Obama's Church

[Sock Puppet]

Apparently Obama belongs to a church that seems to worship Africa and blacks as much as God. It is a black separatist church. For real. This information is easily found with a simple search and yet we hear very little from the mainstream media - even though the media has admitted this is all true. And Ron Paul gets flack for an old newsletter?

I think the MSM will hang-on to this information until Obama squares off against the Republican neo-con candidate. Or, if Obama fits their agenda better they may never make it an issue. Just like they all held-back the Ron Paul newsletter story until the New Hampshire primary. Are we supposed to believe that they all missed this old story? The same kabal that has been bashing and/or ignoring Ron Paul since day one?

Video 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6XtEY4nc-4)

Video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aj9Avr3ivc)

His church's website (http://www.tucc.org/about.htm)

[run4it]

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

Looks like the top 3 are main goals of any Christian religion. Adoration, Salvation, and Reconciliation. Tough to find fault there, as a Christian. The 3 most important are the top 3. Only 2 of the goals have anything to do with Africa, and one of them is simply to understand one's history. Absolutely nothing about "worshipping" Africa. Understanding and taking pride in one's history is a big issue for you? Or is it only if one is black that it's a problem?

And we need to understand Obama's views on these. Like any other religious denomination, do most of it's members take literally ever single tenet of the faith?

So needless to say, your characterization that they "seem to worship Africa and blacks as much as God" is, by their own words to which you linked, absolutely untrue. But then again, you knew that, didn't you?

I gotta say though, it's nice that we're finally past the "he's really a muslim" crap.

[Sock Puppet]

Yes, they should preserve their history of being black separatists. I'm sure George Wallace would share your view.

[mesue]

I would accept their vision statement if they had a Book, Chapter and Verse to go along with it.
Whose culture will one be educated in?
Whose economical parity are they interested in?
Are they interested in the historical education of anyone else?
I'm just asking these things because usually a Christian Church lifts up and glorifies the name of Jesus Christ without respect to persons of any race. After all God is not a respecter of persons and says so in his Word

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[run4it]

Where does it say anything about being separatists?

Is it nice to be in the group that makes stuff up with absolutely no basis in order to smear your oponnent? I've never met anyone in that group before...

[Sock Puppet]

Where does it say anything about being separatists?

Is it nice to be in the group that makes stuff up with absolutely no basis in order to smear your oponnent? I've never met anyone in that group before...
It's a racially exclusive theology, They are racially specific in their objectives, and they are warriors for freedom of blacks only.

It wouldn't be wrong to say they are afro-centric, meaning that the matters of blacks come before all. I’m not exactly sure what the “Black Value System” is, but I have a suspicion that whatever it is, it’s not too good for European Americans.

Here is a blog about one of the preacher's sermons titled “Black people! Grow up! Stop helping white people!” (http://camelsnose.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/jesus-lite-and-victimology-at-obamas-still-racist-trinity-church/). Real WWJD type stuff, right?

A commitment to blacks, but not all people isn't racist? Get bent dude.

[Niagara]

It's a racially exclusive theology, They are racially specific in their objectives, and they are warriors for freedom of blacks only.

It wouldn't be wrong to say they are afro-centric, meaning that the matters of blacks come before all. I’m not exactly sure what the “Black Value System” is, but I have a suspicion that whatever it is, it’s not too good for European Americans.

Thanks for the information. When there is a thin legislative, and speech history, other information becomes even more relevent to get insight into a candidate's true beliefs. I think that just as Romney was asked to explain his Mormon Religion, Obama should be asked to explain some of the issues you have brought up.

[Townsfolk]

You really ought to read this so you will know what you are getting in to…

Who is Barack Obama?

1- U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama

2- Born in Honolulu, Hawaii ,
Father: Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black Muslim from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya;
Mother: Ann Dunham, a white atheist from Wichita,Kansas .

Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii . When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced.

Father: Returned to Kenya.
Mother: Married Lolo Soetoro, a radical Muslim from Indonesia.

3- When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia.

4- Obama attended a Muslim school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a Catholic school.

5- Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He Is quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also attended Catholic school."

6- Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this influence was, temporary.
In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya Soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct influence over His son's education.

7- Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, introduced his stepson to Islam.

8- Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta. Wahabism is the radical teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world.

Since it is politically important to be a Christian when seeking Major public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background.

[Velvet Fog]

You really ought to read this so you will know what you are getting in to…

Who is Barack Obama?

1- U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama

2- Born in Honolulu, Hawaii ,
Father: Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black Muslim from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya;
Mother: Ann Dunham, a white atheist from Wichita,Kansas .

Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii . When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced.

Father: Returned to Kenya.
Mother: Married Lolo Soetoro, a radical Muslim from Indonesia.

3- When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocated to Indonesia.

4- Obama attended a Muslim school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a Catholic school.

5- Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He Is quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also attended Catholic school."

6- Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this influence was, temporary.
In reality, the senior Obama returned to Kenya Soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct influence over His son's education.

7- Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham, introduced his stepson to Islam.

8- Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school in Jakarta. Wahabism is the radical teaching that is followed by the Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world.

Since it is politically important to be a Christian when seeking Major public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background.
This is an outright lie--Stop being a sheep----go to
snopes.com

[Timmy]

for the life of me I dont know why anyone would vote for a Obama

he is a liberal
he is going to be a one issue (race) president when this country is swimming in the cauldron of domestic and international crisis
he is half muslim
he refused to say the pledge of allegiance to our country
he demanded to be sworn in on the Koran not the bible

anyone who is voting for him has got to be a stupid monkey as far as Im concerned

[run4it]

for the life of me I dont know why anyone would vote for a Obama

he is a liberal Believe it or not, a lot of people like that!

Is going to be a one issue (race) president when this country is swimming in the cauldron of domestic and international crisis Because he hasn't taken positions on Iraq or health care or anything like that.
he is half muslim Umm...I'm Episcopalian, but my father was Catholic. Does that still make me half RC?
he refused to say the pledge of allegiance to our country Patently False
he demanded to be sworn in on the Koran not the bible Again, patently false. That was Ellison, Senator from MN.

anyone who is voting for him has got to be a stupid monkey as far as Im concerned
if you disagree with him on issues, that's fine. But anyone who won't vote for him for the above reasons is not only stupid, but an ignorant monkey as well. But that's your choice.

[speaker]

for the life of me I dont know why anyone would vote for a Obama

he is a liberal
he is going to be a one issue (race) president when this country is swimming in the cauldron of domestic and international crisis
he is half muslim
he refused to say the pledge of allegiance to our country
he demanded to be sworn in on the Koran not the bible

anyone who is voting for him has got to be a stupid monkey as far as Im concerned

He openly denied all these in the Democratic debate Tuesday night.

These are all campaign tactics, and I have to believe that even you, timmy, don't really believe them. Although, I don't know about that.:D

He is half black, not half muslim.

I'm not voting for Barack Obama. So I'm not campaigning for him with this reply.

[Velvet Fog]

for the life of me I dont know why anyone would vote for a Obama

he is a liberal
he is going to be a one issue (race) president when this country is swimming in the cauldron of domestic and international crisis
he is half muslim
he refused to say the pledge of allegiance to our country
he demanded to be sworn in on the Koran not the bible

anyone who is voting for him has got to be a stupid monkey as far as Im concerned
And your a sheep for believing everything you read or see---see moron in the dictionary.

[mesue]

Obama spent some of his childhood in a mosque. His step father was Muslim. I think he has more knowledge of Islam than most, but that doesn't make him Muslim anymore than sitting in a pew that exalts one race over another makes him Christian.

[Bringthetruth]

Senator Barack Obama has been a member of Chicago's Trinity Church of Christ since 1988.

As a result of Obama's candidacy for president, Trinity Church has come under scrutiny. Critics have accused the church of being racist. Supporters say the congregation is proudly black and with a strong linkage and commitment to its African roots. That's a matter of heritage, they say, not a lack of commitment to being Americans.
The "About Us" page at the church's web site says the church is "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain 'true to our native land,' the mother continent, the cradle of civilization."

It also says that it is a "congregation with a non-negotiable commitment to Africa."

Because of its black emphasis, the church is overwhelmingly black but there is no requirement to be African-American for membership

There are several emails circulating that, in different ways, say that Obama is Muslim.

Obama's middle name is Hussein (named after his father, Barack Hussein Obama, Sr.), his heritage does include Islam, and his grandfather was Muslim. But there does not seem to be a time when either he or his parents were practicing Muslims and Obama regards himself as a Christian. He is a member of Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ where one Sunday morning in 1988 he said walked down the aisle during an alter call by the pastor, Jeremiah Wright.

One of the emails says that Obama used the Koran for his swearing-in ceremony in the Senate, which is not true.

Some of the most definitive information about Obama's faith comes from an interview he did with journalist Cathleen Falsini. She writes that Obama was born in 1961 in Hawaii to a white mother who came from Protestant Midwestern stock but whom Obama describes in his own book as a Christian but "a lonely witness for secular humanism." Obama's father was a black African from the Luo tribe of Kenya. Obama called him agnostic. Obama's grandfather on his father's side was Muslim. When he was six years old, Obama's mother and father divorced and she married an Indonesian man who was a non-practicing Moslem. They moved to Indonesia where Obama said he attended a Roman Catholic school until he was 10. An article Scott Turow on Salon.com in 2004, however, said that while in Indonesia, Obama spent 2 years in a Moslem school then 2 more in the Catholic school.

In terms of actual beliefs, Obama told Falsini that he has a deep faith "...rooted in the Christian tradition." He added, "I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people, that there are values that transcend race or culture, that move us forward, and that there’s an obligation for all of us individually as well as collectively to take responsibility to make those values lived.

" He said his mother "...was a deeply spiritual person and would spend a lot of time talking about values and give me books about the world’s religions and talk to me about them. Her view always was that underlying these religions was a common set of beliefs about how you treat other people and how you aspire to act, not just for yourself but also for the greater good." He also told Falsini, "Alongside my own deep personal faith, I am a follower, as well, of our civic religion. I am a big believer in the separation of church and state. I am a big believer in our constitutional structure." Regarding his conversion experience, Obama said, " It wasn’t an epiphany. It was much more of a gradual process for me.

I know there are some people who fall out. Which is wonderful. God bless them. For me, I think it was just a moment to certify or publicly affirm a growing faith in me." Critics have said that his Christian faith is a political choice to help his image and conceal Islam in his life. Supporters point out that his conversion took place before he ran for any public office. In the Falsini interview he said he reads the Bible, although not as much as he wants to, and that prayer is a part of his daily life but not in the formal sense. "I think I have an ongoing conversation with God.

Throughout the day I’m constantly asking myself questions about what I’m doing, why I am doing it," he said. "The difficult thing about any religion, including Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize and proselytize.

[run4it]

<delete>

[mesue]

Don't confuse being spiritual with being Christian or Muslim. Obama said And yet for all her professed secularism, my mother was in many ways the most spiritually awakened person that I've ever known.
From
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546298,00.html

[run4it]

mees...if you're trying to say that Obama's not a Christian, then just come out and say it.

[mesue]

mees...if you're trying to say that Obama's not a Christian, then just come out and say it.
I can't know his heart. I would have to actually sit down with him and open a Bible. And, still, I couldn't say for sure, it's not my place. I can say that the church he attends is not a Biblical church. I already stated this in post #4.
I would accept their vision statement if they had a Book, Chapter and Verse to go along with it.
Whose culture will one be educated in?
Whose economical parity are they interested in?
Are they interested in the historical education of anyone else?
I'm just asking these things because usually a Christian Church lifts up and glorifies the name of Jesus Christ without respect to persons of any race. After all God is not a respecter of persons and says so in his Word

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[run4it]

I'd say it's a little much of you to judge a church you've never actually been to.

I don't think there's any church that has kept only to the Bible, even if only to address issues which were never even conceived of in biblical times. And most of us forget Leviticus altogether (public stoning, anyone?)

My point being, the Bible is the beginning of Christian wisdom, not the end. I don't think Paul had a lock on God's mind while writing his letters any better than lots of other Christian philosophers. And it is neither my place, nor yours, to judge another's faith.

[mesue]

I'd say it's a little much of you to judge a church you've never actually been to.

...
I've given you Scripture to back my stance. Now, you give me Scripture to back yours.

[run4it]

You want scripture that no one follows or believes in? Like I said, go take a peek through Leviticus.

I assume you buy into the Christian Tenet that there simply no other gods other than the Judeo-Christian God (Yahweh, if you like)? Reconcile that with the fact that other gods are recognized throughout the old testament.

Simply, there is more to Christianity and faith than you can find in one book, or certainly from any one preacher or sect.

[speaker]

I can't know his heart. I would have to actually sit down with him and open a Bible. And, still, I couldn't say for sure, it's not my place. I can say that the church he attends is not a Biblical church. I already stated this in post #4.

mesue--the bible has nothing to do with it! Only for you and those who believe as you do. Why can't you see this?

[mesue]

You want scripture that no one follows or believes in? Like I said, go take a peek through Leviticus.

I assume you buy into the Christian Tenet that there simply no other gods other than the Judeo-Christian God (Yahweh, if you like)? Reconcile that with the fact that other gods are recognized throughout the old testament.

Simply, there is more to Christianity and faith than you can find in one book, or certainly from any one preacher or sect.
Simply, you don't know Scripture, else you would have provided it.
If you are going to say that something is, or is not, Christian, you have to go somewhere. Where did you get your knowledge of Christianity? Where does any one get their knowledge of Christianity? It starts with Scripture. If the Bible were just merely a book, it would be gone by now. Quickly, and without looking, or Googling/searching the web, what book was #1 on the NY Times best seller the first week of August 1992? Is it still in print? Can't remember off the top of your head? Neither can I. My point is, the Bible has been around for a very long time. God said he would preserve his word, and he did. So, yes, I can go by his book, the Bible, to find out what true Christianity is all about.
If, by your standards, I am not to go by any one book, man or faith, where would I start to become a Christian?

[DelawareDistrict]

As much as i dislike Obama due to his collectivist/socialist ideals, he is not a Muslim and never has been. His religious background is completely Christian.

As far as calling him a racist, you need to consider that Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan are good friends of his.

[mesue]

As much as i dislike Obama due to his collectivist/socialist ideals, he is not a Muslim and never has been. His religious background is completely Christian.

As far as calling him a racist, you need to consider that Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan are good friends of his.
His religious background is not completely Christian. He said himself that his mother would take him to various religious worship places
In our household the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology. On Easter or Christmas Day my mother might drag me to church, just as she dragged me to the Buddhist temple, the Chinese New Year celebration, the Shinto shrine, and ancient Hawaiian burial sites.
from
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546298,00.html

[raoul duke]

As much as i dislike Obama due to his collectivist/socialist ideals, he is not a Muslim and never has been. His religious background is completely Christian.
The fact that this is even an issue goes miles to prove how vapid and stupid the voting public is. Not you personally, but the electorate as a whole.

As far as calling him a racist, you need to consider that Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan are good friends of his.
So you're a racist, too? Don't tell me you don't have a couple friends who like trade jokes about black people or mexicans. Probably a few "good" friends. I know I do. Does that make me a racist also?

[speaker]

His religious background is not completely Christian. He said himself that his mother would take him to various religious worship places

from
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546298,00.html

Allright, mesue, I guess it's just your attitude that I quibble with. Your, " I'd have to see down with a bible and him....." type thing as if you were the final authority.

Sorry, this is a futile discussion and I'm getting out.

[mesue]

Allright, mesue, I guess it's just your attitude that I quibble with. Your, " I'd have to see down with a bible and him....." type thing as if you were the final authority.

Sorry, this is a futile discussion and I'm getting out.
That's your perspective, and you are certainly entitled to it.
Mine is that I match Scripture with Scripture. Apples to apples. If you were to tell me that I could make a cozy quilt out of burlap and steel wool, I would have to go and compare what you said to a fabric encyclopedia. If I were to go to a cookbook, I would not find the information I was looking for.

[DelawareDistrict]

The fact that this is even an issue goes miles to prove how vapid and stupid the voting public is. Not you personally, but the electorate as a whole.


So you're a racist, too? Don't tell me you don't have a couple friends who like trade jokes about black people or mexicans. Probably a few "good" friends. I know I do. Does that make me a racist also?

I'm not running for President. Obama's church gave an award to Farrakhan. That doesn't mean Obama agrees, but he has done nothing to condemn the action. Philosophically, I would find it very hard to be a member of a congregation that hands out awards to someone who promotes racism and antisemitism.

[raoul duke]

I'm not running for President. Obama's church gave an award to Farrakhan. That doesn't mean Obama agrees, but he has done nothing to condemn the action. Philosophically, I would find it very hard to be a member of a congregation that hands out awards to someone who promotes racism and antisemitism.

Have you checked the history of your "congregation," should you have one? I'm not trying to bait anyone, but rather point out the absurdity, in this context, of linking something Obama had little control over (unless I'm missing something and he had something to do with giving the award). You could rumage through the history of ever major religion and find awards and accolades being handed to someone most people would find undeserving. How this affects how well he would do the job of president, is beyond me.

[Velvet Fog]

Have you checked the history of your "congregation," should you have one? I'm not trying to bait anyone, but rather point out the absurdity, in this context, of linking something Obama had little control over (unless I'm missing something and he had something to do with giving the award). You could rumage through the history of ever major religion and find awards and accolades being handed to someone most people would find undeserving. How this affects how well he would do the job of president, is beyond me.
I know was forced to be Catholic until my brain fully developed.

[DelawareDistrict]

Have you checked the history of your "congregation," should you have one? I'm not trying to bait anyone, but rather point out the absurdity, in this context, of linking something Obama had little control over (unless I'm missing something and he had something to do with giving the award). You could rumage through the history of ever major religion and find awards and accolades being handed to someone most people would find undeserving. How this affects how well he would do the job of president, is beyond me.
I believe I already indicated how I would react.
Philosophically, I would find it very hard to be a member of a congregation that hands out awards to someone who promotes racism and antisemitism.
In other words, I would switch to another Church. And, if I were running for President I would make it perfectly clear why I switched. I don't think that is an unreasonable standard to hold Obama to.

[raoul duke]

I believe I already indicated how I would react.

In other words, I would switch to another Church. And, if I were running for President I would make it perfectly clear why I switched. I don't think that is an unreasonable standard to hold Obama to.

I don't think it's a relevant standard. Everyone would have to leave or swutch their church if that were the case (except maybe Unitarians, they seem pretty judicious, but I could be wrong).

[Bannister]

I would accept their vision statement if they had a Book, Chapter and Verse to go along with it.
Whose culture will one be educated in?
Whose economical parity are they interested in?
Are they interested in the historical education of anyone else?
I'm just asking these things because usually a Christian Church lifts up and glorifies the name of Jesus Christ without respect to persons of any race. After all God is not a respecter of persons and says so in his Word

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

I don't know you too well Mesue, but from the little I've read, I have a feeling we come from similiar christian backgrounds.

With that said, in this case I look at that mission statement and I think, God uses all different kinds of worship styles for His kingdom. What I see is a church that appears to be involved in social issues as well as christian issues. That is typically something you see alot of in Black churches, which have a long history of applying their faith to social issues.

It wasn't too long ago that God used the Black church to move mountains in this country when it came to segregation. I believe there are many, many born again, bible believing christians who are attending churches with mission statements similiar to this one. Although it's not my cup of tea, I don't doubt God is using them for His purpose.

As for Obama's specific church and him personally, I'd have to get into the pew to hear what they were preaching to know for sure if it was a Bible believing church. The first three mission statements, although a little vague, give me hope. And Obama...again, like you I'd have to meet him.

I think there's just too little information here to know for sure. The one thing I'm sure of is a God could use a church like this and I can't tell from the mission statement that they're unbiblical.

[mesue]

...With that said, in this case I look at that mission statement and I think, God uses all different kinds of worship styles for His kingdom.
...
Therein lies the key phrase "His kingdom" not man's kingdom.
A church is to further the cause of Jesus Christ not any man. We do this through ministry.
The Mission Statement being, taken from http://www.tucc.org/about.htm


The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.
I have no issue with ministering to anyone. I just have an issue with men excluding others in the name of God. I don't care what country you're from. God is not a respecter of persons. If he is no respecter of persons, then who am I or anyone else to exclude people?
I'm so there when I read this statement, until I see statement #4. Then I have to go back to #1 and ask "Who are they adoring?" #2 "Who is salvation for?" and in light of statement #4 "Who, then, cannot be saved?" and #3 "Who's reconciliation?"
Christianity is not about man, it's all about the LORD Jesus Christ. This vision statement makes it about man. If we may be of a similar background, then you know John 3:16-17. It is the crux of the gospel
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
"For God so loved the world ..." That's the whole world, anybody, including those in the USA and Africa. Not excluding everyone except those that favor Africa or Africa itself. Am I not allowed to worship the LORD Jesus Christ in this church if my burden isn't for the Africans but for Russia or China? That's not Biblical and yet, in this church it is "non-negotiable". This is a form of legalism that the Bible clearly preaches against. What did Jesus say?
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
"Go ye therefore and teach ALL nations..." He never made a list of nations, He said all. This includes the USA and Africa and excludes no nation. That's the problem I have.

[Bringthetruth]

I can't know his heart. I would have to actually sit down with him and open a Bible. And, still, I couldn't say for sure, it's not my place. I can say that the church he attends is not a Biblical church. I already stated this in post #4.


Mesue,because of its black emphasis, the church is overwhelmingly black but there is no requirement to be African-American for membership.