If he can't give you an answer, ask him why not and how can we change this.

Right now, I have a great picture in my head of a very loving family of six and it's one of the greatest feelings that I could ever have. For some reason, I think God is smiling as much as I am, and it was accomplished without any religious pretext whatsoever.

It's no cake walk by any means, but if this example can be accomplished, why can't more? When there are enough people in America that will vote on the issue of abortion and be able to put their guy in the White House, why are we reading about the downside of abortion instead of the upside that abortions were stopped by adoption? It shouldn't take the Supreme Court to solve the problem. If that's the solution, then the very large group seeking that solution is hypocritical and lazy.

What an uplifting story. I am very happy that this is how this adoption story worked out. I believe that this example could work out in many more cases given the chance. My Church does have many outreach ministries. Wouldn't it be great if there was a way to get those babies that can be saved to a good home that is happy to have them. I will pray that the Lord would let my church get an opportunity like this. I will keep my eyes and ears open for a chance to do what I can when the opportunity arises.

[Foot Fungus]

Originally Posted by mikenold

What an uplifting story. I am very happy that this is how this adoption story worked out.

It was a situation of bad (caring people that could not have a family on their own)+bad (a good bunch of people deemed for some reason inappropriate to adopt children)+bad (unwanted pregnancies)=good (all parties end up happy, 4 children that are happy and alive). 3 bads equaling a good is a rarity in itself, and it was accomplished with nothing but compassion and open dialogue.

I believe that this example could work out in many more cases given the chance.

It has.

My Church does have many outreach ministries. Wouldn't it be great if there was a way to get those babies that can be saved to a good home that is happy to have them.

There are ways. Unfortunately, the avenues currently being generally taken are divisive in nature. That helps no one.

I will pray that the Lord would let my church get an opportunity like this. I will keep my eyes and ears open for a chance to do what I can when the opportunity arises.

Just remember the last few sentences. That's where the solution lies. I'll paste it again, just for reference, because in those sentences is a good initial plan to cutting the number of abortions performed yearly by a large number without the vitriol.

When there are enough people in America that will vote on the issue of abortion and be able to put their guy in the White House, why are we reading about the downside of abortion instead of the upside that abortions were stopped by adoption? It shouldn't take the Supreme Court to solve the problem. If that's the solution, then the very large group seeking that solution is hypocritical and lazy.

Instead of looking at the other side as an enemy, both sides should be able to work together. It used to work that way in this country. Power just got more important, and more expensive.

You'll have a hard time finding anyone that wants to perform abortions. I'm sure that there's some sick SOB that gets into that, there always is, but most people working in the clinics and hospitals would rather see as many children born, happy and healthy as anyone.