Do non believers go to heaven ?

[Bringthetruth]

The Old Testament teaches life after death, and that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol. The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, Luke 16:19-31 shows Hades to be divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was, and a place of torment where the rich man was. The word hell in verse 23 is not “Gehenna” (place of eternal torment) but “Hades” (place of the dead). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called Paradise (Luke 23:43). Between these two districts of Hades is “a great gulf fixed” (Luke 16:26).

Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death (Acts 2:27, 31; cf. Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).

Today, when a believer dies, he is “present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15).

The unsaved dead will not be raised until over a thousand year later, Rev 20:11-15.

"And whatsoever was not found written in the book of life was cast in the lake of fire."

The lake of fire, not heaven.

[speaker]

Is that exactly 1000 years?

[mesue]

Is that exactly 1000 years?
No. The millennial reign of Christ will be 1,000 years. Satan will be bound for 1,000 years. After that is the battle of all battles where Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire forever. There will be "unsaved" people in Heaven. They will be judged by their works at the Great White throne Judgment. Some teach the false notion that all who go before the Great White Throne Judgment will go to Hell. This is not so. Some people have different dispensations than those in the Church Age. We are currently toward the end of the Church Age.
For right now, and until the end of the church age, one needs to accept Jesus' work at the Cross of Calvary to go to Heaven.
Steroids talking? No, it's the Holy Spirit that indwells teaching me things. He'll teach you the same, just accept Jesus as Savior.
I hafta go ...

[mesue]

Is that exactly 1000 years?
To the minute? Maybe.

[Dumbfounded]

When I read Dante's 'Inferno' and got to the part where all those born before Christ had to live in Limbo for eternity, I thought,

"that's really not fair! Its not their fault when they were born and why should the GOOD people born at
"the wrong time" spend eternity in a grey, lifeless zone of apathy?"

(I did think something to that effect)

And all those "primitive tribes across the globe, the ones the missionaries didn't reach with the word of THEIR God? Or the "primitives" who rejected the Christian God? They're not going to Heaven?
What about deaf and/or blind people not accepting God?

Does he make certain exemptions and exceptions on his HOH (Heaven Or Hell) form he fills out for each and every one of us?!







Question: This Biblical thing about the dead rising: Are they talking about ZOMBIES, that rise from the grave and eat the living, just like in the movies?
Because if dead people rise, they'll be slow and shuffling just like most zombies in the zombie films because their joints and muscles get kind of stiff.

Not making fun, but from a purely medical point of view, how can the dead risen from the grave threaten people?

[mikenold]

The Old Testament teaches life after death, and that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol. The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, Luke 16:19-31 shows Hades to be divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was, and a place of torment where the rich man was. The word hell in verse 23 is not “Gehenna” (place of eternal torment) but “Hades” (place of the dead). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called Paradise (Luke 23:43). Between these two districts of Hades is “a great gulf fixed” (Luke 16:26).

Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death (Acts 2:27, 31; cf. Ephesians 4:9). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).

Today, when a believer dies, he is “present with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-9). When an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13-15).

The unsaved dead will not be raised until over a thousand year later, Rev 20:11-15.

"And whatsoever was not found written in the book of life was cast in the lake of fire."

The lake of fire, not heaven.

Very concise and explains the situation well. I must say that I agree completely!:)

[mikenold]

When I read Dante's 'Inferno' and got to the part where all those born before Christ had to live in Limbo for eternity, I thought,

"that's really not fair! Its not their fault when they were born and why should the GOOD people born at
"the wrong time" spend eternity in a grey, lifeless zone of apathy?"

(I did think something to that effect)

And all those "primitive tribes across the globe, the ones the missionaries didn't reach with the word of THEIR God? Or the "primitives" who rejected the Christian God? They're not going to Heaven?
What about deaf and/or blind people not accepting God?

Does he make certain exemptions and exceptions on his HOH (Heaven Or Hell) form he fills out for each and every one of us?!

Question: This Biblical thing about the dead rising: Are they talking about ZOMBIES, that rise from the grave and eat the living, just like in the movies?
Because if dead people rise, they'll be slow and shuffling just like most zombies in the zombie films because their joints and muscles get kind of stiff.

Not making fun, but from a purely medical point of view, how can the dead risen from the grave threaten people?

The Bible does not mention Limbo or Pergatory even once. It does mention Hell (New Testament-23 and Old Testament-32) and Heaven (New Testament-277 and Old Testament-414).

As for all those "primitive tribes across the globe, the ones the missionaries didn't reach with the word of THEIR God?

Each person is born with the knowledge of good and evil, I cannot speak for God bot I believe that each person will have an opportunity to choose Gods way or their own way and will be judged accordingly.

Or the "primitives" who rejected the Christian God? They're not going to Heaven?

Anyone that rejects God will be sent to the Lake of Fire.

What about deaf and/or blind people not accepting God?

Same as answer for those who reject above.

Does he make certain exemptions and exceptions on his HOH (Heaven Or Hell) form he fills out for each and every one of us?!

There are no exemptions. God is perfect in His judgment.

Question: This Biblical thing about the dead rising: Are they talking about ZOMBIES, that rise from the grave and eat the living, just like in the movies?
Because if dead people rise, they'll be slow and shuffling just like most zombies in the zombie films because their joints and muscles get kind of stiff.

Good question! I believe they will not be Zombies, but will just rise from the dead.

I really don't get the threatening thing. Except - Not Zombies.

Hope this helps.

[Bringthetruth]

The Bible does not mention Limbo or Pergatory even once. It does mention Hell (New Testament-23 and Old Testament-32) and Heaven (New Testament-277 and Old Testament-414).

As for all those "primitive tribes across the globe, the ones the missionaries didn't reach with the word of THEIR God?

Each person is born with the knowledge of good and evil, I cannot speak for God bot I believe that each person will have an opportunity to choose Gods way or their own way and will be judged accordingly.

Or the "primitives" who rejected the Christian God? They're not going to Heaven?

Anyone that rejects God will be sent to the Lake of Fire.

What about deaf and/or blind people not accepting God?

Same as answer for those who reject above.

Does he make certain exemptions and exceptions on his HOH (Heaven Or Hell) form he fills out for each and every one of us?!

There are no exemptions. God is perfect in His judgment.

Question: This Biblical thing about the dead rising: Are they talking about ZOMBIES, that rise from the grave and eat the living, just like in the movies?
Because if dead people rise, they'll be slow and shuffling just like most zombies in the zombie films because their joints and muscles get kind of stiff.

Good question! I believe they will not be Zombies, but will just rise from the dead.

I really don't get the threatening thing. Except - Not Zombies.

Hope this helps.


Very well stated Mike as usual.

[TOOLBAGS]

No offense but it appears the non-believers, as you say, have a much better time with life and are not that worried about the after life (if there is one). I want to go where these people go, where ever it may be. Its gonna be quite the party!!

[cantolina]

I strive to do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because I fear anyone's God. My God is well aware of how I feel about him, and that's no one's business but ours...

The answer is...know one knows.....and further, the very idea of ANY existences after life are, in and of themselves, completely fictitious and the crafted design of MAN....

If I have to live my life in fear of my God, that's not a life I want to live....

[Surfing USA]

The Bible does not mention Limbo or Pergatory even once. It does mention Hell (New Testament-23 and Old Testament-32) and Heaven (New Testament-277 and Old Testament-414).

1. PURGATION - This word is found in the Book of Hebrews, Chapter 1, Verse 3. We quote it here: "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the figure of His substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high." In the dictionary it means "the act of cleansing".

2.PURGE - This word is found in several places in the Bible. We quote them here for your spiritual enrichment:

(Isaias 1: 25) - "And I will turn my hand to thee, and I will clean purge away thy dross, and I will take away all thy sin."


(St. Luke 3: 17) - "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

(St. John 15: 2) - "Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

(1 Corinthians 5: 7) - "Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed." In the dictionary, the word, purge, means "to clean".

3. PURGED - This word is also found in several locations in the Bible. We quote them here for your benefit:

(Psalm 11: 7) - "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried by the fire, purged from the earth, refined seven times."

(Proverbs 15: 27) - "By mercy and faith sins are purged away: and by the fear of the Lord everyone declineth from evil."

(2 Peter 1: 9) - "For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

4. PURGETH - This word in found only once in the Sacred Scriptures. It is quoted here:

(Tobias 12: 9) - "For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting."

5. PURGING - This word is also found only once in the Holy Bible. It is quoted here:

(St. Mark 7: 19) - "Because it entereth not into his heart, but goeth into his belly, and goeth out into the privy, purging all meats?"


Source: http://www.prayforourleaders.com/PurgatoryInTheBible.html

[mesue]

1. PURGATION - This word is found in the Book of Hebrews, Chapter 1, Verse 3. We quote it here: "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the figure of His substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high." In the dictionary it means "the act of cleansing".

...
I didn't even bother to go through the rest of your Scripture use.
My sins are already purged. The use of the "ed" on the end of a word means it already happened. Rejoice in that thought now that you know your debt has been paid, your sins can be purged, and you can go straight to Heaven when you die. There are no pit stops between Heaven and Hell.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[run4it]

I didn't even bother to go through the rest of your Scripture use.
My sins are already purged. The use of the "ed" on the end of a word means it already happened. Rejoice in that thought now that you know your debt has been paid, your sins can be purged, and you can go straight to Heaven when you die. There are no pit stops between Heaven and Hell.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Are you suggesting that all your sins, past and future, have and will be automatically been atoned for?

[mesue]

Are you suggesting that all your sins, past and future, have and will be automatically been atoned for? Yes. I'm not suggesting, I'm stating a fact, as far as one can state a fact from faith.

[Cgoodsp466]

Not if you live in California!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Or your a blind Gov.:p

[mesue]

Not if you live in California!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Or your a blind Gov.:p
Even if you live in California or are a blind Governer. Jesus Christ shed His blood to atone for all sin, not just some, and conquered death so that all who call on His name may live.

[run4it]

Yes. I'm not suggesting, I'm stating a fact, as far as one can state a fact from faith.
So you believe that you can act with complete impunity for the rest of your life and still be "saved" come Judgment Day?

[WNYresident]

So you believe that you can act with complete impunity for the rest of your life and still be "saved" come Judgment Day?

Does seem a little odd doesn't it. That's like people who can be "asses" all week but go to confession and all is well again.

[mesue]

So you believe that you can act with complete impunity for the rest of your life and still be "saved" come Judgment Day?Sin is not without a punishment, but when I do sin, and that's at least once a day, it's forgiven. The punishment has been taken for me by Jesus. So, instead of getting a spanking AND no ice cream I deserve, I get no ice cream. :)
My judgment day is before the Judgment Seat of Christ and not the Great White Throne Judgment, praise God.

[bigpoppapuff]

Does seem a little odd doesn't it. That's like people who can be "asses" all week but go to confession and all is well again.


true dat!!

i believe that if you lead a good life, you're at least the equal (or better)than those who spout scripture and believe that "their" way is the only way.....BS!!!!

[bigpoppapuff]

No offense but it appears the non-believers, as you say, have a much better time with life and are not that worried about the after life (if there is one). I want to go where these people go, where ever it may be. Its gonna be quite the party!!


tool...i know what you do for a living...i know that you're a good husband and father.....can ANYONE tell you that by being a non-believer God would not want you with him (or her)...if indeed there IS an after life (hey,maybe there is an easter bunny)???...

please!!!???...keep on leading the life you do.......

[mesue]

true dat!!

i believe that if you lead a good life, you're at least the equal (or better)than those who spout scripture and believe that "their" way is the only way.....BS!!!! I believe what you believe is BS. How's that? Is it okay for me to call you out on that? Or am I the only one who isn't supposed to believe what I believe because you think it's BS. Grow up.

[mikenold]

I believe what you believe is BS. How's that? Is it okay for me to call you out on that? Or am I the only one who isn't supposed to believe what I believe because you think it's BS. Grow up.

I would concur, there seems to be a double standard. Mesue did not say your way was BS (at least not until this last post). If you don't agree with someone, you don't have to get nasty about it. Although... if saved, the shed blood of Jesus Christ would cover that transgression too! :D

[mesue]

... Although... if saved, the shed blood of Jesus Christ would cover that transgression too! :D
amen! :D

[TOOLBAGS]

tool...i know what you do for a living...i know that you're a good husband and father.....can ANYONE tell you that by being a non-believer God would not want you with him (or her)...if indeed there IS an after life (hey,maybe there is an easter bunny)???...

please!!!???...keep on leading the life you do.......

Thanks Bro. I always said, if there is a heaven, and nobody knows for sure no matter what they read, that would be awsome!! However, im not gonna worry about it while im alive, thats silly. Im good peeps and I associate with good peeps. Religion does not need to complicate that.

[run4it]

I believe what you believe is BS. How's that? Is it okay for me to call you out on that? Or am I the only one who isn't supposed to believe what I believe because you think it's BS. Grow up.
Wow, and he wasn't even addressing you! He was congratulating someone else on living an exemplary life.

You really shouldn't revert to your persecution complex unless someone is at least addressing you.

Puffy has no problem with people being Christian and even (be it in an offhanded way) acknowledges that holding such beliefs is not "wrong" per se. He happens to believe that living a good life is much more important than declaring allegiance to some unseen spirit and then going about being an a-hole. There are quite a few of us Christians who would agree with him (though we'd definitely suggest a combination of believing in God AND not being an a-hole).

As far as your "sinning with impunity" belief, I'd tend to say that if sin is that which takes you away from God (and his Son), then you'd better be able to show how you account and atone for those sins yourself, lest they take you and keep you away from God (in whom is the ONLY salvation). If you've not continually reconciled yourself through contrition, you'll remain apart from God through your sin, and "ineligible", so to speak, for His salvation. I understand that's not your read on it...and that's ok with me :)

[FisherRd]

Worm food is worm food.

[therising]

Sin is not without a punishment, but when I do sin, and that's at least once a day, it's forgiven. The punishment has been taken for me by Jesus. So, instead of getting a spanking AND no ice cream I deserve, I get no ice cream. :)

Does that go for all of us?

[mesue]

Does that go for all of us?
yup, all who believe.

[mesue]

Wow, and he wasn't even addressing you! He was congratulating someone else on living an exemplary life.

You really shouldn't revert to your persecution complex unless someone is at least addressing you.

Puffy has no problem with people being Christian and even (be it in an offhanded way) acknowledges that holding such beliefs is not "wrong" per se. He happens to believe that living a good life is much more important than declaring allegiance to some unseen spirit and then going about being an a-hole. There are quite a few of us Christians who would agree with him (though we'd definitely suggest a combination of believing in God AND not being an a-hole).

As far as your "sinning with impunity" belief, I'd tend to say that if sin is that which takes you away from God (and his Son), then you'd better be able to show how you account and atone for those sins yourself, lest they take you and keep you away from God (in whom is the ONLY salvation). If you've not continually reconciled yourself through contrition, you'll remain apart from God through your sin, and "ineligible", so to speak, for His salvation. I understand that's not your read on it...and that's ok with me :)
My complexes are mine and I will own them when warranted. as you will see from the following tree, he was responding to what res was responding to me for my response to you.
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[Bringthetruth]

Does that go for all of us?

Therising, when a practicing sinner comes to Christ he recieves remission- a blotting out- of sins.

And after the person is a chrisitan , he can recieve forgiveness of sins that he may commit: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us of all unrightenous 1 john chapt1 verse 9.

This is a part of the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

You would be unwise not to turn to him and have the ability to become a part of the Kingdom of God.

Anyone not in the Kingdom of God is now operating in the Kingdom of satan whether they believe it or not.

There are only two Kingdoms one is in darkness and one is in the Light.

Choose this day who you will serve !:)

[WNYresident]

yup, all who believe.

Believe exactly what? What type of creature/entity is god? What does the bible acutally say about it?

He can't be human because we are human and can't do what he "can" do. Like create everything from absolutely nothing. But there had to be something before we were created because "Where" was god before the heavens and earth were created? See what I mean?

We are only created in his image isn't that what they say? So we look like him but it's a different type of life form. Does the bible acutally state what his mass is? what does god look like or anything like that... even in other versions of the bible not just the one you quote from?

What does the bible say about where "god" was before he create you, me and everything else. What is the oldest text on record that acutally refers to "god" as what is written about in the bible.

They state god created life.... so was he "alive" as we refer to as life before he created us?

[WNYresident]

Therising, when a practicing sinner comes to Christ he recieves remission- a blotting out- of sins.

Like starting your life over square one sin forgivness?


And after the person is a chrisitan , he can recieve forgiveness of sins that he may commit: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and to cleanse us of all unrightenous 1 john chapt1 verse 9.

SO that is one of the "Positive features" of this organization? Make sinful mistakes over and over but we'll forgive you and move on?

This is a part of the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

A repeating escape clause for a joining member? That would be good news... I see where you are coming from.

You would be unwise not to turn to him and have the ability to become a part of the Kingdom of God.

So it would be unwise for you not to join the organization. I mean they do have some good features... Are there dues to be paid?


Anyone not in the Kingdom of God is now operating in the Kingdom of satan whether they believe it or not.

Sounds like union versus non union.

There are only two Kingdoms one is in darkness and one is in the Light.

There are only two groups one is the public sector and one is the private sector.

Choose this day who you will serve !:)

SOunds rather familiar.

[therising]

I dunno, the whole concept is kinda weird. It's like Jesus is saying:

"As long as you believe in me, and worship me, you can sin all you want, cause I've already died for your sins. So, go ahead and have yourself some fun."

If anyone else besides Jesus said it, I would think they were a snake oil salesman.

It kinda makes it a no-brainer to be Christian, don't you think?

[mesue]

Believe exactly what?
That Jesus Christ's shed blood is payment for your sin debt to God. That Jesus Christ arose from the dead and is alive today.
What type of creature/entity is god?
Well, if we are created in His image, He must look like a man/human.
He came down from Heaven in the form of a man (baby) then grew to be a man.
What does the bible acutally say about it?
We won't know exactly what He looks like until we get to Heaven.
He can't be human because we are human and can't do what he "can" do.
No, He's not human, He's God.
Like create everything from absolutely nothing.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. We can only see the fininte and not the infinate. God is infinite.
But there had to be something before we were created because "Where" was god before the heavens and earth were created?
He was and is.
See what I mean?
This is where faith comes in.
We are only created in his image isn't that what they say?
No, that's what He says in Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image" Jesus was there too. So we look like him but it's a different type of life form. Does the bible acutally state what his mass is?
His life form? Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

what does god look like or anything like that...
Jesus said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Men have seen Jesus.
even in other versions of the bible not just the one you quote from?
I will only speak to what I know from the Bible I read.
What does the bible say about where "god" was before he create you, me and everything else.
He was in Heaven.
What is the oldest text on record that acutally refers to "god" as what is written about in the bible.
I can't say what the oldest text on record is. There are a lot of Lexicons and other texts out there. There's even ancient stone tablets that have writtings about God on them. It is said that Job is the oldest Book of the Bible.
They state god created life.... so was he "alive" as we refer to as life before he created us?
God has always been the True Living God. He's always been alive. he is the Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end.
I hope I was helpful. I didn't spend a lot of time on this because it's getting late :o sorry.

[mesue]

I dunno, the whole concept is kinda weird. It's like Jesus is saying:

"As long as you believe in me, and worship me, you can sin all you want, cause I've already died for your sins. So, go ahead and have yourself some fun."

If anyone else besides Jesus said it, I would think they were a snake oil salesman.

It kinda makes it a no-brainer to be Christian, don't you think?
A lot of people say that, it's a very wrong misconception. But it really isn't unlike the misconception of thinking that going to confession and doing penance continuing in sin. It's all okay so long as you go to mass and pray people out of Purgatory. It's a misconception.
The truth is that if we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But as a Christian, I don't actively seek out to sin just because I know I have no condemnation. I would rather stay away from sin to please God.

[WNYresident]

I dunno, the whole concept is kinda weird. It's like Jesus is saying:

"As long as you believe in me, and worship me, you can sin all you want, cause I've already died for your sins. So, go ahead and have yourself some fun."

If anyone else besides Jesus said it, I would think they were a snake oil salesman.

It kinda makes it a no-brainer to be Christian, don't you think?

You see it too.

Plus if that's how people view the whole situation it seems rather unchristian that they do. Do anything you want because if you believe your forgiven. Yet you continue on your sinning knowing your forgiven. That's not really being a "good" person...

[Cgoodsp466]

My complexes are mine and I will own them when warranted. as you will see from the following tree, he was responding to what res was responding to me for my response to you.
http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_i.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/clear.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_t.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/statusicon/post_old.gif Cgoodsp466 Not if you live in... (http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/showthread.php?p=345678#post345678) Today, 09:37 AM
http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_i.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/clear.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_i.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_l.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/statusicon/post_old.gif mesue Even if you live in... (http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/showthread.php?p=345681#post345681) Today, 09:46 AM
http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_i.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/clear.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_l.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/statusicon/post_old.gif run4it So you believe that you can... (http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/showthread.php?p=345705#post345705) Today, 11:51 AM
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http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_i.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/clear.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_i.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/misc/tree_l.gifhttp://www.speakupwny.com/forums/images/statusicon/post_old.gif bigpoppapuff true dat!! i believe that if... (http://www.speakupwny.com/forums/showthread.php?p=345720#post345720) Today, 12:41 PM
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You are nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[therising]

Plus if that's how people view the whole situation it seems rather unchristian that they do. Do anything you want because if you believe your forgiven. Yet you continue on your sinning knowing your forgiven. That's not really being a "good" person...

I think that you and I may have always had the same misconception about the true meaning of Christianity.

The way I thought I remembered it, was that being a good person, and having compassion for others was a big part of Christianity.
But, I'm starting to realize now, that maybe, I've been wrong all these years.

I'm starting to understand that the main tenet of Christianity is simply to worship Christ, as your Savior, and to spread that word to others.
The way you treat other people doesn't seem to be nearly as important.

At least, that's the way I have come to perceive it. If, I'm wrong, I invite someone to correct me.

[mikenold]

I think that you and I may have always had the same misconception about the true meaning of Christianity.

The way I thought I remembered it, was that being a good person, and having compassion for others was a big part of Christianity.
But, I'm starting to realize now, that maybe, I've been wrong all these years.

I'm starting to understand that the main tenet of Christianity is simply to worship Christ, as your Savior, and to spread that word to others.
The way you treat other people doesn't seem to be nearly as important.

At least, that's the way I have come to perceive it. If, I'm wrong, I invite someone to correct me.

Having Christ as my savior guarantees I have a place in heaven. I choose to tell others about this for two reasons:

1.) Because Christ commands that we spread the Gospel of the Good News of salvation through Christ.

2.) Because I would want all those I love to be there in Heaven with me.

Hopefully, by having Christ as my savior and by showing the Love of Christ to others, this would cause me to treat people with compassion. However, I would agree with you that it does seem that more and more people are losing their compassion for others. When I was young neighbors had conversations and even hung out together. I believe that this is a product of a "me first" society that has been evolving for many years now. I tend to think that this is not a problem of "Christianity". This is, of course, only my perception.

[WNYresident]

I think that you and I may have always had the same misconception about the true meaning of Christianity.

The way I thought I remembered it, was that being a good person, and having compassion for others was a big part of Christianity.
But, I'm starting to realize now, that maybe, I've been wrong all these years.

I'm starting to understand that the main tenet of Christianity is simply to worship Christ, as your Savior, and to spread that word to others.
The way you treat other people doesn't seem to be nearly as important.

At least, that's the way I have come to perceive it. If, I'm wrong, I invite someone to correct me.


Technically they know how to be a christian if they read the words to thier advantage. Takes more to being a good person than just worshiping something and going to confession all the time. You acutally have to be a good person not a "christian" converter sales person.

[bigpoppapuff]

I think that you and I may have always had the same misconception about the true meaning of Christianity.

The way I thought I remembered it, was that being a good person, and having compassion for others was a big part of Christianity.
But, I'm starting to realize now, that maybe, I've been wrong all these years.

I'm starting to understand that the main tenet of Christianity is simply to worship Christ, as your Savior, and to spread that word to others.
The way you treat other people doesn't seem to be nearly as important.

At least, that's the way I have come to perceive it. If, I'm wrong, I invite someone to correct me.


post of the week (religion related).......figured it would be followed with some mumble-jumble.....i've come to expect nothing less from the zealots...

[Bringthetruth]

You see it too.

Plus if that's how people view the whole situation it seems rather unchristian that they do. Do anything you want because if you believe your forgiven. Yet you continue on your sinning knowing your forgiven. That's not really being a "good" person...

Becoming a christian doesn't give you the green light to Practice sin.

Before coming to Christ we went with the flow of everyone else.

But when we become Born Again by the Spirit of God , he gives us the ability and strenght by his Spirit living in us to say no to sin.

But if we mess up and sin , we have an advocate with Father God by repenting and asking for forgiveness.

The point is a Christian should sin Less, but not be sinless, if we were sinless we wouldn't have to repent and ask for forgiveness.

[Bringthetruth]

Believe exactly what?
We are only created in his image isn't that what they say? So we look like him but it's a different type of life form. Does the bible acutally state what his mass is? what does god look like or anything like that... even in other versions of the bible not just the one you quote from?

What does the bible say about where "god" was before he create you, me and everything else. What is the oldest text on record that acutally refers to "god" as what is written about in the bible.

They state god created life.... so was he "alive" as we refer to as life before he created us?

Man was born into a world ruled by satan did not by nature know his creator. Since Adam's sin when man died spiritually, God and man had been spiritually seperated. Spiritually dead men couldn't know the nature of the creator without a revelation from him. God has been conceived as weird cruel, grotesque, immoral or perhaps an impersonable energy, but he was never thought of as a God of Love- a loving heavenly Father.

If you really want to know what God is like...LOOK AT JESUS=Sinless

[therising]

Having Christ as my savior guarantees I have a place in heaven. I choose to tell others about this for two reasons:

1.) Because Christ commands that we spread the Gospel of the Good News of salvation through Christ.

2.) Because I would want all those I love to be there in Heaven with me.

Hopefully, by having Christ as my savior and by showing the Love of Christ to others, this would cause me to treat people with compassion. However, I would agree with you that it does seem that more and more people are losing their compassion for others. When I was young neighbors had conversations and even hung out together. I believe that this is a product of a "me first" society that has been evolving for many years now. I tend to think that this is not a problem of "Christianity". This is, of course, only my perception.

I understand, and respect, your having Christ as your Savior, and wanting to spread the word.

But, am I right, or wrong - Is compassion one of the basic tenets of Christianity?
In other words, can someone be a good Christian, if they do everything you describe above (worship Christ, and spread His word), but not show compassion for others?

[WNYresident]

Becoming a christian doesn't give you the green light to Practice sin.

Before coming to Christ we went with the flow of everyone else.

But when we become Born Again by the Spirit of God , he gives us the ability and strenght by his Spirit living in us to say no to sin.

But if we mess up and sin , we have an advocate with Father God by repenting and asking for forgiveness.

The point is a Christian should sin Less, but not be sinless, if we were sinless we wouldn't have to repent and ask for forgiveness.

It sure does listening to a few posters here. It's like knowing the system and playing it. No different then when a public servant plays the system to get as much possible money out of the system. Like using sick days when your not sick. Legally you can but ethically that's not why you have sick days. YOU HAVE them for when your sick. Don't call them sick days if they are no different than lets say a personal day.

What would make you think people went with the flow before christ. There are a lot of good people who wouldn't go with the flow is the flow meant sinning here and there. People have morals and ethics and don't need to worship someone.

[WNYresident]

Man was born into a world ruled by satan did not by nature know his creator. Since Adam's sin when man died spiritually, God and man had been spiritually seperated. Spiritually dead men couldn't know the nature of the creator without a revelation from him. God has been conceived as weird cruel, grotesque, immoral or perhaps an impersonable energy, but he was never thought of as a God of Love- a loving heavenly Father.

If you really want to know what God is like...LOOK AT JESUS=Sinless

So god is an alien then? You are refering to these "bible" characters as actual entities that are not human. They have control over energy that humans do not have.

So you believe that they "literally" are somewhere? As mesue stated they were in the "heavens" before "god" created earth.

[mikenold]

I understand, and respect, your having Christ as your Savior, and wanting to spread the word.

But, am I right, or wrong - Is compassion one of the basic tenets of Christianity?
In other words, can someone be a good Christian, if they do everything you describe above (worship Christ, and spread His word), but not show compassion for others?

Good is a very relative term. Although some would argue so is Christian. That aside, I think anyone can show compassion as well as anyone can show no compassion. Doesn't matter if they are Good OR Christian.

[therising]

Good is a very relative term. Although some would argue so is Christian. That aside, I think anyone can show compassion as well as anyone can show no compassion. Doesn't matter if they are Good OR Christian.

I didn't realize it was such a difficult question to answer. So, I'll phrase it another way:

Is compassion toward others one of the basic tenets of Christianity? Yes, or No.

[mikenold]

I didn't realize it was such a difficult question to answer. So, I'll phrase it another way:

Is compassion toward others one of the basic tenets of Christianity? Yes, or No.

If, by Christianity, you mean those that follow Christ (which is the definition I go by), then the answer is yes, a Christian should follow Christs example of being compassionate.

[WNYresident]

Good is a very relative term. Although some would argue so is Christian. That aside, I think anyone can show compassion as well as anyone can show no compassion. Doesn't matter if they are Good OR Christian.

Good is a relative word that people tend to use for thier own benefit. Like the word ethical. Notice our politicians for the most part don't worry if they are ethical as long as they are legal.

[mikenold]

Good is a relative word that people tend to use for thier own benefit. Like the word ethical. Notice our politicians for the most part don't worry if they are ethical as long as they are legal.

So true!

[mesue]

You are nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in some circles perhaps :)

[MERL J]

Of course not - only BTT and mesue are going to heaven. I'm kinda glad.

[bigpoppapuff]

Of course not - only BTT and mesue are going to heaven. I'm kinda glad.


wherever we go...we can listen to some old school....

[Surfing USA]

So, instead of getting a spanking AND no ice cream I deserve, I get no ice cream. Speak for yourself mesue. I'll continue to eat my ice-cream and take the spanking. :D

http://www.myteespot.com/images/thumbs/t_6430_01.jpg

[Bannister]

I understand, and respect, your having Christ as your Savior, and wanting to spread the word.

But, am I right, or wrong - Is compassion one of the basic tenets of Christianity?
In other words, can someone be a good Christian, if they do everything you describe above (worship Christ, and spread His word), but not show compassion for others?

Although the word compassion is not used, the Bible says that christians should be showing the "fruit of the spirit" in their lives. It says we will know who the christians are by the evidence of these fruit in their lives.

The fruit of the spirit are:

love, joy, peace, longsuffering (patience), gentleness (kindness), goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

In my opinion, someone who is consistently uncompassionate is having a problem showing the fruit of the spirit (specifically longsuffering and gentleness) and should probably do a serious self evaluation to see if they are actually walking in the Holy Spirit.

[Bannister]

I think that you and I may have always had the same misconception about the true meaning of Christianity.

The way I thought I remembered it, was that being a good person, and having compassion for others was a big part of Christianity.
But, I'm starting to realize now, that maybe, I've been wrong all these years.

I'm starting to understand that the main tenet of Christianity is simply to worship Christ, as your Savior, and to spread that word to others.
The way you treat other people doesn't seem to be nearly as important.

At least, that's the way I have come to perceive it. If, I'm wrong, I invite someone to correct me.

I believe the relationship with Christ is the true meaning of Christianity, the most important part. The "being a good person" (by human standards), and exhibiting the fruit of the spirit are secondary.

Being secondary does not mean they are unimportant or dismissable, but that without the primary focus they would be meaningless. They go hand in hand, but you must have the primary focus.

[Bringthetruth]

I dunno, the whole concept is kinda weird. It's like Jesus is saying:

"As long as you believe in me, and worship me, you can sin all you want, cause I've already died for your sins. So, go ahead and have yourself some fun."

If anyone else besides Jesus said it, I would think they were a snake oil salesman.

It kinda makes it a no-brainer to be Christian, don't you think?




2 corinthians chapt 2 verses 14,15
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

This is why so many of you try and intellectually try and talk about and communicate about God. You are unregenerated, you are governed by only your natural instincts.

This kind of person does not have the HolySpirit and is under satans dominion.

The unspiritual person is not able to understand God and his ways, but instead relies on human reasoning or emotions.

Marvel not you and I must be "BORN AGAIN" of the Spirit of God.

[therising]

I believe the relationship with Christ is the true meaning of Christianity, the most important part. The "being a good person" (by human standards), and exhibiting the fruit of the spirit are secondary.

Being secondary does not mean they are unimportant or dismissable, but that without the primary focus they would be meaningless. They go hand in hand, but you must have the primary focus.

Bannister,
For what it's worth -- of all of the outspoken Christians on this MB, you, clearly, are the best at explaining your beliefs.

[MERL J]

Well, heaven is what you make it. Personally, I can't wait to spin some tunes in the Great Gay Bar in the Sky. :p ;) :cool:

[Cgoodsp466]

Well, heaven is what you make it. Personally, I can't wait to spin some tunes in the Great Gay Bar in the Sky. :p ;) :cool:

You might be spinn tunes,but I guarantee it will be at a place called the fireside lounge. And from what I see you will be packin em in.

[MERL J]

You might be spinn tunes,but I guarantee it will be at a place called the fireside lounge. And from what I see you will be packin em in.

Can't help it, when you're good, you're good. Thanks for the compliment!

[kernwatch]

A chief reason for my "fall" from belief in heaven was my distress at the thought of spending eternity with too many who were certain they would be 'topdogs' up there!

That would be hell?!

[Cgoodsp466]

A chief reason for my "fall" from belief in heaven was my distress at the thought of spending eternity with too many who were certain they would be 'topdogs' up there!

That would be hell?!

No ass kicking in heaven Kern.

[Bringthetruth]

Bannister,
For what it's worth -- of all of the outspoken Christians on this MB, you, clearly, are the best at explaining your beliefs.

So now since bannister explained it more clearly for you...do you believe or does satan still have the blinders on ? What will be your excuse now?

[therising]

So now since bannister explained it more clearly for you...do you believe or does satan still have the blinders on ? What will be your excuse now?

I don't mind going to hell; that's where all the fun people will be.

Our parties will be way better than your parties.

[Cgoodsp466]

I don't mind going to hell; that's where all the fun people will be.

Our parties will be way better than your parties.

Be sure to cut those hot dog sticks extra long!:D

[Bringthetruth]

I don't mind going to hell; that's where all the fun people will be.

Our parties will be way better than your parties.

Not the kind of parties you are thinking about.

http://www.amightywind.com/hell/testimonies.htm

[therising]

Not the kind of parties you are thinking about.

http://www.amightywind.com/hell/testimonies.htm

Gee, you're right - Hell doesn't look too fun.

If I take a full running, sincere leap onto the Christ Is My Savior Bus, do you think I will automatically make it into heaven?

Cause I kind of like the idea of not having to worry about how I treat other people. It sounds like a good deal to me.

[Bringthetruth]

Gee, you're right - Hell doesn't look too fun.

If I take a full running, sincere leap onto the Christ Is My Savior Bus, do you think I will automatically make it into heaven?

Cause I kind of like the idea of not having to worry about how I treat other people. It sounds like a good deal to me.


Rising I respect you man and love you as a person, so I ask for you're forgiveness, of any misunderstanding we have had in the past.

God knows we all fall short in many areas of our lives and this is why he sent us a Savior- Jesus Christ to be our lawyer in our behalf. When we repent and come over to the Lords side there we can find peace with God.