garbage fees

[WNYresident]

City Mouse read this:

A 4 percent increase in residential property taxes and a 20 percent increase in the garbage user fee. Masiello recommended both increases in his original spending plan. The user fee increase was narrowly approved in a 5-4 vote.

Remember when the unions or union members stated if we privatized? THe private business would bid low to get the job and then "BONE" the city and raise the price. I noticed it didn't take a private business to raise thier prices 20% to pick up garbage.

So... Explain to us how the garbage division "Business" needs to raise thier rate 20%? Are they just taking this extra money above your budgets and using it in other places?

[citymouse]

It is still the best value around. City residents pay about 140.00 a year what does Amherst or the town of hamburg pay?

[WNYresident]

Does anyone know what the garbage pickup fee is in thier town? I'm just curious.. Did the buffalo garbage pick up business really have a cost increase of 20%? or is buffalo just increasing the cost to make it profitable to spend that money somewhere else? I notice city mouse didn't give a long response.

It is still the best value around.

We are un-educated readers reguarding garbage pick up. :) I don't see a lot of value for the amount of money we must pay for taxes in NYS/WNY.

Inform us with facts. What is the "garbage pick" up division real yearly budget. That's the part they are increasing the cost to do. To pick up the garbage.

Lets say $10,000,000 a year is generated in revenue from garbage pickup fees. A 20% increase would generate $2,000,000 more. I would like to know where the $2,000,000 is going. To offset some patronage in other departments?

Citymouse i KNOW your not a patronage worker. You know exactly what i'm talking about on the other hand. You know, like the people they hire at the erie county water authority as i'm informed that really don't add any value to the community.

Is the new money going for new trucks/equipment? or to offset labor/health/bene cost increases in other departments.

I still believe a worker/politician should be given a FLAT salary. I do not mean eliminate overtime. I mean retirement and health cost should be paid for by the employee in reguards to the acutal cost increase from date of contract.

We only budget a set amount for our services, not an open ended cost increase contract like they have now. We gotta get rid of the NO LAYOFF CLAUSES.. THe pinhead who signed that into the contract should be tared and feathered.

The employee elects which health insurance/retirement type package they can afford out of thier own pay check. Even if you paid a garbage man $35,000 a year versus $30000, you let them pick how they spend thier $5,000 extra pay. THe tax payer in the long run would know though what the operation cost is period.

Completely un-hooked from the tax payer. They can pick the cheap insurance or the gold plated cosmetic surgery included insurance if they wanted to. IF their health costs increases it doesn't effect us, if effects them. IF the cost goes up they have to pay or lower thier coverage like EVERYONE else really does. OR elect to go without.

We would be able to budget much more easier and run WNY much more efficient. We wouldn't be blind sided by unforseen cost increases. Remember when it goes up for governmental workers it also going up for us, the people who pay the taxes.

My own property taxes are going up hundreds of dollars this year. Those increases could of went to offset my health insurance cost increases. BUT noooooo, you have to take my wealth from me to keep your standard of living the same while lowering mine. REmemeber it's not like I go to the money tree in the back of my yard and just pick off a few extra hundred dollars when needed.

It's bad enough we need to cover our cost increases more or less thiers.

THe worse part is the taxes are keeping more people from moving into these region and it's even forcing them to move. The less people in the area the fewer clients my own company can deal with. Plus, by taking my clients money in the form of ever increasing tax cost that leaves them less money to spend with me. I sound selfish don't I. :) Hopefully no arrogant.

SO in the long run you got us paying for your cost increases while the tax increases chases away our clients. Do you politicians and government employees ever look at it that way?

So you are charging 20% more to pick up the garbage. How do you plan to take our money and spend the extra 20% you are charging.

[citymouse]

Garbage pick up is a fact of life.
What else are you going to do with it? Just because there are a number of private companies doing it dosen't mean municipalities should be out of the business.
Private firms are there for one reason. to make a profit. Nothing wrong with that. But if you can do it just as cheaply(and Buffalo does) or cheaper then what is the problem.
Alot of towns that have a tax base and don't have so many tax exempt properties as Buffalo don't have a user fee it is part of the general fund.
That doesn't work in Buffalo, too many tax exempt properties were given the service. The user fee eliminated that problem.
Now everyone who gets thier garbage picked up pays for the service. Was that so wrong for the city to do that?
Yes, Buffalo has made some mistakes in the way service was provided. It seems they have rectified those problems. I don't hear anyone complaining about the service, only about the fee.
From what I am told Hamburg, for example , has a choice of one of two private companies. They both charge about the same I am not sure of how much they charge, but I know it is more than two hundred a year. With the increase buffalo residents will pay about $140.00.

[citymouse]

I agree somewhat with what you say. At this point, however, what would you do with the people that are vested in the state system. After all, the system maintains itself I don't know how the city can say they are getting hit with increased pension costs when thier contributions have not changed.
As far as medical, the union that represents the sanitation workers has been working for years to lower medical costs and have brought the costs down considerably and are in the process of doing that rifght now.
As I have explained before the fee is enough to main tain the pickup, but I don't think it stands alone. The revenue generated might go into the general fund.
Is the increase nessacary? I don't know but I can gaurantee you it isn't being implemented to improve or even maintain service. I think it is just another way to get some badly needed cash from the tax exempts. The increase in property tax dosen't affect them. The fee increase hits everybody.

[WNYresident]

Garbage pick up is a fact of life.
What else are you going to do with it? Just because there are a number of private companies doing it dosen't mean municipalities should be out of the business.



Did i mention that we should eliminate garbage pickup? I looked and i can't find that i stated we should eliminate garbage pickup.

[WNYresident]

From what I am told Hamburg, for example , has a choice of one of two private companies. They both charge about the same I am not sure of how much they charge, but I know it is more than two hundred a year. With the increase buffalo residents will pay about $140.00.


YOu seem to hint that Buffalo does it cheaper or for the same fees but you dont know exactly what the other places charge. What do they include in thier services? Does anyone reason this know what the cost per user is in thier own town other than buffalo. :)

[WNYresident]

I think it is just another way to get some badly needed cash from the tax exempts. The increase in property tax dosen't affect them. The fee increase hits everybody.


So they are illegially taxing a tax exempt through a back door. If the money ends up in the general fund then it was a tax or they are lying what the money is being used for. If it's a garbage pickup fee i expect it to be used for garbage pickup, nothing more. I mean if they need new shinny garbage trucks etc buy them, but other than that it stays in the garbage department.

Otherwise it's a business which should be subject to income TAXES like every other business. I never thought about it this way, government unions are like tax exempt businesses. THey don't pay income tax do they. I know the employees do pay thier payroll/income tax, but the actual union of the business doesn't.

[citymouse]

They don't need shinny trucks, just ones that are reliable.
You try to find out where the user fee goes, I can't.
i just know what they charge is less than competative. I go in everyday and do my job and it puts food on the table. I am happy doing it , feel I am not boning anyone because I do work for a living and give my all.
What they do with the money they collect is a problem they have to deal with.

[WNYresident]

City mouse I dont think once i said you were over paid did i? You gave a base salary and when i thought about it, it didn't sound that bad. There are years i make much more than your basic salary and other years less, it's business.

NOW if you guys are working 4 hours and leaving or boning us on over time then you are over paid. $30,000 a year to pick up garbage in all weather conditions 8 hours a day with reasonable rest breaks isn't bad. AND no 4 hours breaks :) I'm comparing this to how i work which is much harder than most. I can't expect people to work the amount of hours I do seeing it's my choice to do so. BUT i do expect people to work for the money thney earn, not what they think they are entitled to. Nobody is entitled to anything, you earn it.

[Deerhunter]

WNY, do you have a problem with those guys making 100,000 a yr or more watching our counties criminals. The county purposely understaffs the holding center, to avoid paying benies . They have been doing it for yrs. You seem to mention OT alot, do you have a problem with them too ? Even if , in the end, it is cheaper for the county to pay the OT ? I don't know this for a fact, but from most of the guys I have talked with, the average guy down there knocks down 80k. They are forced to work it, leaving isn't an option. Do you begrudge them as you do Cops and Garbagemen that take time away from their families to work OT ?

[WNYresident]

WNY, do you have a problem with those guys making 100,000 a yr or more watching our counties criminals

Because I know what it takes to make $100,000 and watching how some people work, the 40 hours are not worth $100,000 a year.

Remember someone pays for that $100,000 a year salary including you seeing you pay taxes also. Plus i know there are people that will do what they do for a $100,000 a year for less. I'm frugal and don't need to pay more for a service than I need to.

No different when you run to a walmart versus a mom and pop store that might be more expensive. Why do you look for the best deal on products or services? Do you frown on those mom and pops business making more on thier product than a walmart? I jsut don't need to pay more for a service than i need to, plain and simple.

They have been doing it for yrs. You seem to mention OT alot, do you have a problem with them too ?

I do when the overtime is do to a non-qualification of the worker or basicly padding a time card. I had a first hand experience about a overtime abuse. $32,000 in over time agaisnt a $60,000 salary. It was for a computer admin position.

THe only way that person could of earned that much overtime was to basically work 60 or more hours a week for a year. I was called in when he couldn't fix what was needed. He just isn't qualified for the position. He'd put the time in but his time wasn't worth the money they were paying him. This is a desk job, not like an emergency position or something on that order.

Remember you and I are paying the bill. We should not reward someone not qualified for a position with overtime because they are slow or just don't know what they are doing.

You replace them with a more qualified people. I think overtime is great, but i dont believe overtime should be accumilated against retirement and the employee has to have a reason for getting overtime. I understand bad weather work, emergencies etc.

Is it rumor that some police just LOVE lots of over time the last 3 years before thier retirement? Why? it pads thier retirement benefits. Sort of leaves the door open for abuse in my opinion.

I know someone who monitors hundreds of computers from 9-5 at $65,000 a year, but this one person in question can't monitor about 80 - 90 computers for $60,000?

According to employees that work with him, there have been self inflicted mistakes which took hours to correct. IF you make many mistakes you shouldn't be paid to fix your mistakes in the first place.

They could hire an outside consultant to do what he does for way less in my opinion. Even other employees where he works complain about his overtime and lack of qualification of the position.

Deerhunter your a police officer and know how people are. I'm not happy with questionable overtime not overtime in general.

[WNYresident]

Do you begrudge them as you do Cops and Garbagemen that take time away from their families to work OT ?

You know I don't. But how do you explain one officer collecting $30,000 or more in overtime. If you have more than two officers doing so then that means you need another body. My opinion is you don't have people qualified in schedualing and manhour labor practices when you see people getting $1000's in overtime.

[WNYresident]

Back to deerhunter.

How would you like to be walking into bestbuy for your new TV but someone at the doors says, "You can't shop here you have to go to mom and pop electronics". bestbuy has the tv you want for $2000 but mom and pop electronics has it for $2400. THey are both going to load your tv into your car and that's about it.

THe guys at bestbuy are making $10 per hour but the guys at mom and pops electronics get $15 an hour. Would you say ok, i'll spend $2400 instead? No you would say hey, thats stupid, I want to pay $2000. No different when we can replace those $100,000 a year guys with $60,000 a year guys.

[citymouse]

The situation in question is not only the holding center guards, yes they are forced to cover extra shifts even if they don't want to they have to stay untilrelived it is part of the job, it;s in the contract ( not every union contract item favors the worker).
Many are making close to or over one hundred thousand a year, but it is not by choice, the county deliberatley understaffs.
Now the same is happeneing in the city with the report techs.
They laid them off and are forcing the remainder to work over time even if they don't want it. It's manditory.
How can you criticze the worker when the city and county force it?

[WNYresident]

the county deliberatley understaffs.

Why would the county understaff?

[taxpayer]

Who knows?, ...the hospital and the Home and Infirmary are examples. They are so short CNA's at the Home that as soon as they train new people, they mandate them. Then the new trained CNA's see that this isnt for them and they go somewhere else to work. This administration would rather pay the overtime than pay the benefits to an employee. Talk to the guys in the laundry at the hospital as well.

[citymouse]

In the case of the police report techs, the control board insisted on manpower cuts in the budget. The city cut building inspectors but recinded and cut police reporttechs instead, all women ,all paid much less then inspectors.
Now they are refusing to allow the ones that are left vacation time and are forcing them to work overtime because of the layoffs. It is actually costing more.
In the case of the holding center, I think it is cheaper for the county to force overtime then to hire more guards.

[Deerhunter]

An arrest the other night took me 5 hrs, 1/2 my shift. Their shortsightedness in laying off the RT's has caused a backlog at Central Booking. Next time I make an arrest, I am going to drop the folder off and head up to Chippewa and grab somthing to eat. Whoever called for cutting the RT's demonstrated a complete lack of foresight. And when the report comes out about OT in the BPD, I can assure you 90% is paying the RT's as a result of the cutbacks. They are forcing a Cop to work the desk, so instead of a 30k a yr. RT, they are taking a 60k Cop off the street to answer the phones. Pathetic.

[WNYresident]

So in order to save some money why don't they lower all the police that are making 60k or more a few thousand in salary and hire more RT's?

[Deerhunter]

I'll propose it at the next Union meeting, God , why didn't I think of that ?

[WNYresident]

You think it's stupid it called being smart. You have to learn to give up a little once in a while. I don't mean giving up 1 15 minute break a month. I mean giving up something that counts.

[Deerhunter]

it was somthing called a partner. And what did we get in return...a wage freeze. Save your sermon.

[citymouse]

You could give them back anything they ask for and you still won't grt those reprot techs back. It would be admitting they were wrong, They are never wrong.

[WNYresident]

They are always almost always wrong in hidesight. When was the last time you were able to say "that politician had a good idea" from the local group we have in politics?

[citymouse]

I only know what I se and I see a little going on near the small boat harbor. It seems the assembly representative in the area thought it was counter productive to wait for a big ticket item on his section of the water front and took it upon himself to do something.
I guess he figured something small is better than nothing and he put a board walk, fishing pier and free launch site for wave runners or jet skis or watever they call them. Wind surfers use it too.
Actually it looks very nice.
Maybe it will inspire the rest to do something. HA!

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Does anyone know what the garbage pickup fee is in thier town? I'm just curious.. Did the buffalo garbage pick up business really have a cost increase of 20%? or is buffalo just increasing the cost to make it profitable to spend that money somewhere else? I notice city mouse didn't give a long response.

Amherst is more, by about $100, if I recall correctly.

Lets say $10,000,000 a year is generated in revenue from garbage pickup fees. A 20% increase would generate $2,000,000 more. I would like to know where the $2,000,000 is going. To offset some patronage in other departments?

That and into the City's General Fund, along with moneys raised by all the other departments. Want a Birth Certificate? Used to be a couple of bucks, what is it now, $25?

[tomac]

Originally posted by citymouse
I agree somewhat with what you say. At this point, however, what would you do with the people that are vested in the state system. After all, the system maintains itself I don't know how the city can say they are getting hit with increased pension costs when thier contributions have not changed.

Because the politicians want to have the taxpayers focus their outrage on the workers rather than where it really belongs - right in their laps!

[tomac]

Originally posted by WNYresident
Why would the county understaff?

Because they feel that it's cheaper to pay you an additional $20,000 per year in OT than hire another worker for that $20,000 (entry level) PLUS health and pension, which are currently mandated by contract.

[absolivious]

Originally posted by tomac
Does anyone know what the garbage pickup fee is in thier town? I'm just curious...

Amherst is more, by about $100, if I recall correctly.

That and into the City's General Fund, along with moneys raised by all the other departments. Want a Birth Certificate? Used to be a couple of bucks, what is it now, $25?
The current Garbage District fee in Amherst is exactly $184.56 for each participating* residence.
(*condos etc. are by private contractor)

[tomac]

Originally posted by absolivious
The current Garbage District fee in Amherst is exactly $184.56 for each participating* residence.
(*condos etc. are by private contractor)

That's right, I was in error. That's the last time I try to remember something off the top of my pointy head. :rolleyes:

When we first moved here ('87), we paid $25 per quarter to Joe Ball for pickup, about 1990, the town started adding it in the taxes and contracted out via bid. Pickup includes garbage and recycle; bulk pickup is done by Town Highway forces.

[citymouse]

It makes buffalo look like a bargin at $150.00.
According to city hall complaints about garbage are down to virtually nothing.Of course people are not happy about the "fee" but again it is the only way to hit the tax exempts to pay thier own way. There is an awful lot of tax exempt property in Buffalo.
I think some one should request an audit of the user fee budget to see if the twenty dollar increase is justified.
I don't see what the increase would cover. Overtime in the department is down to next to nothing, They have not bought any new equipment in over three years, and worker's wages are frozen. Why the increase?

[absolivious]

Originally posted by citymouse
It makes buffalo look like a bargin at $150.00.
According to city hall complaints about garbage are down to virtually nothing.Of course people are not happy about the "fee" but again it is the only way to hit the tax exempts to pay thier own way. There is an awful lot of tax exempt property in Buffalo.
I think some one should request an audit of the user fee budget to see if the twenty dollar increase is justified.
I don't see what the increase would cover. Overtime in the department is down to next to nothing, They have not bought any new equipment in over three years, and worker's wages are frozen. Why the increase?

Aren't the tax exempts "service exempt" too?

In Amherst I believe they (all schools, churches, volunteer fire cos, etc.) are treated like commercial properties, apartments, condos, etc. and must contract privately for their own garbage collection.

[citymouse]

You are partly right, except that in Buffalo if it is at the curb it has to be picked up. A resident does not have a choice of a private. A business or exempt does but he must show prove of a private contract or he will be billed by the city.