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wnyfuture
March 9th, 2008, 09:35 PM
Does anyone think the town needs to force the youth hockey association in West Seneca known as the West Seneca Wings to adapt residency rule for our youth hockey teams? Currently, the association has no residency rule and allows kids from all over WNY to represent West Seneca while kids from West Seneca transplanted all over.

With West Seneca East & West joining the premier federation league in WNY – I think we need to have a proper feeder for our varsity teams to ensure success for those teams.

Amherst, Hamburg, Cheektowaga has residency rules

Amherst Rule
a player must reside in the Town and/or attend one of the Williamsville schools, Amherst, or Sweet Home. At minor P.W. and up, at the AAA (Tier One) level, each team may have FOUR non-residents. If a non-resident is selected as a HEAD Coach of a AAA team or is an Instructor ( ie; Dave Smith or James Patrick) then his child may play at any level of AAA or the Girl's program. There is no preference given to an Amherst player. In other words, if a non-resident is slightly better than an Amherst resident, then the coach is encouraged to pick the non-resident.

Cheektowaga
85% of the teams must be from the Town of Cheektowaga

I would propose the town force the youth hockey association to adapt similar rules. How can I contact the town board members via email or postal?

Also, anyone feel the rink is a money loser? What about naming rights for the rink?

WNYresident
March 9th, 2008, 10:25 PM
That's odd you would have any kid from another town on your league if it's a town league. I would have assumed you would have to live in the town you were going to play hockey for.

Psycho1
March 9th, 2008, 11:12 PM
I would have assumed you would have to live in the town you were going to play hockey for.

I'm afraid not. I know someone who lives in Tonawanda, and his kid played here. Who knows, maybe the price of gas will cause a residency rule.

WNYresident
March 9th, 2008, 11:41 PM
I'm afraid not. I know someone who lives in Tonawanda, and his kid played here. Who knows, maybe the price of gas will cause a residency rule.

So these are basically sport leagues if they allow anyone to play.

How much do these leagues cost the tax payer?

I would expect the "cheektowaga" team to be 100% cheektowaga kids playing against 100% kids from another town.

wnyfuture
March 10th, 2008, 09:23 AM
That's odd you would have any kid from another town on your league if it's a town league. I would have assumed you would have to live in the town you were going to play hockey for.
"Travel" is the competitive where they travel all over WNY and sometimes the state and country.

"House" is the less competitive where there is a residency rule, teams are drafted and play teams entirely within WS Youth Hockey at WS Ice Rink and Leisure.

AAA - Most proficient level of play
AA - Next level of proficiency
A - Next level of proficiency
House - Lowest Level

West Seneca's House program has a residency rule of 1st town residents 2nd school district 3rd non-residents

On some WS Travel teams (name's by birth years) have less than 6 residents on a team and coached by non-residents. Residents not given the priority over non-residents. It's a shame that our town teams that travel all over the country are represented by kids from Buffalo, Kenmore, Lewiston, Niagara Falls, Williamsville, Orchard Park, Elma, etc. In the past, teams have had 0 kids on the team.

What's the purpose of the name West Seneca? Why are residents from WS forced to play somewhere else because kids from the above mentioned towns want to play here. We allow them to use West Seneca as a banner name and without a true representation of the town of West Seneca.

Did I mention, we force House teams to play at Leisure because the ice is given to Travel teams. So much for house teams filled with West Seneca kids to use their own town rink!

Sylvan
March 10th, 2008, 09:37 AM
I played A and AA for Amherst in the 70's and 80's and I remember some parents who didnt like the coach, so they bought land in Wheatfield so their kids could play for the wheatfield team. That team consistantly won State and went on to win Nationals. Some of those very kids made it to AAA and the Pro's. We were the only team in Amherst to always get Second place and always to Wheatfield.

I remember never having a problem beating West Seneca by half a dozen goals or more.

Perhaps West Seneca NEEDS to be able to recruit players from out of town to be competetive? The kids who tryout and dont make the good teams will still have a chance at playing in a league at their appropriate skill level.

wnyfuture
March 14th, 2008, 02:18 PM
I emailed both of the female board members and got no response. Two days and no reply?

Spirit of Ebenezer
March 15th, 2008, 11:59 AM
I'm somewhat confused here, are you stating you have a child who has nowhere to play on any hockey team in town because too many non-residents are playing in the town leagues ? I only ask for clarification because I know an awful lot of town residents who have children of all ages from 4 yrs. old and up playing in town leagues. It seems like their at a rink all the time. I will be seeing some this weekend, I will have to ask them about this situation you speak of.

Sock Puppet
March 15th, 2008, 12:59 PM
Fee for non-residents = problem solved.

Spirit of Ebenezer
March 15th, 2008, 01:27 PM
I re-read your posts and the others in this thread. I have to ask you, could it be your child didn't make one of the premier -AAA OR AA teams ? Is that it ? I'm getting the impression your child does play in town on a hockey team, but it is not in stature of what you desire or deem suitable for him. I've heard about these premier teams with boys baseball and girls softball teams in town. It's my opinion with many of these types of teams it's often more about the parents bragging rights than what is best for the kid. Did you check to see if these other premier town sports team programs are for town residents only. I hope you did before deriding how things are in one town youth sports program.

Additionally, though you've given a couple of board members "two whole days" to get back to you on this very pressing town issue you desperately need addressed, I believe Mrs. Bove and Mrs. Meegan have more important matters at hand regarding the town than one kids parent(s) who aren't happy about their kid playing hockey on what they percieve as an inferior hockey team.

Is that the case ? Non Residents pay more ? If so, great point Socko.

snapple
March 15th, 2008, 04:41 PM
You obviously have no idea how travel hockey is run, a residency rule for all the hockey organizations will never happen, I live in Hamburg, my kids play for West Seneca travel hockey, they have also played for the regals, Depew and Hamburg. House league may have residency rules, I'm not familiar, but with travel you have to tryout, kids from all over WNY come to tryouts, the best 15 or so are picked no matter where they live, and as a non resident I pay a non resident fee above the 1300-1400 fee to be on the team. I think there was 3 kids the most who actually lived in WS on my sons team last year, its a different level of play, you cant just play on a team because you live down the street from the rink, unless its a house league team, thats just how it is.

Hamburg travel hockey does not have a residency rule.

Spirit of Ebenezer
March 15th, 2008, 05:46 PM
You obviously have no idea how travel hockey is run

If you're talking to me .......guilty as charged. :D

wnyfuture
March 16th, 2008, 10:32 AM
I re-read your posts and the others in this thread. I have to ask you, could it be your child didn't make one of the premier -AAA OR AA teams ? Is that it ? I'm getting the impression your child does play in town on a hockey team, but it is not in stature of what you desire or deem suitable for him. I've heard about these premier teams with boys baseball and girls softball teams in town. It's my opinion with many of these types of teams it's often more about the parents bragging rights than what is best for the kid. Did you check to see if these other premier town sports team programs are for town residents only. I hope you did before deriding how things are in one town youth sports program.

Additionally, though you've given a couple of board members "two whole days" to get back to you on this very pressing town issue you desperately need addressed, I believe Mrs. Bove and Mrs. Meegan have more important matters at hand regarding the town than one kids parent(s) who aren't happy about their kid playing hockey on what they percieve as an inferior hockey team.

Is that the case ? Non Residents pay more ? If so, great point Socko.
I did get a reply and the matter is being handled by Mrs. Meegan and Mrs. Bove. I guess 3 days is the key :)

You obviously have no idea how travel hockey is run, a residency rule for all the hockey organizations will never happen, I live in Hamburg, my kids play for West Seneca travel hockey, they have also played for the regals, Depew and Hamburg. House league may have residency rules, I'm not familiar, but with travel you have to tryout, kids from all over WNY come to tryouts, the best 15 or so are picked no matter where they live, and as a non resident I pay a non resident fee above the 1300-1400 fee to be on the team. I think there was 3 kids the most who actually lived in WS on my sons team last year, its a different level of play, you cant just play on a team because you live down the street from the rink, unless its a house league team, thats just how it is.

Hamburg travel hockey does not have a residency rule.
Amherst is more successful than West Seneca. Why can't West Seneca adapt a similar policy? AA teams must be all residents and AAA teams can have four non-residents.

My one son plays at WS and other was forced to play on another team because of a team filled with non-residents. That's the problem.

snapple
March 16th, 2008, 11:48 AM
I did get a reply and the matter is being handled by Mrs. Meegan and Mrs. Bove. I guess 3 days is the key :)

Amherst is more successful than West Seneca. Why can't West Seneca adapt a similar policy? AA teams must be all residents and AAA teams can have four non-residents.

My one son plays at WS and other was forced to play on another team because of a team filled with non-residents. That's the problem.

do your kids play house or travel?

wnyfuture
March 16th, 2008, 12:40 PM
do your kids play house or travel?
travel

Sock Puppet
March 16th, 2008, 01:05 PM
I could be mistaken, but I believe the leagues with the strictest residency policy are the three city leagues (Bakewell, Caz, and N. Buffalo).

wnyfuture
March 17th, 2008, 11:00 AM
Amherst & Cheektowaga are the only two programs with residency

Point of this - Why are we forcing taxpayers and their kids to play somewhere else when non-taxpayers are put in their place. To me, it does not make sense. Taxpayers first!

Sock Puppet
March 17th, 2008, 11:59 AM
Amherst & Cheektowaga are the only two programs with residency

Point of this - Why are we forcing taxpayers and their kids to play somewhere else when non-taxpayers are put in their place. To me, it does not make sense. Taxpayers first!
Agreed.

wnyfuture
March 18th, 2008, 12:05 PM
Does the town board not care about tax payers? Even if it's just a little things like sports, we should be taken care of.

Spirit of Ebenezer
March 26th, 2008, 09:40 PM
Even if it's just a little things like sports, we should be taken care of.

:rolleyes: ......Upon further review......You're right, I'm wrong......Ouch!!!!!! :mad:

wnyfuture
March 28th, 2008, 09:33 AM
The ice is used by Town of West Seneca House & Travel Program, Buffalo Jr Sabres, High School teams, open skate, and than filled in by others.

The WS proposed budget for 2008 contains the following, regarding the Ice Rink.
P/T Laborers- $16,000.00
Instructor Fee- $8,000.00
Recreation Equipment- $5,000.00

The next line in the budget proposal is titled:
"Building and Grounds- Recreation Center" which may encompass the Ice Rink or not. The entries are:
Other Expenses- 0
Telephone- 1400.00
Gas- 28,000.00
Water- 3000.00
Repair and Maintenance- 20,000.00
Contract Repairs- 8000.00

Income
Sponsorship - The rink isn't sponsored by anyone, no ads on the boards = $0
ProShop and Concessions - $1k per month (Sept thru April) = $8000

Let's assume they sell every hour of ice, please note, ice at night is available.
Ice Time - I have no idea the cost per hour, I would assume $185 since that is what the pepsi center charges, cheektowaga, etc. =
Weekends - 16 hours of possible ice sold (Saturday and Sunday) 16 * 2 = 32 hours of ice sold
Weekdays - 7 hours per day, 5 times a week =35 hours of ice sold
One Week = 67 hours * 185 = $12395 will be rounded to $13,000.00 for one-week period breakdown. The rink is opened roughly 28 weeks
Ice Time Income = $364,000.00

Proshop = 8000.00
Ice Time Income = $364,000.00
Total = $372,000.00

Few things, the town is in charge of house program, the fee includes referee cost, jerseys, insurance. The town also purchases ice from Leisure rinks because of the high demand and the little supply.

The ice time income does not factor in the open skate schedule, which could bring in a lot more than $185 or a lot less. Saturday or Sunday afternoon are not that well attended.

Just a little to think about.

Something is missing, there is no way the town makes over 280k profit on the ice rink!
Why no naming rights for the rink?

Why are we not charging more for ice for non-residents to subsidize the cost for residents?

Spirit of Ebenezer
March 29th, 2008, 02:43 PM
Your initial argument, which I did not understand at first, I realized was a legitimate point, which was residents first when it comes to town run youth sports programs in town facilities, like the ice rink. I recently learned that the town last year instituted a resident only policy at the town pool. I agree with the notion that town residents shouldn't be pushed aside for non-residents.

But your posting about ice rink and profit potential and such is way off the mark. Especially the way you are spinning it. The ice rink, like the town pool, is basically a service offered by the town, much like street plowing and garbage pick up. There is no profiting. Now if you stated, it could be run more efficiently, that would be a valid point. But profiting ? Who said the town was profiting with the ice rink ?


Something is missing, there is no way the town makes over 280k profit on the ice rink!

wnyfuture
March 29th, 2008, 03:16 PM
Your initial argument, which I did not understand at first, I realized was a legitimate point, which was residents first when it comes to town run youth sports programs in town facilities, like the ice rink. I recently learned that the town last year instituted a resident only policy at the town pool. I agree with the notion that town residents shouldn't be pushed aside for non-residents.

But your posting about ice rink and profit potential and such is way off the mark. Especially the way you are spinning it. The ice rink, like the town pool, is basically a service offered by the town, much like street plowing and garbage pick up. There is no profiting. Now if you stated, it could be run more efficiently, that would be a valid point. But profiting ? Who said the town was profiting with the ice rink ?
I don't think they are profiting and probably not. The budget, I believe is missing a lot of figures. No indoor ice rink could operate on those figures, I believe a lot of hidden costs. I believe it could be run more efficiently.

Yes, I'm all over the place on this topic but a lot of this frustrates me to no end.

I don't have a problem with non-residents using our tax paying facilities but I have a problem with "town residents shouldn't be pushed aside for non-residents". For example, if our high schools were open to everyone in Erie & Niagara County, they took the brightest kids from those counties and put them at West and East thus leaving no room for tax paying residents at East or West, average and below average students would be forced to attend a city school or below average high school because of the non-residents excelling at school pushing aside a average town resident. Is that fair? To me, it's not.

Why can't we mimic Amherst's policy regarding their ice rink and youth program?

wnyfuture
April 3rd, 2008, 12:08 PM
Just been told the rink may not open next for 2009-10 season because of the amount work needed. The Rink Refrigeration is old and needs to be fixed.

Would the town replace the Rink Refrigeration and would you support that?

WSWings98
May 31st, 2008, 09:26 PM
West Seneca travel hockey is a very competitive and very respected youth hockey program. With residency restrictions in place, WS would not be able to produce a team that could compete with the current list of AAA clubs in the EWAHL which they are part of. They compete against teams from Hershey, Pittsburgh, Rochester, Syracuse, Cleveland, as well as the Buffalo Regals and frequently compete in tournaments in Canada.

You likely could not pull 12 kids out of West Seneca in any given birth year good enough to play against any of these teams.

These teams are self funded and run with budgets of $15,000 to $25,000 per year. All costs are picked up by the families of the players on each team as well as sponsors.

If a residency restriction was put in place, West Seneca would have to leave he EWAHL and join the WNYAHL where they would likely downgrade to a AA status.

If the WS rink were to close permanently, the WS teams could continue to operate under the allotted budgets at any number of local rinks.

These teams are not designed to be feeder teams for JV or Varsity teams. In fact, any player serious about a future in hockey understands that High School hockey is a distraction. Split midget seasons are the result of trying to play both AAA and high school hockey. This is what causes our local teams to struggle against full season teams that strictly prohibit playing high school hockey while on those teams.

For the elite talented few, WNY doesn't even offer viable options to play at a level needed for scouting by Division 1 schools. It will not happen playing high school hockey. Many players need to leave the area to play for teams like Little Caesars, Honeybaked, Compuware, Detroit Belle Tire, and prep schools

Psycho1
June 1st, 2008, 10:59 AM
The WS Bee reported that the issue in the rink is mold. Couple that with an old refrigeration unit, and it equals ca$h. The Town is unable to sustain additional expenses, this is the time that private investment is needed. With an aging demographic, private money is the only viable solution to address this issue. There will need to be incentives offered in order to attract an investor(s), however, smaller tax revenue is better than no tax revenue.

It will be interesting to see how the Town proceeds on this one.

OldTymeRevival
June 1st, 2008, 11:48 AM
The WS Bee reported that the issue in the rink is mold. Couple that with an old refrigeration unit, and it equals ca$h. The Town is unable to sustain additional expenses, this is the time that private investment is needed. With an aging demographic, private money is the only viable solution to address this issue. There will need to be incentives offered in order to attract an investor(s), however, smaller tax revenue is better than no tax revenue.

It will be interesting to see how the Town proceeds on this one.


++++

May I suggest that the Supervisor and Town Board wrestle the BNAC Private Account Checkbook away from Americorps hands and use it to pay these expenses! I'm sure the Burchfield Board members won't be any the wiser!!!

LOL

It's really no joke what goes on there, but you have to admit it's funny!

Spirit of Ebenezer
June 1st, 2008, 02:37 PM
There will need to be incentives offered in order to attract an investor(s), however, smaller tax revenue is better than no tax revenue.

Remember the ice rink venture that was planned on Clinton St about 4 yrs. ago. The former Supervisor had stated then that the towns ice rink was deteriorating and long been a money pit. He had a private builder in place ready to build a new facility. Not sure if this was to be a private owned facility or public or how the project would have been funded, but it ended up getting beaten down primarily by a group of concerned tree huggers from Gardenville loyal to the newly elected council member of 2005.

It was probably the best chance the town had at getting a new facility.

Psycho1
June 2nd, 2008, 07:59 AM
Remember the ice rink venture that was planned on Clinton St about 4 yrs. ago.

If memory serves me, the investors in that plan all had close ties to the former Supervisor, which may have been another part of the problem.

Wasn't there also mentioned a rink for the WS Mall site? That would be the optimum place, given the proximity to the thruway, and soon to be two hotels. It could, possibly, jump start other development along Ridge Rd., as well as in the plaza with K-Mart and Tops.

Pumpkinhead
June 2nd, 2008, 09:18 AM
If memory serves me, the investors in that plan all had close ties to the former Supervisor, which may have been another part of the problem.

Wasn't there also mentioned a rink for the WS Mall site? That would be the optimum place, given the proximity to the thruway, and soon to be two hotels. It could, possibly, jump start other development along Ridge Rd., as well as in the plaza with K-Mart and Tops.


It was the TAXPAYERS who fought that project because the developers aka the Town Attorney Tim Greenan wanted the West Seneca TAXPAYERS to float a FORTY MILLION DOLLAR BOND on the project thus leaving the TAXPAYERS to bear the financial risk while the "developers" walked away with the profits. DUH. That was a really great idea!!!! That's why Lancaster turned it down, ECC and the City of Buffalo turned it down, but Spirit of Ebenezer thinks it would have been a great idea!!! Maybe he knows something we don't??!! Or maybe he has close ties to .......... hmmmm?????? Or maybe he was promised a job there?????

The last time we heard from them, the developers said the project would fit on the Seneca Mall site ------ as long as the Town TAXPAYERS would pay for it, they'd be happy to build it there!!!

Spirit of Ebenezer
June 2nd, 2008, 07:09 PM
Spirit of Ebenezer thinks it would have been a great idea!!! Maybe he knows something we don't??!! Or maybe he has close ties to .......... hmmmm?????? Or maybe he was promised a job there?????
I know these issues you mentioned are not what bugged you the most about my post. :rolleyes:

Pumpkinhead
June 2nd, 2008, 09:42 PM
All I can say is that project with a 5,000 seat ice arena plus 4 rinks, all on the public dole, really opened MY eyes to what was going on in this Town. There were only 3 people in West Seneca who were in favor of the project - Tim Greenan, Paul Clark, and Tim Wroblewski - which one are you Spirit????

Psycho1
June 2nd, 2008, 10:26 PM
Tim Greenan, Paul Clark, and Tim Wroblewski

The Three Stooges! I would venture a guess in saying Ralph Lorigi would be in the mix as well.

Spirit of Ebenezer
June 5th, 2008, 10:25 PM
I would venture a guess in saying Ralph Lorigi would be in the mix as well.

I'm guessing it's a typo (?) regarding "Lorigi" ? I saw "him" recently very early one morning. It was sort of odd, since I hadn't expected to see him where I did. I hadn't seen him up close since the days of his parents old realtor office at the corner of Center Rd. and Seneca at Kelsey. Looked like life has treated him well...............Oh Well ? :o

wnyfuture
June 25th, 2008, 04:09 PM
West Seneca travel hockey is a very competitive and very respected youth hockey program. With residency restrictions in place, WS would not be able to produce a team that could compete with the current list of AAA clubs in the EWAHL which they are part of. They compete against teams from Hershey, Pittsburgh, Rochester, Syracuse, Cleveland, as well as the Buffalo Regals and frequently compete in tournaments in Canada.

You likely could not pull 12 kids out of West Seneca in any given birth year good enough to play against any of these teams.

These teams are self funded and run with budgets of $15,000 to $25,000 per year. All costs are picked up by the families of the players on each team as well as sponsors.

If a residency restriction was put in place, West Seneca would have to leave he EWAHL and join the WNYAHL where they would likely downgrade to a AA status.

If the WS rink were to close permanently, the WS teams could continue to operate under the allotted budgets at any number of local rinks.

These teams are not designed to be feeder teams for JV or Varsity teams. In fact, any player serious about a future in hockey understands that High School hockey is a distraction. Split midget seasons are the result of trying to play both AAA and high school hockey. This is what causes our local teams to struggle against full season teams that strictly prohibit playing high school hockey while on those teams.

For the elite talented few, WNY doesn't even offer viable options to play at a level needed for scouting by Division 1 schools. It will not happen playing high school hockey. Many players need to leave the area to play for teams like Little Caesars, Honeybaked, Compuware, Detroit Belle Tire, and prep schools
how come Amherst can do it? only 4 non-residents on their aaa teams but ws can't?

WSWings98
July 25th, 2008, 03:29 AM
3 Amherst residents to every one West Seneca resident is the first thing that jumps out at me.

More money? = more backyard rinks? = more ice time? = better players?

I would suggest that you attend tryouts for West Seneca Travel teams next March. You will then see that there will only be 12 to 15 players that are good enough for the team. In travel hockey, rosters will go short before signing players who would not be able to play at the particular level.

If you want guaranteed placement on a team for residents only then your option is House League. You can get your hockey experience there regardless of talent level. If you are good enough to make the travel team, then you are invited to participate if you wish to foot the bill.

(Net costs per player - not including equipment)
Travel Hockey: approx $3,000-$5,000
House League:$300 to $450

Niagara
July 25th, 2008, 07:23 AM
(Net costs per player - not including equipment)
Travel Hockey: approx $3,000-$5,000
House League:$300 to $450
Hockey is a business. This has gone beyond simple town recreation. Leave the businesses to the businessmen.

be true to yourself
July 28th, 2008, 11:48 PM
I emailed both of the female board members and got no response. Two days and no reply?

From what I heard at the board meeting tonight....parents have been asking questions on the hockey rink for 10 years without response.

Many parents left quite angry, as once again the board is doing nothing.

Talk about respect, none was given to the parents.

Graber stated the town did not want to spend the money on the rink that is why the rink is having issues.....not that he did not know about it.....he chose to do NOTHING ! funny, if his son was still playing, I wonder if his answer would have been the same . Have to love the dog and pony show Graber put on for the town to see... it was sad.

OldTymeRevival
July 28th, 2008, 11:58 PM
From what I heard at the board meeting tonight....parents have been asking questions on the hockey rink for 10 years without response.

Many parents left quite angry, as once again the board is doing nothing.

Talk about respect, none was given to the parents.

Graber stated the town did not want to spend the money on the rink that is why the rink is having issues.....not that he did not know about it.....he chose to do NOTHING ! funny, if his son was still playing, I wonder if his answer would have been the same . Have to love the dog and pony show Graber put on for the town to see... it was sad.

++++

Just remember: He's a small and insignificant man. He may huff, and he may puff, but the house he blows down is his own house of cards! Someday he'll implode and everything will come crashing down around him- like he deserves. He's as nasty a man inside as you see on the outside and folks like that come up short (every pun intended!) in the end!

Protect West Seneca
July 29th, 2008, 12:03 AM
++++

Just remember: He's a small and insignificant man. He may huff, and he may puff, but the house he blows down is his own house of cards! Someday he'll implode and everything will come crashing down around him- like he deserves. He's as nasty a man inside as you see on the outside and folks like that come up short (every pun intended!) in the end!

Hope I am present when it happens. His poor wife sat in the audience, I'm certain she wanted to crawl under her chair !

OldTymeRevival
July 29th, 2008, 12:10 AM
Hope I am present when it happens. His poor wife sat in the audience, I'm certain she wanted to crawl under her chair !


Someone once told me she's Joel Giambra's cousin- does that give you a clue as to her history with Napoleonic men?!

dtwarren
July 29th, 2008, 07:17 AM
From what I heard at the board meeting tonight....parents have been asking questions on the hockey rink for 10 years without response.

Many parents left quite angry, as once again the board is doing nothing.

Talk about respect, none was given to the parents.

Graber stated the town did not want to spend the money on the rink that is why the rink is having issues.....not that he did not know about it.....he chose to do NOTHING ! funny, if his son was still playing, I wonder if his answer would have been the same . Have to love the dog and pony show Graber put on for the town to see... it was sad.


I believe a reason for this was the failed plan for the hockey facility on Clinton that was hatched in 1997.

WNYresident
July 29th, 2008, 08:49 AM
From what I heard at the board meeting tonight....parents have been asking questions on the hockey rink for 10 years without response.

Many parents left quite angry, as once again the board is doing nothing.

Talk about respect, none was given to the parents.

Graber stated the town did not want to spend the money on the rink that is why the rink is having issues.....not that he did not know about it.....he chose to do NOTHING ! funny, if his son was still playing, I wonder if his answer would have been the same . Have to love the dog and pony show Graber put on for the town to see... it was sad.

As far as I know there are commercial rinks the parents can take thier kids to. What is stopping them?

wnyfuture
July 29th, 2008, 09:49 AM
As far as I know there are commercial rinks the parents can take thier kids to. What is stopping them?
There are 7 sheets of ice within 8 miles of the West Seneca Ice Rink. East Aurora is adding another and Holiday Twin Rinks said they would add a 3rd rink if any of the town rinks would close.

wsresident33
July 29th, 2008, 10:16 AM
There is NO ice available at any local facility. It would only take a couple phone calls to figure that out. WS has over 50 hockey teams!! Graber was incorrect in his statement that the hockey assocation has secured ice elsewhere. They haven't. There is no ice available to secure. Teams were picked in March and April. Those teams are full, there really isn't anywhere else to take the 1000 kids that West Seneca has registered for hockey. Maybe that's what's stopping the parents.

The real issue here is opening the town ice rink for this season. If you don't want to have a new facility, great, then tell everyone before they commit to WS for next season. And, there are other groups that use the rink besides the hockey association. There is a sold out Friday public skate for the youth in the community, there are weekend public skates loaded with families and kids. There is a Learn to Skate program, figure skating and a senior skate.

The TOWN owns the ice rink, they sell the ice to those groups, including the town sponsored hockey association. The TOWN should be responsible for the clean up, but according to WP at the meeting, the hockey association has offered to assist in the cost of the clean up. I wonder what the cost would be to refund everyone's deposits if they make the foolish decision to not open the rink.

The town should take care of this season and honor the commitment they made to the kids and their families by opening that rink and then start talking about the future immediately. There is a way to make that rink, or a new rink (think community center) at least a break even, maybe if the Board members could start acting like responsible adults instead of bickering children we could get something done.

wnyfuture
July 29th, 2008, 10:44 AM
There is NO ice available at any local facility. It would only take a couple phone calls to figure that out. WS has over 50 hockey teams!! Graber was incorrect in his statement that the hockey assocation has secured ice elsewhere. They haven't. There is no ice available to secure. Teams were picked in March and April. Those teams are full, there really isn't anywhere else to take the 1000 kids that West Seneca has registered for hockey. Maybe that's what's stopping the parents.

The real issue here is opening the town ice rink for this season. If you don't want to have a new facility, great, then tell everyone before they commit to WS for next season. And, there are other groups that use the rink besides the hockey association. There is a sold out Friday public skate for the youth in the community, there are weekend public skates loaded with families and kids. There is a Learn to Skate program, figure skating and a senior skate.

The TOWN owns the ice rink, they sell the ice to those groups, including the town sponsored hockey association. The TOWN should be responsible for the clean up, but according to WP at the meeting, the hockey association has offered to assist in the cost of the clean up. I wonder what the cost would be to refund everyone's deposits if they make the foolish decision to not open the rink.

The town should take care of this season and honor the commitment they made to the kids and their families by opening that rink and then start talking about the future immediately. There is a way to make that rink, or a new rink (think community center) at least a break even, maybe if the Board members could start acting like responsible adults instead of bickering children we could get something done.
Yes, there is no ice available but let a private company build a rink. Why not have the non-residents that use our facility pick up the tab? The cost to refund everyone's deposit is probably a lot less than fixing the rink! East Aurora is having trouble opening and they are non-profit.

Ice rink is owned by the town, let's sell it to the Wings Travel program filled with kids from buffalo, lewiston, marilla, orchard park, etc. You folks have had the luxury of paying one of the lowest ice per hour rates in the area.

A new rink is not feasible neither is one pad ice rink. Did you know the town association couldn't operate without the town pouring money into it? The town actually pours money into the association to keep cost down.

These numbers probably have cost with the rising cost of energy every year.
In a July 12, 2004 board meeting, it was stated by the former Supervisor, that the costs of the ice rink for utilities and maintenance was between $300,000- $500,000 a year. He also stated in a Sept 20, 2004 board meeting that the town was helping to subsidize the costs for the towns youth hockey program to the tune of about $250,000.

Income
Sponsorship - The rink isn't sponsored by anyone, no ads on the boards = $0
ProShop and Concessions - $1k per month (Sept thru April) = $8000

Let's assume they sell every hour of ice, please note, ice at night is available.
Ice Time - Let's assume $185 since that is what the pepsi center charges, cheektowaga, etc
Weekends - 17 hours of possible ice sold (Saturday and Sunday) 17 * 2 = 34 hours of ice sold
Weekdays - 8 hours per day, 5 times a week =40 hours of ice sold
One Week = 67 hours * 185 = $13690 will be rounded to $14,000.00 for one-week period breakdown. The rink is opened roughly 28 weeks
Ice Time Income = $392,000.00

Proshop = 8000.00
Ice Time Income = $392,000.00
Total = $400,000.00

They do not sell every hour of ice and plus open skates are hour and half and do not always sell out. Now, if we the town sold the ice rink to the Wings for $1- they have to buy insurance, pay for the staff, etc. You will be the hole easily $200k every year or have advanced areans (arena management company) and let them take over the rink and the ice per hour will jump to $250 to $275 hour.

Good Luck, getting kids to play at WS at those rates.

Depew makes it work because - they are considered an outdoor rink, Depew gets State grant money for outdoor rink. Cheektowaga is opened year round. 1 pad rink will never work

wnyfuture
July 29th, 2008, 11:07 AM
The town also has to buy additional ice from Leisure (Private rink in OP/WS) for town house league so the Wings Non-Resident Travel association can at the rink as well.

wsresident33
July 29th, 2008, 11:19 AM
I agree, let a private company build a rink. But we are talking about this year. Have you spoke with anyone from the Hockey Association? I have and I was told that there are more than 2/3 town residents in the program, which includes House and Travel and the house program is twice the size of the travel program. All non-residents do pay more than town residents, and the travel teams pay almost double the fees of the House program because...They are charged more for ice time. I won't be surprised if the cost of refunds and skipping the season reaches close to the amount of the repair. Because of the lack of communication in this town, we may never know.

The town is "subsidizing" the House program which is composed of a majority of town residents. I have not seen anywhere that the town is writing a check to the hockey association. And, I haven't seen any disbursement from the town to the private rinks either. The hockey assocation obtains that ice the same way they do from the town...they buy it at the rate that is given to them. If the town isn't charging enough for ice, then they should raise the rates and charge everyone more. Then people will have a choice if the price is too high for them to skate in West Seneca. Your utility range is so high, it is impossible to determine a true cost for the rink facility.

Maybe the TOWN, the owner of the ice rink, should sell advertising, naming rights, raise the concession / pro shop rates, the cost of public skate, use the rink in the summer for roller hockey, and raise ice rates. It isn't the responsibility of the hockey association or any other user of that rink to clean and maintain it. Maybe the town should take care of the building that they own so that it doesn't come down to 1000 children getting shafted by the town's mismanagement of their property.

Niagara
July 29th, 2008, 06:32 PM
Your utility range is so high, it is impossible to determine a true cost for the rink facility.

Maybe the TOWN, the owner of the ice rink, should sell advertising, naming rights, raise the concession / pro shop rates, the cost of public skate, use the rink in the summer for roller hockey, and raise ice rates. It isn't the responsibility of the hockey association or any other user of that rink to clean and maintain it. Maybe the town should take care of the building that they own so that it doesn't come down to 1000 children getting shafted by the town's mismanagement of their property.

The town needs help in this regard in setting prices, and policy to make it cost neutral, or else the WS Hockey Association will not have a rink to call its own. The handwriting was on the wall years ago, and the Hockey Association ignored it.

Spirit of Ebenezer
July 29th, 2008, 08:41 PM
The handwriting was on the wall years ago, and the Hockey Association ignored it......could you elaborate upon this point ?

Niagara
July 29th, 2008, 10:09 PM
.....could you elaborate upon this point ?


In a July 12, 2004 board meeting, it was stated by the former Supervisor, that the costs of the ice rink for utilities and maintenance was between $300,000- $500,000 a year. He also stated in a Sept 20, 2004 board meeting that the town was helping to subsidize the costs for the towns youth hockey program to the tune of about $250,000.

It was to no one's advantage, least of all the Hockey Association that the town should have to sholder a quarter of a million dollar subsidy in 2004. The amount of subsidy must be much more now because of rising energy costs.
As the poster suggests, it is impossible to digest the true cost of the subsidy because of they way the books are cooked. If there are a 1000 kids, and the subsidy is say $500,000 now, that is $500 dollars a child.

Now that a red flag has been waved, the hockey advocating poster is giving a list of things which could be done to help the problem, but where were the suggestions four or more years ago? He is saying the town is at fault for not mantaining their building. The town is at fault for not doing xyz, while at the same time providing their subsidy. The Hockey Association should have been more concerned about the viability of the ice rink and suggesting a partnering because it impacts them the most. It is hard to have an association without a club house. All his suggestions have merit, but it is not likely that the town was/is going to do any of it without that partnering. Imagine the outcry if the town board had suggested raising rates. Imagine the town board on its own outreaching for sponsors. Imagine the town board raising concession rates. Mean time the clock was ticking.

wsresident33
July 29th, 2008, 10:59 PM
You are very wrong about the hockey assocation not attempting to partner with the town. They have approached the town, via the recreation director, several times in the past years. They have had councilmen speak at their Board meetings, they have asked for improvements and a new rink time and time again. Graber is very wrong about the hockey association not trying to work with the town. The town board has raised the ice rates every year. I seriously question the subsidy amount that is being suggested. I would really like to see any proof of that.

But since the town can't tell you what the rink costs, or what they make or lose on it, I guess we will never know. And furthermore, the hockey association isn't responsible for running the ice rink. They buy ice from the town, the town is responsible for running the ice rink. It may not be right, it may not be fair, but for now, that's the way it is.

I am pro hockey, but I'm more pro kids and the town committed to the kids for the upcoming season when they took everyone's deposit money. Graber admitted he knew there were problems as early as January. Maybe they shouldn't have taken everyone's money if he was going to ignore the problems.

dtwarren
July 30th, 2008, 09:00 AM
I believe the Town was required to conduct competitive bidding on the mold remediation at the Ice Rink. The Supervisor and Town Attorney maintained that competitive bidding was not required because it fell under the emergency exception to the competitive bidding statutes. However, I do not believe it does. There were statements by Town Board members and the public that there have been longstanding maintenance issues at the Ice Rink. That the Ice Rink's ventilation system was known to be inadequate and that this rink was once an outside rink and it was enclosed to make it an indoor rink. There were also issues raised regarding the refrigeration system. Based on this I am not of the opinion that the discovery of surface mold was unforseen, its discovery may have been a surprise but that does not transform it into an emergency.

It also fails the second test of the emergency exception. Since the rink was closed and the health and safety of the public was secured it can be remedied by the exercise of reasonable care.

Under the competitive bidding statute, the emergency must be one "arising out of an accident or other unforeseen occurrence or condition". An emergency has been defined as " '[an] unforeseen combination of circumstances which calls for immediate action' " (Lutzken v City of Rochester, 7 A.D.2d 498, 500), and as "an unforeseen combination of circumstances or the resulting state that calls for immediate action" (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary). "An occurrence or condition is unforeseen when it is not anticipated; when it creates a situation which cannot be remedied by the exercise of reasonable care (Ralph Perry, Inc. v. Metropolitan Cas. Ins. Co., 2 A.D.2d 700, affd. 4 N.Y.2d 983; Daiches v. United States Fid. & Guar. Co., 93 F. 2d 149; when it is fortuitous, Viterbo v Friedlander, 120 U.S. 707, 728)." (Rodin v Director of Purch. of Town of Hempstead, 38 Misc. 2d 362, 365.)

Roberta
July 30th, 2008, 04:07 PM
Back in 2004, I recall that the Hockey Association had done a feasibility study to determine the cost of a double pad facility. I think it was determined that the rink needed major repairs and a second pad was needed, but the current location was not big enough for a second pad. Someone else can probably elaborate with the details...

Maybe it is time to look into some creative ways to get more ice surface in WNY? Hamburg and East Aurora folks want more ice. Is there any possibility of all three towns working together for a large community ice arena? Perhaps County involvement would be possible? Has anyone spoken with Sam Savarino lately? His "mega-rink" was not a bad idea in the right location. He said in a public meeting that the Seneca Mall site was large enough. I guess the problem is, and has been, that there is no politician who has been willing to take this bull by the horns. I can understand the frustration with delaying the repairs, but it does seem like the time has more than come to take a hard look at the big picture for the ice rink.

wnyfuture
August 4th, 2008, 11:00 AM
Hi Everyone~
We are aware that everyone has many questions as to the status of the clean up of the West Seneca Rink. The Hockey Association has been in conversation with the Town Board, but as you know, the issue of the clean up must be voted on this coming Monday, August 4. The Town Board will be holding a working session followed by an emergency Board meeting where they will vote on if they will continue with the repair. Nothing is certain at this time.

Many of you have contacted Board members asking what you can do to help.

First, we need every possible person that we can get to attend the Town Board activities on Monday. We will be meeting in the parking lot of Town Hall at 5:30pm. PLEASE attend with your players, friends, neighbors, grandparents and anyone else you can think of that supports the activities at the rink. Wear jerseys and your West Seneca Hockey clothing. Bring signs showing your support. The more people that are there, the more the Town will realize the importance of this clean up. THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. We are looking for the support of ALL families involved in the hockey program.

Second, take a moment to write the town council people about why the rink cleanup should be completed. Tell them why hockey is important to you, and why this clean up should be completed. We need them to realize the importance of the rink to everyone. Here are the email addresses, which can also be found on the Town’s website:

Town of West Seneca Council Board Members

Wallace C. Piotrowski: wpiotrowski@twsny.org

Vincent J. Graber, Jr.: vgraberjr@verizon.net

Christina Wleklinski Bove: christina_bove@yahoo.com

Sheila M. Meegan: smeegan@twsny.org

Dale F. Clarke: daleclarke@roadrunner.com

If you wish to phone the council board members, you can find their numbers on the website, but we are asking that you email. PLEASE keep in mind that your email may be presented at either the working session or at the Board meeting. We do not need you to threaten the council people, but to focus more on the importance of having the rink open on time and the importance of the rink to you and your family. Keep in mind that we need these people on our side.

Please forward this email to everyone you can!

See you on Monday!

Dick Lynch, President
West Seneca Youth Hockey


Clean up the mold and than next year if the rink makes it through the season, than what? Doesn't the mold clean up cost seem to be a waste of money if the rink needs to be repaired and we the taxpayers don't want to pay 2 million to fix it.

Put that on the ballot - close the rink or pay 2 million plus to fix it. Guess what, that means raise taxes because where else are they going to get 2 million plus from?

WSWings98
August 25th, 2008, 05:39 AM
Clean up the mold and than next year if the rink makes it through the season, than what? Doesn't the mold clean up cost seem to be a waste of money if the rink needs to be repaired and we the taxpayers don't want to pay 2 million to fix it.

Put that on the ballot - close the rink or pay 2 million plus to fix it. Guess what, that means raise taxes because where else are they going to get 2 million plus from?

Well, we could sell the Birchfield park and facilities and shut down the Senior Center to start. How's that sound?

wnyfuture
August 25th, 2008, 02:43 PM
Well, we could sell the Birchfield park and facilities and shut down the Senior Center to start. How's that sound?
Why don't you say how many non residents you have on your AAA 98 wings team? Head Coach is 1, I bet more than 50% are non-residents. Majority of the coaches for WS AAA are non-residents. Let Orchard Park build a rink for Wings, half of their residents play in WS

Why can Amherst AAA compete nationally and they have only 4 nonresidents.

wnyfuture
September 29th, 2008, 05:17 PM
"Supervisor put together a group to look into a new rink/ refurbished rink"

Reading the West Seneca Hockey Association's board meeting minutes from August 2008.

Whose in this group? Whose going to pay for the new or refurbished rink?

Niagara
October 2nd, 2008, 03:11 AM
What happened to the poll. The poll was a WS topic, and should not have been moved.